The Battlestar Galactica Thread

[Humodour]

Some thoughts:

 

So the fifth Cylon isn't on the fleet? But didn't Moore say it was? I guess that means it's on Earth.

 

Fairly certain the last cylon is in the fleet too, we just don't know who it is yet.

 

Deanna said the fifth is not in the fleet. Heck, the writers didn't even know 100% who it was last I checked.

 

The final four were pretty lame. Besides being useless, they didn't even play much of a role in finding Earth - I mean is that it? Are they just sacks of meat now?

 

What are you talking about? They were instrumental in helping Starbuck realise how to find Earth.

 

In a sense. I wouldn't ever call them useful, important or powerful, though. There's absolutely no differentiating them from humans, and it really better be expanded in the next 'season'.

 

Seems like blowing up the resurrection ship was part of an attempt to not have to deal with whether or not the final five can resurrect.

 

No, it was to force the cylons to confront the concept of mortality. When they did, they became very similar to humans indeed. Besides, the final five can't resurrect, as it would make no sense - how can there cloned bodies for them, if the known seven don't even know who they are?

 

See now you're just making it up for the writers.

 

Looks like it's setting it up for the Fifth Cylon to be pulling the strings of both races.

 

And what about the Evil Cylons?

 

Still ten episodes left - it's not over yet. Waiting for them will be the challenge of patience indeed.

 

Oh, I know. At least the show managed to shrug off some baggage like Gorgon said.

[Rosbjerg]

and of course they landed in New York.. Obviously the rest of Earth is still intact, it's just NY that's been destroyed so many times that finally we gave up rebuilding it.

[Pidesco]

The final four were pretty lame. Besides being useless, they didn't even play much of a role in finding Earth - I mean is that it? Are they just sacks of meat now?

 

What are you talking about? They were instrumental in helping Starbuck realise how to find Earth.

 

In a sense. I wouldn't ever call them useful, important or powerful, though. There's absolutely no differentiating them from humans, and it really better be expanded in the next 'season'.

 

 

I'd say that what makes them special isn't their power or usefulness, but rather that they are so human. BSG is obviously a story about xenophobia, and I'm betting they are the ones that will make everyone, both human and cylon, start doubting their own prejudices.

 

Isaac Asimov would be proud.

[Humodour]

Sure if they run that plot even I'll be happy, but I'm not so sure that's their intent anymore, judging from 410.

[Gorgon]

I think the strike might have been a good turn as regards getting rid of dead tissue. I could care less about the 'truth of the opera house'. I hope they spring something new on us in the final 'season'. Although they are on earth and theres probably an opera house there somewheres.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Gorgon

[astr0creep]

When D'Anna got boxed, Baltar wasn't in the fleet...

[Gorgon]

Am I the only one who doesn't care who the final cylon is anymore, I mean it seems inconsequential, everybody and their grandmother is a cylon.

[Humodour]

Am I the only one who doesn't care who the final cylon is anymore, I mean it seems inconsequential, everybody and their grandmother is a cylon.

 

Yep, kind of.

[Jediphile]

Seems the last "half" of the final season 4 has been extended with two more episodes. Yay!

 

http://www.tv.com/battlestar-galactica-200...ry_list;title;0

[Baley]

When D'Anna got boxed, Baltar wasn't in the fleet...

He was also on the cylon ship as she spoke of the four in the fleet.

 

...

 

Zomg!

[astr0creep]

When D'Anna got boxed, Baltar wasn't in the fleet...

He was also on the cylon ship as she spoke of the four in the fleet.

 

...

 

Zomg!

 

 

Nope. The first time she sees him after being unboxed is when he pops up with Roslin. She even looks surprised and relieved. Also, she tortured him on the baseship, which could explain the "I'm sorry. I didn't know" she says during her vision.

[Tale]

Why is there no talk about the full Cylon child? That's going to be interesting.

 

Edit: If they have time for it.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Tale

[Rosbjerg]

Why is there no talk about the full Cylon child? That's going to be interesting.

 

Edit: If they have time for it.

 

which full Cylon child?

 

You have Hera (I never quite understood if it's Caprica 6 + Baltar's or Athena + Halo's?) which is Human/Cylon and Tyrol + Cally's kid, which is also Human/Cylon.

[Tale]

Why is there no talk about the full Cylon child? That's going to be interesting.

 

Edit: If they have time for it.

 

which full Cylon child?

 

You have Hera (I never quite understood if it's Caprica 6 + Baltar's or Athena + Halo's?) which is Human/Cylon and Tyrol + Cally's kid, which is also Human/Cylon.

