is there a difference between rpg and fps anymore?

[Morgoth]

You lost me. So you want games to be harder or simpler?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I'm trying to say is that people think RPGs using D&D or any other abstract ruleset are intellectually superior to any other genre. That's just silly. NWN2 doesn't require me to feel, except of the stressful but yet dull combat. That's why I think good Action games or FPS/RPG hybrids involve me more than let's say NWN2.

[Plano Skywalker]

I wouldn't say the "traditional" cRPG is over but it is not mainstream anymore.

you have to look for it: http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/

 

Mainstream games like Mass Effect target the console audience first and foremost and they have to give them what they are looking for (while slipping in some RPG elements like dialogue, stats, etc).

 

Thing is (and I'm sure Mass Effect will have this), since you can't get the isometric camera view on these games (which is good for managing party combat), you need something to compensate. And that something is SQUAD COMMANDS that temporarily override the individual follower's AI script.

[kirottu]

Meh, RPGs are about playing a role, aka making choices that affect the game world and different character can make different choices.

 

Turn based or real time are totally irrelevant as are puzzles.

[Plano Skywalker]

Meh, RPGs are about playing a role, aka making choices that affect the game world and different character can make different choices.

 

Turn based or real time are totally irrelevant as are puzzles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

actually, I agree. KOTOR 2 (despite its rough areas) had an awful lot of dialogue and choices THAT MATTER.... I think that is what made it a good RPG. Real-time combat would not have taken away from the experience, IMO.

 

I can handle real-time combat and not having the isometric view.

[roshan]

NWN2 is the epitome of dumbdownedness. Combat in NWN2

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

RPG's are no longer cult games, there mainstream, just like Gaming in general now.

 

What this means is that the games (Especially RPG's) have to appeal to the lowest common denominator so:

 

Strip out the plot, dialogue and choice and replace it with bad voice acting.

 

Replace Tactics and Strategy with Either Frantic Clicking or Twitch FPS Combat.

 

Wrap it in pretty lighting effects and huge textures..

 

Finally call it "World of Halo" and make a fortune.

 

 

Sad thing is, I am yet again replaying FFVII and even though it is 10 years old it still blows away every other "RPG" without effort or equal.

 

Hell, even the graphics still look good in a very stylistic sort of way, while they don't look awe inspiring anymore they do not look a decade old, especially the seamless no load cut scenes.

 

While it wouldn't quite pass for a 360 or PS3 title in terms of a "Modern Look", it works phenomenally as a PSP Game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

JRPG's are more like interactive books than RPG's.

[Gorgon]

Fallout one was DOS graphics, DOS graphics kills the enjoyment of any game.

Fallout two had some minor improvements that made it agreeable enough on the eyes that you could enjoy it.

 

People constantly bring it up as an example of how awesome things were in the good old forgotten days of yore, IMHO it was ok, certainly enjoyable, but not really deserving of the hero worship of a fiercely defensive and somewhat unstable cult.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

And your point is?

 

I was not saying that the game should play itself, but countering your argument of what constitutes the intellectual challenge in a game. So far, you haven't provided any good examples.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could ask the same, as you made no counter argument, you simply said you didn't agree.

 

And if that counts as a amicable counter point, then I disagree with the point to which you disagree... and so on.

 

Times infinity squared no backsies.

 

<_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? You should re-read my posts then. Don't get me wrong, some of your points are valid ("lack of exploration in games = bad"), but they have nothing to do with mental effort required to play games (which was initial point of this thread that Kalfear raised).

 

The vast majority of old RPG games that I've played require as much grey matter as their newer counterparts (as I outlined in my first post in this thread).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With th exception of the options available to some of the rulesets I am inclined to agree, but then again I was always an Ultima Underworld fan, so I'm happy with the way things are going.

[Plano Skywalker]

JRPG's are more like interactive books than RPG's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

exactly....the JRPG rose when the Occidental Adventure Game started to decline; so, in a sense, the JRPG had no real competition for what it was doing.

 

now it does with games like Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain.

[roshan]

NWN2 is the epitome of dumbdownedness in PC rpgs. Compared to NWN2, Diablo 2 features tactical combat.

 

Not only is combat in NWN2 repetitive, boring and completely unchallenging, but the game is also completely linear. It doesnt leave anything for the player to discover or figure out. Eeverything is mapped out in a straight line. Not only do the areas progress linearly but the area design itself is for the most part also completely linear. No houses to enter, no non essential NPCs that the player can have a chat with. No need to even decide who to take in your party, half of it is decided in advance!

 

I really hope that Ferret doesnt get to design RPGs anymore.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

JRPG's are more like interactive books than RPG's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

exactly....the JRPG rose when the Occidental Adventure Game started to decline; so, in a sense, the JRPG had no real competition for what it was doing.

 

now it does with games like Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahhhh Indigo Prophecy was more akin to an interactive movie come book, I'd like to see more such games in the future.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

NWN2 is the epitome of dumbdownedness in PC rpgs. Compared to NWN2, Diablo 2 features tactical combat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't agree with that... But

 

I really hope that Ferret doesnt get to design RPGs anymore.

 

I can agree with that.

[Plano Skywalker]

Ahhhh Indigo Prophecy was more akin to an interactive movie come book, I'd like to see more such games in the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, yeah, taking the concept to the cutting edge. still, extremely linear.

[Gorgon]

I think that is more the fault of consoles than any wish to make linear games by developers.

 

They are in business to make money, not cater to a small group of demanding fans like the ones who frequent these forums, as much as they might like to.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Gorgon

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Ahhhh Indigo Prophecy was more akin to an interactive movie come book, I'd like to see more such games in the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, yeah, taking the concept to the cutting edge. still, extremely linear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

linear is not bad.

non-linear is not bad.

