The Escapist: The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Darque]

But it can get you a job.

 

Which would you hire?

 

A good dev who'll bolt at the first sign of trouble, or a good dev who'll stick till the end?

 

Hmmm. Hmmm. Hmmm.

[Sand]

Either way, Troika died. Isn't that the topic here?

Edited December 29, 2006 by Sand

[Darque]

 

I'm sure all of the developers in troika keeled over when the company tanked, and thus their actions had no bearing after the fact.

[Dark_Raven]

good dev who'll stick till the end

 

A good dev who'll bolt at the first sign of trouble

:givingmiddlefingersmiley:

[Sand]

 

I'm sure all of the developers in troika keeled over when the company tanked, and thus their actions had no bearing after the fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There actions after the fact is irrelevant to the topic because they were no longer Troika. In any case I do agree it was very nice of those who made that final patch for Bloodlines, no doubt about it.

[metadigital]

It makes sense that the publisher would be more concerned over the bottomline than actual quality.  If the game doesn't make money then the quality is irrelevant to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But a quality product sells more.

 

 

I'm sure all of the developers in troika keeled over when the company tanked, and thus their actions had no bearing after the fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There actions after the fact is irrelevant to the topic because they were no longer Troika.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What? Why?

 

As Gromnir has already pointed out, the talent has been seeded around the industry: more experienced and wiser (hopefully).

[Sand]

In theory, but not always the case. PS:T is one of the best games ever made. One of the top five, but even with it solid quality, inventive design, and detailed story it is probably the worse selling product of the Infinity Engine line if not the second worse. Sometimes utter cheap pointless crap sell like there is no tomorrow. For example, Diablo.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Sand

[Dark_Raven]

Diablo is the best thing to hit tha internets.

[Sand]

Popular does not equal good, but it does equal good sales which the publisher's primary concern. Everything else is secondary.

[Dark_Raven]

Diablo is just awesome in quailty.

 

 

Now back to Troika. Too bad they never had Bloodlines released on a fully functional Source engine like HL2, it would have kicked ass been more stable. They could have got more sales. But thanks to Activision and its way of "promoting" Bloodlines, a cool company went in the toilet. But ......... some of the top brass of Troika were arrogant, most likely from their success with Fallout and other games they worked on while employed by BIS/Interplay.

[Darque]

Popular does not equal good, but it does equal good sales which the publisher's primary concern.  Everything else is secondary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm... that's an interesting theory.

 

If something is popular, that means people like it.

 

If people like it, that means it's good.

 

Your theory has been crushed by reality.

 

What you really mean is that you don't like it, so you "feel" it's not good.

[Sand]

Of course. Something that is deemed good or not good it solely based on the opinion of the individual. I never said otherwise.

[metadigital]

Popular does not equal good, but it does equal good sales which the publisher's primary concern.  Everything else is secondary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm... that's an interesting theory.

 

If something is popular, that means people like it.

 

If people like it, that means it's good.

 

Your theory has been crushed by reality.

 

What you really mean is that you don't like it, so you "feel" it's not good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah, he's just paying lip-service to Mr Mortis's "game as art" elitism.

[Sand]

No. It is a business. The point of a business is to make money. You make money buy providing a product that is popular and cheap to make and maintain. The Gaming business is no different than any other business. Those who fail to be profitable die. Troika died. However, popular does not always equal something being good.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Sand

[Gromnir]

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

being a game developer is a tough biz. publishers IS more focused on quarter reports than on game developer reputation, but that is something that even Gromnir, an individula with 0 experience in the industry, is fully aware of...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Diablo is just awesome in quailty.

 

 

Now back to Troika. Too bad they never had Bloodlines released on a fully functional Source engine like HL2, it would have kicked ass been more stable. They could have got more sales. But thanks to Activision and its way of "promoting" Bloodlines, a cool company went in the toilet. But ......... some of the top brass of Troika were arrogant, most likely from their success with Fallout and other games they worked on while employed by BIS/Interplay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think arrogant would be the word... More, inexperienced, that's why obs got it so great Feargus has a hell of alot of experience.

 

Trokia was three guys who worked togeather and had a shot at every devs dream, to make titles they wanted to make, they did it. None of them had the kind of management experience required to a run such a company and thus it failed.

 

Tim Cain is a damn fine coder, I've read some of his papers on pathfinding that were certainly interesting to me atleast, you throw a coder into the role of a PR guy and or management and your screwed. I shall recall a certain conversation I had with a certain producer at a company that everyone should know called Core Design, and to point out bluntly "Coders don't know there head from there ass when it comes to time management", that cracked me up, but it's true... Coders really would rather play CoD all day LOL.

 

I just think Trokia were talented individuals who gave there dream a shot, but they weren't talented in the biz stuff, where the code, art, and design they clearly were.

They over estimated what they could do in the time available to them, simple as that but that is the game biz, it's almost impossible to say how long something is going to take... Heck why do you think NWN2 was held back longer than expected, it all goes of estimates and certain milestones for those estimates need to be made.

