This is why I hate WoW

[Pidesco]

What about MUDs?

[Tale]

Before WoW, every MMO was compared to EQ because that was the most succesful.  It didn't matter that Meridian 59 came first.  That's just the way the industry works.  You can argue quality all day, but the only real indication of success is raw sales figures.  Quality is just your opinion.

 

Actualy, Neverwinter Nights was the First "MMOG."

Neverwinter Nights was the first graphical MMOG

Meridian 59 was the first 3D MMOG

Edited December 27, 2006 by Tale

[Calax]

LOL, MacDonalds would be so proud!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

we would?

Edited December 27, 2006 by Calax

[alanschu]

If you're going to nitpick, you could argue that the phrase "Meridian 59 came first" when used as a comparison to EQ, means little more than Meridian 59 was out before EQ.

 

 

Also, given the exposure the original Neverwinter Nights had, it's hardly a huge gaffe to overlook it.

[Kalfear]

Actually Meridian 59 wasnt 1st, 2nd or 3rd

 

NWN on AOL was first and had a user base of 10,000 (huge in that time era).

Then there was a game on imagination network

Followed by the Realms (first 3d graphical game)

Followed by Dark Sun Online

Followed by Twilite lands

Followed by Meridian 59.

 

Meridian 59 only came out a year before UO did and was widely considered a failure as its graphics and in game mechanics were of less quality then games that came before it. When UO released M59 was really shown for how poorly it was designed.

 

M59 was nothing more then the SSI Ravenloft series (also huge failures) made into a online game.

 

Should note that the 10k NWN had in its high point is equivilant to WoWs 7 million in modern era. NWN was a huge success for AOL and the first MASSIVE hit for MMORPGs. Before that there was muds that had a couple 1000 players at most signed up.

 

Anyways, always laugh at people that talk about MMORPGs with out having any clue what they speaking about. Seriously Alan and others, if your going to make statements about MMORPGs, at least take the time to learn about topic somewhat. Its not very hard.

 

Should also point out EQ2 is not a failure as some claim. EQ2 didnt project 7 million users at their target and the game is VERY healthy with its current sub numbers. So lets stop this sillyness that EQ2 failing, its not. Nor is EQlive, both still maintain very good subscription numbers for the genre and both are considered (for their time) industry leading games that change and evolve the genre. WOW has the greatest amount of sub numbers but you people really need to learn that sub numbers and popularity doesnt always equal quality. Just no other way to put it to make you understand this simple yet truthful statement.

 

So if you wanna play a watered down version of EQ and DAoC, go play WOW, many have. If you wanna however play systems that challenge you and enhance your game play, then you have no other choice but to try the EQs and DAoC (or in near future Vanguard and Warhammer).

 

Give credit where credit is earned. WOW didnt earn any! Simple as that, they simply made someone elses game, attatched the Warcraft and Blizzard name to the box, and sat back while 7 million brainless lemmings bought what they were selling with out a single question.

 

LOL, MacDonalds would be so proud!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

7 million is the key there. That's an insane number. No one comes close to that, so every MMO will now be compared to WoW simply because WoW is on top by an insane amount. No other game comes close to those numbers.

 

Before WoW, every MMO was compared to EQ because that was the most succesful. It didn't matter that Meridian 59 came first. That's just the way the industry works. You can argue quality all day, but the only real indication of success is raw sales figures. Quality is just your opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Mortis Nai]

WoW's 7 million people simply means that what appeals to the lowest common denominator will always sell well to the masses.

 

Britney Spears, The Spice Girls, Take That, The Backstreet Boys have all sold Millions upon Millions of Units... that doesn't mean I would even see fit to wipe my arse with the CD Cover of one of their albums.

[kirottu]

WoW's 7 million people simply means that what appeals to the lowest common denominator will always sell well to the masses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What is the highest common denominator? Hmm, let me guess. It something to you like, right? And your taste of games is better than 7 million other people. LOLs.

Edited December 28, 2006 by kirottu

[Diamond]

I think you were looking for the word "elitism", right?

[kirottu]

I think you were looking for the word "elitism", right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. There is nothing sadder than someone who thinks that his taste of things makes him somehow superior.

