Evolution, creation or something else?

[thepixiesrock]

Also, Hurls' diary ain't lying! I am pretty dreamy.

 

Am I right fellas? I mean, am I right?

[Tale]

God isn't perfect

There is no god.

No, wait, I'm here.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Tale

[theGod]

God isn't perfect

There is no god.

No, wait, I'm here.

 

I'm watching peeps. Step off.

[Tale]

God isn't perfect

There is no god.

No, wait, I'm here.

 

I'm watching peeps. Step off.

Hey look! It's me!

[Sand]

I can understand that. It's just when you read some of the stuff people type in these discussions, it's just easy to become disillusioned, seeing people just being jerks. It's hard to get around, sure there is discussion going on, and all that, but there is just a lot of jerks. Outspoken jerks. Us-verse-them jerks. I grew up on these forums Obsidian. I think sometimes you guys forget. Kids like me and KotorKyle, we grew up here. Obsidian has shaped me as a person. You guys are like my family, sure, sometimes you'll embarass me, and I'll look away and roll my eyes, saying "Oh Obsidian!" But to see you fighting like this again, like you always have been... I guess I'm just trying to say, mom, dad, stop fighting already. It's been like this for a long time, and I've just been too afraid to say anything, but I need to say something, not for my sake, but for your sake. It's not just in this thread, although it's more aparent in religous threads. If you people can't be civil about it, it'll tear us apart. Can't we just get along?

 

[julianw]

Didn't Kafty's sig use to say something like "a good debate should be like masturbation, pointless but fun and educational"?

 

Personally, I would prefer kids be taught creation in school since snake that talk, magic apple, naked lady etc. seem to have more entertainment value comparing to study Darwin and monkeys.

[Cantousent]

Well, this is probably the tequila talking, and I'll regret saying this in the morning, but I wouldn't mind sharing my thoughts on Catholicism with you folks. I'm just not going to share my views when the very question is framed out of animosity. This thread isn't about creationism vs darwinism. It's not even about religion. It's about how people view and interact with the world. Or at least, that what I think it should be.

 

At my former work, folks were fairly hostile to religion, at least as far as I can tell. That's fine. I've been around folks who were hostile to me as a Catholic pretty much all my life. That goes not only for atheists and agnostics, but also for other Christians. Folks assume some of the stupidest things about us, though. I'm not trying to offend anyone, and I shy away from berating them about my beliefs. ...But I'm not going to be ashamed of my Catholicism. I'm not going to let someone frame the debate in such a way that I have to act as a defendant on a trial.

 

...But it doesn't even get that far. When folks ask me questions that amount to, "how can you follow such a religion? How can you believe in this stuff?" I just have to wonder why they'd even put the thought in the form of a question in the first place. They might as well just make the statement as an accusation in the first place.

 

Pixies is right. These aren't open discussions. These aren't reasonable debates. They're not even an exchange of ideas. They're trials.

 

One of these days, I'd like to post my views on my religion, flaws and all, and let folks respond. ...But as long as the question is essentially, "How can you be so stupid as to believe in that religion," I'm afraid I'll just keep approaching these threads, when I approach them at all, as nothing better than petty attacks. You have reason to be embittered by religion. Well. So. Do. I. I have reason to be embittered by all sorts of things. We must live through past slights if we are to go forward. Disagree with religion. Speak out against religion. Just don't crusade against it.

[Sand]

Don't crusade against religion? Sorry but I have to laugh at that, Cant. Crusades is what religion is known for. From the Christian crusades centuries ago to the Islamic Jyhad Muslim extremists is calling for today, from the Morale Majority wanting to discriminate against gays and lesbians as well teach Creationism in public schools, to Hindu extremists rioting in the streets in India. You don't want people to crusade against religion, fine. Just don't have religion crusade against us who don't want anything to do with it.

 

It goes both ways, Cant.

[Hurlshort]

Sand, that's exactly the reason he used the word crusade. It's like you missed the entire post and just read the last line.

[Sand]

I read the whole post and I still have to laugh. It is in the human nature to fight against something, to embrace conflict in one form or another. Some use religion as an excuse, other uses secular reasoning as an excuse, but in the end we just like to fight the righteous fight, to crusade against those who we deem as wrong. Not to teach others the errors of their ways but to feel good about ourselves.

 

We all have our need for windmills.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Sand

[Tale]

We all have our need for windmills.

 

I don't. You certainly seem to, however.

[Sand]

I don't. You certainly seem to, however.

 

Yes we do. You do. I do. We all do. What shape those windmills be varies from person to person but they are there.

 

Is there something you would fight for, Tale, something you would fight for or against regardless of odds or the futility of it? If so, that is your windmill.

[Dark_Raven]

Sand, that's exactly the reason he used the word crusade. It's like you missed the entire post and just read the last line.

Crusade is a bad word to use. It may upset the resident muslims.

[Tale]

Is there something you would fight for, Tale, something you would fight for or against regardless of odds or the futility of it?

*ponders*

 

*draws a blank*

[Sand]

I guess your windmill hasn't shown up yet, Tale. It will. They always do.

 

Damnable windmills. Grrr....

