What are the skills in this game?

[Enoch]

[quote name='H

[H]

The problem is that roughly 70% of the different builds that were supported were essentially "gotchas" that-- with no warning to the player-- would make a totally gimped character with little hope of progressing much in the game once the combat difficulty rose. I'd much rather have fewer options that all offered similar advantages in the game than have 100 options, 10 of which are uber-powerful, 20 of which are OK, and 70 of which are of almost no use at all to your character.

That's the problem the majority of classless systems shares: spread your skill points too thinly and you're screwed. That said, I've never seen a person who would actually do this. Most people tend to focus on several skills and abilities only, with a bit of dabbling in a other areas. Newbies are prone to this mistake, but it was possible to turn the auto allocation of skill points on.

 

A great example: You mentioned earlier that one of the benefits of a high charisma is that you can bring more companions to do your fighting for you. True, but ultimately a large party weakens your party rather than strengthens it because the idiotic XP system awards your character virtually no XP for damage done to enemies by allies. (And your allies themselves don't have independent XP, they just progress along with your character.) Whoever designed that had a serious case of the stupid.

Agreed. The way XPs were awarded was unbelievably dumb.

 

I don't think Arcanum's chargen system is fundamentally wrong, and this approach should be ditched and forgotten. Some polishing certainly would be welcome.

Edited March 21, 2008 by H

[Humodour]

[quote name='H

[H]

My point: that people don't buy RPGs for the dialogue and diplomacy. They're certainly part of the appeal, but so is combat.

Most people don't buy RPGs for the dialogue and diplomacy. Still, I know several persons who choose stealth or persuasion over direct violence whenever they can.

Being forced to rely solely on your NPCs because you took the dialogue-based route seems a rather inane limitation. It's an example of overbalancing.

Why? There is nothing wrong with being able to play a weak character who can't hold a sword, but can talk his way out of almost any trouble or, if that fails, use his stronger and better equipped friends as protection.

Edited March 22, 2008 by H

[Humodour]

[quote name='H

[H]

I do that. I play a diplomatic character in Fallout and PS:T, and I always always play a stealthy character in NOLF/Deus Ex.

 

That said, these character roles are only appealing because I get to choose what to do each time (not because I'm forced to choose diplomacy because my combat skills suck). Also regardless of what I choose, there's plenty of chance to have some fun combat with your main character either way - so it's not like its a penalty if you choose the diplomatic/stealthy route.

I'm sorry, but if a game doesn't allow you to create a munchkin character that can do everything in a single playthrough, it's a damn good game with great replay value.

 

There's certainly a problem with that if the only way to get the interesting dialogue is to forgo combat.

 

An RPG is typically about both plot/dialogue and combat. To force a player to forgo one in favour of the other seems poor design to me.

Thing is, in a well-designed RPG charismatic characters simply don't need to fight. If you can get through the game using diplomacy only then what's the problem? Supporting several distinct playstyles with each of them having their own rewards and penalties doesn't strike me as poor design.

 

(And no, NPCs doing the fighting doesn't count as combat, that counts as babysitting; the protagonist is the avatar of the player, and as such is what most players care about in the game world - friends are nice, but in the end the protagonist is the main deal. Less of a problem when you have control of all NPCs as in PS:T)

So creating a tactician who relies on coordinating the actions of his followers doesn't belong in role-playing games?

 

You seem to have a strange idea that every character should be able to kick some ass in RPGs. Well, you are wrong. The more ways there are to finish a game, the better the game is. Combat is (or should be, at least) just one of these ways, not a mandatory element that should be present in every single playthrough.

[Tigranes]

One assumes, of course, that the kind of system Hummel is advocating can accommodate not only the all-diplo nonfighter that is currently the point of discussion, but also a diplomatic man who can wield a gun to adequate effect should the need arise. It is simply that he can't sweet-talk the Queen of Sweden for a threesome and shoot the eye of a needle across the British Channel all in one playthrough.

[Master Assassin]

This game sounds truly awesome on paper...as with most games, its all about wait and see. For skillsets...I'm with most of you on here, there's been some very lucid and well-written/thought out ideas...I like it!

[Meshugger]

Back to topic, skills are described when reaching "max"-level:

 

- Orator. You deal with people in a charming, intimidating or stoicly serious way. You decide.