Tigh + Caprica Six

 

Hera is Athena + Helo, by the way.

[Jediphile]

Why is there no talk about the full Cylon child? That's going to be interesting.

 

Edit: If they have time for it.

 

which full Cylon child?

 

You have Hera (I never quite understood if it's Caprica 6 + Baltar's or Athena + Halo's?) which is Human/Cylon and Tyrol + Cally's kid, which is also Human/Cylon.

 

Yes, I noted that too. I guess that will later point to other differences between the seven known cylons and the final five. Haven't gotten there yet. I'm pretty sure Tyrol's son will also be significant, but except for Hera, the others have been left in the background so far.

 

And about the final cylon, D'Anna says four are in the fleet. However, then only humans she has seen at the time she says so are Helo - whom we know is not a cylon - and Roslin. And she did ask Roslin if she knew she was a cylon, didn't she? And come to think of it, didn't Roslin act confused as if she blacked out for a second when the fleet jumped to the nebula at the end of season three, when Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders found out they were cylons. Then again, there is evidence to contradict that as well, assuming Moore has been consistent and known who the final cylon was.

[Tale]

Why is there no talk about the full Cylon child? That's going to be interesting.

 

Edit: If they have time for it.

 

which full Cylon child?

 

You have Hera (I never quite understood if it's Caprica 6 + Baltar's or Athena + Halo's?) which is Human/Cylon and Tyrol + Cally's kid, which is also Human/Cylon.

 

Yes, I noted that too. I guess that will later point to other differences between the seven known cylons and the final five. Haven't gotten there yet. I'm pretty sure Tyrol's son will also be significant, but except for Hera, the others have been left in the background so far.

 

And about the final cylon, D'Anna says four are in the fleet. However, then only humans she has seen at the time she says so are Helo - whom we know is not a cylon - and Roslin. And she did ask Roslin if she knew she was a cylon, didn't she? And come to think of it, didn't Roslin act confused as if she blacked out for a second when the fleet jumped to the nebula at the end of season three, when Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders found out they were cylons. Then again, there is evidence to contradict that as well, assuming Moore has been consistent and known who the final cylon was.

How can we know Helo is not a Cylon?

[Arkan]

Why is there no talk about the full Cylon child? That's going to be interesting.

 

Edit: If they have time for it.

 

which full Cylon child?

 

You have Hera (I never quite understood if it's Caprica 6 + Baltar's or Athena + Halo's?) which is Human/Cylon and Tyrol + Cally's kid, which is also Human/Cylon.

 

Yes, I noted that too. I guess that will later point to other differences between the seven known cylons and the final five. Haven't gotten there yet. I'm pretty sure Tyrol's son will also be significant, but except for Hera, the others have been left in the background so far.

 

And about the final cylon, D'Anna says four are in the fleet. However, then only humans she has seen at the time she says so are Helo - whom we know is not a cylon - and Roslin. And she did ask Roslin if she knew she was a cylon, didn't she? And come to think of it, didn't Roslin act confused as if she blacked out for a second when the fleet jumped to the nebula at the end of season three, when Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders found out they were cylons. Then again, there is evidence to contradict that as well, assuming Moore has been consistent and known who the final cylon was.

How can we know Helo is not a Cylon?

 

Well, it would make the entire story arc about Hera pointless.

[Jediphile]

Why is there no talk about the full Cylon child? That's going to be interesting.

 

Edit: If they have time for it.

 

which full Cylon child?

 

You have Hera (I never quite understood if it's Caprica 6 + Baltar's or Athena + Halo's?) which is Human/Cylon and Tyrol + Cally's kid, which is also Human/Cylon.

 

Yes, I noted that too. I guess that will later point to other differences between the seven known cylons and the final five. Haven't gotten there yet. I'm pretty sure Tyrol's son will also be significant, but except for Hera, the others have been left in the background so far.

 

And about the final cylon, D'Anna says four are in the fleet. However, then only humans she has seen at the time she says so are Helo - whom we know is not a cylon - and Roslin. And she did ask Roslin if she knew she was a cylon, didn't she? And come to think of it, didn't Roslin act confused as if she blacked out for a second when the fleet jumped to the nebula at the end of season three, when Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders found out they were cylons. Then again, there is evidence to contradict that as well, assuming Moore has been consistent and known who the final cylon was.

How can we know Helo is not a Cylon?

 

Well, it would make the entire story arc about Hera pointless.

 

For one thing, since the known cylons initially staged the relationships between Helo and Athena because they were unable to produce children among themselves.