[Tale]

Nah, my windmill will likely never show up. I'm one of those guys who'll fight a revolution because it sounds all neat and romantic. But when they have us all cornered in the barn I'll be the first to stab my fellows in the back hoping the MAN will look favorably upon my newfound devotion to social order.

[Pidesco]

Nah, my windmill will likely never show up. I'm one of those guys who'll fight a revolution because it sounds all neat and romantic. But when they have us all cornered in the barn I'll be the first to stab my fellows in the back hoping the MAN will look favorably upon my newfound devotion to social order.

 

Your avatar seems quite appropriate.

[Gfted1]

We have no heaven to strive for, no hell to fear but our own making. When we die that is the end of ourselves. I can understand why you fear this idealogical truth.

 

 

IMO, I think that is one of the biggest motivators for religous belief. People dont want to believe its over when they die. We are such wonderful creatures that of course some part of us will exist for eternity!

 

Id like to ask of the believers, do all living things on Earth have a soul or just humans?

[Hurlshort]

We have no heaven to strive for, no hell to fear but our own making. When we die that is the end of ourselves. I can understand why you fear this idealogical truth.

 

 

IMO, I think that is one of the biggest motivators for religous belief. People dont want to believe its over when they die. We are such wonderful creatures that of course some part of us will exist for eternity!

 

Id like to ask of the believers, do all living things on Earth have a soul or just humans?

 

Interesting question, and one that will likely get all sorts of different responses, depending on faith and personal beliefs. My shrt answer would be yes. But my hamster doesn't really have a range of emotions, she doesn't seem to feel remorse. She's lacking the complexities of the human spirit. On the other hand, dogs and cats seem to have a bit more complexity in their souls. They can mourn and have ersonal attachments.

 

Emotions are key to what I consider the soul to be. But really, this isn't religion, this is spiritualism. Yeah, you need to be spiritual be religious, but you don't need to be religious to be spiritual. I see each individual spirit as incredibly unique and fascinating. I don't believe it simply disappears when the body dies.

[Tale]

Is this the thread where we're to talk about this kind of thing? I don't want to get into it and it be a tangent or anything. I'm the guy who doesn't even believe in "free will," so it's not uncommon for absolutely nobody to agree with me on philosophy/spirituality/religion.

[Guest The Architect]

Is it also not uncommon for absolutely no one to agree with you on anything?

[Tale]

People agree with me on lots of things. Not necessarilly because I know what I'm talking about, but because I speak with passion. It tricks them into thinking I'm an authority. I'm good at making people think I know what I'm talking about when I really don't. Which is why I was voted most likely to follow in the footsteps of David Koresh by my High School (he's from this area).

[thepixiesrock]

(Stuff that I agree with)

 

There really is a little bit of me inside all of us.

 

Don't crusade against religion? Sorry but I have to laugh at that, Cant. Crusades is what religion is known for. From the Christian crusades centuries ago to the Islamic Jyhad Muslim extremists is calling for today, from the Morale Majority wanting to discriminate against gays and lesbians as well teach Creationism in public schools, to Hindu extremists rioting in the streets in India. You don't want people to crusade against religion, fine. Just don't have religion crusade against us who don't want anything to do with it.

 

It goes both ways, Cant.

 

This is a perfect example of another problem. Not just people being jerks, but the reason behind it. You see Hades, Crusades aren't what religion is known for, crusades are what you know religion for. I think one of the biggest problems with religious debates, is that people have just not come into contact with the right people. If all Hades ever comes in contact with are crusading religious people, then of course that will be his opinion of it. Is it a correct opinion? Absolutely not, but really, can you blame him? I mean, I know it's Hades, and as I type this, I really feel he should have known better, but really, if you're only exposed to a certain kind of person, you begin to assume that that's how the majority of them are. The media will do this too. Show you a worst case example, and people take it as the norm.

 

Let me give you an example from my point of view. I'm an athiest, bordering on agnostic. But right now, I'm just an athiest. I don't tell most people that though. Do you want to know why? Because out of all the athiests I have met or seen, only a handfull of them are people I would want to associate myself with. The rest of them have been jerks. ****. Do I assume all of them are like that? Well, no, but I'll tell you what does happen. I no longer like discussing religion, because I'm afraid if another athiest is present, he will start going off like a jerk athiest will always go off, bringing the discussion inevitably to how much smarter and more logical they are than everyone else, and I just don't want to be associated with that. Even if another athiest isn't present, I'm afraid more people equate athiest with jerk, and I don't want people to think I'm a jerk athiest. Is my view of athiest's tainted? Of course it is. When you are discussing something rooted in logical and rational thought, the last thing you'd want to come off as is an illogical irrational jerkface.

 

Part of the problem is that the jerks on all sides of the religious argument, are usually the most vocal.

[Tale]

Part of the problem is that the jerks on all sides of the religious argument, are usually the most vocal.

Part of the problem is people viewing it as an argument.

[Sand]

Part of the problem is that the jerks on all sides of the religious argument, are usually the most vocal.

 

I most definitely agree with this assessment.

 

The problem with arguments, religious or otherwise, you have to be vocal in order for them to happen otherwise its just a bunch of people staring intently at each other with a sneer of contempt and that is just boring.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Sand