SiCKo by Micheal Moore

[Guard Dog]

Why don't people just watch the film before they come in with all this nonesense. I mean you can say what you want about Moore but I mean when he walks into multiple hospitals in other countries and not one single person is paying a dime, (in England they freakin pay YOU if you don't have transportation) and hospitals where people only wait 10-20 minutes if it's really busy, and also sponsor programs that are just straight ridiculous. House call doctors, unlimited sick time, long maternal leaves, a moving day off, honeymoon vacation, all of this paid for by the gov and employer,

Of course it all free. The doctors work for free, the hospital electricity is free, the medications, supplies, nurses all free free free! Listen Slug, none of it is free. It is all paid for in taxes. To bring that kind of system to the US would mean staggaring new taxes. And Americans will-not-suffer-it. Believe me, the quickest way to end your political career here is to propose and push a massive tax increase. Just ask Jimmy Carter, George H Bush, the congressional democrats of 1994, Florida Lt-Governor Buddy (state income tax) McKay, and others I could name. I agree with Enoch (for a change) the problem is the insurance companies. But the government is NOT the answer I think.

[theslug]

Yep, because Canada, France, and the UK all of which have free health care have such a low standard of living, it's no where near ours, right? I don't think so. Universal health care would work fine.

 

Edit: Like this is what I'm talking about. What are you saying, there is nothing to argue about. There medical systems are better than ours. Tell me I'm wrong, and I'll secretly hope you fall down a well.

Edited June 28, 2007 by theslug

[taks]

There is no spin, no manipulation, no fraud in those, so what are you even talking about? There is no way to refute those facts. The health care system in America is abominable, its rated 37 in the world right above Cuba.

interestingly, cuba is moore's "example."

 

Kind of like our education system, right behind Madagascar. America is just a melting pot of horribly sick jokes.

yeah, both the health care (essentially) and education system are run by the government. HMOs are no different than government agencies, and the government has its hand in anything health related in general, and ultimately, they're one of the biggest reasons the health care system in the US sucks.

 

thanks for proving my point, btw. why anyone would think an even larger bureaucracy will benefit the US health care system is beyond me. that's always the socialist plea, throw more money at it, make it more inefficient, throw even more money at it, ad nauseum.

 

taks

[WITHTEETH]

Government is a necessary evil, its for the peoples protection. With health care HMO's ripping the US off with sky rocketing prescription prices, and services, the bid to buy off politicians, kill people, and make them in a financial debt that is unforgivable... We need protection against them.

 

Everybody agrees health care is important just like our schools. Why can't we give health care to everyone too? Lets not forget that our government ran public schools do better on average then the private ones. Profit shouldn't be everything.

[Volourn]

"There medical systems are better than ours."

 

O RLY? That must explain why many Kanadians head south to Amerika for health care. Not to emntion, the absolute constant whining one ehars about our health care system. It's non stop, and annoying. And, we don't get fully free coverage for every Kanadian. That's baloney, and if Micheal Moore is trying to spread that kind of lie through this new movie; only a fool would believe it.

[theslug]

That proves that the government is inept and in the case of health care among other things is controlled by greed and big business. As Moore points out large drug corporations get a lot of these politicians in their pockets kind of like the oil industry and Haliburton. It was a nice try taks.

[WITHTEETH]

"There medical systems are better than ours."

 

O RLY? That must explain why many Kanadians head south to Amerika for health care. Not to emntion, the absolute constant whining one ehars about our health care system. It's non stop, and annoying. And, we don't get fully free coverage for every Kanadian. That's baloney, and if Micheal Moore is trying to spread that kind of lie through this new movie; only a fool would believe it.

I don't know better, can you share your story? Who doesn't get free coverage?

