PETITION: PLEASE CHANGE THE INFINITE AMMO DESIGN

[Moatilliatta]

... or even NOLF which had masses of ammo but not for all weapons.

That is essentially the same as AP. Do remember that AP has unlimited ammo for most weapons, not all of them.

 

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that masses might as well equal unlimited and then you have AP.

Edited June 2, 2008 by Moatilliatta

[Pidesco]

Didn't they specifically mention that only certain, very powerful weapons would have limited ammo in AP? That's not the same as having a puny pistol with limited ammo.

[Moatilliatta]

I was just commenting on the description.

[mkreku]

System Shock would be the best example, I guess..

I honestly don't remember, but are you referring to the original System Shock because System Shock 2 definitely didn't have unlimited anything?

 

Anyhow, when I think of Alpha Protocol, I think of RPG's (not the weapon, you nuts). Therefore, comparing it to Halo or NOLF is a bit pointless. I would personally compare it to the great RPG's I've played that also used real life conteporary weapons (or at least somewhat realistic weapons). I'm thinking Jagged Alliance 2 (limited), Deus Ex (limited), Wasteland (extremely limited), Fallout & Fallout 2 (limited) and so on. These are some of my all-time favourites we're talking about so hearing about how they're dumbing stuff down (what Rorie & Co refers to as "streamlining") is really disheartening.

 

Game isn't finished yet though, maybe this isn't a finalized decision?

[Andrej]

I'll sign the petition, I prefer scrounging/collecting/looting ammo to just having an unlimited supply of it.

 

Ammo's really more of an issue in real life where you fire away 120 rounds under a minute flat, realizing those were your only four magazines and now you're effed. As most combat in games tend to be at 3-15 meters, not to mention you just point and click, ammo is usually quite abundant (in any game that has a semblance of realistic damage from firearms).

Edited June 2, 2008 by Andrej

[Xard]

Wow, support for this was even more overwhelming than I expected

[Pidesco]

System Shock would be the best example, I guess..

I honestly don't remember, but are you referring to the original System Shock because System Shock 2 definitely didn't have unlimited anything?

 

Anyhow, when I think of Alpha Protocol, I think of RPG's (not the weapon, you nuts). Therefore, comparing it to Halo or NOLF is a bit pointless. I would personally compare it to the great RPG's I've played that also used real life conteporary weapons (or at least somewhat realistic weapons). I'm thinking Jagged Alliance 2 (limited), Deus Ex (limited), Wasteland (extremely limited), Fallout & Fallout 2 (limited) and so on. These are some of my all-time favourites we're talking about so hearing about how they're dumbing stuff down (what Rorie & Co refers to as "streamlining") is really disheartening.

 

Game isn't finished yet though, maybe this isn't a finalized decision?

 

I was actually thinking of SS2 but the first one also had a good use of limited ammo.

[Pop]

Jagged Alliance 2 (limited), Deus Ex (limited), Fallout & Fallout 2 (limited)

I've played all of these games multiple times and have never run out of ammo, except in those cases where the weapon is "special" and designed to be used only in extreme circumstances, like the rocket rifle in JA2 (were designers retarded back then?) or the plasma cannon in Deus Ex, or the... Ruger, was it? In Fallout. You only ran out of ammo in Deus Ex or Fallout if you relied exclusively on one weapon, and in most cases not even then. Only if you chose a weapon that was meant to be scarce. I don't see how you can make the argument that scarcity of ammo adds to a game when all the games you mention only have scarcity if you strictly adhere to an unusual style of play. A normal person running through Deus Ex or Fallout will never ever run out of 10mm ammo.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Quick question:

 

If you have unlimited ammo, why bother using all the karate moves you'll be learning?

 

 

EDIT: Besides stealth, but silenced guns can do that too.

Edited June 2, 2008 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[Nick_i_am]

Unlimited ammo doesn't mean you'll always have a gun. That's even before we get onto the idea of deadly force not always being necessary.

[Tale]

I defy you to show me a situation where deadly force is not only necessary, but also not wholly appropriate. In either games or life. Just imagine if you had infinite ammo while waiting in line at the DMV!

Edited June 2, 2008 by Tale

[Matthew Rorie]

The design team has decided to scrap all the work on Alpha Protocol and turn it into a top-down shmup. Thus, infinite ammo.

 

Seriously, though, I wouldn't make a tempest in a teapot about all this just yet. Every dev team has to find some way to balance realism and fun, and I think we can all agree that the latter part of that equation is the more important when it comes to a game. Part of that process is trying out new stuff and game concepts. Things are still being worked on, obviously; the game isn't coming out until next year.

 

I can confirm that weapons do need to be reloaded, and that there are other resources that will be limited, including, in some cases, ammo. So I wouldn't pile on too much until we get more specific with the game mechanics. There'll be a lot more info coming down the pipe in the next few months, but for now, just keep an open mind.

 

Oh, and please don't post your topics in all capital letters...

[Xard]

Oh, and please don't post your topics in all capital letters...

 

It does its job which is catching attention

[kirottu]

Oh, and please don't post your topics in all capital letters...

 

But some letters just are bigger than other letters and it would racist not to use them simply, because they are big.

Edited June 2, 2008 by kirottu

[Pidesco]

Every dev team has to find some way to balance realism and fun

 

I take issue with this sentence. fun is very much a relative concept. Some people find exceedingly deep, historical TBS games fun, many find blasting aliens in Halo the ultimate fun experience, others find sneaking around without killing anyone to steal their stuff fun, a few enjoy managing virtual democracies in game form, others still find talking freakish, big eyed, big breasted ladies with multicoloured hair into undressing themselves fun. Fun is in the brain of the enjoyer, to make a horrible twist on an old expression.

