Why is the NWN2 modding scene so.... meh?

[Dark_Raven]

Seeing that you can't install custom content or edit it like make the romances better, or even make your own custom npcs with romances, NWN2 has turned off a lot of modders, especially those from the IE modding scene. Its beyond me why they have the game set up like that. That is one of the great things with the IE games is being able to edit or add into the original game.

 

Seeing that there are a few developers that read this board, perhaps one can speak out on why you can't mod the original NWN2 game like you can with the IE games?

[Guard Dog]

Seeing that you can't install custom content or edit it like make the romances better, or even make your own custom npcs with romances, NWN2 has turned off a lot of modders, especially those from the IE modding scene. Its beyond me why they have the game set up like that. That is one of the great things with the IE games is being able to edit or add into the original game.

 

Seeing that there are a few developers that read this board, perhaps one can speak out on why you can't mod the original NWN2 game like you can with the IE games?

Well, actually you CAN modify the OC. There were a few mods that did in in NWN1. Like the one that made Mischa real henchman in SoU. But it is not a simple process compared to the IE games or the ES games. It would require making the hak with the mods, saving a copy of the OC modules, attaching the hak then the modified mod could be downloaded. In NWN2 the modules are so large it would not be practical.

 

Actually I like the NWN 1 & 2 modding concept better because it is more flexible. If all that could be modded in NWN1 was the OC then we would not be talking about NWN2 today because NWN would have gone nowhere with just the out of box OC. The toolset made that game what it was.

[Sand]

The difference between the IE games and the NWN games is that NWN games aren't made to let you modify the existing OC but to make your own adventures from scratch. You can make custom items, new NPCs, and the like but in your own module.

[Schazzwozzer]

You know, this bit about Infinity Engine/Elder Scrolls type modding versus Neverwinter Nights modding is actually really interesting. I understand why the Neverwinter Nights series has taken the approach it has -- because one of the central selling points is that users are able to author their own Dungeons and Dragons modules. However, I think the IE/Elder Scrolls approach is probably superior.

 

The major reason is that completely new, authorial modifications (i.e. entirely new modules) are almost always going to be more difficult to create than additive ones (a mod that simply adds a new creature, NPC, or item). For this reason, among others, the majority of modifications are going to be smaller, additive ones. It makes sense then to implement a system that will make it easier for the majority of modders and end-users.

 

It's interesting to note that, even though the NWN2 OC isn't as free-roaming or expansive as an Elder Scrolls or even Baldur's Gate, and the game itself is not set up to support it, a lot of the most popular modifications are still additive ones. Look at what is one of the most popular haks on NWVault. That's an additive release. It allows players to have their female characters in the NWN2 OC (and any module, I imagine) half-naked.

 

This is a problem though because additive content uses the Override directory. I won't go into it here, but this is not a user-friendly solution and is a giant headache to mod authors, because it's MUCH more prone to bugs and conflicts.

 

By the way, for Morrowind and Oblivion (and I think for the Infinity Engine games, but I am not certain), you CAN create you own entirely new worlds. Yes, it's more difficult than with the Neverwinter Nights games, but I expect that anyone SERIOUSLY commited to authoring their own epic role-playing experience will overcome those hurdles anyway.

[Sand]

Well, I prefer NWN2's tools system over Oblivion's. I can create an area pretty quickly and modify it far simply than Oblivion's. I just think that the lack being able to modify the OC is what is hampering the mod scene for NWN2. Personally I think those talented modders of the IE games should try to make their own adventurers instead of tacking on stuff on someone else's.

[Volourn]

"The difference between the IE games and the NWN games is that NWN games aren't made to let you modify the existing OC but to make your own adventures from scratch. You can make custom items, new NPCs, and the like but in your own module."

 

You can edit the OCs if you want. Nothing is stopping you.

[Lokey]

Well, actually you CAN modify the OC. There were a few mods that did in in NWN1. Like the one that made Mischa real henchman in SoU. But it is not a simple process compared to the IE games or the ES games. It would require making the hak with the mods, saving a copy of the OC modules, attaching the hak then the modified mod could be downloaded. In NWN2 the modules are so large it would not be practical.

 

Actually I like the NWN 1 & 2 modding concept better because it is more flexible. If all that could be modded in NWN1 was the OC then we would not be talking about NWN2 today because NWN would have gone nowhere with just the out of box OC. The toolset made that game what it was.

