Mask of the Betrayer Redux

[Tale]

But if you simply write Star Wars and change the names of characters, what's the point?

I'd like to ask Christopher Paolini that question.

[Pop]

So out of honest curiousity, can anyone explain to me how the Spirit Meter system punishes meleers?

As you lose spirit energy, you take penalties to your physical stats, and I think that's what Gorgon was referring to. Spellcasters shouldn't concievably be hit as hard by that.

[Azarkon]

I'd like to ask Christopher Paolini that question.

 

 

Well, to be fair, he doesn't just steal from Star Wars...

[Cantousent]

By comparison, a clone is... Worthless. It adds nothing. Sure, you might enjoy it, but if the work is really a clone, you might as well replay the source. It'd have the same effect.

 

Of course, most works considered "clones" are not actually clones, but re-tellings with various degrees of originality, whether they be in plot, writing, graphics, or what-have-you.

 

I disagree. I don't see a bad original idea (which is almost certainly not even original anyhow) as somehow better than a bad retelling. Originality, technique, setting, etc. are all part of a larger whole, which is the end result. The problem is that, even in the most original idea, there are shared elements drawn from human existence that allow critics to cite the "derivative" nature of the work. "Originality" is no better innoculation to failure than any other approach.

 

I'm not saying that originality is bad. I'm saying that I have come to despise attempts the insipid attempts at originality that have nothing new to add to the measure of human ideas. A bad original idea is no better than a good clone. In fact, I'd say, it's worse. At least a good clone brings memories of a better work. A bad attempt at originality will likely taint further endeavors to explore similar ideas.

[Spider]

So out of honest curiousity, can anyone explain to me how the Spirit Meter system punishes meleers?

As you lose spirit energy, you take penalties to your physical stats, and I think that's what Gorgon was referring to. Spellcasters shouldn't concievably be hit as hard by that.

 

Yeah, of course. Didn't think about that.

[Azarkon]

I disagree. I don't see a bad original idea (which is almost certainly not even original anyhow) as somehow better than a bad retelling. Originality, technique, setting, etc. are all part of a larger whole, which is the end result. The problem is that, even in the most original idea, there are shared elements drawn from human existence that allow critics to cite the "derivative" nature of the work. "Originality" is no better innoculation to failure than any other approach.

 

I'm not saying that originality is bad. I'm saying that I have come to despise attempts the insipid attempts at originality that have nothing new to add to the measure of human ideas. A bad original idea is no better than a good clone. In fact, I'd say, it's worse. At least a good clone brings memories of a better work. A bad attempt at originality will likely taint further endeavors to explore similar ideas.

 

I disagree. A "good" clone (in my mind, there's no such thing) is the one that'll taint further endeavors to explore similar ideas. In fact, that's arguably the biggest problem facing the entertainment industry today, with companies like EA pumping out sports clones by the dozen that, while quality products in and of themselves, offer nothing new to their respective genres. Yes, if you change a few names around in FIFA, add a tweak here, fix a bug there, it's still a good game. Problem is, it's still the same good game, in which case there is no inherent value to what you've done. The tragedy is that sports fans will lap up these "re-releases" and justify their perpetuation, thus stifling the need for innovation, resulting in stagnancy. To me that's far worse than trying to be original and ending up with a dud. At least then you'll have learned what doesn't work, which is itself useful knowledge and helps advance the genre. And who knows? For every ten bad ideas you might get a good one, at which point it all becomes worth it.

 

So to reiterate, I'd rather play a bad, but original game, then a clone of any quality. The former is, at the very least, a toss-up, whereas the latter is inevitably a waste of my time because I've seen it all before. That's not to say that you should never re-release titles, because game companies are, after all, businesses, but it is to say that these re-releases have no actual worth outside of the financial realm.

 

Careful with the terminology, though; re-tellings are a bit different, since they typically are innovative in at least some ways. That makes them interesting and worthwhile to go through again, unlike clones. And you're right, with respect to re-tellings, that it's likely better to tell a good story somewhat differently than tell an original, but bad story. But that argument only works when there's enough originality to make the experience fresh; otherwise you can just replay the original game, which is what makes clones worthless.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Azarkon

[Cantousent]

If the term "clone" is thrown around freely, then the term "original" has lost all meaning. What constitutes an "original" idea? Most of the folks determined to find something "different" get caught in the net of shared human existence, in which virtually all ideas have been explored. If that's the sole goal, then the end product is not original and certainly not good.

 

I know that we're actually very close on the broader issue. It's the fine point that sticks. The reason it does is simple. I don't want to encourage folks who try "different" for its own sake. I don't want to encourage folks with such narrow tastes that anything that isn't abberant is too "mainstream" to warrant praise. Our core ideas aren't particularly different, as usual, but our approach is. I guess that's what makes the debate so engaging.

 

Nevertheless, that slight variation on approach is enough to set us worlds apart. Regardless of our approach, however, it's been clear to me, over time, that we enjoy many of the same games, so maybe there is enough convergence that we can find common ground.

[Zoma]

Someone mind helping me recall what did George Ziets work on and as before he joined Obsidian?

 

If there is ever an NX2 in progress, I'm interested in him working on the story with his dynamic duo, Kevin Saunders, again.

[J.E. Sawyer]

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/v...eloperId,83003/

 

That and D&D Online.

 

I remember that someone on these boards wrote something to the effect of Feargus being dumb for putting an MMO designer in charge of the story for NX1.

 

gg

[Oerwinde]

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/v...eloperId,83003/

 

That and D&D Online.

 

I remember that someone on these boards wrote something to the effect of Feargus being dumb for putting an MMO designer in charge of the story for NX1.

