is there a difference between rpg and fps anymore?

[Kalfear]

Before anyone flames me, im being serious here.

 

Use to be that a rpg required mental abilities and not just dexterity. But in recent years ive noticed that the mental puzzle solving, tactics driven rpgs are being replaced by twitch mechanics.

 

Now the twitch players, of course, will tell you that this is a improvement but for me, I miss having to think in a game and work out issues.

 

Even KotOR 1,2 and JE fell into this patern (even though I loved all 3 games). The combat could have been so much more interesting but instead of having to think you were forced to try and push a button to activate sheild and other such things. Defensive skills use to matter in games, now its just do you push your sheilds button in time.

 

I gotta say this is the ONE thing about Biowares Mass Effects that has me worried. They have already stated they trying to mix rpg with twitch and I just dont have any interest in playing twitch games. Id rather win or lose on skill and character build then worry if I hit a button fast enough or do a button combo fast enough.

 

Guess I just miss the older games where you were rewarded for useing your mind.

 

Anyone else notice this as well in todays games? I really dont think this movement to twitch gaming is a improvement what so ever.

 

If I wanna play a twitch game Ill go buy a Wii

[Gorgon]

Turn based combat is dead, if follows that the faster the game moves the harder it is to have any great number of tactical elements.

 

Personally I would rather have more arcade to replace it than the button-pushing of the Kotor series. If i'm gonna shoot at something I should be able to aim, if i'm dueling with a lightsaber I want to be able to block.

 

Fortunately Kotor had other charms than the combat to keep it alive.

[Mortis Nai]

RPG's are no longer cult games, there mainstream, just like Gaming in general now.

 

What this means is that the games (Especially RPG's) have to appeal to the lowest common denominator so:

 

Strip out the plot, dialogue and choice and replace it with bad voice acting.

 

Replace Tactics and Strategy with Either Frantic Clicking or Twitch FPS Combat.

 

Wrap it in pretty lighting effects and huge textures..

 

Finally call it "World of Halo" and make a fortune.

 

 

Sad thing is, I am yet again replaying FFVII and even though it is 10 years old it still blows away every other "RPG" without effort or equal.

 

Hell, even the graphics still look good in a very stylistic sort of way, while they don't look awe inspiring anymore they do not look a decade old, especially the seamless no load cut scenes.

 

While it wouldn't quite pass for a 360 or PS3 title in terms of a "Modern Look", it works phenomenally as a PSP Game.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Morgoth]

FPS/RPG hybrid >> old skool RPG.

[Diamond]

Let's clarify what folks mean by "using your mind" in RPG. In my understanding, it can be either solving puzzles or using combat tactics and strategy.

 

Going by this definition, I don't remember much of it in any RPGs I've played. By that I mean Fallout 2 and IE games. Correct me if it is not the case with earlier RPGs.

 

BG2 and PS:T had a few riddles, but that's about it.

RPG combat is generally simplistic and combat planning is not a big part of the game (compared to strategy games). I certainly don't see much difference between, say, Fallout 2 and NWN2 "brain workload".

 

Same with, say, Diablo 2 and IE games. You can think in both, but in Diablo 2 you click much more. More clicking does not automatically imply less thinking.

 

 

PS

I see some bitter people in this thread.

[Morgoth]

PS

I see some bitter people in this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well just wait when Sand visits this thread....

[Mortis Nai]

Well lets see.

 

Exploration has been replaced by Racing Game "Wrong way" type flashing warnings in the form of Maps or Compasses that tell you exactly where to go, or they simply have you going in a straight line from A-B-C.

 

Taking Notes are following your quest objectives, has been replaced with automatic Journals and quest logs that in some cases tell you even more information about where you have to go next and whom you have to speak to than the NPC that gave you the quest to begin with.

 

Some RPG's do not even bother killing the character anymore, and remove any and all consequence for character death so that not even a "Reload previous save game" screen is there to "nag" the player.

 

Those three things alone imply to me that Games have been "Dumbed down" and require less "brain power."

 

Pretty soon players will not even have to have any tiresom involvement with there RPG at all, it will play itself completely in cut scenes except for the rare moment where you pop into First person and have to shoot things just before another 6 hour cut scene involving your character walking, fighting and playing for you all in accordance to the stats you gave them at character creation.

 

I just wish someone would release a RPG that involved me feeling that I was actually playing and interacting with a Game again, rather than being an insignificant spectator in the corner.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Diamond]

Exploration = using your brain? I beg to differ. Yes, modern games are more linear, but how does the possibility of exploration make a game more mentally challenging? All you have to do is to click more (irony) to get to remote locations. Yes, it gives a nice feel, but no, it is not even a marginal load on your brain.

 

 

You enjoy taking notes, I think it is tedious. I do enough typing at work, thank you very much, and my wrists hurt in the end of the day. And again, you imply that such mundane activity as typing makes one more clever?

