And this is why there should be more sex-ed...

[walkerguy]

I was being sarcastic, nice work there champ.

 

I try not to assume like that cause it'd make "an ass out of you and me" (HAHA) but I suppose I was wrong there. Sarcasm: sometimes difficult to detect.

[samm]

Ok. Let's stop public bullying and teasing, ok? I'll do it, and sorry walkerguy if I've been with the crowd offending you.

 

Now, on topic:

Someone a page ago or so implied that sex education could actually be causing this. Or am I misinterpreting that post? If not: What do you think people learn in these lessons?

[walkerguy]

Source

Petition Against Teen Sex Ed

Petition Support Teen Sex Ed

 

Posted on Sun, Feb. 17, 2008

 

 

Sex ed led by teens is dividing parents. "Do you want a 16-year-old boy teaching your 14-year-old daughter ..."

Foes say they feel deceived. Supporters in point to supervision and an N.J. law.

 

By John Sullivan

 

Inquirer Staff Writer

 

A tussle that began with a condom and a banana has morphed into all-out war at a New Jersey high school, with some parents trying to end a peer-to-peer sexual-education course taught in about 45 other public schools statewide.

Parents opposed to the classes at Clearview Regional High School, in Mullica Hill, say that kids shouldn't be instructing kids about sex and that the elective course doesn't go far enough in stressing abstinence.

 

Some have accused the school of being deceptive about what is taught in the New Jersey Teen Prevention Education Program, known as Teen PEP. And they contend that public money has been misspent on the curriculum, developed with help from state health officials and taught since 1994.

 

School district administrators say misinformation has fueled the firestorm, which began last month and is expected to continue at a Feb. 28 school board meeting. They say New Jersey law requires them to teach a comprehensive class that addresses abstinence, safe sex, dating violence, HIV-AIDS, and how alcohol and drugs affect sexual decision-making - a fact confirmed by the state health department.

 

Six students have withdrawn from the coeducational program, in which faculty-supervised juniors and seniors conduct a series of five seminars attended by a total of 125 freshmen.

 

"This is a few parents making a lot of noise," said Diane Cummins, assistant superintendent for curriculum and instruction in the Clearview Regional School District, where Teen PEP began without controversy last year.

 

What's happening in this Gloucester County town of new homes and farm fields 25 miles south of Camden is part of a nationwide increase in conflicts over sex-ed courses, experts say.

 

Last year, parents sparred publicly over such classes in 244 cases, up from 204 in 2006, according to the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States, a nonpartisan, nonprofit sexual-education agency. In 1998, there were 140 cases.

 

Clashes leveled off as communities accepted sex-ed programs limited to teaching abstinence until marriage and about the failure rates of contraception - an approach required since 1998 of schools that accept Title V federal funding.

 

In recent years, however, advocates for comprehensive sexual education have fought the narrowly tailored courses, on which the Bush administration intends to spend $141 million this year.

 

States have increasingly refused Title V money - Arizona last month became the 16th to do so - and are using alternate funding to develop and teach their own curriculums.

 

New Jersey has never accepted Title V money, and had avoided becoming much of a battleground until recently. Pennsylvania has alternately turned down and taken federal funding; educators in the state are seeking clarification concerning possible changes to their sex-ed courses.

 

At Clearview, those who oppose Teen PEP are not from a single camp. Some parents object to it on religious or moral grounds; others consider themselves more moderate. The complaint they share is that they were not adequately informed that their children would be taught by students.

 

"Do you want a 16-year-old boy teaching your 14-year-old daughter how to put on a condom by using a banana?" asked Lisa Westermann, whose son said the course had made him uncomfortable.

 

Westermann said she had not given permission for her 14-year-old boy to attend Teen PEP. And her son, who she asked not be named, did not realize the nature of the seminar until the banana episode. He was reluctant to leave for fear he would be ridiculed, she said.

 

Clearview has acknowledged that three freshmen, who didn't have permission slips, were incorrectly included.

 

"It's unfortunate it happened, and we've all learned something from it," said Cummins, who said new procedures had been put in place to prevent a similar mistake.

