If the melee combat works similarly to Resident Evil 4, where you have only a limited amount of actions to perform to counter and attack, but often incapable killing the enemies, is something I am able to accept.

 

There is no doubt like Pop said, there will be close encounters with the alien and the player must be given a chance to defend himself. Otherwise if there are too many one hit kill moments, the game just turns into no fun.

 

Perhaps a mini game during the struggle with the alien in melee to push it away from the player before it delivers its deadly tongue/tail deadly attack would work nicely I think.

A small chance to wiggle out and take some damage but survive, but no winning a boxing match with an Alien.

A small chance to wiggle out and take some damage but survive, but no winning a boxing match with an Alien.

 

Melee combat in an Alien game... how can it be anything other than watching your enthrails being torn out, your liver exploding and your rib cage splintered, very noisily and graphically?

 

(followed by slurping noises from the cat, lapping up the goodies on the floor)

Yeah, I can see it now. Our hero has nothing but a crowbar, cleverly handed to him at the beginning of the game and every expansion.

 

Now, the boxing match as it happened between Weaver and the "bitch" in Aliens is acceptible. However, I'm with Gorgon and Gorth in terms of a standup fist-fight between the humans and the Aliens reeks of outright stupidity.

If we're going to have teams of NPCs, it might make sense to have a grace period. Like, if you manage to get yourself pinned by an Alien, you have X amount of time for somebody to "help" it off of you. Of course you'd take good damage with the blood and all, but it's better than outright death. Considering this thing's going to be designed for consoles (right?) you could even make it one of those QTEs that are so popular these days.

Or possible feats you can take when you level up that grants you better chances to struggle free from the alien, or a chance to completely dodge from the attack, or half the damage received from the attack.

 

Sweet.

All these melee combat mechanics discussion, are we seriously seriously going to have melee combat in Aliens RPG?

 

If that is so, it just feels so wrong. It doesn't feel like Aliens to me.

 

So do all here think that there wont be any other enemies than aliens?

Hell, there might even be other types of aliens. I'm sure we don't know all the tricks. ...But, in asmuchas the PC fights aliens, I'll hope the game provides more than a crowbar as the means to do so. I'd hope that my suspension of disbelief doesn't call for me to believe the PC can somehow manage to lay the WWF beatdown on aliens.

Uber charged cattle prod to stun the aliens a little.

I would prefer first person view, no melee combat at all (at least not against aliens) and a skill system not unlike the ones seen in Deus Ex. Some people in this thread are saying that the shooting mechanics in Deus Ex was bad. I strongly disagree. Deus Ex managed to pull off stat based combat in first person view without that horrible Morrowind effect (swords through skulls and still miss). Instead of making it look like you hit a target and calculate a miss, Deus Ex made your aiming reticule HUGE if you had low shooting skill. That meant that when you fired your gun, you knew the bullet would end up somewhere inside that reticule but since it was so huge, it would effectively mean a miss.. unless you moved closer to your target. If you used a scope, Deus Ex simulated an unsteady hand by moving the camera around.. unless you improved your skill which lessened the camera movement. I thought it was a brilliant system.

 

By the way, the only way I could see melee working in a Aliens universe is if you get to man the forklift-robot from Aliens. That would solve the problem of camera view too: just treat the robot as a vehicle and switch to third person view. A lot of games use first person view when on foot but switch to third person view in vehicles. Personally, I think that's the best system.

Wombat, I confess I wasn't addressing you so much as the underlying idea of "visceral combat." I like the idea of using players actions, as opposed to player builds, as key to in game consequences. However, there will be builds. You've made a couple of suggestions, such as premade characters/parties. That's fine, but it does diminish player choice. I don't necessarily think that's bad, but I wonder what Sawyer has to say about how "visceral combat" stacks against "player choice." He has, as far as I've understood, maintained the prime importance of choice in CRPGs.