[Volourn]

"You make money buy providing a product that is popular and cheap to make and maintain."

 

I doubt NWN was cheap to make.

 

Anyways, all this 'publisher is evilz' talk is silly. Each and every company is solely responsible for their own success.

 

Atari is in financial troubgle currnetly because of THEIR mistakes... or, should they blame Troika for it if they go udner? or should they blame BIo for refusing to make any more D&D games? No, of course not. Atari is in the position theya re in because of decisions THEY made. Period.

 

The same goes for the now non existent Troika.

 

Troika screwed Troika.

 

 

"I just think Trokia were talented individuals who gave there dream a shot, but they weren't talented in the biz stuff, where the code, art, and design they clearly were."

 

That must explain:

 

 

1. Arcanum's bizarre characetr systemn. I like it, overall; buyt tehre's certainly quite a bit of bizarre characetr system decisions at hand there. Heck, Troika fanboys aka Codex blast it. It's graphics were, at best, okay even at release though the style was good.

 

2. TOEE, outside of combat rules, had HORRIBLE deisgn. Ultra poor story, easy/boring combat, completely forgettable characters,e tc., etc.

 

3. BL having one of the worst combat systems I HAVE EVER SEEN.

 

 

As for coding, they're awesomke coding must explain their games ultra bug problems.

 

R00fles!

 

 

 

P.S. It's easy to have 'talent'. It's much harder to use it effectively.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Volourn

[Dark_Raven]

^ R00fles!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

being a game developer is a tough biz. publishers IS more focused on quarter reports than on game developer reputation, but that is something that even Gromnir, an individula with 0 experience in the industry, is fully aware of...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess he wasn't business minded, heck I'm not particularly, you obviously are... *Shruggs*. Business minded people don't make great games, they usually oversee the creative people who make them. That is why I asked, because at the end of the day, it's apples and oranges.

 

I always think of epic as a great example of this, Tim Sweeny knows, because at the end of the day he's given it a shot, that he's not very good at managing his game studio, infact he admits that isn't where his talents lay, but he does know and trust someone with that role, forget the guys name, and Tim applies his talents to what he is best at, coding.

 

The difference here was that Tim and Co, hadn't had the experience before in that area of the industry, but gave it a shot anyway, They're obviously not very good at running a studio, that does not mean that the games they created should be viewed as lesser simply because the company no longer exists.

[Gromnir]

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

being a game developer is a tough biz. publishers IS more focused on quarter reports than on game developer reputation, but that is something that even Gromnir, an individula with 0 experience in the industry, is fully aware of...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

The difference here was that Tim and Co, hadn't had the experience before in that area of the industry, but gave it a shot anyway, They're obviously not very good at running a studio, that does not mean that the games they created should be viewed as lesser simply because the company no longer exists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

troika games is judged solely on their merits.... which is a good thing. as we noted earlier, troika games should not be judged different simply cause some fanbois thought tim were bold nuff to dream big. apologists making excuses for troika failures and finding quality in toika games that they did not have simply cause they like that tim were trying to dream the impossible dream...

 

bah.

 

regardless, your apples and oranges comment is exemplary of tim-level obliviousness. to makes games in the Game Industry you is gonna need business-minded and managment trained folks to complete jobs in a timely and cost-efficient manner. every succesful game developer has such people... like josh. he was the guy that obsidian brought in to fix development organizational problems with nwn2. we spose that means that byNatS reasoning that must means that josh gots the creativity o sea kelp, right?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

1. Arcanum's bizarre characetr systemn. I like it, overall; buyt tehre's certainly quite a bit of bizarre characetr system decisions at hand there. Heck, Troika fanboys aka Codex blast it. It's graphics were, at best, okay even at release though the style was good.

 

Bizzare to you perhaps, and maybe others, but it was indeed a unique idea, and I admit it probably needed a couple of months of fine tuning.

 

The engine was basically a home brew engine that was cooked up, and made to work... That's pretty impressive, because at the end of the day the team that made the game was small.

 

2. TOEE, outside of combat rules, had HORRIBLE deisgn. Ultra poor story, easy/boring combat, completely forgettable characters,e tc., etc.

 

So you don't like the game, because it didn't fulfill the requirements that you placed upon it. What you find easy others find hard, I never found the combat easy nor did I find it to be boring.

 

Most of the game seemed lifted from the module it's based on, it wasn't as well writ as Baldur's gate or Planescape Torment... That wasn't something I personally expected from it.

 

I always saw it as an experiment that prooved D&D 3.5 could work exceptionally well in a computer enviroment. That engine was really lovely, it was executed so well, I'd really like to know what you thought was missing from it.

 

Trokia at this point also split their focus onto too games, for a small business this is very dangerious, so in short a management problem, it was mainly from the article Tims project.

3. BL having one of the worst combat systems I HAVE EVER SEEN.

 

It was a damn simple combat system that was so easy to use, heck I settled into it so quickly that I've never understood why people don't like it, it's just like any third person melee or first person shooter. For me it was easy to grasp and worked so well, but call it bad dude, call it whatever you like, it certainly DID what it set out to do and DID it well.