[alanschu]

Let's not kid ourselves, Sony would LOVE to have WoW's numbers. Or even Lineage's or Final Fantasy XI's. Considering WOW pretty much was released head-to-head against the company with the reigning MMORPG champion and their EQ2, I don't think it's a stretch to say EQ2 was a failure.

 

Unless Sony was content with EQ2 not having as many players as EQ1. Somehow I doubt that. Guaranteed that WOW's success has other MMO makers green with envy. And when people start tossing out the "Lowest Common Denominator" it (as other people have stated) makes them elitist. It seriously sounds a lot like sour grapes. They're favourite MMORPG isn't the biggest. People that liked the SEGA Genesis used to nitpick small details of how crappy the Super Nintendo was, and vice versa.

 

As for the "challenge," the biggest "challenge" I typically received in EQ was waiting for a mob to spawn and hoping there wasn't a party wipe. Because if we died and someone else got the mob, we're waiting virtually for days. Unfortunately, I was unable (and unwilling) to bring glass jars into the room with me to defacate into so I wouldn't miss the spawn while I was in the bathroom. Besides, it's not like Kel'Thuzad is a slouch. And it should even satisfy the "hardcore" that love the time investment since you need to spend assloads of time finding the consumables in order to stay alive during the raid.

[metadigital]

I was just reading the "master class" in this month's PC Format, which is a detailed explanation of how to complete the Baron 45[/i] quest (to get the phat Tier 0.5 armour).

 

However much others like it, I don't want to have to have thirty-six health potions and magic buffs, etc, all on hotkey.

 

I barely use health potions in RPGs as it is. If it's impossible to beat the game without them, then I'm already reaching for the Deus Ex game disc.

[Mortis Nai]

If Elitism is stating that Beethoven has more to offer Artistically than Britney Spears & American Idol then I'm Elitist and proud of it.

 

Any Corporate Giant or small time development house would love to have 7 million units sold to repeat customers, but that doesn't mean that the product sold has any greater artistic merit.

 

WoW Sells because its a MMOG Format, that appeals to ages 7 to 70, has a learning curve of 10 Mins and follows the same highly addictive format of "Kill stuff, level up, get better stuff" that Blizzard used for Diablo 1 & 2, they did nothing new, they did nothing that deserves wild praise. They took a already proven successful formula, packaged and marketed it will to a broad player base and made a lot of money.

 

WoW is the Boy Band of Video Games..

 

For a Analytical Research Project at the start of this year, I actually went through and played all the MMOG's I could get my hands on, any one that was offering a free trial and pretty much most of the Free MMOG's. I was attempting to dissect the Genera.

 

City of Hero / City of Villains

Lineage 1 & 2

Anarchy Online

Everquest 1 & 2

Ultima Online

Dungeons and Dragons Online

Final fantasy XI

Star Wars Galaxies

Eve Online

Ragnarok Online

Matrix Online

World of Warcraft

 

Runescape

Bloodlust

Hero Online

Silk Road

Knight Online

 

Navyfields

Wurm Online

 

And a Bunch of Korean MMOG's I cant remember the name of.

 

While its not "Every MMOG" it is quite a substantial number so my point of view is not exactly biased to one MMOG over the others.

 

While I could find good points and unique aspects to all of them (With the exception of most of the Generic "Korean" MMOG's that really just blur together) I could find nothing in WoW that was truly unique and original.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Percival]

Any Corporate Giant or small time development house would love to have 7 million units sold to repeat customers, but that doesn't mean that the product sold has any greater artistic merit.

 

WoW Sells because its a MMOG Format, that appeals to ages 7 to 70, has a learning curve of 10 Mins and follows the same highly addictive format of "Kill stuff, level up, get better stuff" that Blizzard used for Diablo 1 & 2, they did nothing new, they did nothing that deserves wild praise. They took a already proven successful formula, packaged and marketed it will to a broad player base and made a lot of money.

 

WoW is the Boy Band of Video Games..

 

While I could find good points and unique aspects to all of them (With the exception of most of the Generic "Korean" MMOG's that really just blur together) I could find nothing in WoW that was truly unique and original.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did one of your favourite MMOs get shafted because of WoW ?

 

WoW is probably the best MMO around. Blizzard may not have done anything new, but they took what they liked from other games and perfected them. Which is more then some companies do.