[taks]

Government is a necessary evil, its for the peoples protection. With health care HMO's ripping the US off with sky rocketing prescription prices, and services, the bid to buy off politicians, kill people, and make them in a financial debt that is unforgivable... We need protection against them.

uh, hate to tell you but these problems were in a large way created by government interference. you do recall that it is not possible to sue HMOs because of government regulations, right? the list of ways the government has screwed up the system is endless, and here you sit advocating more of the "necessary evil."

 

Everybody agrees health care is important just like our schools. Why can't we give health care to everyone too? Lets not forget that our government ran public schools do better on average then the private ones.

because that requires taking money away from people that have earned it in order to pay for those that haven't. rights do not overlap so neatly.

 

Profit shouldn't be everything.

\

no, but competition for profit is what makes for efficiency and quality. simple economics.

 

taks

[taks]

That proves that the government is inept and in the case of health care among other things is controlled by greed and big business. As Moore points out large drug corporations get a lot of these politicians in their pockets kind of like the oil industry and Haliburton. It was a nice try taks.

greed = competition, which improves quality. moore's conjecture is nothing but hogwash. pharmaceuticals are only a very small portion of the overall healthcare system, and newsflash, the US is paying the bill for new drugs due to all the rest of the hand-out states in the world.

 

nice try, but why don't you try to actually post something pertinent next time.

 

it's always about big, greedy corporations to you fools. you just don't get it.

 

taks

[taks]

btw, i should add, the obvious that you pointed out but were too obtuse to understand: take government out of the health care system and exactly what reason would there be for bribing by all those "evil and greedy corporations?"

 

this is such a simple concept. it's not like rocket sciece you know. i also get a kick out of the master of excess, moore, lecturing us on greed.

 

taks

[WITHTEETH]

That proves that the government is inept and in the case of health care among other things is controlled by greed and big business. As Moore points out large drug corporations get a lot of these politicians in their pockets kind of like the oil industry and Haliburton. It was a nice try taks.

greed = competition, which improves quality. moore's conjecture is nothing but hogwash. pharmaceuticals are only a very small portion of the overall healthcare system, and newsflash, the US is paying the bill for new drugs due to all the rest of the hand-out states in the world.

 

nice try, but why don't you try to actually post something pertinent next time.

 

it's always about big, greedy corporations to you fools. you just don't get it.

 

taks

When the competition starts to talk to each other they form a team, and now that team is kicking the US citizens ass. Greed = suffering. They've raised the prices of health care to unpardonable heights.

 

The privatized health care system bought us back in the Nixon era and they've been shoving bills in the politicians pocket since. The problem started with greed and its ended with heartache.

[Volourn]

"I don't know better, can you share your story? Who doesn't get free coverage?"

 

I, for one.

 

The only coverage that Kanadians are guaranteed are life threatening ones, and you would have to show that is.

 

In fact, in some ways, it is better to be on sociala ssitance than have a low end job because you'd get more overall coverage then. I know this by experience. And, I've seen people putting in 40 hour weeks with actual helath insurance and still not be fully covered and have to pay for it out fo tehir own pocket.

 

This myth that Kanada has fully free health coverage insurance is plain old fashion bogus.

 

Is it better or worse than the US'? I duno. Can't compare the two since I've never been the US; but the US isn't the only country with some horrid 'worst case scenarios'. Taks makes a greta point about that thing.

 

Not to mention the wait times can really be horrible in my country.

 

Good health coverage; but FAR, FAR, FAR from perfect.

[taks]

They've raised the prices of health care to unpardonable heights.

if the government got out of the way, and foreign cradle to grave countries paid the market price for US-based services, this wouldn't be a problem. health care costs are driven by bureaucracy as well, which is in place due to government regulation.

 

btw, to all you whining about how much it costs, i have a reasonable plan for both me and my son, for only $130/month. rather high deductible, but it can be reduced pretty easily. only folks like you, those who so desperately want socialization in every aspect of our lives, complain about how "bad" things are.