In general, putting the few hours into learning what the various file types are, what crappy community tools are available to edit them and what they do makes modding easier and lets you build much faster. ERFs are so 2002 (that's the format for hak, mod, erf) If I were distributing a change in an NWN1 OC in hak form, I'd probably recommend people use the hak editor in the utils folder to swap a modified module.ifo file into the module after backing up the original of course (that's where module level settings are kept), and playing with the hak list in the NWN1 official tools is a nightmare besides.

 

Off the top of my head for NWN2:

 

- If you want to adjust some scripts or conversations: simply dump those (small in file size) resources into the campaign folder. That could handle romances, cutscenes, a few other types of things easily, but might result in an unpatchable game if the user didn't say back up the original OC campaign directory like of course you would say to do

 

- Like Bio stuff, many things are instanced to their specific area. This means you can't change a very small text file to change say all lichy guys Garius hangs with or the red dragon with the ~10kb file that's needed to do the job (the utc file for a creature). However, area data is in 5 seperate files, the one of interest for changing stores or placed objects is the .git file, which is going to be way smaller and compressable than the terrain file (for exteriors). Toss your modded one in the campaign folder...I'd give it good odds on working (haven't tried).

Edited August 11, 2007 by Lokey

[Guard Dog]

WOW! How did I miss this? This is EXACTLY what the mod community needed! Hey Schazz, your wall is about to crumble!

 

Link to story: NWN2 3dsMAX Granny plugin released

[Sand]

You can edit the OCs if you want. Nothing is stopping you.

 

You could, but it is hard to share your edited content with others without porting over the whole OC to do it. Especially with the NWN2 module set up.

[Schazzwozzer]

Hey Schazz, your wall is about to crumble!

Walls? Whutchu talkin' bout? I ain't no Soviet Russia all up in here!

[Guard Dog]

Personally, I've had a couple pieces of work that I put a solid amount of time into, a few dozen hours each, perhaps, only to get near implementation and then hit a wall. Not like an obstacle, where you can sort of puzzle out how to proceed, but a flat-out wall, where you have no clue how to get around it.

 

That was what I meant

[Schazzwozzer]

Ohhhh, okay. I've actually had access to the 3dsmax/Granny plugins for a while (was in the beta test), so I didn't make the connection.

 

It's worth saying though that both of those "walls" I mentioned were overcome in the past couple days, when I revisited them after at least a month of putting it off. One was an error on my part and one was solved when I patched NWN2 (I had neglected to for a while). Huzzah huzzah!

[Monte Carlo]

So who's making what mod then? What do I have to look forward to?

 

Personally, I wonder if you could make a Forgotten Realms version of Jagged Alliance with the NWN2 engine. That would be rather cool, I like knocking the 4th wall down.

 

Cheers

MC

[Guard Dog]

Well, I am still working on one but with real world pressures I only put in a few hours a week. And as you know that produces a lot less progress than NWN1. But once it starts to pull together I imagine I'll spend more time on it. But remember, just because it took me a long time to make it does not mean it will be any good.

 

You might want to check this site out Monte Carlo. It is the forum for the Forgotten Realms Weave, a builder group I sort of participate in...sometimes...when I'm not too busy with work, school, or dogs, that is. But it does count the best builders in the community as members

 

The Forgotten Realms Weave

Edited August 12, 2007 by Guard Dog

[Lokey]

You can edit the OCs if you want. Nothing is stopping you.

 

You could, but it is hard to share your edited content with others without porting over the whole OC to do it. Especially with the NWN2 module set up.

Is your reading comprehension poor or do you have a rebuttal for my post (2 above yours)?

 

To write down all the ways to easily make changes would take an unhealthy amount of time, but any given change you would want to make I could reasonably say that after 10 seconds of thought I could come up with an easy way to make it happen and distribute.

[thepixiesrock]

I was going to make a mod once, but then I saw I was in way over my head, and dind't have any idea what I was doing.

[Rhomal]

So why, when NWN2 looks so nice and is all tidied-up, are there so few decent mods? I'm comparing this to NWN, remember. Has the novelty worn off?

 

There are some pretty fun trainers / character editors, The Keep on The Borderlands (huzzah!) and the pretty cool PoR mod (only problem is that it is so dark, I'm having to turn the contrast up and it looks odd).

 

As I said 2 yrs ago its going to be more quality vs. less quantity unlike the opposite in nwn1.

 

If you take away all the made-over-the-weekend mods and custom content (translation: garbage) in nwn1 you really won't have much more then what we have in nwn2 in the same time period.

