And this is why there should be more sex-ed...

[Deadly_Nightshade]

If the world teaches a kid, that kid will be atheist or satanist, view a lot of porn or star for porn, play video games at least 72 hours a week, do drugs, have pre-martial sex in large excess, have a mediocure education and be a stupid, witless poor worker at the corner diner or cafe.

 

Ok, you just crossed a line that should not have been touched when you equated atheism, pre-martial sexual lessons, and excessive game playing to doing drugs, being stupid, and being a satanist. You clearly do not know anything about what you speak of when it comes to the disbelief in a god-being, or beings, nor should you ever be put in charge of a child's education - for you would, if you used the same logic displayed here, surely **** things up. I really do not give a **** if people want to have pre-martial sex as long as they are willing to accept the consequences, nor is playing video games for seventy-two hours a week necessarily a bad thing.

 

P.S.

Go Samm, I'll address some of the issues you raised, and I support most -if not all- of what you said, either later tonight or tomorrow.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Perhaps some of you are not aware, but home-schooled children in the USA belong to various home schooling associations, accredited by the state, and supply the home-school parents with all the workbooks and materials necessary for the coursework. In addition, home schooled children must past state-licensed examinations commensurate with their grade levels. We are not talking about ignorant mom and pop reading the bible to their kids for 12 years and calling it education.

 

 

 

Some fit your description, some do not - it varies on the state one is in and the type of homeschooling you have applied for. If, say, you are in Virginia, you must either apply for a religious exemption (in this case you can never apply to the public school system, until college, without notifying the state of a change in your status), present a draft of your curriculum, or have a higher degree from an accredited college or university. Also, for the latter two options, you must either present a portfolio for examination or take a standardized test. Some states are more lax, some are harsher - but nearly all have the religious exemption option, something that does not fall under your description.

[Nick_i_am]

The real argument against homeschooling, on the basis that the kids learn the same stuff anyway, is the throretical lack of peer exposure needed to develop real-world social skills.

[~Di]

Perhaps some of you are not aware, but home-schooled children in the USA belong to various home schooling associations, accredited by the state, and supply the home-school parents with all the workbooks and materials necessary for the coursework. In addition, home schooled children must past state-licensed examinations commensurate with their grade levels. We are not talking about ignorant mom and pop reading the bible to their kids for 12 years and calling it education.

 

 

 

Some fit your description, some do not - it varies on the state one is in and the type of homeschooling you have applied for. If, say, you are in Virginia, you must either apply for a religious exemption (in this case you can never apply to the public school system, until college, without notifying the state of a change in your status), present a draft of your curriculum, or have a higher degree from an accredited college or university. Also, for the latter two options, you must either present a portfolio for examination or take a standardized test. Some states are more lax, some are harsher - but nearly all have the religious exemption option, something that does not fall under your description.

 

Virginia also requires home schoolers to abide by acredited home school programs. If you have evidence that the only home schooling allowed in Virginia is to those who have submitted a "religious exception", then I'd be happy to see it. Nothing I have seen in researching Virginia home school requirements supports that thus far.

 

Religion has little to do with most home schooled children, btw. Parents who decide to homeschool do so based primarily on what is best for their children, and the decisions usually are made based upon their child's abilities (very slow or very bright children do not do well in crowded classroom situations), their child's fears (nerds, fat kids, homely kids, insecure kids are frequently the targets of bullies and schoolyard thieves), and parental fears (a lot of schools, particularly urban, inner city schools, are quite frankly dangerous places to be).

 

I still take umbrage with the characterization that home-schooling a child, no matter the reason, is "domestic violence". That is pure rubbish.

[~Di]

The real argument against homeschooling, on the basis that the kids learn the same stuff anyway, is the throretical lack of peer exposure needed to develop real-world social skills.

 

That depends upon the child and the school. In too many schools the only socialization skills some of the "outcast" kids learn is how to avoid thugs and gangs of roving bullies, and to carry clean underwear if their avoidance techniques aren't up to par. Most children do quite well in a public school setting. I did. My children did. However, some children are scarred for life by what they endure in public school. Parents are best able to make these decisions for their own children. Period.

[Nick_i_am]

That doesn't make them experts though, parents, espessally new parents can often be as insecure as the child they're raising, and with everyone saying different things are 'best' it can be very confusing as you probably know. Not that this doesn't mean they're the best ones for the job, but even for ostrisised kids there are risks that lack of social development will negatively effect them later in life.

 

From what i've heard though, american public middle and highschools can be a real trial by fire, which could be why homeschooling seems to be a more popular choise for the middle classes over there than it is in the UK. This is only an impression though, and not based on any actual figures.

[Tigranes]

Parents are best able to make these decisions for their own children. Period.