 

Another reason is that Athena survived disease on the basestar in "A Measure of Salvation" early in the third season because she had conceived a child with a human, which somehow made her immune. Had Helo been a cylon, that could not have happened.

 

And I should correct myself. I thought the same episode established why Roslin cannot be a cylon, because she met one of the infected cylons and yet did not contract the disease. I was mistaken, though, because I forgot that Baltar injected Hera's blood into Roslin during "Epiphanies" half-way through season 2, so naturally she would be just as immune to the disease as Athena turned out to be.

 

And if you think it's a plothole that Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders were not affected by that disease, then nope - it's not, because conveniently (and perhaps a little too conveniently), none of them ever met an infected cylon in that episode. The same disease also establishes why Baltar cannot be a cylon, since in the preceding episode, "Torn", the cylons sent him to investigate the disease on an infected basestar precisely because he was immune as a human.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Jediphile

[Tale]

How can we know Helo is not a Cylon?

 

Well, it would make the entire story arc about Hera pointless.

 

For one thing, since the known cylons initially staged the relationships between Helo and Athena because they were unable to produce children among themselves.

 

Another reason is that Athena survived disease on the basestar in "A Measure of Salvation" early in the third season because she had conceived a child with a human, which somehow made her immune. Had Helo been a cylon, that could not have happened.

 

And I should correct myself. I thought the same episode established why Roslin cannot be a cylon, because she met one of the infected cylons and yet did not contract the disease. I was mistaken, though, because I forgot that Baltar injected Hera's blood into Roslin during "Epiphanies" half-way through season 2, so naturally she would be just as immune to the disease as Athena turned out to be.

 

And if you think it's a plothole that Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders were not affected by that disease, then nope - it's not, because conveniently (and perhaps a little too conveniently), none of them ever met an infected cylon in that episode. The same disease also establishes why Baltar cannot be a cylon, since in the preceding episode, "Torn", the cylons sent him to investigate the disease on an infected basestar precisely because he was immune as a human.

 

All of this is debunked by the fact that the final five are close enough to human themselves that they can manage to have children with other Cylons (RE: Tigh+Six). This outright refutes your first point. Accepting this, it's easily possible that they also have the same immunity. Because the final five are different.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Tale

[Jediphile]

How can we know Helo is not a Cylon?

 

Well, it would make the entire story arc about Hera pointless.

 

For one thing, since the known cylons initially staged the relationships between Helo and Athena because they were unable to produce children among themselves.

 

Another reason is that Athena survived disease on the basestar in "A Measure of Salvation" early in the third season because she had conceived a child with a human, which somehow made her immune. Had Helo been a cylon, that could not have happened.

 

And I should correct myself. I thought the same episode established why Roslin cannot be a cylon, because she met one of the infected cylons and yet did not contract the disease. I was mistaken, though, because I forgot that Baltar injected Hera's blood into Roslin during "Epiphanies" half-way through season 2, so naturally she would be just as immune to the disease as Athena turned out to be.

 

And if you think it's a plothole that Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders were not affected by that disease, then nope - it's not, because conveniently (and perhaps a little too conveniently), none of them ever met an infected cylon in that episode. The same disease also establishes why Baltar cannot be a cylon, since in the preceding episode, "Torn", the cylons sent him to investigate the disease on an infected basestar precisely because he was immune as a human.

 

All of this is debunked by the fact that the final five are close enough to human themselves that they can manage to have children with other Cylons (RE: Tigh+Six). This outright refutes your first point. Accepting this, it's easily possible that they also have the same immunity. Because the final five are different.

 

And exactly by which basis do you proceed to postulate that the final five have the same immunity? Just because the final five seem capable to reproduce with other cylons (and that is assuming Six's child is Tigh's, which we actually don't know either), it does not automatically follow that they must have the same immunity.

 

Hence you cannot refute the point. At most you can question it. The final five may different, but we don't know in what ways. They are different, but they are not a different species from the other cylon models we know. At least, I would not conclude so, since the "there are twelve models" bit then begins to border on the irrelevant.

 

The cylons changed when they were confronted with mortality, and at least four of the final have always been faced with that. That might just as well be what allows them to have children - as long as they retain immortality they cannot reproduce, but when they accept mortality they gain the ability to do so. Granted, that is a supposition too, but it is just as valid as yours. Besides, if we're to believe Cottle's conclusion in "A Measure of Salvation", humans are immune to the disease because it's fairly common to humanity, whereas it is totally unknown to the cylons, who thus have not developed the defense against it over the generations as humans have, because cylons have no generations, as they never reproduced, but just kept cloning the same originals over and over. No, that's not proof, because we can't have that, but it's what we're able to assume based on the clues we do have.