[taks]

yeah, i've played a dozen of the top-rated NWN1 mods and most are at best, so-so. some of the better ones were really only released in the past couple years, looong after the OC was released.

 

taks

[Guard Dog]

You would think NWN1 modding would be at it's pinnacle right now. With all of the content, tools, and haks available ene a rank amatuer can turn out a nice mod if they can dream up a good story. But it is pretty dead. That is how it goes though. I would imagine there is a hard core fan base of modders and players still around. And there always will be.

[Sand]

Is your reading comprehension poor or do you have a rebuttal for my post (2 above yours)?

 

I am not even paying attention to you, My comment was for Volourn, hence why I quoted him. If I wanted to respond to you I would have.

[Foamhead]

I like NWN2 as much as I disliked NWN.

 

One of the thing that, for me, redeemed NWN a bit was of course the mods. Blessed are the modders as I am too technically inept and busy to make one myself (although I did successfully use the toolset to make a quick-and-dirty version of Monte Cookes famous "The Orc and the Pie").

 

So why, when NWN2 looks so nice and is all tidied-up, are there so few decent mods? I'm comparing this to NWN, remember. Has the novelty worn off?

 

There are some pretty fun trainers / character editors, The Keep on The Borderlands (huzzah!) and the pretty cool PoR mod (only problem is that it is so dark, I'm having to turn the contrast up and it looks odd).

 

I know nothing about D&D online, I'm assuming it's just another MMORPG, has this made an impact on the NWN modding community?

 

Cheers,

MC

 

Because the game itself is "meh". Boring story, boring characters, no freedom, the list is endless. Why no one is capable of making a D&D game with the scope of Baldurs Gate anymore is beyond me. Since roughly seven people on the face of the planet actually use the editor beyond screwing around I don't even understand why Obsidian or Bioware wasted their time splitting resources.

[Dark_Raven]

Why no one is capable of making a D&D game with the scope of Baldurs Gate anymore is beyond me. Since roughly seven people on the face of the planet actually use the editor beyond screwing around I don't even understand why Obsidian or Bioware wasted their time splitting resources.

Seems like companies are more focused on eye candy (Read GRAPHICS!!!) and not good stories and well developed characters.

 

The developers visit their own message boards, I would hope, they would see that a lot of us gamers want a game that is interesting be it in story, characters, joinable npcs, etc. Its not all about the damned graphics. O NOES!! We must make the game so it shines brightly and pretty for that uber Direct 10 video card. Whoppy ****ing dooooo. Graphics wise, I am pleased by simple 2D graphics like the IE games.

[Starwars]

I recently replayed BG2 for the first time in a few years, and I have to say it's not nearly as good as I remembered it. Good, yes, probably my favourite D&D title still, but not as amazing as I remembered it.

Exploring Athkathla is still as great as I remember it, they really had a great atmosphere going on there. You can really feel the 'bustle' of the city (just like in Sigil in PS:T), but really, the areas outside the city aren't exactly all that fun if you ask me.

Dialogue options and overall choices are probably the areas where I found it lacking the most compared to what I remembered. In terms of dialogue, I would say that I prefer NWN2 by far actually.

I still don't like the realtime w pause combat much, but BG is probably the game(s) that does it the best. Combat is challenging, and you have to think about what you do most of the time.

 

But yeah, I still rank it quite highly on my "favourite RPG list", but didn't feel it was nearly as good as I remembered it. It's really quite a solid game though, especially considering its rather large scope. It feels much tighter than NWN2.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Starwars

[Tale]

One of the best things about BGII is that they had David Warner doing Irenicus. That was some of the best voicework I've yet to see.

[Starwars]

Yeah, that's actually a great example of how *good* voiceacting can lend personality to a character. If Irenicus didn't have a voice (or was voiced by an annoying actor) then he would've really forgettable. As it stands now, I don't think he's the "villain of villains", but he seems to work very well.

I like the sort of impatient feel it gives Irenicus, the no nonsense attitude and the disregard of emotions. It could've easily been a rather bland and faceless villain, but it gives him a certain "status".

 

As for overall best voicework, I think Vampire: Bloodlines holds the crown there. Even though there are not as many interactive NPCs in it, if a game wants to voice every character in the game, Vampire is a great place to look for insipration. Fantastic voicework, and I can't remember a single occasion where I thought "man, this actor sucks". That's a very rare thing in games for me, and even rarer in RPGs.