 

If only that were the case Di, then we wouldnt' have a problem whatsoever; then parents could simply choose and execute the best method for their child.

 

But unfortunately, there's no entrance exam for parenthood, you just have to have a ding-dong and do some hanky-panky. Some parents are too busy earning money to even know much about their chidlren. Some parents don't really love their children that much, or not enough to be concerned about what kind of education might be proper for them. Some parents cannot or do not provide an environment that is suitable for any child to grow in, whether that be in terms of amenities or mental stress or opportunities. And finally, some parents just have really wacky ideas and the child never has a chance.

 

Apart from that though, I think the key thing to do if one decides to homeschool their children, is to try and find alternative means of developing social skills. Spending the majority of your childhood with such a limited scope of social interaction isn't good for most people - its a matter of finding the social environment right for the child (which, yes, is not necessarily public schools, dear God.)

[SteveThaiBinh]

Home-schooling is growing in popularity in the UK. Neither religion nor sex education are behind this - in a majority of cases, parents withdraw their children from state schools because of bullying and the failure of the schools and Local Education Authorities (LEAs) to do anything about it. I believe the law states that home-schooling parents are obliged to provide a quality education for their children, but there's no precise definition of what this means and no requirement that the National Curriculum be followed. As in the US, there are home schooling associations and charities that provide support and advice for parents. Generally, parents are aware of the potential risk of the child failing to develop social skills and so can take action to overcome this - the same associations help parents organise group activities for home-schooled children. Home-schooling parents have faced a lot of resistance and ignorance from the educational establishment - some LEAs have even told parents (falsely) that home-schooling is illegal. I gather the situation is improving, though.

 

Globally, home-schooling is part of a trend of reevaluating 'schooling' as opposed to 'education'. The global development industry, aid organisations and the UN are pushing the Millennium Development Goals to get every child into school, without much concern for the quality of education (and possible abuse) they might receive there. The number of schools has increased dramatically, and so of course has the number of bad schools. I think we're increasingly going to see a backlash against formal schooling and greater variety in how children receive their education.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Virginia also requires home schoolers to abide by acredited home school programs. If you have evidence that the only home schooling allowed in Virginia is to those who have submitted a "religious exception", then I'd be happy to see it. Nothing I have seen in researching Virginia home school requirements supports that thus far.

 

Site I

I'll try to find the exact laws sometime over the weekend when I have more time to look into the matter.

 

Religion has little to do with most home schooled children, btw. .

 

I would doubt that, as it seems the majority of Homeschoolers in the U.S. of A. are clearly home for that very reason - I'll see if I can find the data on this, if not I know people who have it and I'll try to get back to you.

[Humodour]

From what i've heard though, american public middle and highschools can be a real trial by fire, which could be why homeschooling seems to be a more popular choise for the middle classes over there than it is in the UK. This is only an impression though, and not based on any actual figures.

 

The home-schooled kids I've met on the net are from the USA and do it because their parents want to teach from the bible.

 

The other less common reason is for Gifted education. Funny the two reasons are polar opposites.

[Humodour]

Why does me being Asian or not affect my desire to know what the numbers are for Asian-Americans? A "representative sample" of Americans that does not include one of the major ethnic minorities seems a little suspicious, particularly as the article seems to go out of its way to divide people into groups. Why not Asian-Americans, then?

 

Man, you've got a real inferiority complex about being Asian.

[Azarkon]

Not at all. There are times when I wish I were more Asian, actually, though that term is, of course, meaningless.

[Humodour]

Haha fair enough. It was more a silly jab at you than anything meaningful.

 

Kind of like how I tell the American exchange students that smearing Vegemite behind their ears will protect them from the drop bears. (Hint: it won't.)

 

On topic: I support home-schooling in various situations. Most notably Gifted and Talented education. Lots of effort and care needs to be taken to ensure proper social interaction and such, though. Not sure how I'll raise my own kids, but I'd lean towards schools, as dysfunctional and inadequate as they are.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Krezack

[Nick_i_am]

'Drop bears are commonly said to be unusually large, vicious, carnivorous koalas that inhabit treetops and attack their prey by dropping onto their heads from above. They are an example of local lore intended to frighten and confuse outsiders, and amuse locals, similar to the jackalope, hoop snake, wild haggis or snipe.'

 

hahahahahahahah, I just found new respect for Australia.

[Azarkon]

They aren't real?

[Landiskan]

The fame of the Haggis is widespread. I might be a poor wee Japanese Schoolgirl called Bob who lives in Scotland, but I enjoy going on Haggis Hunts. Despite lying rumours and suggestions saying otherwise, the Haggis is real!

[Humodour]

They aren't real?

 

That's not really true. They were thought extinct for many years, but they've recently been spotted in the wild from time to time. They've been made famous by a few cases of foreign hikers in the bush being found with their skulls mauled; typical signs of a drop bear attack.