I guess my understanding is not so different from yours: I think J.E. Sawyer is saying that there should be a sweet spot between character-builds and visceral game play to make a satisfying core game play experience, which is, presumably, one of the goals of Aliens RPG. I am asking him not to forget about the feel of the movie(s). Here, I am not talking of cannon but about the feel. In short, the balance I questioned is not between stat simulation and visceral gameplay but between adrenaline-rushing fun and the feel of the Alien movies.

 

All these melee combat mechanics discussion, are we seriously seriously going to have melee combat in Aliens RPG?

 

If that is so, it just feels so wrong. It doesn't feel like Aliens to me.

 

So do all here think that there wont be any other enemies than aliens?

There should be other obstacles including human-beings. Full-fledged Aliens should not be beatable with melee.

 

If the idea is to create a character/party where the only input the player has in the creation process is a menu choice at the beginning of the game, then we've solved the problem. We don't have to worry about player choices if we deny them any throughout the game.

As I have already written, Fall Out style of premade characters ranging from a combatant, a rogue and a diplomat would be fine (a scientist may make a nice addition, though). The system allowed players to customize their own builds, too. Aliens team probably have some ideas on this. However, they probably wouldn't like to scare off non stat simulation game fans and it would be suitable for the team to prepare a way to introduce them directly into more captivating gameplay.

 

This is a bit different take on the topic but predefined characters in terms of story have its merit story-wise like in the Witcher. Furthermore, if the players are able to choose a protagonist from a few characters, it would be interesting. When they play different characters, they can enjoy different views to the core story like in Fahrenheit. This would range from predefined characters to selectable backgrounds, though. I am asking for the possibility since it makes the story more integrated. In fact, what's the point in the freedom in the name of the characters and the appearances if they have no effects on the game-play? Some of the over-used RPG cliche is due to the compromise between the story and the freedom of choosing the character name/appearances: Players may be able to customize their characters as female elven mages, male dwarven fighters, or male human birds, but still ends up being tagged as a chosen one. Letting the player choose different story tag by predefined characters or background settings would be interesting in a story-driven role-playing game, I think.

 

Now, as far as stealth in Oblivion: I agree with you that the stealth model was reasonable. However, the focus of this thread has been combat, not stealth.

J.E. Sawyer asked us to cite what we expect in Aliens RPG. So, I take this thread is for more general aspect. If someone feel like to talk about combat, it is fine and we can always create a more specialized thread. Also, I was not talking of stealth but of the feel. For, considering what I saw Alien movies, I'd like to avoid direct confrontation to them as much as possible and if I don't get that feel from Aliens RPG, I think a part of the feel is broken. Of course, I am open to a certain level of compromises, though. After all, they are not making a game exclusively for me or another forum member.

 

In regards to your posts, they've all seemed reasonable and intelligent to me, even where I've disagreed with them. Everyone in this thread is advocating a position. I respect that and I think arguments, by the mass, have been good. That's all I'm doing. :Cant's friendly grin icon:

As for communication skills on the net, I think we cannot blame each other. Seeing the current trend in the game industry, I feel the designers may be simply watching stats on the play information gathered through the net than reading forum posts. In fact, Valve and Microsoft use the system which gather the detailed information on how gamers played games. If you see the "achievement" system of X360, you can glance at how detailed the system would be. I was surprised by the number of check items in the lists and they must be just tips of the iceberg of the information they are gathering. I feel forum may be getting more and more obsolete in the game development. At least, for gameplay, especially visceral one, I admit the mechanically gathered information is much more efficient than reading forum posts although in terms of the content such as story and feel, I think the designers still needs to read some comments. I have this feeling (or sentiment) of long-beloved games are going to be extinct and we are going to see more similar products as a result of mass-marketing. This is why I think gamers who are fun of these aspects need to blush up our communication skills.

 

Deus Ex managed to pull off stat based combat in first person view without that horrible Morrowind effect (swords through skulls and still miss).

? I searched the net a bit and skill description says that the weapon skills both affects the damage and the hit ratio. I guess it must be my misunderstanding, then. I built a melee character but I feel it's a long time ago.