[Tale]

And exactly by which basis do you proceed to postulate that the final five have the same immunity?

I didn't say they had immunity. I said it's reasonable that they do. And you have no basis to claim for certainty that they don't. Thus, you don't know that they don't.

 

Just because the final five seem capable to reproduce with other cylons (and that is assuming Six's child is Tigh's, which we actually don't know either), it does not automatically follow that they must have the same immunity.

It does follow that they are different and that some different rules apply. Quite possibly, the human rules.

 

Hence you cannot refute the point. At most you can question it.

I refuted one point of yours. I called your other points into significant question that you can no longer say that Helo definitely can't be a Cylon.

 

The final five may different, but we don't know in what ways. They are different, but they are not a different species from the other cylon models we know. At least, I would not conclude so, since the "there are twelve models" bit then begins to border on the irrelevant.

They are already significantly different. You can't just draw an arbitrary border on what point you think makes them being one of the 12 models is irrelevant.

 

The cylons changed when they were confronted with mortality, and at least four of the final have always been faced with that. That might just as well be what allows them to have children - as long as they retain immortality they cannot reproduce, but when they accept mortality they gain the ability to do so. Granted, that is a supposition too, but it is just as valid as yours. Besides, if we're to believe Cottle's conclusion in "A Measure of Salvation", humans are immune to the disease because it's fairly common to humanity, whereas it is totally unknown to the cylons, who thus have not developed the defense against it over the generations as humans have, because cylons have no generations, as they never reproduced, but just kept cloning the same originals over and over. No, that's not proof, because we can't have that, but it's what we're able to assume based on the clues we do have.

All I'm saying is that the final five are different. Thus being different, you cannot say they have to follow the same rules as the original. Thus, you can't say Helo can't be one of them because he doesn't follow the same rules. I'm not saying they don't follow many of the the same rules or this particular rule. I'm saying you no longer have any basis to say that they do.

 

All I was doing was calling into question. With it called into question, Helo is then a possibility.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Tale

[Humodour]

I agree with Tale. I think you're reading too much into things Jediphile. The writers HAVE completely contradicted themselves in the past (what happened to the glowing red spine?), and continue to do so. Moreover, a great portion of the story is made up as they go (relatively speaking). As nice as it is to debate fan theories, I don't think it's wise to hold so much faith in them.

 

For example, you need only look at the number of open questions which instead of being resolved have simply been brushed under the carpet, so to speak (with little hope for recourse as the plot has moved away from them).

 

And as for the disease... a disease like that would infect humans. They may be immune, but it would still infect them. As such, any Cylon on the fleet would also be infected by it soon enough. But do we really want to apply logic here? You can hear sound in the vacuum of space for Christ's sake.

[Jediphile]

And exactly by which basis do you proceed to postulate that the final five have the same immunity?

I didn't say they had immunity. I said it's reasonable that they do.

 

Why? I have argued why I do not think so. You may question that, but the discussion is unfair if you will not be called to do the same..

 

And you have no basis to claim for certainty that they don't. Thus, you don't know that they don't.

 

I don't know for fact that they do, no. However, I can speculative and have stated why. You, however, say that it is reasonable that they do, only you feel justified in doing so without providing any basis to do so, while calling mine into question. If you cannot or will not provide any observations in support of your position, then you have no argument. You might as well argue Tigh is actually God and the whole series is his dream or some such.

 

Just because the final five seem capable to reproduce with other cylons (and that is assuming Six's child is Tigh's, which we actually don't know either), it does not automatically follow that they must have the same immunity.

It does follow that they are different and that some different rules apply. Quite possibly, the human rules.

 

Again, why? They are not humans, but cylons. They are different from other cylons, yes, but why does that make them more like humans than like cylons? Where is your basis for reaching that conclusion?

 

Hence you cannot refute the point. At most you can question it.

I refuted one point of yours. I called your other points into significant question that you can no longer say that Helo definitely can't be a Cylon.

 

Actually, I can if I'm allowed to take what the episode tells me as factual in the discussion. The episode tells us that Athena, who is NOT one of the final five, has become immune because she had a child with a human - Helo. If that is to be a valid argument - made by the episode, not by me - then Helo must be human. QED. Unless, of course, you want to argue that he is "special" or that it doesn't apply if the person in question has given up his seat to a traitor to stay behind on a dying planet ravaged by nuclear winter beneath a moon made of cheese or whatever...

[Jediphile]

The final five may different, but we don't know in what ways. They are different, but they are not a different species from the other cylon models we know. At least, I would not conclude so, since the "there are twelve models" bit then begins to border on the irrelevant.