 

WoW is in my opinion the most user friendly game around. It has the best user interface I've seen. (which is why I was so frustrated with the subpar $#%#% interface NWN2 has).

 

I got to see most of the game, including the high end grind, and although the game has some major flaws (instanced pvp, heavy end game grind, lack of content for end game, heavy gear dependancy, stupid player base etc), it has more potential then any "elite" role playing game you can think of.

 

Games dont need to invent anything new, what they have to be is fun, which WoW certanly is.

[kirottu]

Your opinion isn

[Volourn]

I find it hilarious that people often equate quality to number of copies.

 

People that say soemthing like "your game sucks and only has mass appeal because of the stupidty of people and that's why it sold 2 million copies" is just as dumb as 'my favorite is better than yours cna it sold more".

 

Guess what? The MMORPG I mad ein my basement is the BEST EVAR 'cause only I have played it!' HAHAHAH!

 

Now, that's ELITE!!

[Mortis Nai]

Did one of your favourite MMOs get shafted because of WoW ?

 

Mmm... I don't have a favorite MMOG... the Genera is a little too shallow for my tastes. Fun for a while be gets repetitive very quickly.

 

WoW is probably the best MMO around. Blizzard may not have done anything new, but they took what they liked from other games and perfected them. Which is more then some companies do.

 

You said Blizzard did nothing new, they took what they liked from other games and perfected it, we agree there also.

 

WoW is in my opinion the most user friendly game around. It  has the best user interface I've seen. (which is why I was so frustrated with the subpar $#%#% interface NWN2 has).

 

You point out WoW's easy to use, easy to learn interface... I pointed out that WoW has a learning curve of about 10 mins so we agree there.

 

I got to see most of the game, including the high end grind, and although the game has some major flaws (instanced pvp, heavy end game grind, lack of content for end game, heavy gear dependancy, stupid player base etc), it has more potential then any "elite" role playing game you can think of.

 

You admit the game has some major flaws, we agree there also, but then "High Level Content" and "End Game" is something all MMOG's suffer from.

 

You admit he player Base is stupid, I agree with you.

 

So why all the attitude and aggressiveness?

 

Games dont need to invent anything new, what they have to be is fun, which WoW certanly is.

 

I never said WoW was not fun, quite the opposite, I said it utilised the same formula that Blizzard used for Diablo 1 & 2 which was highly addictive.

 

However, many people seem to think that Blizzard invented the wheel with WoW, when in truth they gave the genera a sugar coating so the pill not only went down easily but had a pleasant after taste.

 

But, if a game brings nothing new to the table, then in my mind it has little in the way of "Artistic Merit" and value. I would rather play a game that is inventive and creative that takes some risks for better or worse than a game that tills old soil.

 

Which is why in my study of MMOG's I found WoW to be unimpressive, it lacked that certain something that set it apart from all the rest. It was like a Time Life "Best of the 90's" CD.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[alanschu]

If Elitism is stating that Beethoven has more to offer Artistically than Britney Spears & American Idol then I'm Elitist and proud of it.

 

Elitism is also saying stuff like "This is why I hate WoW" because of something a WoW player said regarding the alleged death of someone and somehow associating the blame of said event with WoW. You'd have been better off saying "This is why I hate stupid people with bad senses of humour"

 

Any Corporate Giant or small time development house would love to have 7 million units sold to repeat customers, but that doesn't mean that the product sold has any greater artistic merit.

 

Nor does it mean otherwise. Volourn is quite correct with the people saying Game X sucks because it only has mass appeal is just as silly as Game X is good simply because it sold a lot.

 

Driv3r sold a lot, but the consensus is that the game sucked, and cashed in on the franchise. World of Warcraft though, seems to be getting more positive recognition for its quality than negative people. Granted, these same people also awarded a game like Black & White a ton of praise when it was first released, but the "WOW factor" of World of Warcraft has worn off, and the word of mouth and critical success doesn't really seem to be waning. And these same people that have given out these awards are the same people that have given out critical acclaim to games like Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, and Planescape: Torment, all the while bashing the crap out of a game like Driv3r for being the cheesy cash-in that it was.

 

 

 

Since you did research on it, could you give a quick description of the fundamental differences of a game like World of Warcraft and Everquest? Hopefully you still have your research project handy, as you could just copy-paste exceprts from it.

