Titan Quest producer rants on PC market.

[newc0253]

The numbers make more sense if you think of it terms of copies of games instead of number of people. Naturally, pirates will play tons of games -- it's not like it costs them anything to download ten games a month. Paying gamers probably buy only one or two games a month, if that.

pirates may play tons of games but they still only play 1 copy per pirate. whichever way you stack up the numbers, the 90% figure is ludicrous.

 

as a scare figure, it's also unnecessary. even if piracy only accounted for 20% of copies or 20% of lost sales or whatever, the PC market would still have a serious problem. which, i would guess, it in fact does.

[LostStraw]

Current copy protections schemes just don't work.

 

Piracy now days consists of finding a bit-torrent site picking what game you want and downloading. Many of the downloads come with easy to follow instructions in how to get it set up. It takes less brainpower to pirate a game than it does to drive to the store and make a purchase.

 

Maybe when the copy protection schemes become more tightly integrated into the hardware/OS (as they are becoming) will be when they become more effective. If it required a lot more effort/risks to pirate games I'm sure less people would do it.

[Gorth]

For starters, it would nice with an incentive rather than a punishment for buying a game. I buy my games and have done so ever since I "grew up". It ticks me off though, that games are crippled by all kinds of mechanisms that works detrimental to fun. I've experienced more than once that I had to do things you are not supposed to do just to get the friggin thing to run (and then have to feel guilty about it afterwards, despite paying full price for the thing). Getting rid of built in crippleware for legit software would be a good thing

 

Publishers need to come up with new ideas.

[Pop]

An incentive like what? It'd have to be something that you couldn't pirate, because naturally people are going to want it in their pirated games.

 

I agree with pretty much all he says except about the copy protection issues. The problem wasn't the piracy just in and of itself, but rather that the copy protection scheme failed to stop it in any way, and, in the process generated bad publicity for the game.

But it created bad publicity because people are petty and stupid, not because of the DRM. The people who played illegitimate copies and complained are like people who complain that the handling on the car they just stole is ****ty. They're not in any position to demand smooth gameplay. They're not in any position to demand gameplay period. There's no indication in the rant (maybe there is elsewhere?) that people who actually owned copies had these problems. Think of it this way: How would you react if people went around denigrating MotB as nigh-unplayable because they only played the early builds of NWN2 proper? (which, incidentally, is something I've run into often outside these boards) That's obviously wrongheaded, and so is bitching about any game you haven't played.

 

Unless you're suggesting that a way to reduce piracy is to remove DRM, which is at the same time both terribly novel and totally expected. We don't pirate games because they've got DRM, we pirate games because we want to play them.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Pop

[LostStraw]

An incentive like what? It'd have to be something that you couldn't pirate, because naturally people are going to want it in their pirated games.

 

I agree with pretty much all he says except about the copy protection issues. The problem wasn't the piracy just in and of itself, but rather that the copy protection scheme failed to stop it in any way, and, in the process generated bad publicity for the game.

But it created bad publicity because people are petty and stupid, not because of the DRM. The people who played illegitimate copies and complained are like people who complain that the handling on the car they just stole is ****ty. They're not in any position to demand smooth gameplay. They're not in any position to demand gameplay period. There's no indication in the rant (maybe there is elsewhere?) that people who actually owned copies had these problems. Think of it this way: How would you react if people went around denigrating MotB as nigh-unplayable because they only played the early builds of NWN2 proper? (which, incidentally, is something I've run into often outside these boards) That's obviously wrongheaded, and so is bitching about any game you haven't played.

 

Unless you're suggesting that a way to reduce piracy is to remove DRM, which is at the same time both terribly novel and totally expected. We don't pirate games because they've got DRM, we pirate games because we want to play them.

 

Stardock didn't add DRM for Galciv 2 and there isn't any in the newly released Sins of a Solar Empire. I remember there being a "swelling" of support from some advocates of piracy when Galciv 2 was released, resulting in a few torrent sites removing it, however it can easily be found now. They included a system where patches and extra content were released through an online update that one had to register for, although the patches and extra content found their way onto piracy sites too.

 

From what I heard Galciv 2 ended up selling pretty well and Sins of a Solar Empire is also selling well so I don't think the lack of DRM is hurting them. This isn't to say that an effective DRM wouldn't help them, as a cursory search shows 96 hits for torrent trackers hosting it, the largest one currently with 4,298 seeders and 4,514 leechers. That translates to a lot of downloads in not too much time, especially since seeders on torrents tend to dwindle fast, it has probably been going strong since the games release. I'd be interested to see some statistics on total numbers of downloads.