 

If you are so keen on taking motes, why not using the space some games provide for free notes (NWN/2), or use pen and paper?

[Mortis Nai]

So read a book?

 

Truly, whats the point of a game that may as well play itself?

[Diamond]

And your point is?

 

I was not saying that the game should play itself, but countering your argument of what constitutes the intellectual challenge in a game. So far, you haven't provided any good examples.

[Darque]

FPS/RPG hybrid >> old skool RPG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree with this.

 

But at the same time, I think games are being dumbed down and streamlined. <_<

 

I want to explore.

 

I want areas not connected directly to teh plot or any part of the main story.

 

I want risks and a chance of loss. (though given the whole save game system this isn't going to amount to much)

[Walsingham]

It doesn't bother me that these games exist. Firstly, on general principles they are justified in a market economy. Secondly, they serve as an easy to access game for youngsters to get into this type of game.

 

However, as you pointed out there are two reasons why I would hope they do not exclusively dominate.

 

1) Quite simply not everyone can move quick enough for twitch gaming. They represent a section of the market that unless catered to will spend tehir readies on summat else.

 

2) I think that if you put too much of the button mashing in then you are neglecting the true potential of the genre.

[Morgoth]

I want to explore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I recommend Gothic 3.

With all it's faults, this game encourages exploration in such natural and handsomely crafted beauty you start to loose a sense of time...

[Diamond]

FPS/RPG hybrid >> old skool RPG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree with this.

 

But at the same time, I think games are being dumbed down and streamlined. <_<

 

I want to explore.

 

I want areas not connected directly to teh plot or any part of the main story.

 

I want risks and a chance of loss. (though given the whole save game system this isn't going to amount to much)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So the general consensus is that people want more games like Fallout 2?

[Mortis Nai]

And your point is?

 

I was not saying that the game should play itself, but countering your argument of what constitutes the intellectual challenge in a game. So far, you haven't provided any good examples.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could ask the same, as you made no counter argument, you simply said you didn't agree.

 

And if that counts as a amicable counter point, then I disagree with the point to which you disagree... and so on.

 

Times infinity squared no backsies.

 

<_<

[Darque]

So the general consensus is that people want more games like Fallout 2?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That game was RPG perfection.

 

I'd like a game somewhere between Fallout 2, Deus Ex and Vampire:Bloodlines.

[Darque]

I want to explore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I recommend Gothic 3.

With all it's faults, this game encourages exploration in such natural and handsomely crafted beauty you start to loose a sense of time...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That game is a system hog, isn't it?

[Morgoth]

I want to explore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I recommend Gothic 3.

With all it's faults, this game encourages exploration in such natural and handsomely crafted beauty you start to loose a sense of time...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That game is a system hog, isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but you won't mind the choppiness once you fall in love with the beauty of G3....

[Xard]

This thread is sad

[Morgoth]

YOU are sad.

[Diamond]

And your point is?

 

I was not saying that the game should play itself, but countering your argument of what constitutes the intellectual challenge in a game. So far, you haven't provided any good examples.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could ask the same, as you made no counter argument, you simply said you didn't agree.

 

And if that counts as a amicable counter point, then I disagree with the point to which you disagree... and so on.

 

Times infinity squared no backsies.

 

<_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? You should re-read my posts then. Don't get me wrong, some of your points are valid ("lack of exploration in games = bad"), but they have nothing to do with mental effort required to play games (which was initial point of this thread that Kalfear raised).

 

The vast majority of old RPG games that I've played require as much grey matter as their newer counterparts (as I outlined in my first post in this thread).

[Xard]

YOU are sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's true too

 

Just look where I live

Edited December 26, 2006 by Xard

[Morgoth]

And your point is?

 

I was not saying that the game should play itself, but countering your argument of what constitutes the intellectual challenge in a game. So far, you haven't provided any good examples.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could ask the same, as you made no counter argument, you simply said you didn't agree.

 

And if that counts as a amicable counter point, then I disagree with the point to which you disagree... and so on.

 

Times infinity squared no backsies.

 

<_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? You should re-read my posts then. Don't get me wrong, some of your points are valid ("lack of exploration in games = bad"), but they have nothing to do with mental effort required to play games (which was initial point of this thread that Kalfear raised).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh well I'm already mentally strained with work and studies. Games should be relaxing and emotionally stimulating, not stressful.

Just look at the newest bad example, Neverwinter Nights 2: The gameplay is repetitve, and combat (even with the famous D&D ruleset) just turns out to be a mess. Let the Gizerai chick cast spells automatically, let Quara throw 5 fire-meteors into the combat scene and Kelghar smash with his Axe.... I get the feel I don't need to do anything, except watching and waiting till the foe is dead. Hmmm....That's what I call is not emotiannly stimulationg, but well...

Edited December 26, 2006 by Morgoth

[Diamond]

You lost me. So you want games to be harder or simpler?

[Morgoth]

YOU are sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's true too

 

Just look where I live

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I drink on you! Cheers!