"Has US abstinence policy failed?"

[Kelverin]

So you contest that abstinence does not constitute effective sex-ed,

I guarantee someone will not get pregnant or get a STD if the do not have sex. There is more to sex ed than just abstinence however, education is important and I still believe it is up to the parent to teach their child, however you have to be careful with how you go about it, I also do not think condoms should be given out to school children like candy. Speaking from personal experience, not only did I have sex education in school, but was given condoms by my folks as well, I still ****ed everything that moved without protection and got girls pregnant, took them to get abortions.....so how effective was it? For me, not much.

that creationalism is a humbug science

Is this taught in schools? It was not when I went, granted that was a long time ago.

and that the division of church and state in a multicultural society makes it a bad idea to have the kids recite Christian prayers?

Do they recite Christian prayers in in public schools? The only problems people had with the pledge of allegiance was the line "one nation under god" Sorry I do not see anything wrong with the line, look at the money printed by the federal government, In God We Trust.

 

I would still like to see direct correlation between the rise in STD and abestinence education. The STD rate has been rising for a long time now, before the US abstinence policy was even started.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Where is the evidence that the "abstinence policy" is the reason for the increase in STD?

 

There are such studies, and a recent congressional investigation found that these programs were deliberately spreading false information within the schools. Not only has this unethical practise blurred the lines between religion and science, but there is a general consensus that these so called "sex education programs" -although they should be known as sex uneducation programs and will be for the reminder of this posting- have actually caused a rise in risky sexual practises and teen pregnancies. Think about it, if the young adults are going to have sex anyways, as numerous studies have showed that the students in the "uneducation programs" are just as likely, if not more likely, to have intercourse or another form of sexual interaction, would you rather they know about sexually transmitted diseases and birth-control, or would you prefer them to believe that condoms cause AIDs and masturbation will cause cancer? ****, these programs even support the misguided "abstinence "virginity" pledges" - things that, while marginally helpful in preventing "regular" sexual intercourse, raised the likelihood that the students would engage in unprotected anal and/or oral sex to avoid breaking the "pledge." We must top the uneducation and brainwashing of America's children!

 

Resources:

http://oversight.house.gov/Documents/20041...02153-50247.pdf

http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/publication...tabstinence.pdf

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8470845/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...3-2004Dec1.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7041301003.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9504871/

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/...23/feature.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/28/opinion/28sat1.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/...=Health_3976972

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080423/sc_nm/abstinence_usa_dc

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/health/06birth.html

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...I still ****ed everything that moved without protection and got girls pregnant, took them to get abortions.....so how effective was it? For me, not much.

 

Heh, should have used protection - although you did the correct thing by helping with the abortions.

 

Is this taught in schools? It was not when I went, granted that was a long time ago.

 

Intelligent design tried to get in, and it is just another brand of creationism.

 

Do they recite Christian prayers in in public schools?

 

Students are free to do so as long as it does not interfere with the other students - only mandatory prayer was deemed unconstitutional.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Deadly_Nightshade]

This topic was already covered ad nauseum, just recently.

 

No, it's been awhile - and I should know, as I was the one who posted the last topic about it.

 

Here it is, although it got derailed...

Edited April 26, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[samm]

Do they recite Christian prayers in in public schools?

 

Students are free to do so as long as it does not interfere with the other students - only mandatory prayer was deems unconstitutional.

Hm? That's fine by me, it's not harassing anyone who isn't Christian, is it?

 

Spreading false information about STD or teaching abstinence as only way to stay safe is of course male cow dung. I heard that this was the case in some african countries and am negatively surprised to hear that schools in the US that do so are tolerated. I wouldn't phrase it as harsh as Gorgon, however nor am I as amused by it as the first posters. Ridiculous? Yes. Funny? No: it's playing with the physical and mental health of kids.

[Sand]

Any sane government and people knows it is its responsibility to help prevent disease epidemics. It's a lunatic who argues otherwise.

 

People are responsible for their own actions, their own health, and their own lives. No more and no less. Getting the US government involved in the personal dealings of its citizens is a slippery slope. Why stop at disease? Why not go a step further in order to maintain "safety?" A well intention tyranny is still tyranny.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

However, sexual education is something children need to receive if they are not going to be a burden on society and the health resources - thus the government needs to make sure they receive it.

[Sand]

As long as the education is unbiased and without a hidden agenda, it would be a subsection on teaching human physiology in a biology course.

 

I don't get this whole burden on society thing however. If kids have sex and get themselves pregnant and/or diseased then let them pay for the consequences of their actions. One thing we need to change is the welfare system. There shouldn't be one.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Sand

[samm]

As long as the education is unbiased and without a hidden agenda, it would be a subsection on teaching human physiology in a biology course.

As it is here (ok, maybe the agenda is hidden very well, but that's not my point ), and yes, it's good that way imo.

I don't get this whole burden on society thing however. If kids have sex and get themselves pregnant and/or diseased then let them pay for the consequences of their actions.

Fair enough, but in the end, if we have the possibility to prevent such situation simply by informing them about sex and consequences in school, why shouldn't we? It even is one of the more practical things taught at school, as being able to do perform integral/differential math is nice, but knowing about your own physiology, diseases and such is important.