 

- Hacking. You are never on the place where things happen. However, you can launch a nuclear attack on North Korea from a "lost" iPhone.

 

- Security. You were the technical security advisor for the Mission Impossible movies. And you only instructed them on the basics.

 

- Stealth. Only Ninjas will know where you are, but that's only because they can feel your precence, not by actually seeing you.

 

- Medic. You can heal yourself better than anyone else. People will question your (lack of) mortality.

 

- Weapons that can pierce and cut. Even CIA-agents can learn the way of the katana that would put Masamune and Muramasa to shame.

 

- Light weapons that shoot bullets. Think Bronson in "Death Wish".

 

- Heavy weapons that shoot bullets....and rockets. Think Rambo or Commando, the choice is yours.

 

- Bruce Lee, your body is a weapon.

 

- Luck, bullets and missiles strangely miss you and people sometimes die when you punch them on their little finger. It happens.

[thepixiesrock]

Putting all my skill points into luck!

[jaguars4ever]

Putting all my skill points into luck!

Putting all my skill points into *uck!

[Master Assassin]

I can think of only four-

 

Conversational - are you smooth like Bond, master interrogator like Bauer or taciturn like Bourne?

 

Cognitive - ability to 'see' or anticipate enemy engagements, like a Bond sense

 

Corporeal - this amounts to talent with hands and feet- it could incorporate agility, stamina and CQB skills/hand to hand combat and melee weapons

 

Armorial - any weapon that is not melee-only (non-firing) could be considered here.

 

Kinda broad; maybe I'll break it down later.

[simulacra]

Soo, am I the only one that is bothered by seeing the xm-8 in the game since the gun is more or less discontinued?

[Humodour]

[quote name='H

[H]

It's poor design because you're forcing a dichotomy: combat or diplomacy. The vast majority of players enjoy both, regardless of how "awesome" it is to be able to play the game entirely from a diplomatic viewpoint. You're all about choice, yet you're vehemently against the choice of a combat/diplomacy mix. What's with that?

Uh...

One assumes, of course, that the kind of system Hummel is advocating can accommodate not only the all-diplo nonfighter that is currently the point of discussion, but also a diplomatic man who can wield a gun to adequate effect should the need arise. It is simply that he can't sweet-talk the Queen of Sweden for a threesome and shoot the eye of a needle across the British Channel all in one playthrough.

That would be it. Building a hybrid character who gets something from both worlds should definitely be possible. However, if a player did put all his skill points in social skills or thievery and completely ignored combat training than there is absolutely no excuse for him to whine about how his character holds a sword by the wrong end. Allocating skill points this way was his choice. He has to be a man and face the consequences. Either that, or roll a new character.

 

Don't be facetious. Zoo-keeper (or tactician, to use your rosy vernacular) is a viable playstyle, certainly. But forcing anybody who plays a diplomatic character to necessarily play a zoo-keeper in combat is annoying and unnecessary.

It isn't, if you want the character with 0 points in combat skills to be able to survive fighting. If you have a better solution, feel free to share it with me.

 

Most people have that "strange idea" that characters in an RPG should be able to kick some ass.

Fun trivia: most people think that RPG is a game where the character kills stuff, loots treasures and saves the world, and hail Oblivion as the second coming of Christ. I would be surprised if most people knew what role-playing meant.

 

I'm wrong? Wrong about what? I don't believe I've ever stated combat is the only way to go about playing an RPG.

 

I've simply pointed out the fairly obvious fact that the majority of people who buy RPGs (even the hardcore fans) enjoy their combat just as much as they do dialogue, thus restricting somebody to two mutually exclusive archetypes is silly.

 

The entire point of a skill-based character system is the option for "in between" characters - characters which don't fit any specific mould. Why on earth would you then want to 'balance' the system so you can only play certain archetypes? That screams "class-based system" to me.

See the first bit of this post. Looks like we misunderstood each other on several points. Oh, and sorry for the late reply.

[Master Assassin]

This line right here:

 

"However, if a player did put all his skill points in social skills or thievery and completely ignored combat training than there is absolutely no excuse for him to whine about how his character holds a sword by the wrong end. Allocating skill points this way was his choice. He has to be a man and face the consequences. Either that, or roll a new character."