 

Note that there isn't a good reason to have to "pirate" the game because there isn't any DRM. It should be trivial to make back up copies from the original.

 

Another thing that probably burns devs is that a lot of the piracy websites make money off it through their adds. Don't think they're all just scrapping by covering their bandwidth costs, especially the ones that only provide links to other trackers.

[Tale]

But it created bad publicity because people are petty and stupid, not because of the DRM.

Regardless of the reason for bad publicity, bad publicity is still bad.

 

If a game doesn't sell, then the developers don't get money. People being douchebags is ancillary. It's not like simply noting that these people are petty and stupid negates the negative impact they had. And it's not like we can do anything to prevent people from being petty and stupid. What can be done in this situation is limit the harm that petty and stupid people can do. Give them less reason to complain and they don't generate as much bad publicity.

 

Certainly not an ideal solution. It's kind of like giving in to criminal demands. You're almost rewarding them for behaving in an unacceptable manner, but at the same time you're doing it to try to prevent additional problems.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Tale

[~Di]

I'm so sad for the poor guy. Let it not be said, however, that a lot of us did not see this coming.

 

For the past decade, back to ye olde Interplay forums, mighty-mouth (yours truly) has been screeching about piracy being evil and piracy being theft in thread after thread after thread. Those percentages quoted in the article pretty much correspond to the percentages of people ademantly in favor of piracy for all the stupid reasons Michael already mentioned versus those who agreed that piracy was indeed pure, unadultrated thievery.

 

The fears I've expressed for years, that consoles would eventually drive PC gaming out of the market, do not seem so far-fetched nowadays either. Again, for all the reasons expressed in the article.

 

Dang, I've never played Titan Quest. Truthfully, I never heard enough about it to pique my interest. I may go buy a copy, just because. I hate it when game developers go under. It makes baby Jesus cry.

[Gorgon]

I must have spent tens of thousands on games over the odd 15 years I have been playing PC games, pardon me if I don't self destruct out of shame.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Gorgon

[Gromnir]

I must have spent tens of thousands on games over the odd 15 years I have been playing PC games, pardon me if I don't self destruct out of shame.

 

how exactly does the money you has spent on games excuse the theft of still more games? am not seeing the point? what a novel approach to be trying in court...

 

"look, i have spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on cars over the past 15 years. so i stole a car. big whoop. what are you going to do, throw me in prison for stealing a car? heck, with all the money i have already spent on cars, audi should have given me that s8 for free."

 

...

 

give it a try.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nick_i_am]

Only, when you pirate a game, you're stealing somthing that can't be used by anyone else, which isn't really stealing at all EXCEPT for the fact that it's the right of the pulisher to ask for money for it.

 

You steal a car that belongs to someone else, whole different story.

 

This isn't the point though.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[newc0253]

"look, i have spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on cars over the past 15 years. so i stole a car. big whoop. what are you going to do, throw me in prison for stealing a car? heck, with all the money i have already spent on cars, audi should have given me that s8 for free."

hmm, except if we're gonna be strict with our analogies here, he's not actually stealing the car is he? he's making an identical copy of the car and driving off. the owner of the car still has it.

 

is that morally the same as stealing it? is it even legally the same as stealing it.

 

no, not by a long shot.

 

piracy ain't like stealing cars. when you steal a car, you take it away from the owner. when you steal software, the owner still has it. what piracy takes away is the opportunity of developers/publishers to sell their game and thereby make a profit. but theft of an individual copy is at best the loss of a single customer, and not even one who might have paid for the game otherwise. so berating the guy who steals the occassional game as a car thief is pretty silly.

 

i get that piracy hurts developers and, in the long run, ultimately consumers as well. but this whole hysterical 'piracy is theft/'piracy funds osama bin laden'/'piracy gives your puppy cancer' schtick is doomed to fail because people aren't idiots. they know the difference between things which can be copied infinitely and things which can't.

[steelfiredragon]

piracy is just wrong, if publishers want to try and stop it, they they should stop sending pc games to those countries where it is legal.

 

or just not offer any support to where piracy is legal.

[sesobebo]

Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it. But if even a tiny fraction of the people who pirated the game had actually spent some god-damn money for their 40+ hours of entertainment, things could have been very different today. You can bitch all you want about how piracy is your god-given right, and none of it matters anyway because you can't change how people behave... whatever. Some really good people made a seriously good game, and they might still be in business if piracy weren't so rampant on the PC. That's a fact.

So the game makes profit, but the studio still doesn't get fundings for the next project (despite the game being - as he says and I agree - seriously good).