They are already significantly different. You can't just draw an arbitrary border on what point you think makes them being one of the 12 models is irrelevant.

 

I can draw a border between the spiritual and the physical. They ARE cylons physically. And we KNOW that cylons CAN reproduce, because Helo and Athena did, and Tyrol and Callie did as well. Now, even you dismiss Tyrol from that on the basis of him being one of the final five, Athena is still just one of the seven known models who up until her were unable to reproduce. That allows us to conclude that the inability to reproduce among the known cylons is not based on the physical, because she did not undergo a physical change or transformation in order to gain the ability to reproduce.

 

Besides, you're the one saying the final five are so different that it's reasonable to assume the have the same immunity as humans do, so who is drawing an arbitrary border here? After all, you still give no reason for why that assumption is reasonable, except "they are different", which you don't tell us is significant to your point in what way.

 

The cylons changed when they were confronted with mortality, and at least four of the final have always been faced with that. That might just as well be what allows them to have children - as long as they retain immortality they cannot reproduce, but when they accept mortality they gain the ability to do so. Granted, that is a supposition too, but it is just as valid as yours. Besides, if we're to believe Cottle's conclusion in "A Measure of Salvation", humans are immune to the disease because it's fairly common to humanity, whereas it is totally unknown to the cylons, who thus have not developed the defense against it over the generations as humans have, because cylons have no generations, as they never reproduced, but just kept cloning the same originals over and over. No, that's not proof, because we can't have that, but it's what we're able to assume based on the clues we do have.

All I'm saying is that the final five are different. Thus being different, you cannot say they have to follow the same rules as the original. Thus, you can't say Helo can't be one of them because he doesn't follow the same rules. I'm not saying they don't follow many of the the same rules or this particular rule. I'm saying you no longer have any basis to say that they do.

 

All I was doing was calling into question. With it called into question, Helo is then a possibility.

 

Only if you decide to ignore all the clues we've been given in the series. I have expained why. But naturally you still have provided no basis whatsoever for your position except "the final five are different." Am I not allowed to know what that basis is? Disagree with me, if you will. That's fine. But you do not provide counterarguments to support your position, I will assume you have none and consider your position flawed and wholly unsupported.

[Jediphile]

I agree with Tale. I think you're reading too much into things Jediphile. The writers HAVE completely contradicted themselves in the past (what happened to the glowing red spine?), and continue to do so.

 

Where? Sure, teh glowing spine is one example, but it's what I consider a "that didn't happen" kind of scene in that it is there to illustrate something to us as viewers, not to express something that happened in the plot. You can call that a plothole, but then we've also seen Roslin, Six and Athena chase after Hera in the opera house and Baltar being downloaded as a cylon, all of which we know are dreams. And the less said about Baltar's imaginary Six in this regard the better...

 

You may think I read too much into things. Fair enough. But I happen to like speculating about these things, and I don't think I'm doing anything wrong by posting my musings. If people don't like it or don't agree but don't want to argue it, then they are free to not read my posts or not reply to them or both.

 

Moreover, a great portion of the story is made up as they go (relatively speaking). As nice as it is to debate fan theories, I don't think it's wise to hold so much faith in them.

 

Moore is one of the more consistent guys around when it comes to this sort of thing. Maybe not Straczynsky, but DS9's plot was fairly solid if examined. But be assured I'll be calling foul, if he begins contradicting himself wildly. I recently pointed to Galactica going to the carnage of The Hub's destruction and then getting back to the fleet soon enough to make Apollo president and lots of things, while the basestar itself got there much later in spite of allegedly jumping back right away. A very minor plothole, but not terribly consistent nonetheless. Didn't ruin the story, though, which is more important to me.

 

For example, you need only look at the number of open questions which instead of being resolved have simply been brushed under the carpet, so to speak (with little hope for recourse as the plot has moved away from them).

 

Such as?

 

And as for the disease... a disease like that would infect humans. They may be immune, but it would still infect them. As such, any Cylon on the fleet would also be infected by it soon enough. But do we really want to apply logic here? You can hear sound in the vacuum of space for Christ's sake.

 

Yes, we want to apply logic, because that's how we solve puzzles. Battlestar Galactica is a puzzle. Who is the last cylon? What has happened to Earth? What happened to Starbuck when she apparently died? I like speculating about these things. If you don't, then fair enough, but don't tell me I can't.

 

As for this disease, we can argue it would not spread if it was so insignificant to humans that it was immediately or very quicked destroyed by the human immune system. And that's just one possibility.