 

As for coding, they're awesomke coding must explain their games ultra bug problems.

 

Huh, I said time was an excellent coder. Which he is, but being as you know nothing about coding then you clearly don't have a damn clue how hard bug hunting can be, heck what do you know?

R00fles!

Vologic does not compute.

[Gorth]

regardless, your apples and oranges comment is exemplary of tim-level obliviousness.  to makes games in the Game Industry you is gonna need business-minded and managment trained folks to complete jobs in a timely and cost-efficient manner.  every succesful game developer has such people... like josh.  he was the guy that obsidian brought in to fix development organizational problems with nwn2.  we spose that means that byNatS reasoning that must means that josh gots the creativity o sea kelp, right?

I think that goes for more than just games development. There is a reason why good project managers costs you a fortune. And why they are worth the investment

[Volourn]

Of course, bug hunting is hard, and time consuming. That's why you hire QA. Duh. One does not NEED coding experience to realize. I never claimed game devlopment was easy. Of course, it's hard, time consuming, and soemtimes likely not as rewrading as one may have hope.

 

As for your opinions on their games, good for you. They're just opinions. Just like mine. Sadly, for Troika, most people tend to agree with me if not outright hate their games.,

 

btw, As abvove, I actually like 2 out of 3 Troika games. But, you'd have to be absolutely blind to honestly believe that Troika is the top level of game development.

 

This idea that youa re bring forth that it's the publisher's and consukmers who are the stupid ones who 'don't get it' is beyond silly and has no basis in fact. At all. Ever.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Volourn

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

troika games is judged solely on their merits.... which is a good thing.  as we noted earlier,  troika games should not be judged different simply cause some fanbois thought tim were bold nuff to dream big.  apologists making excuses for troika failures and finding quality in toika games that they did not have simply cause they like that tim were trying to dream the impossible dream...

 

That's not the case, I was simply stating that what they did I liked, heck I bought Arcanum on a whim, didn't even know about the connection with Interplay at that point, didn't even know Tim Cain had worked on the damn thing...

 

regardless, your apples and oranges comment is exemplary of tim-level obliviousness. 

 

Don't be a fool, my point is simple, you cannot really say how good you may be at something until you actually give it a shot. My point as simple as I can make it for you Grommy, TIM CAIN != BIZ GENIUS, TIM CAIN == CODER. Now do you reckon those three guys knew they were gunna make huge mistakes on the business side?

 

To makes games in the Game Industry you is gonna need business-minded and managment trained folks to complete jobs in a timely and cost-efficient manner. 

 

Sorry but, no matter how you badger me I still can't tell you how long it's gunna take me to FIND a bug, I can try and estimate how long it will take, this is done by taking the proposed problem, possible cause, and time to fix. That doesn't mean that you'd know straight away, a good coder generally can do this estimation very well.

 

The games industry doesn't work to exacts, why do you think so many companies that can, DO work to a "It'll be done when it's done" policy.

 

every succesful game developer has such people... like josh. 

 

Having not worked with Josh I don't know what his skills are exactly, I can only assume from passing comments that have been had on forums.

 

he was the guy that obsidian brought in to fix development organizational problems with nwn2.  we spose that means that byNatS reasoning that must means that josh gots the creativity o sea kelp, right?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Josh don't draw art too great nor does he write breath taking dialogue, these are by his own admission, from what I can recall from conversations. That doesn't mean that josh doesn't have a talent for game mechanics and organising people around him with those talents he lacks. It's because his skills are stronger in one role over another, such folk are indeed great to have on any project.

 

Designers, Artists, and Coders all speak a different language, creating a harmony can be hard, people like Josh are those great middle men I guess, and perhaps Tim and Co. Could have used someone like that, but ya know not being business minded people... I guess it didn't dawn on them early enough.

[Gromnir]

"btw, As abvove, I actually like 2 out of 3 Troika games. But, you'd have to be absolutely blind to honestly believe that Troika is the top level of game development."

 

tim were a top level jackass. shoulda' been obvious to him after failure #1 that he needed somebody to come in and organize his projects, but he were either too arrogant or too stoopid to realize that he/troika needed help.

 

3 failures? who the hell gets an opportunity to make 3 major failures in a row? how much money and manhours did he pi$$ away 'cause he never figured out that it weren't the evil publishers that were the problem?

 

is not that tim gets less credit than he deserves... truth is that he is treated far too generous by fans and media and industry. stoopidity or arrogance? am not sure which were timmy's problem, but either way he were a top level yutz.

 

 

"Don't be a fool, my point is simple, you cannot really say how good you may be at something until you actually give it a shot. My point as simple as I can make it for you Grommy, TIM CAIN != BIZ GENIUS, TIM CAIN == CODER. Now do you reckon those three guys knew they were gunna make huge mistakes on the business side?"

 

only fool we see is you and timmy. how could tim have known that he might need business help running a business?

 

*chuckle*

 

heck, after the first couple of failures even the most dim bulb woulda' learned from mistakes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 29, 2006 by Gromnir