 

 

And I don't know if I'd necessarily consider Navy Field to be an MMO.

[Mortis Nai]

That's why Navyfield was at the bottom along with Wurm, Its kinda sorta an MMOG but not

 

I will admit that "This is why I hate WoW" was perhaps a poor choice of topic title, but at the time it was an emotional response to something that disgusted me.

 

With 7 million people, your going to get some ****, I mean... Chicago has 7 Million people, and you can find a huge variety of different types of people in that large a cross section of populace.

 

But then that really does not stop people overgeneralizing.

 

Its human to make blanket statements "I hate the french" "I hate New York" now this does not necessarily mean that the person literaly dislikes every french person or New Yorker, but rather a stereotype that represents that group.

 

In the case of WoW its the "Blizkid" of which the OP is a perfect example of.

 

I also agree that simply because something sells well does not mean that one should right it off, but one of the most vehement arguments in support of WoW is always "7 Million people cant be wrong" which is absolute nonsense, unless you are talking In terms of raw sales and profit then yes, 7 Million people cant be wrong.

 

7 Million people can be right, they can also be very wrong, number of sales as you said is no marker by which to judge a game and I agree whole heartily.

 

Can you judge a business Model via sales? hell yes, and that is perhaps WoW's greatest accomplishment.

 

Lastly, Everquest 2 built upon the Foundation it had laid with Everquest, While EQ2 was little more than a face lift, the Original Everquest did solidify many of the aspects that we today see as A-Typical features in an MMOG.

 

As for Copy And Pasting my Research directly, that I am afraid is something that requires the exchange of money before we can make that into a possibility.

 

We all have to pay the bills somehow, or did you think I made a study of the MMOG Genera for fun?

Edited December 28, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Percival]

However, many people seem to think that Blizzard invented the wheel with WoW, when in truth they gave the genera a sugar coating so the pill not only went down easily but had a pleasant after taste.

 

But, if a game brings nothing new to the table, then in my mind it has little in the way of "Artistic Merit" and value. I would rather play a game that is inventive and creative that takes some risks for better or worse than a game that tills old soil.

 

Which is why in my study of MMOG's I found WoW to be unimpressive, it lacked that certain something that set it apart from all the rest. It was like a Time Life "Best of the 90's" CD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You could say WoW invented the casual friendly attitude the game is advertising(which is a blatant lie by Blizzard btw).

 

The game is does try some new things, which usually turn out into one big grind/timesink.

 

Quick studies of free triel period MMOs dont really tell much about the game tho, or did you try raiding Naxxramas in WoW, level 60 PvP etc, or whatever place EQ2 has thats supposed to high end.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Percival

[metadigital]

As for Copy And Pasting my Research directly, that I am afraid is something that requires the exchange of money before we can make that into a possibility.

 

We all have to pay the bills somehow, or did you think I made a study of the MMOG Genera for fun?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WTF?

But, if a game brings nothing new to the table, then in my mind it has little in the way of "Artistic Merit" and value. I would rather play a game that is inventive and creative that takes some risks for better or worse than a game that tills old soil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See, that's the problem there, then.

 

Blizzard are renown for perfecting games, not inventing new mechanics. They did it with Warcraft before the MMORPG.

 

That's value-add; it also gets them the cash-register choir singing.

 

Artistic merit? Your sounding a bit like a forlorn "tr00 gamer". What sort of artistic merit can you put into a MMORPG, anyway?

 

PS You forgot Guildwars.

PPS genera: plural form of genus.

[thepixiesrock]

I'd love to give my opinion on the subject, but I'll be needing some money first. What? You don't think I argue on internet message boards for fun, do you? No, no, no, I'll need to see some green before you jerks get the privilege of reading what I've got to say.

Edited December 29, 2006 by thepixiesrock

[metadigital]

That'll cost you

[thepixiesrock]

lol, I don't deal in commie money, only cold hard American cash.

[Darque]

As for Copy And Pasting my Research directly, that I am afraid is something that requires the exchange of money before we can make that into a possibility.

 

We all have to pay the bills somehow, or did you think I made a study of the MMOG Genera for fun?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WTF?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I second that emotion.

[Surreptishus]

lol, I don't deal in commie money, only cold hard American cash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok then, $1.95