Deus Ex managed to pull off stat based combat in first person view without that horrible Morrowind effect (swords through skulls and still miss).

? I searched the net a bit and skill description says that the weapon skills both affects the damage and the hit ratio. I guess it must be my misunderstanding, then. I built a melee character but I feel it's a long time ago.

As opposed to the generally terrible Morrowind or Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines combat, in Deus Ex the PC's skill with a weapon influenced combat in a more honest way. Like Sawyer (?) said, in Bloodlines you could be pointing straight at something fully encompassing the aiming reticle and still miss wildly. In Deus Ex, the aiming reticle is more or less exactly the field of possible locations for your bullet to go, and your skill with the weapon determines how small the reticle is and how fast it closes the gap from least accurate to most accurate (as when aiming immediately after running), as well as influencing things like stability while in zoom and in the case of heavy weapons, how maneuverable you are while wielding them. It worked out pretty well, all things considered.

There's some good stuff here, but it's getting a wee bit confused, gentlemen. Some of the dieas deserve their own threads; but I shall leave this to your discretion.

J.E. Sawyer asked us to cite what we expect in Aliens RPG.

I know this isn't a "wishlist", and I am not sure what to expect. If I were to describe my hopes however, it would be a 2009 version of X-Com: Enemy unknown. Nice story, lots of spooky atmosphere, squad based missions and so on.

combat intense 1st person pov always ends up leaving Gromnir feels like he is playing a shooter... and Gromnir not like shooters. give us 3rd person pov... and not just 3rd person pov. want a strategic/tactical pov. twitchy reflex testing games is shooters and adventure games and is kinda defeating the point and distinction o what is a rpg. might as well call madden football a rpg if twitchy reflex controls is not distinguishing. sure, madden and those racing games is having rpg elements as they allow you to build teams and cars, but then you gotta rely on the twitchy skills o' the player to determine success or failure.

 

bah.

 

give us strategy and tactics... and flush the twitch.

 

oh, and am not sure how our character or characters is gonna improve, but if josh falls back on some bass ackwards model whereby individual actions (likes kills or picked locks or disarmed booby traps) result in xp awards, then we is gonna be mighty disappointed. is one of the most common approaches and one of the most asinine too.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the aliens universe sucks, but the worst damn source material can result in a good game... just so long as you don't feels like you gotta be a slave to cannon. the freaking alien movies were all over the map anyways, so whole notion o' aliens cannon seems laughable in any event.

Edited November 20, 200718 yr by Gromnir

I may have mentioned this before, but I think one of the appealing aspects of the Aliens universe is that the movies really are pretty bare-bones about what the setting is like. It's more about the immediate setting and situation than a detailed intergalactic industrial/political environment.

I may have mentioned this before, but I think one of the appealing aspects of the Aliens universe is that the movies really are pretty bare-bones about what the setting is like. It's more about the immediate setting and situation than a detailed intergalactic industrial/political environment.

 

I'm very happy to hear this. I cannot express how tired I am of confusing and often incomprehensible preestablished RPG fantasy lore.

I may have mentioned this before, but I think one of the appealing aspects of the Aliens universe is that the movies really are pretty bare-bones about what the setting is like. It's more about the immediate setting and situation than a detailed intergalactic industrial/political environment.

 

I'm very happy to hear this. I cannot express how tired I am of confusing and often incomprehensible preestablished RPG fantasy lore.

 

Have you tried the medium of interpretive dance? And if you do, can you youtube it?

Aliens told through interpretive dance?

 

If its Natalie Portman, lets go for it!

 

ps the aliens universe sucks, but the worst damn source material can result in a good game... just so long as you don't feels like you gotta be a slave to cannon. the freaking alien movies were all over the map anyways, so whole notion o' aliens cannon seems laughable in any event.