 

What every dev team has to find is a way to balance the game they want to make, with the game their target audience wants to play. As such, it's really a question of what kind of audience you're targeting, and how large do you need that audience to be so that the game you are developing can pull a profit.

[Slowtrain]

I can confirm that weapons do need to be reloaded,

 

 

OK thank you, that is something at least. More than DX:IW had anyway. lol.

 

Every dev team has to find some way to balance realism and fun,

 

 

eh, I'm probably in the minority when I put forth the following amazing concept: sometimes realism is fun. A lot of times actually.

Edited June 2, 2008 by CrashGirl

[Nick_i_am]

I defy you to show me a situation where deadly force is not only necessary, but also not wholly appropriate. In either games or life. Just imagine if you had infinite ammo while waiting in line at the DMV!

 

Can't torture a dead guy, duh.

 

eh, I'm probably in the minority when I put forth the following amazing concept: sometimes realism is fun. A lot of times actually.

 

while there's a sense in which I agree with you, there's a double issue.

 

1) Realism is not nearly as conductive to fun in console games due to limited controls (flight simulator X on 360? hahaha) as it is on the PC. Just look at Steel Battalion, one of the only good 'simulators' ever released for a console, and it came with its own control deck.

 

2) all 5 of your listed games are very limited in terms of their realism. Sure, you can say they all have finite ammo (save for Xcom laser rifles I guess), but I don't see Operation Flashpoint, I don't see Combat Flight Simulator, I don't see Close Combat, which leads me to belive that what you actually want from games isn't 'realism' but a sembelence of reality, which points right back to point 1 in that sembelences of reality are already being massively limited by console controls.

 

Don't get me wrong, one of my favorate PC shooters of all time was an MP only game called Red Orchestra where you had to manually rebolt your gun between each shot, but there is a place for this kind of coolness and it's not on consoles. Which is a sad side-effect of the death-like state of PC gaming at the moment.

Edited June 2, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[Matthew Rorie]

Well I didn't mean to imply that realism and fun are mutually exclusive, obviously.

[Slowtrain]

Well I didn't mean to imply that realism and fun are mutually exclusive, obviously.

 

 

That wasn't actually directed at you and Obsidian per se. I just used your comments as a basis for my own idle comment.

 

Thank you for responding though. That was very nice.

[Gorgon]

No top down shooter worth anything has infinite ammo, non sequitor

[mkreku]

I've played all of these games multiple times and have never run out of ammo, except in those cases where the weapon is "special" and designed to be used only in extreme circumstances, like the rocket rifle in JA2 (were designers retarded back then?) or the plasma cannon in Deus Ex, or the... Ruger, was it? In Fallout. You only ran out of ammo in Deus Ex or Fallout if you relied exclusively on one weapon, and in most cases not even then. Only if you chose a weapon that was meant to be scarce. I don't see how you can make the argument that scarcity of ammo adds to a game when all the games you mention only have scarcity if you strictly adhere to an unusual style of play. A normal person running through Deus Ex or Fallout will never ever run out of 10mm ammo.

I agree. I also never ran out of medpacks or power cells in Deus Ex. Or health thingies in Jagged Alliance 2. Or stimpacks in Fallout. Or health potions in every other generic RPG I've ever played, including my beloved Gothic series. What does your line of logic tell you about that?

 

Naturally, not all weapons should be ammunition limited, but that's so obvious I never actually thought I had to spell it out for anyone. Yes, it's the top-end, unique and interesting (some might call them overpowered) weapons that should be ammo limited, not the 10mm starting pistol (that most people drop after the first battle anyhow).

 

Also, since this game plays out in a contemporary setting with locations all over the world, it would be quite natural having problems finding Dragunov ammo in the US, for example. Or Desert Eagle ammo in Moscow. Russia does not follow NATO ammunition standards.

[Cycloneman]

Quick question:

 

If you have unlimited ammo, why bother using all the karate moves you'll be learning?

You might want to avoid killing people, or you might like the unarmed mechanic more, or you might want to be able to fight in close combat well (a gun is not a melee weapon), and there's always the possibility that melee combat will have other advantages over shooting folks (like it's even quieter than a silenced pistol or something).

Edited June 3, 2008 by Cycloneman

[Pop]

I agree. I also never ran out of medpacks or power cells in Deus Ex. Or health thingies in Jagged Alliance 2. Or stimpacks in Fallout. Or health potions in every other generic RPG I've ever played, including my beloved Gothic series. What does your line of logic tell you about that?

That compulsive resource management is not a necessary or sufficient element of a good game, even an RPG.

 

Rorrrrrrrrrrie, tell us about this Mitsoda deal. Did the mag get it wrong or is he off the case?

[Gorgon]

If it's a spy game you might get frisked before being let through and have to rely on what you can find, a la hitman.

[Patrick K Mills]

This is partially my call and I'm willing to fight to get it changed, but first you must defeat me in a steel cage match AND buy me a a 7-series.

 

In all seriousness, you'll have to trust us on this. We're RPG gamers too and we all played Invisible War and know very well why it stunk (though you'd probably disagree with me.) I've been playing our game a lot today, mostly because I can't figure out why one of my levels is broken, and I'm actually having a lot of fun. If any of you have ever worked in game development you know that's saying a lot.

 

And I'm not easy to please, I'm only slightly less nitpicky than, say, Saint Proverbius.