 

gg

 

I remember that. I bet he's having a nice helping of crow right now.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Oerwinde

[Gromnir]

eta on the patch?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Azarkon]

Nevertheless, that slight variation on approach is enough to set us worlds apart. Regardless of our approach, however, it's been clear to me, over time, that we enjoy many of the same games, so maybe there is enough convergence that we can find common ground.

 

I think you're right. All I'm saying is that a developer should always try to bring something new to the table, not that he must strive to be as different as possible. If you want to tell a traditional, humble-farmer-becomes-epic-hero story, fine. But present it in a new way, put a slight twist on it, bring in unconventional NPCs, etc., so that those of us who's played dozens of games like those won't yawn through the whole thing predicting everything that's going to happen. That, incidentally, is why I love Obsidian games so much - because they always bring something new to the experience.

[Wombat]

Basically, I think any system should be trough to yield the desired results whatever the design purposes may be. Unfortunately, some Obsidian home-baked mechanisms don't seem to fit some of AD&D mechanisms at times despite of the effort of the design team. And yet, personally, I value their effort since I find AD&D system dominant enough to clog up the creativity of the designers. I'd like to wait how Alien RPG turns out, where they have much more freedom in this respect.

 

However, I have a question: Both influence system and spirit-eater mechanism are ambitious but at the same time, to my eyes, they seem to be rather game-y, giving an impression that they are unnecessarily complicated as a story-telling mechanism. I'd like to know why Obsidian choose to implement these kinds of mechanisms rather than simply utilize tags in dialog/quest systems, taking an approach which is probably more akin to interactive novels.

 

Just for the record, I have to confess that I haven't played MotB although I will when I find more time.

[Gorgon]

Does anyone know if I can use the console to get me back to neutral good, I have now somehow become lawful good, so I can\t advance as a druid anymore, and no prestige classes are available.

 

As annoying as the spirit eater thing is, I\m still liking the game and would prefer not having to start over.

[Pop]

Word to wise warlock players (I couldn't think of a W word for "player" ) invest heavily in spellcraft. I was wondering if my warlock would've been able to stand in the later game, since tougher enemies have better saves, but the "epic eldritch blast" or whatever takes you from a decent damage-dealer (I was forced to use eldritch chain) to an actual force to be reckoned with, instantly.

[jaguars4ever]

Does anyone know if I can use the console to get me back to neutral good, I have now somehow become lawful good, so I can\t advance as a druid anymore, and no prestige classes are available.

 

As annoying as the spirit eater thing is, I\m still liking the game and would prefer not having to start over.

Tell me about it. Try playing a chaotic good ranger or chaotic good warlock. You do the right thing (suppress) and eventually can't level up anymore.

 

[Enable console: DebugMode 1]

 

Lawful shift: rs ga_alignment(x,1)

 

Chaotic shift: rs ga_alignment(-x,1)

 

Good shift: rs ga_alignment(x,0)

 

Evil shift: rs ga_alignment(-x,0)

 

Where |x| = {1, 2, 3, 4}

 

Nb: |x| for {2, 3, 4} correlates to a 3 pt, 10 pt, & 70 pt alignment shift, respectively.

Edited October 27, 2007 by jaguars4ever

[Tale]

Who says supress is the "right" thing! You're chaotic! DEVOUR YOUR ENEMIES!

Edited October 27, 2007 by Tale

[Hurlshort]

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/v...eloperId,83003/

 

That and D&D Online.

 

I remember that someone on these boards wrote something to the effect of Feargus being dumb for putting an MMO designer in charge of the story for NX1.

 

gg

 

Lord of the Rings Online is actually one of the best written games I've played bar none. The epic quest line is as good or better than most single player RPG's I've played.

[jaguars4ever]

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/v...eloperId,83003/

 

That and D&D Online.

 

I remember that someone on these boards wrote something to the effect of Feargus being dumb for putting an MMO designer in charge of the story for NX1.

 

gg

 

Lord of the Rings Online is actually one of the best written games I've played bar none. The epic quest line is as good or better than most single player RPG's I've played.

Can this "epic quest line" be played offline free from the machinations of h4x0rz and powergaming emos?

[Gorgon]

MMOGs would be great if not for all those idiot other players.

[Pop]

Does anyone know if I can use the console to get me back to neutral good, I have now somehow become lawful good, so I can\t advance as a druid anymore, and no prestige classes are available.

 

As annoying as the spirit eater thing is, I\m still liking the game and would prefer not having to start over.

Tell me about it. Try playing a chaotic good ranger or chaotic good warlock. You do the right thing (suppress) and eventually can't level up anymore.

 

[Enable console: DebugMode 1]

 

Lawful shift: rs ga_alignment(x,1)

 

Chaotic shift: rs ga_alignment(-x,1)

 

Good shift: rs ga_alignment(x,0)

 

Evil shift: rs ga_alignment(-x,0)

 

Where |x| = {1, 2, 3, 4}

 

Nb: |x| for {2, 3, 4} correlates to a 3 pt, 10 pt, & 70 pt alignment shift, respectively.

Tried the DebugMode thing (playing as a Warlock, craving's going up and alignment's shifting to Lawful) and all it did was make all the triggers on the map visible, such that I couldn't actually move anywhere. I r confuzzled.

[jaguars4ever]

Did you remember to toggle the debugger off?

 

~

DebugMode 0

[Pop]

Nuttin'

[jaguars4ever]

Okay, explain to me what exactly is going on on the screen.

[Sand]

eta on the patch?

 

HA! Good Fun!

When its done.