I don't disagree and I am not a Sci-Fi fan, neither. In fact, I think what makes Alien(s) a cult classic is the through art direction, visual effects and the moody feel (In any case, I think there should be good lighting effects). Also, if I have to repeat, I am not talking of cannon but I think the feel of being trapped with overwhelming "horrible" creatures is an important essence of the movies. At least, it should not be "epic" adventure in the Forgotten Realms and Star Wars universe. Personally, I am so tired of "epic" cliche in CRPGs with a superhuman protagonist and absurd "leveling-up", which is not necessarily related with role-playing (I didn't make a comment on this blog entry since I am totally agree with him). I hope Aliens RPG team would do something with the widely accepted CRPG image.

 

I may have mentioned this before, but I think one of the appealing aspects of the Aliens universe is that the movies really are pretty bare-bones about what the setting is like. It's more about the immediate setting and situation than a detailed intergalactic industrial/political environment.

Agreed.

 

J.E. Sawyer asked us to cite what we expect in Aliens RPG.

I know this isn't a "wishlist", and I am not sure what to expect. If I were to describe my hopes however, it would be a 2009 version of X-Com: Enemy unknown. Nice story, lots of spooky atmosphere, squad based missions and so on.

In fact, you wrote down your personal wishlist immediately after you wrote this isn't a "wishlist." What else we can do with the information? Some assumptions and expectations are unavoidable considering the current amount of information provided. I have my very vague assumptions from some blog entries by the designers here, though.

 

There's some good stuff here, but it's getting a wee bit confused, gentlemen. Some of the dieas deserve their own threads; but I shall leave this to your discretion.

I see. That would be more to the point, I think.

In fact, you wrote down your personal wishlist immediately after you wrote this isn't a "wishlist." What else we can do with the information?

I know. Completely shameless, am I not?

 

I just couldn't figure out how to sneak isometric perspective and turnbased combat in there :sad:

 

Joking aside, I *am* curious about what direction the game is going in.

I may have mentioned this before, but I think one of the appealing aspects of the Aliens universe is that the movies really are pretty bare-bones about what the setting is like. It's more about the immediate setting and situation than a detailed intergalactic industrial/political environment.

 

I'm very happy to hear this. I cannot express how tired I am of confusing and often incomprehensible preestablished RPG fantasy lore.

 

Have you tried the medium of interpretive dance? And if you do, can you youtube it?

 

Can't I just burn some 900 page poorly written fantasy novels?

ps the aliens universe sucks, but the worst damn source material can result in a good game... just so long as you don't feels like you gotta be a slave to cannon. the freaking alien movies were all over the map anyways, so whole notion o' aliens cannon seems laughable in any event.

 

I emphatically agree. I personally think the Aliens universe gives them something akin to a room full of big different coloured light-weight balls... where they are a bunch of children obviously. Is this getting through? I'm trying to say that the setting is their playground. Any setting with clearly defined worlds, cultures, creatures, races, etc is a pretty big restriction on creativity in many ways.

 

On a possibly unrelated note, has anybody read any of the books by Peter F Hamilton? He writes space operas. He's written 3 trilogies so far (one still in progress). I think he covers a few themes in interesting ways (aliens, space travel, nanotechnology, transgenics, organic machines, bionics, cultural perceptions in the future...).

I may have mentioned this before, but I think one of the appealing aspects of the Aliens universe is that the movies really are pretty bare-bones about what the setting is like. It's more about the immediate setting and situation than a detailed intergalactic industrial/political environment.

 

I'm very happy to hear this. I cannot express how tired I am of confusing and often incomprehensible preestablished RPG fantasy lore.

 

Have you tried the medium of interpretive dance? And if you do, can you youtube it?

 

Can't I just burn some 900 page poorly written fantasy novels?

I think you should soak them in orange juice, freeze them, and then fling them by hand at the author's pointy head.

Hmm. Ever tried making a paper aeroplane, wetting it (without hurting structural integrity... or shape as it were), freezing them, THEN throwing them at people? I'm gonna go try that.

 

EDIT: Easiest way to maintain structural integrity during the freezing process may be to place the aeorplane in a dish of water, let osmotic pressure wet the plane, then take it out and place in the freezer on a new, dry plate. Let me test this.

Edited November 21, 200718 yr by Krezack