 

At Westermann's request, Clearview gave her the 900-page Teen PEP instructors' manual. But the school told her that it taught only certain segments of the curriculum, Westermann said.

 

Families considering whether to let their children attend don't know what's in and what's out, she said last week.

 

"How can a parent educate her child, or make a counterpoint to a lesson, without knowing what he's learned?" she asked.

 

Westermann said she would like to see a revised course that emphasized abstinence and avoided discussion of contraception, which she thinks promotes sexual activity. If birth control must be taught, she said, she wants it done by adults who will focus on failure rates.

 

Cummins agreed that parents needed to choose for their children, but not for others.

 

"We respect a parent's right to make a decision for their own children, but when they pressure other parents about what's right for their children, that's unfair," Cummins said.

 

A leadership organization in Princeton designed Teen PEP with funding and approval by the New Jersey Department of Health and Senior Services.

 

The class works like this: Juniors and seniors apply to become instructors, and 26 are selected. They take an intensive sexual-health class and develop skits and interactive lessons they present to freshmen five times a year. Faculty advisers are always present.

 

The junior and senior volunteers do not see much controversy. "Abstinence is the only 100 percent effective way to avoid pregnancy and, I think, the best decision I can make as a teen," said Brighid Burgin, 17, a peer educator.

 

"But it's not a perfect world," and kids do have sex, she said.

 

Without a course like Teen PEP, Burgin said, "we're concerned we won't get the information out there so kids can grow into good decision-makers."

 

Peer sex-ed counseling, popular in colleges, has found its way into high schools only recently. Cummins, who selected the curriculum after consulting with health officials, said she believes it works. So do the peer educators.

 

"Students listen to each other anyway," said Alex Van Kooy, 16, a Clearview peer educator. They talk about sex "in the halls and at the bus stop, and we're just trying to give the correct information instead of rumors and whispers."

 

Douglas Kirby, a scientist at ETR Associates of California, a nonprofit health-research organization, has studied the effectiveness of sexual-education programs for 30 years. Some of the programs he designs include peer teachers, but those taught by adults are equally effective, he said.

 

Though today's teenagers are more sophisticated than previous generations, Kirby said, learning about sex in a coed setting is always embarrassing.

 

"I'm 64, and when we learned about rats having sex in biology we got embarrassed," Kirby said. "But it didn't hurt us any."

 

Parents Joe and Natalie Fortunato were clear about what they would like to happen to Teen PEP.

 

"We want it gone," said Natalie Fortunato, who would prefer the school teach abstinence until marriage.

 

The couple, who have a daughter who is a junior at Clearview and a son who will attend next school year, have started a Web petition to end the course. They say references to Planned Parenthood, a group that has made abortions available to teenagers, show it is biased.

 

The Fortunatos also object to a segment promoting tolerance toward people of all sexual orientations.

 

Research has found that teaching teenagers safe-sex practices does not make them likely to have sex younger. And studies, including one in 2007 conducted for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, have indicated that abstinence-only courses have little effect on teenagers' sexual behavior.

 

"Many comprehensive sexual-education programs are effective at getting kids to delay the initiation of sex, and no studies show that it encourages them to engage in sex," said John Santelli, professor of clinical population and family health at the Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health.

 

"I understand a parent's concern, but there is no evidence that this happens," Santelli said.

 

In Mullica Hill, Cummins said the district planned to form a committee to review the Teen PEP curriculum.

 

But nationally, with 60 percent of high school students sexually active by 12th grade, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Santelli said many parents had already made their decision.

 

Overwhelmingly, he said, Americans agree that they want their children to get comprehensive sexual education.

 

In response to samm.

Edited March 12, 2008 by walkerguy

[walkerguy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7290088.stm

 

No! Use CNN! http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/...d.ap/index.html

 

Sorry. After getting this from Eddo I had to post it because of what was said earlier.

Edited March 12, 2008 by walkerguy

[Nick_i_am]

Personally I don't use CNN because their site is ugly and annoying to navigate (as well as shoving adverts in your face) and, as this article proves, the news reported is esentially exactly the same.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[walkerguy]

Personally I don't use CNN because their site is ugly and annoying to navigate (as well as shoving adverts in your face) and, as this article proves, the news reported is esentially exactly the same.