 

Being a sword enthusiast, I laughed out loud at the imagery; thanks for that Mr. Hummel. LOL

 

I don't take issue with any of that, but I was wondering- they say our boy is going to be a fully trained, if green, agent. So it stands to reason he'll have some skill with weapons and tactics, he just won't be the badass he can be until the controller (you, me, whoever) decide which route he'll take.

 

On the RPG thing, I'm going to assume you mean the whole point of it is to be able to be something you actually are not, hence 'role play'. How close am I?

[bronzepoem]

I'm consulting my copy of Game Informer over the course of this estimation, and I'll leave page numbers so you can find it in your own copy (assuming you have one).

 

On page 43, there's a quote from Chris Parker: "you have 10 skills."

 

Here's an overview of my estimation from the text:

1. Pistols. Mentioned in the section on emulating the JBs tactics on 43. Also on page 44, it mentions "points in pistols." This is the logical basis for a lot of this - if pistols are mentioned, then I can somewhat guesstimate what else is a skill.

2. Some sort of gadgetry. It mentions using "remote-detonated explosives" if you want to emulate 007 on page 43.

3. Hand-to-hand. Mentions stealthy neck-snapping on 43, also mentions "the monk".

4. Assault Rifle. Mentions the assault rifle on 44. If "pistols" is a skill, then "assault rifles" is probably one too.

5. Shotgun. Picture on page 47 clearly shows Michael holding a shotgun.

6. Stealth. Mentions stealthy neck-snapping on 43, also mentions "the stealth guy," also mentions "the assassin".

7. No idea. Anybody find any other clues in the text?

8. No idea.

9. No idea.

10. No idea.

 

 

I think there shouldn't be more than three fighting skills. It's a RPG, combat just one part of the game.

So Assault Rifle,Shotgun and Pistols should be included by one skill:gun.

Edited April 4, 2008 by bronzepoem

[Haljordan]

I think skills will be interesting. I think as was mentioned in the game informer article while you can be good a bit at each thing (Jack of all trades) I assume, you can't "Max everything" as the Article says. Which is good cause that always annoyed me. I want a specalist or someone unique enough to make me want to play the game again with a different skill set.

[H]

On the RPG thing, I'm going to assume you mean the whole point of it is to be able to be something you actually are not, hence 'role play'. How close am I?

Pretty close. Basically, RPGs, in my opinion, are about creating and fleshing out your character through skills selection and in-game choices. You certainly can roll a character who has nothing to do with your own personality, but players tend to gravitate towards characters who mirror their own world outlook, especially on the first playthrough. It's actually pretty tricky to give a definition to role-playing, but I hope you get the basic idea.

[Master Assassin]

[quote name='H

[Fish]

One of the skills is Stripping. The higher you level, the faster your clothes come off. I believe Avellone alludes to this skill on page 49 of the article. "...your pants will be off. Clothes will be scattered around the room and you will have had a great time." It works best when used in conjunction with the Chick Bagging skill.

[Musopticon?]

This:

the levelling up and the loot.

does not equal this:

[quote name='H

[Cycloneman]

One of the skills is Stripping. The higher you level, the faster your clothes come off. I believe Avellone alludes to this skill on page 49 of the article. "...your pants will be off. Clothes will be scattered around the room and you will have had a great time." It works best when used in conjunction with the Chick Bagging skill.

I'm pretty sure that's referring to the player, not Michael himself.

 

But yeah, for those who (like me) thought that quote wasn't there... it totally is.

[bronzepoem]

One of the skills is Stripping. The higher you level, the faster your clothes come off. I believe Avellone alludes to this skill on page 49 of the article. "...your pants will be off. Clothes will be scattered around the room and you will have had a great time." It works best when used in conjunction with the Chick Bagging skill.

Ok, I will send this post to a dozen of game bbs. It's the original words of Obsidian's developer! Don't tell me you work in Alien team

[Fish]

Ok, I will send this post to a dozen of game bbs. It's the original words of Obsidian's developer! Don't tell me you work in Alien team

 

Nah I work on AP. And really I just wish there was a Chick-Bagging skill. I'd settle for a Grope skill, though.