I don't think piracy and hardware dealers were the (only) two biggest problems of Titan Quest and Iron Lore.

[Gorth]

i get that piracy hurts developers and, in the long run, ultimately consumers as well. but this whole hysterical 'piracy is theft/'piracy funds osama bin laden'/'piracy gives your puppy cancer' schtick is doomed to fail because people aren't idiots. they know the difference between things which can be copied infinitely and things which can't.

Would you refuse to pay the guy who built your house after it was finished?

 

After all, if you provided the building materials why should he have any payment, all he contributed was his time and his health. He still has both his hands and can build other houses. Eventually, somebody might pay even him for his efforts if he is lucky.

[Nick_i_am]

Again, the analogy doesn't work, the programmers (the builders) are still being payed if you pirate the game or not, trying to guilt trip people like this seems pointless and you're ignoring the fact that the pirate in question probably wouldn't have spent more money on games either way.

[newc0253]

Would you refuse to pay the guy who built your house after it was finished?

no, but if i can instantaneously make a million copies of the house he builds, what is the builder entitled to?

 

payment for building one house? or a million? because he didn't actually put the labour into building 999,999 houses. he only mixed his labour in with one.

 

and what about the architect, who didn't build any of the houses but designed all of them? does he deserve to be a million times richer than the builder of the original house?

 

i'm not making these points to be flip. i think the builder deserves payment, so does the architect. both deserve not to be ripped off, or see the fruits of their labour exploited by others. the same goes for game developers and publishers. the CRPG market is struggling enough as it is, even without piracy. my future interest in good CRPGs being made for PC is harmed directly.

 

but as long as the various industries hit by piracy (software, film/tv, music) continue to insist that their product has the same characteristics as cars and jewellery, their message is gonna be laughed at. if i get mugged, i should complain about getting mugged. i shouldn't claim i was burgled and raped too.

Edited February 29, 2008 by newc0253

[Gorth]

Again, the analogy doesn't work, the programmers (the builders) are still being payed if you pirate the game or not, trying to guilt trip people like this seems pointless and you're ignoring the fact that the pirate in question probably wouldn't have spent more money on games either way.

If you steal the results of their labour without paying them, well guess what, they might get fed up with it and seek other pastures.

 

It isn't only the loss of income as a result of theft that is harmful, is also the resulting frustration part, having to listen to snotty, spoiled brats trying to justify why stealing is ok with a stupid "But nobody gets hurt" or equally inane "But, they wouldn't have bought it anyway, so why should they pay for it". Low IQ excuses from ethically challenged people.

 

Having spent the last 24 years in software development, I know one thing for sure. Nobody could ever force me to work in game development, not even at gunpoint. Less glamorous allright, but there is a certain satisfaction in doing one-off projects building custom products tailored for one and only purposes since you don't have to deal with the piracy that accompanies shrink wrapped products.

[Gorth]

but as long as the various industries hit by piracy (software, film/tv, music) continue to insist that their product has the same characteristics as cars and jewellery, their message is gonna be laughed at. if i get mugged, i should complain about getting mugged. i shouldn't claim i was burgled and raped too.

I think part of the problem is, that the media and technology has completely outpaced peoples moral values. Kids grow up with an internet connection at home, with easy access to intangible goods, ready for snatching with little risk of being caught.

 

Question is, how to accomplish a shift in attitude and get to the point where it is worth the investment in time and money to create "virtual" things?

[maia]

Well, yet another Diablo-clone that was inferior to original in everything but graphics didn't sell as well as the Devs thought it should have. Color me unimpressed.

 

Regarding piracy - the industry doesn't want to hear it, but a lot of it self-inflicted. As has been noted, diversity of computer builds complicates making bug-free games from the get-go. But developers, publishers and retailers exacerbate the problem by introducing DRM schemes that degrade performance or even make honestly purchased games unplayable for customers who are not tech wizzes, denying return options for customers who can't make their legally purchased game work (which is unheard of for any other product) and by going for graphical cutting edge in new games, which simultaneously reduces their consumer base and introduces more bugs.

Wake up! Every customer who threw their money away because they couldn't make your game run and wasn't allowed to return it is likely lost to computer gaming for good. Every customer who was forced to look for no-CD cracks to make their game work or perform decently is at risk of being seduced by piracy. War against piracy should never be carried out at the expense of the paying consumer, as it only results in game industry losing twice over.

 

And as regards the console games, as far as I can see the art of pirating them seems to be flourishing here in Europe, where both the consoles and the games are comparatively quite expensive.