 

The privatized health care system bought us back in the Nixon era and they've been shoving bills in the politicians pocket since. The problem started with greed and its ended with heartache.

the problem started with government interference. so quickly we forget. the more we regulate, the worse it gets, and those that don't understand simple economics then advocate more regulation. this is an endless cycle.

 

taks

Edited June 28, 2007 by taks

[Guard Dog]

I stated before I know little and less about the health care business. But I do know quite a bit about the veterinary business. That is entirely consumer driven. There is only a little government oversight and then only at a state level. And with no insurance interference to speak of the cost is paid by the consumer. So it is bad for business for a vet to make insane mark ups on their goods and services because customers will simply take their business elsewhere.

 

Case in point. A vet we use in a dog rescue organization I volunteer with charges patients $75 for an x-ray. I happen to know the film costs about $50 per exposure, then add in a reasonable $5-$10 for equipment wear and tear, then a $10-$15 mark up and there is your price. The Vet down the street charges about the same. Why? Because he does not want his patients going down the street for the same services for less. And they would. Basic simple economics and it is thriving, unfettered by insurance, government bureaucracy, etc. The US health care system once operated EXACTLY like this. I had an x-ray done in an emergency room two years ago. It was $450 that my insurance covered. What the hell is wrong here. Same film, practically the same machine (I think my Vets was newer) but the Vet knows they cannot go hog wild and abuse their client the way the hospital did my insurance company.

 

I used this example last time we discussed this but it is true. One of my dogs developed a hernia. I took her to the vet got an x-ray and diagnosis in the first visit. They scheduled surgery two days later. The whole bill was a little more than $800 all told and she came through beautifully. And you can bet if the Vet down the street would have done it it for $600 I would have gone there. If that were me I'd have to see my regular doctor, after a 6 week wait for an appointment. He would take an x-ray and refer me to a specialist. After another six weeks I'd see the specialist and he would take another x-ray. Then they would schedule surgery which would take a few more weeks. By then I would not even need it.

 

If the US health care system were allowed to operate more like veterinary medicine I think 80% of the problems would be solved. I realize than many of you lean towards socialism on this board, and unfettered capitalism is an anathema to most of you. But it really does work well, and the only time it does not is when government gets involved.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

only a fool would believe it.

No want for fools here Volo.

[Tale]

I realize than most of you lean towards socialism on this board, and unfettered capitalism is an anathema to most of you.

I lean more towards fascism.

[Guard Dog]

I realize than most of you lean towards socialism on this board, and unfettered capitalism is an anathema to most of you.

I lean more towards fascism.

 

Yeah but you are crazier than the rest of them.

[Sand]

The problem with unfettered capitalism the only people who will get the medical they need will be the ones with the money. Those who don't are treated like sh*t and left to die.

[Guard Dog]

Wrong. Didn't you read my example? Competition for business keeps prices low.

[Tale]

Unfettered capitalism doesn't always mean competition, though. There are several historical and modern examples of that.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Tale

[taks]

which are?

 

taks

[Meshugger]

Okay, time for a scandinavian chap to throw his opinion about "SiCKo" and the health care system.

 

From the movie, it seems like the citizens in the U.S. is trapped between idiotic bureaucracy of the government and the policies of the insurance companies. Which makes it seem like they get the worst of two worlds instead of getting the best the system has to offer. From what i gather, the US has the best hospitals and best doctors in the world, but they aren't available to everyone, which makes it look like an absurd system indeed.

 

For one thing, i find the whole idea of having a company (or several companies), whose responsibility is to get a higher profit for their shareholders, and dictates the policy on whether which customer gets their health care funded or not, to be very foreign and a severe conflict of interest. Has anyone dealt with car-insurers? To use the same policy on health care seems like a Monty Python episode of "How to irritate people".