One thing we need to change is the welfare system. There shouldn't be one.

Huh? Even less of one than there is in the US? You're kidding, right?

[Humodour]

Any sane government and people knows it is its responsibility to help prevent disease epidemics. It's a lunatic who argues otherwise.

 

People are responsible for their own actions, their own health, and their own lives. No more and no less. Getting the US government involved in the personal dealings of its citizens is a slippery slope. Why stop at disease? Why not go a step further in order to maintain "safety?" A well intention tyranny is still tyranny.

 

You are truly beyond logic.

[Guard Dog]

Any sane government and people knows it is its responsibility to help prevent disease epidemics. It's a lunatic who argues otherwise.

 

People are responsible for their own actions, their own health, and their own lives. No more and no less. Getting the US government involved in the personal dealings of its citizens is a slippery slope. Why stop at disease? Why not go a step further in order to maintain "safety?" A well intention tyranny is still tyranny.

 

You are truly beyond logic.

 

Have you ever heard the old saying about wrestling a pig?

[Humodour]

I just don't understand how he makes those claims with a straight face. America DOES intervene in matters of national security, and in matters of personal security. From things like traffic wardens to laws against drugs to the Centre for Disease Control. Yet he has the hide to claim these things are on the verge of Tyranny? It's like the words 'liberal democracy' mean nothing to him.

[Gorgon]

I'm curious as to how far Guard Dog would follow the logic of his libertarian conception of freedom and individual choice.

 

Should we legalize crack cocaine ?. It's a choice after all, and drug dealers only supply a means to individual choice denied people by a repressive system.

[taks]

Name a 'lberal' polticial agenda that has damaged primary education to the same extent as those mentioned.

outcome based education.

duh.

 

taks

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I'm not sure that is a "'liberal' political agenda."

Edited April 27, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Guard Dog]

I'm curious as to how far Guard Dog would follow the logic of his libertarian conception of freedom and individual choice.

 

Should we legalize crack cocaine ?. It's a choice after all, and drug dealers only supply a means to individual choice denied people by a repressive system.

 

No we should not. And you will find I differ with most "libertarians" on that one. A society with no limits on human behavior will descend into chaos. There must be some law and it should be minimal, clearly defined, and applied equally to all. By and large the US has that. Crack cocaine (heroin, PCP, and all other hallucinogenic drugs) will turn a regular human into a danger to himself and everyone around him. I don't think you could say the same about non-hallucinogenic substances like marijuana. Additionally it is entirely appropriate that federal law enforcement is used to enforce drug laws because 99% of all illegal narcotics originates from outside the US.

 

Going back to your "iron fisted" comment. One of the reasons people like me want the federal government as small as possible is because it could be used to enforce a social agenda. You wanted the government to "mercilessly eradicate" any semblance of Christian/religious thought from education. Where does that end Gorgon? Next will you start closing private religious schools and universities? Or closing churches? Imprisoning pastors? All of these institutions teach Christian/religious thought and all are either protected of funded by the state to one degree or another. Using the government to enforce a social idea is all fine and good so long as you agree with that idea. What happens if the next thing they want to "mercilessly eradicate" affects you? There is a great little saying about the Holocaust by Martin Niemoller:

 

When the Nazis came for the communists,

I remained silent;

I was not a communist.

 

When they locked up the social democrats,

I remained silent;

I was not a social democrat.

 

When they came for the trade unionists,

I did not speak out;

I was not a trade unionist.

 

When they came for the Jews,

I remained silent;

I wasn't a Jew.

 

When they came for me,

there was no one left to speak out.

 

 

Granted what happened in Germany will never happen in the US or probably anywhere else, but you see what I'm getting at here.

Edited April 27, 2008 by Guard Dog

[Walsingham]

I assumed this was just a chance for DN to say he'd got some nookie.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I assumed this was just a chance for DN to say he'd got some nookie.

 

Well, maybe if I backdated it and edited the original post...

[taks]

I'm not sure that is a "'liberal' political agenda."

OBE? that's a purely socialist construct.

 

taks

[samm]

Cool. That means that in my country, the capitalists adopt a socialst idea. Of course not in its entiety, otherwise it wouldn't be mandatory to be present during each lesson...

[Gorgon]

Thats a stretch. In fact it's held up as an example of what not to do over here in pinko Europe.

 

Well, everything even vaguely American is, but thats beside the point.

[samm]

Held up by whom? Some director of the national economic comittee lately said that universities should set the barriers of examn results so high that only that as many people as the economy needs* of that specific direction can get their masters degree (or was it even enter master courses?). Isn't that a form of OBE too?

 

*: read: 0 historian, 5 germanists, 0 philosopher, 79 sinologists, 100 lawyers, 100 mbas etc

Edited April 27, 2008 by samm

[Gorgon]

Wheres this ?

[samm]

Look for the most conservative spot on a map of (geographical) europe

[Humodour]

I think Australia has a good balance of capitalism and socialism. I'm now sure how it is perceived from an international standpoint, but I frequently find myself and Australia to be more in line with the Scandinavian system than the American one.