 

Anybody with half a brain knows to be wary of them, though. Silly tourists think they're cuddly koalas.

[samm]

Sorry ~Di to dissect your posting, but it's easier to answer that way...

Perhaps some of you are not aware, but home-schooled children in the USA belong to various home schooling associations, accredited by the state, and supply the home-school parents with all the workbooks and materials necessary for the coursework. In addition, home schooled children must past state-licensed examinations commensurate with their grade levels. We are not talking about ignorant mom and pop reading the bible to their kids for 12 years and calling it education.

I for one wasn't aware of the federal regulation of this matter. Makes things seem a bit less bad.

As for the "who do parents think they are to believe they know best for their children" crowd, the parents think they are the parents, charged with the responsibility for raising their children the best way they know how. The parents think they know their children better than anyone else. The parents think they care for their children more than anyone else does.

And they are right.

Responsibility? Raising them as best they know? That would be ideal. Even in that case however, no one so far gave me reason to believe that parents know what's best for their children. Even if something is good, everything is ruined when something is forced upon someone "for their own best" - I don't know about your psychological background, but I think it's still pretty obvious that deciding over others is a form of use of force. This leads to the next point:

As for home-schooling parents committing "domestic violence" against their children, that is uttly ridiculous.

If a kid isn't allowed to learn what other children learn, because their parents decided it's for their own best to stay at home learning what they've decided is for their own best, is censorship, and abuse of power over those weaker than them and depending on them. Call it psychological violence. Call it power abuse. My argument still stands.

For some children, school itself is the violence, a frightening place where they are bullied, ridiculed, and tormented by the metal detector they must walk through daily. With all due respect, some of you are making definitive statements about things of which you are not knowledgeable.

You don't owe me any respect, what a flowery phrase , if you did, you wouldn't get away with the rest of the sentence which clearly isn't based on any facts you can possibly know about me.

Anyway, first: Yes, school can be a horrible experience. It can be, it's not a fact that it is. If it is, home schooling might well be a last resort, but not a very good one, because: If school is a nighmare, it's most certainly because of bullying and harassment by other kids, because if the teachers were to blame, there would be a legal solution to end the situation. So, if it is the other kids, affected children would not only have to be schooled at home, but also kept at home because as soon as they'd want to mingle with some of the same age, they'd be bullied again (a guess: probably worse, because now, there obviously a "mommy's son"). There just is no easy solution to social harassment, but home schooling is one of least preferable.

 

All in all, after thinking about it now considering some new arguments from this thread, I wouldn't condemn every case of home schooling. Still, I have mixed feelings about the exceptions: The thoughts about bullied kids I stated above. Gifted ones would certainly need additional attention, but if the parents - if not as bright and fast as their child - would suffice for long? I doubt it, partially backed up with my own childhood.

 

Let's not confuse the topic of sex education, which I agree should be a staple of every child's education, by bashing home-schools or parents. Raising children is difficult.

Agreed. Also, if any parents feel bashed by my statements: Yes, I was talking about you! If parents feel bashed because I bashed certain attitudes of other parents: Don't feel offended, I'm not against parenthood, caring and taking responsibility for kids etc

Anyone who doesn't think so, try it for 20 years then get back to me.

I would take that offer if I would get any kids just to prove you wrong in those points we seriously differ

 

 

Oh, and thx to the other contributors for not only not getting off topic (topic being sexual education, just as a reminder) because of the home schooling arguments, but also enlightening the commuinity with drop bears and haggis, which raised my own level of education, as I hadn't heard of those before

Edited March 13, 2008 by samm

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I for one wasn't aware of the federal regulation of this matter. Makes things seem a bit less bad.

 

However, as I have pointed out, many states have religious exemption that, at the time of this writing, overrides the regulations in most localities.

[samm]

Yes, I've read that. I always suspected that one of the main reasons for parents wanting to school their kids at home was not just scepticism against governmentally prescribed education or fear for their kid's social status in school, but religion. So thanks for backing this suspicion up with some evidence! It also shows that it is too easy to qualify for home schooling, even if it is regulated. "High school diploma", "religious exemption"... how do these and all other possible "reasons" and "qualifications" make someone a viable teacher?...

Edited March 13, 2008 by samm

[Hurlshort]

I would say private schools are a much bigger concern than home schooling. Those home schoolers are too socially awkward to get any action.

 

Private school teachers do not need to meet the same stringent qualifications that public school educators do. Usually a college degree will suffice. Believe me, I've taught in both and there is a world of difference between the education level of public school teachers and private school teachers. That doesn't mean there aren't good and bad apples on both sides, but there tend to be sizable gaps in knowledge when a teacher hasn't undergone any graduate work on being an educator.