 

Second. No system is perfect, that's for sure. But, at least i will never need to worry about getting a huge bill for a visit to the hospital, because of some policymaker didn't find me sick enough. Also, countries like France, Canada and other Europe all complain about their health care system, but one has to remember, we're spoiled with this, of course we will complain about the slightest of error in the system. Point is, everything is relative depending on what one is used to. Of course it seems like an utopia with "free" health care in Canada and Europe for some Americans, but for every extra minute we have to wait for the doctor, we're easily bound to scream "The sky is falling".

 

Third, Moore says in the movie "One has to look at the worst the system has to offer, in order to judge the quality of the country's health care" (or something like that). It is true when one looks at the American system, but not so true when looking at the Cuban, European and Canadian systems. We're having it great, but not THAT great.

 

From my own personal experience, we've had cancer, difficult spine operations and so on, all dealt without costing us DIRECTLY a penny. But the best example has to be my grandmother, who has a rare muscle-condition that only happens to one in 100000, and she has to eat 6-8 different pills 3 times a day and is required to have a monthly tests for the rest of her life. Because she and my grandfather living too far from the hospital (40km), they get a housekeeper that visits them every week and clean the house, even if they can do their own shopping The hospital also supplies them with a a wheelchair and some extra equipment for the shower and sauna, making it look like those handicap showers you see in the gym or at work. All of that + the medicine (which usually costs 300-400

Edited June 28, 2007 by Meshugger

[taks]

contrary to popular belief, stories like rainmaker and that silly lawyer chick (played by julia roberts) are NOT the norm here, either. my father, for example, has probably spent half a million in the last 4 months, beginning with back surgery in february which resulted in the drug resistant staph infection, till now, where he's sitting in some rehab that costs $1500/week and they don't even give you a freaking room phone. this doesn't count the myriad doctors that stop by. his insurance company? united health care, HMO. they're one of the worst in the nation, yet still they pay.

 

people are so willing to believe that things are soooo bad they immediately jump on the first explanation that makes them feel better about themselves for thinking as such. michael moore, a rich, fat, slob worth in excess of $100M, tells them they should be wary of who? corporate fat cats and big capitalist enterprise: in other words, him. yet still the fools believe, as if being led around by a carrot dangling from a stick. too wrapped up in their own ideology to see the sign with big red letters that says "HAHAHA I'm scamming you and you're giving me either free advertising, or you money!!!!"

 

taks

Edited June 28, 2007 by taks

[Meshugger]

contrary to popular belief, stories like rainmaker and that silly lawyer chick (played by julia roberts) are NOT the norm here, either. my father, for example, has probably spent half a million in the last 4 months, beginning with back surgery in february which resulted in the drug resistant staph infection, till now, where he's sitting in some rehab that costs $1500/week and they don't even give you a freaking room phone. this doesn't count the myriad doctors that stop by. his insurance company? united health care, HMO. they're one of the worst in the nation, yet still they pay.

 

people are so willing to believe that things are soooo bad they immediately jump on the first explanation that makes them feel better about themselves for thinking as such. michael moore, a rich, fat, slob worth in excess of $100M, tells them they should be wary of who? corporate fat cats and big capitalist enterprise: in other words, him. yet still the fools believe, as if being led around by a carrot dangling from a stick. too wrapped up in their own ideology to see the sign with big red letters that says "HAHAHA I'm scamming you and you're giving me either free advertising, or you money!!!!"

 

taks

 

Ofcourse stories like those in the SiCKo movie aren't the norm, otherwise there would be a revolution. But lets play with some numbers (for the American system): For every 8 people getting perfect health care, there's 2 getting shafted. Hell, lets make it really sweet: out of 200 million, 10 million are having it bad, while the others are having good health care. Is that a sound policy, let alone a sound foundation of a society? Also, hasn't Colorado Springs been voted as the best place to live in the US, according to the quality of life(no crime, great schools, little social problems such as alcoholism, unemployment), not by the amount of millionares? Are you sure that doesn't cloud your judgement a little by living in place like that?

[theslug]

Go Meshugger. Finally someone reasonable stands against taks and his crazy bleeding heart liberal fascist nonsense.