 

It's linear but with more options and cause an effect than most games I can think of... But i agree it still has elements of linearism in there.

 

But as i said linear isn't bad.

[roshan]

I can't agree with that... But

 

At advanced stages of the game Diablo 2 can be very difficult especially if you play single player only and thus dont have all the powerful unique and set items. And this is if you use character guides and thus know where to invest all your character and skill points.

 

If you mess up your character then you have no chance in the end game in hell difficulty. And when you die you lose XP and most of your money. This is actually a lot more difficult compared to NWN2 where death is actually beneficial since it cures disease and level drain. In Diablo 2 you need to use a potion to heal yourself or go back to town. If your ally dies you need to spend a lot of money resurrecting them, and you need to keep them alive with potions sometimes. In NWN2 you can hit a button and instaheal everyone after combat. You dont even need to keep any potions. If bosses in Diablo 2 randomly have lots of powerful buffs then battles can require a lot of strategy such as for example hit and run tactics, or deciding who to take down first.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I think that is more the fault of consoles than any wish to make linear games by developers.

 

They are in business to make money, not cater to a small group of demanding fans like the ones who frequent these forums, as much as they might like to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:crazy: I wouldn't blame consoles... There's nothing to blame past the simple fact that folks who infact LOVE non-linear games are apparently a minority.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I can't agree with that... But

 

At advanced stages of the game Diablo 2 can be very difficult especially if you play single player only and thus dont have all the powerful unique and set items. And this is if you use character guides and thus know where to invest all your character and skill points.

 

If you mess up your character then you have no chance in the end game in hell difficulty. And when you die you lose XP and most of your money. This is actually a lot more difficult compared to NWN2 where death is actually beneficial since it cures disease and level drain. In Diablo 2 you need to use a potion to heal yourself or go back to town. If your ally dies you need to spend a lot of money resurrecting them, and you need to keep them alive with potions sometimes. In NWN2 you can hit a button and instaheal everyone after combat. You dont even need to keep any potions. If bosses in Diablo 2 randomly have lots of powerful buffs then battles can require a lot of strategy such as for example hit and run tactics, or deciding who to take down first.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldn't say that Diablo 2 contained any tactical combat so much as a harder game in general, when you compare it with NWN2.

 

The developer does seem unwilling to punish the player, I'm all in favour of giving the player a good bitch slapping when they screw up, but most developers are too scared to do this because it may alienate players.

[roshan]

Thats why I say that leftist bastards have hijacked computer gaming.

[Plano Skywalker]

I really think that having a more deconstructable environment helps, even in combat.

 

In the Obi-Wan game, for instance, there was a room where you could slice a water pipe and then the room began to fill with water...you could then use that to your advantage in combat (actually, that might have been the only way to beat that Big Bad)....still, having alternate ways of dealing with foes, other than straight-up combat is a good thing (from an RPGer's perspective) and we could stand to see more of that.

[roshan]

I really think that having a more deconstructable environment helps, even in combat.

 

In the Obi-Wan game, for instance, there was a room where you could slice a water pipe and then the room began to fill with water...you could then use that to your advantage in combat (actually, that might have been the only way to beat that Big Bad)....still, having alternate ways of dealing with foes, other than straight-up combat is a good thing (from an RPGer's perspective) and we could stand to see more of that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I bet if it was NWN2 then there would have been a line of 10 people telling you to break the pipe on the way to the room.

[alanschu]

RPG's are no longer cult games, there mainstream, just like Gaming in general now.

 

What this means is that the games (Especially RPG's) have to appeal to the lowest common denominator so:

 

Strip out the plot, dialogue and choice and replace it with bad voice acting.

 

Replace Tactics and Strategy with Either Frantic Clicking or Twitch FPS Combat.

 

Wrap it in pretty lighting effects and huge textures..

 

Finally call it "World of Halo" and make a fortune.

 

 

Sad thing is, I am yet again replaying FFVII and even though it is 10 years old it still blows away every other "RPG" without effort or equal.

 

Kind of funny how you go on about how games have become more mainstream, appeal to the lowest common denominator, and how things are all different, then talk about how "sad" it is that you have to play arguably the most popular and most well known RPG in gaming. Talk about stripping out things like choice, then talk about how one of the most linear (albeit long) game "blows away" other RPG games. In fact, I tend to think that FF7 is partly to blame for how the RPG genre has progressed.

 

 

I'm a bit surprised about your comments about the graphics as well. If not for the prerendered backgrounds, the only thing redeeming about the games graphics would be found in the FMV sequences. Even compared to other PSP games, I'd rate its graphical quality as subpar. I found it subpar when I first played the game.

 

 

I still remember laughing when I saw the "real" Cloud jump out of the train, especially right after the super cool FMV sequence to start the game off!

 

I enjoyed the game, and even went through all the tediousness of getting the Knights of the Round materia, and defeated both the Ruby and the Emerald Weapons. I really enjoyed the music, especially the Jenova theme. But to complain about the simplicity of current RPGs, and criticize the lack of choice, you could probably do better than Final Fantasy VII as an example. A game that was rarely challenging, certainly didn't require much of the thought that Kalfear was talking about missing, and almost as linear as they come.

[alanschu]

Thats why I say that leftist bastards have hijacked computer gaming.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It's probably more the right-wing captialists that want to market the game to as many people as possible, so as to make as much money as possible, that would be to blame.

[Slowtrain]

Good games can be made in any genre, any style. Doesn't matter to me whether they are crpg or fps or something in between. Oblivion for example is something in between. But being "in between" FPS and CRPG is not what makes Oblivion disappointing in some areas. What makes Oblivion dissapointing in some areas is that those particular areas were not designed very well. Bad design transcends genre or style.

[Jorian Drake]

adventure+RPG genres together are what the 'pnp spirit' is about