 

LOL

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Someone a page ago or so implied that sex education could actually be causing this. Or am I misinterpreting that post? If not: What do you think people learn in these lessons?

 

Abstinence-only sexual education is a well-proven failure, although some parts of the Republican Party refuse to acknowledge this, and should be stuck from the school curriculum in favor of something that might actually be of some practical use. So, yes, indirectly sexual education, or, rather, the lack of a proper one, is responsible for some of the problem.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7290088.stm

 

No! Use CNN! http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/...d.ap/index.html

 

No thank you, I'll stick with the BBC.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[walkerguy]

Quote Samm: Someone a page ago or so implied that sex education could actually be causing this. Or am I misinterpreting that post? If not: What do you think people learn in these lessons?

 

Quote Nightshade: Abstinence-only sexual education is a well-proven failure, although some parts of the Republican Party refuse to acknowledge this, and should be stuck from the school curriculum in favor of something that might actually be of some practical use. So, yes, indirectly sexual education, or, rather, the lack of a proper one, is responsible for some of the problem.

 

Walkerguy: My posted article explains one of the improper programs in the U.S. for sex education. ^ ^ ^

 

Quote Walkerguy: No! Use CNN!

 

Quote Nightshade: No thank you, I'll stink with the BBC.

 

 

You'll stink with the BBC!? I bet by the time I've posted you would have edited your post but HAHAHA. No offense.

[Kor Qel Droma]

This thread = lame.

[Krookie]

no way Kor, BBC vs CNN debates RULE

[Kelverin]

Abstinence-only sexual education is a well-proven failure

So is the other method. Keep sex ed out of the public school system altogether.

I can teach my own children when I think it is appropriate.

Thank you very much

[julianw]

I am Asian.

 

Also, the number of Asians in US is nowhere near the Hispanics or Blacks. It's very likely they got ignored just like the Native Americans.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Abstinence-only sexual education is a well-proven failure

So is the other method. Keep sex ed out of the public school system altogether.

I can teach my own children when I think it is appropriate.

Thank you very much

 

I would disagree, for families who do not approve of things such as birth-control and abortion could easily spread harmful lies and misinformation through their children - just as some moronic missionaries are doing in Africa, despite the AIDs epidemic.

[Kelverin]

Abstinence-only sexual education is a well-proven failure

So is the other method. Keep sex ed out of the public school system altogether.

I can teach my own children when I think it is appropriate.

Thank you very much

 

I would disagree, for families who do not approve of things such as birth-control and abortion could easily spread harmful lies and misinformation through their children - just as some moronic missionaries are doing in Africa, despite the AIDs epidemic.

What if I do approve of things such as birth-control and abortion, do I have your permission to educate MY children?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

What if I do approve of things such as birth-control and abortion, do I have your permission to educate MY children?

 

Yes, everyone should get the chance to educate their own children, but, just in case they choose to abuse the privilege, there should be a fail-safe.

[Kelverin]

What if I do approve of things such as birth-control and abortion, do I have your permission to educate MY children?

 

Yes, everyone should get the chance to educate their own children, but, just in case they choose to abuse the privilege, there should be a fail-safe.

And who is to judge what that fail safe is? You? Paid professionals, liberals, religious right? If you answer paid professionals, who checks on them and what their agenda is? I certainly have the best intentions for my own children, do they? Edited March 12, 2008 by Kelverin

[Nick_i_am]

The elected govenment.

 

But you've both got very valid points.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[walkerguy]

You've got every right to judge what your own kids should know. End story.

 

As for nick, yeah, whats that got to do with anything... Srsly, though.

[Nick_i_am]

Hey, that's what you said when I responded to one of your posts with a LOL.

[walkerguy]

Hey, that's what you said when I responded to one of your posts with a LOL.

 

Why did you keep that post? Nevermind. This shouldn't be talked about here.

[samm]

I can teach my own children when I think it is appropriate.

Thank you very much

Are you one of those who thinks he knows 'what's best for them'? I mean, I get angry even reading this. If you happen to think that mathematics should not be taught to your children, or if you think it's fine but you're not all that good at it, would you let them go to school, but only for courses you approve? What if there's someone actually having more of a clue about sexual matters?