[newc0253]

I think part of the problem is, that the media and technology has completely outpaced peoples moral values. Kids grow up with an internet connection at home, with easy access to intangible goods, ready for snatching with little risk of being caught.

i disagree. snatching something intangible is morally different from snatching something tangible.

 

suppose you're a poor third world country and you desperately need malaria drugs that you can only buy at great cost from a pharmaceutical giant. you can (a) steal them from a warehouse or (b) copy the formula and produce them a generic version yourself.

 

if you follow option (a), you've deprived other people who would receive the malaria drug.

 

if you follow option (b), you've arguably only cut into the profit margins of a wealthy western pharmaceutical giant.

 

both involve different moral costs but, you tell me, which is morally worse?

Edited February 29, 2008 by newc0253

[Nick_i_am]

If you steal the results of their labour without paying them, well guess what, they might get fed up with it and seek other pastures.

 

I am in no way defending piracy, but I won't say I havn't done it either. Like newc, my shelves are full of games, old and new, and some of my proudest are those that were a complete commercial failure.

 

Hell, I even bought BG2 depite never having played it for more than 3 or 4 hours (not due to not liking it, just better things to do).

 

People who can afford to buy games and don't (at all), for no good reason other than that they're cheap can burn, and I salute interesting copy protection, such as that used in Operation Flashpoint, whereby the game would slowly make the controls more and more unmanagable as the game went on, lure the pirate into enjoying the game THEN screw it up for him.

 

The problem is that I enjoy playing games on a LAN, i've got a two computer one set up here and use it when I can. More often than not though, the games played across these two computers are done so with just one copy of the game. I bought the game, sure, but i'm denying the publisher just as much profit again from not buying a second copy as I would have been by pirating the first. Am I as bad as someone who pirates all their games? I can't decide, point is that i'm still doing it.

 

Likewise, when I lend a game to a friend, and borrow one of his, piracy is the 'big topic', but I could have never pirated a game in my life and still cost the industry just as much. And yet, it's only when I download a game that I wouldn't have bought anyway that i'm branded a badguy.

 

Bottom line is that I, and guys like me, do help support the industry, to no small degree, my actual game to pirate game ratio is at least 10 to 1, discounting console games.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[Gorth]

Oh, I was by no means an angel in my young days :blush10:

 

Some day, it just sort of dawned on me, that what I did was probably not a good thing. Quite a wrong thing really. It didn't happen overnight, but it happened eventually.

 

As for lan games, I agree. Depressingly few publishers consider that people might want to have some fun in a group, but might not all be inclined to buy 15 copies each of 5 games for the few times they might get an opportunity to play it.

 

A few games had the right idea, but the only one I can remember from top of my head is x-wing vs. tie-fighter which came with a "master" and a "slave" game cd, enabling at least two players to play. Maybe publishers need to seriously rethink their licensing when it comes to games that are aimed at co-op players, e.g. buy 1+x (one single player plus x multiplayer participants)?

[Nick_i_am]

The stadalone addon for Dawn of War, Dark Crusade, allows you to install it across a LAN with one copy, which was very nice. Players with this install can only play Tau or Necrons though.

 

Civ4 can be played across a LAN with the same CD, but NWN1 throws a hissy fit if you try to LAN games between two computers with installs that use the same CD key (i'd guess NWN2 does too, but I havn't tried it).

 

Personally, I feel that digital distribution is the way forward, but this again brings up even more issues with the LAN idea. I want to buy SINS, but I am tempted to get the CD version just because there might be issues with installing the DD one across two computers (if need be).

 

Thing is, it's not just the userbase that needs to change their thinking somewhat in order to pull the PC markets head out of the mud, but the publishers, like the record industry, don't really want to hear it.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[Gorth]

Thing is, it's not just the userbase that needs to change their thinking somewhat in order to pull the PC markets head out of the mud, but the publishers, like the record industry, don't really want to hear it.

I think we can agree on that. As I said previously, the events, technologically and culturally have evolved at different paces, creating some kind of anachronism. Voting with a wallet is fine, that is part of the capitalistic model. Only thing I take issue with is if it is done while "shoplifting" with the other hand. Nothing ruins ideals better than a bit of hypocrisy.

 

@Newc: I disagree with your malaria medication example, because people are stealing a recipee to survive, which is a very basic instinct (survival). I don't think it is comparable with what is basically unessential entertainment. That isn't a question of survival, but of wanting a service without paying if you can get away with it.

[Nick_i_am]

Actually, what you guys are proving with your failed analogies is that there is no simple analogy.

 

Which is part of the problem in terms of people understanding how to deal with the issue.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Nick_i_am