[walkerguy]

If you have so little confidence in your possible future children, you just weaken them. If they chose to be atheist, so be it, just let them know what your view and experience on the matter is - or be silent if you don't have any experience.

 

I'd try to teach what their values and principles should be as best I can, and if they choose otherwise, so be it.

 

What I read in your post speaks volumes about opinions and assumptions (and presumptions) but not of thought or experience. How is commanding your kids and denying them the right to education (which is what the above quoted guy does) going to make them not

have a mediocure education and be a stupid, witless poor worker at the corner diner or cafe

 

Sorry, I don't mean only homeschooling, I just mean don't give them all that the gov tries to slap in their faces. Public schools are fine.

 

Also, what is bad about being a poor worker at the corner diner? If that is your kid's way and it is what your kid wants, then it's all good. If it decides to become a satanist, it just has inherited its parents cluelessness, probably revolting against an overly religious "education" by his parents.

 

And working a sleazy job is part of NOBODY's dreams for their future. If soemone fails in their education then they fail at their desire to become a doctor, a scientist, a teacher, whatever. That is a failure's job to work some menial job (or someone very busy, granted.) I can see you likely practice no faith, so I shall not even respond to that comment on satansim, which is what society would get someone into.

 

About teaching kids at home: Many youngsters are really thirsty for knowledge. They will listen if their parents are a good source of it, I can assure everyone of that. My idea of an ideal education process would be being told by the parents how they see matters, what they know and think and don't know etc, additionaly to the knowledge taught at school. Denying kids official schooling is nothing short of domestic violence, and violence against the freedom of thought (and isn't there a right on education?). Who is free to think if he doesn't know there's more out there than the probably strict views of his parents?

 

Again, public schooling is fine, don't get misconceptions. My intent is that you are against the parents judgement. You want the judgement of society or the government (specifically in this case the ideaology of the school's judgement on sex ed being superior to parent's). A parent shall decide on such matters, not some cursed bureacrat, official, or principal (headmaster for you Euros). Can you see what I mean now or are you just pro-society??

 

Note: This post has the USA in mind.

[walkerguy]

Perhaps some of you are not aware, but home-schooled children in the USA belong to various home schooling associations, accredited by the state, and supply the home-school parents with all the workbooks and materials necessary for the coursework. In addition, home schooled children must past state-licensed examinations commensurate with their grade levels. We are not talking about ignorant mom and pop reading the bible to their kids for 12 years and calling it education.

 

As for the "who do parents think they are to believe they know best for their children" crowd, the parents think they are the parents, charged with the responsibility for raising their children the best way they know how. The parents think they know their children better than anyone else. The parents think they care for their children more than anyone else does.

 

And they are right.

 

As for home-schooling parents committing "domestic violence" against their children, that is utterly ridiculous. For some children, school itself is the violence, a frightening place where they are bullied, ridiculed, and tormented by the metal detector they must walk through daily. With all due respect, some of you are making definitive statements about things of which you are not knowledgeable.

 

Let's not confuse the topic of sex education, which I agree should be a staple of every child's education, by bashing home-schools or parents. Raising children is difficult. Anyone who doesn't think so, try it for 20 years then get back to me.

 

*Walkerguy cheers then whimpers about the prospect of hard parenting in his future*

 

I'd say we're divided...

 

Liberal

 

~Di

Walkerguy

 

VERSUS

 

Conservative

 

Deadly_Nightshade (partially)

Samm

 

NUETRAL

 

Independent

 

Tigranes

SteveThaiBinh

Krezack

Hurlshot

nick_i_am

 

And I don't mean politically in general (I believe ~Di said she was independent). I mean on this topic. Anyhow, correct me if I'm wrong (do it intelligently or I'll laugh at you).

Edited March 13, 2008 by walkerguy

[Gorth]

Can you see what I mean now or are you just pro-society??

As opposed to... anti-society?

 

I'm not a parent, don't plan on raising any children, don't teach any children (unless you count software developers, and that only on rare occasions).

 

I would just assume that the more knowledge children becomes exposed to, from as many varied sources as possible, the better (provided that their parents offer some guidance to what they find right and wrong and especially the "why" they find things right or wrong). Nothing makes me more happy than independent thinking and a questioning mind.

 

Just a thought, isn't the increasing unattractiveness (violence, bullying etc.) of the public school system a result of more and more parents failing at being parents rather than a failing of the public school system?

[walkerguy]

Yes, anti evils of society. Don't lock people up or anything. Putting it that way, gotta be a moderate on the issue. I label you, Gorth, as "Nuetral" at this point. Plenty of social exposure or whatever but not too much of the trans fats of the world today, is just whats needed.

Edited March 13, 2008 by walkerguy