 

What if the children are taught at home what you think you know and is right and appropriate, and also are able to get a different view on things at school? How could that be bad in any way?

 

In my opinion and experience, parents who control the education and other parts of the lives of their offspring always do more harm than good. Even with the best intents. I'd even say: Especially with the best intents.

Edited March 13, 2008 by samm

[walkerguy]

Samm: Reading this post makes me angry and I don't have kids, and hope not to have any for a while. The parent is the top of command. Society is corrupt, and what the world wants kids to see is largely unsafe or inappropriate. And what are your credentials to say you have expeirience that parents do bad jobs raising their children and the world should do it for them? If the world teaches a kid, that kid will be atheist or satanist, view a lot of porn or star for porn, play video games at least 72 hours a week, do drugs, have pre-martial sex in large excess, have a mediocure education and be a stupid, witless poor worker at the corner diner or cafe. Luckly parents do intervene and this rarely happens. (USA Story)

Edited March 13, 2008 by walkerguy

[Nick_i_am]

Parents can end up teaching exactly the same things through abuse or neglect, just go to any foster home and tell the kids that they're part of a 'rare minority'.

 

On the above basis, should all kids be taught at home? If sex education, somthing that actually has application in the real world, shouldn't be taught, then where do we draw the line, should kids even be taught history? After all, this could be seen as 'unsafe or inappropriate'.

[samm]

Parents have every right to communicate values and their experience to their kids, warn them about dangers etc. But:

The parent is the top of command.

I wish you infertility No really, who do you think you are? If you have so little confidence in your possible future children, you just weaken them. If they chose to be atheist, so be it, just let them know what your view and experience on the matter is - or be silent if you don't have any experience. What I read in your post speaks volumes about opinions and assumptions (and presumptions) but not of thought or experience. How is commanding your kids and denying them the right to education (which is what the above quoted guy does) going to make them not

have a mediocure education and be a stupid, witless poor worker at the corner diner or cafe

Also, what is bad about being a poor worker at the corner diner? If that is your kid's way and it is what your kid wants, then it's all good. If it decides to become a satanist, it just has inherited its parents cluelessness, probably revolting against an overly religious "education" by his parents.

 

It must be because I'm an evil satanist sex worker that I've listened to so much Nine Inch Nails, but when reading certain posts and putting myself into the position of a child of such parents, the line repeats itself: "Don't you tell me how I feel"

 

 

About teaching kids at home: Many youngsters are really thirsty for knowledge. They will listen if their parents are a good source of it, I can assure everyone of that. My idea of an ideal education process would be being told by the parents how they see matters, what they know and think and don't know etc, additionaly to the knowledge taught at school. Denying kids official schooling is nothing short of domestic violence, and violence against the freedom of thought (and isn't there a right on education?). Who is free to think if he doesn't know there's more out there than the probably strict views of his parents?

Edited March 13, 2008 by samm

[~Di]

Perhaps some of you are not aware, but home-schooled children in the USA belong to various home schooling associations, accredited by the state, and supply the home-school parents with all the workbooks and materials necessary for the coursework. In addition, home schooled children must past state-licensed examinations commensurate with their grade levels. We are not talking about ignorant mom and pop reading the bible to their kids for 12 years and calling it education.

 

As for the "who do parents think they are to believe they know best for their children" crowd, the parents think they are the parents, charged with the responsibility for raising their children the best way they know how. The parents think they know their children better than anyone else. The parents think they care for their children more than anyone else does.

 

And they are right.

 

As for home-schooling parents committing "domestic violence" against their children, that is uttly ridiculous. For some children, school itself is the violence, a frightening place where they are bullied, ridiculed, and tormented by the metal detector they must walk through daily. With all due respect, some of you are making definitive statements about things of which you are not knowledgeable.

 

Let's not confuse the topic of sex education, which I agree should be a staple of every child's education, by bashing home-schools or parents. Raising children is difficult. Anyone who doesn't think so, try it for 20 years then get back to me.

Edited March 13, 2008 by ~Di