If your country drafts you for a war...

[Eddo36]

If your country drafts you for a war that you really don't believe in (as in you don't believe in killing the other people because they did nothing wrong, or if not in a direct combat position, then push the paper work that gets them killed which is just as bad since the blood is still on your hands) and they will imprison with *unpleasant*-hardtime inmates or execute you for refusing the draft, will you still refuse?

 

And in the war we're talking national offense, not national defense.

 

If you choose refusing, you'll be executed and others will look upon you in shame.

 

If you choose not to refuse and go on with it, you're no worse than the Nazi stormtroopers eh?

 

So can you really blame the Nazi storm troopers for being part of Hitler's army?

 

*edited by Walsingham for unpleasant references to Deliverance*

[Weiser_Cain]

I don't believe in the draft

[Mortis Nai]

I don't believe in the draft

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Depends if your country signed the Geneva convention or not.

 

A Soldier is supposed to execute there own moral judgement... If your commanding Officer tells you to set fire to a group of children, your not supposed to actually go ahead because "They told you so."

[Gorgon]

I have no loyalty to my country whatsoever

[Weiser_Cain]

< Chicago Illinois, US of A

Not the point, I'll go to war, I just refuse to be forced to go to war.

 

btw

Yes I can blame every nazi for being a nazi since the question is silly. I'm an american I assume you are too and that's not the way we do things here.

[Mortis Nai]

*Holds up his hand*

 

I live over in Boys Town, or rather Lakeview if you would prefere (Chicago.)

 

It's currently drizzling with freezing rain

 

The Ironic thing is I am an Immigrant to the US, from England and I have more "National" Pride for the US than I do for the UK.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[tarna]

The Ironic thing is I am an Immigrant to the US, from England and I have more "National" Pride for the US than I do for the UK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is that Mortis? ( For once, I'm not being a smartass, just curious what might cause a person to change their allegance. )

[Gorgon]

"So can you really blame the Nazi storm troopers for being part of Hitler's army?"

 

Yes I can, the SS were all volounteers, as was the vermacht officer corps.

 

Low level officers and enlisted men are the only ones who could be considered free from blame for having participated in Nazi expantionism.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Gorgon

[Purgatorio]

If your country drafts you for a war that you really don't believe in (as in you don't believe in killing the other people because they did nothing wrong, or if not in a direct combat position, then push the paper work that gets them killed which is just as bad since the blood is still on your hands) and they will imprison with *unpleasant*-hardtime inmates or execute you for refusing the draft, will you still refuse?

 

And in the war we're talking national offense, not national defense.

 

If you choose refusing, you'll be executed and others will look upon you in shame.

 

If you choose not to refuse and go on with it, you're no worse than the Nazi stormtroopers eh?

 

So can you really blame the Nazi storm troopers for being part of Hitler's army?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it's your country and your fighting for your freedom right? Even if it is a "offence" as offence is better than defence, because if you kill them first, they are all dead end of problem. Besides if you kill them you get Experience Points.

"If you choose refusing, you'll be executed and others will look upon you in shame."

I would be dead so I wouldn't care.

"If you choose not to refuse and go on with it, you're no worse than the Nazi stormtroopers eh?"

I believe you mean "no better" than the Nazi's. Are you a Nationalist?

[Hurlshort]

First off, the US is nowhere near instituting a draft. Vietnam is still too fresh in people's minds, and it would be political suicide at this juncture. Understand that every decision that our government makes is motivated by politics, and you can see very clearly why no draft is around the corner.

 

Secondly, there are quite a few alternatives to being a front line soldier. Being drafted does not mean you are given a rifle and told to shoot people, but being uneducated gives you very few options for duty. If you are concerned about being drafted and being forced to kill, I'd recommend pursuing education. Even if college doesn't keep you out of the military, it gives you choices about where you will serve, and in what capacity.

 

For example, being a medic. Your entire job is to help people. I'm not just talking about wounded soldiers, you are also in a position to help the innocent victims of war.

 

The fact is, even if their is a draft, you have a lot of options besides becoming a marine or a rifleman. Not all servicemen are on the front lines.

 

*edit* I just read the Nazi comment. Uh, the German military (Wermacht?) and Nazi stormtroopers served entirely different functions. You didn't get drafted into the Nazi party. Plenty of Germans fought in WWII with little knowledge of the horrors that Nazi's were conducting. So, basically, if you were drafted into the German military, it wouldn't mean you were suddenly taking part in massacres.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Hurlshot

[Azarkon]

No, but it could be argued that everyone who participates in the war, forced or otherwise, elongates and reinforces it. Even if you're just a medic, your presence allows other soldiers to fight, which means that you're indirectly fighting, even if you don't engage in it.

 

But then, one can also argue that anyone in a country that goes to war is, in part, responsible for its perpetuation as if the people in said country decided to no longer support the war, it'd be - ideally - over. This is what brings about the notion of total war, where in a major war, everyone fights and are, therefore, targets.

 

My advice for a unpopular war is to evade the draft, preferrably without adding to the prison overcrowding problem if you can help it - unless you also want to make a statement, and think that it'll be heard. Fighting for your country without believing in it isn't worth the sacrifice, and if said war does become unpopular afterwards it's likely society won't even remember that you performed a duty. From an individualist's standpoint, duty to a government ends when said government ceases to represent your interest; your own mileage may vary, but there's a line for everyone that, when crossed by a government, should absolve you of duty.

[Mortis Nai]

The Ironic thing is I am an Immigrant to the US, from England and I have more "National" Pride for the US than I do for the UK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is that Mortis? ( For once, I'm not being a smartass, just curious what might cause a person to change their allegance. )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well what patch of soil I was conceived doesn't mean that I automatically hold some philosophical belief that I must defend that patch of land with my life. To quote Bill Hicks "It's a round world the last time I checked."

 

I grew up in England during the Thatcher years, if there is anything that can kill any sense of nationalism it's that mad woman in office.

 

When I was 10 years Old my mother moved us up to Scotland, and when I was 17 I decided to move to America.

 

I have traveled all over this country, I have met a great many different people from Billionaires whom own Newspapers and TV Stations too Homeless runaways without a penny to their name.

 

Since being here I have both suffered and prospered, there have been times where there was no food in the cupboards and I had to live off Ramin, and there were times that I ate out at the finest restaurants the world has to offer.

 

I have seen a great deal of America and this is now my home, this is where my family is (My Wife, My Friends) and this is where my memories and experiences of adulthood are.

 

I do not agree with Americas Political agenda, I do not agree with the war in Iraq, but I love my friends, I love my family and I would fight to protect them, anything worth loving is worth dieing for.

 

My Mother came over to visit a couple of months back, and she was spouting the same crap that people always accuse America of. That the people are fat, ignorant, lazy and stupid, that Americas health care, social system, education system is atrocious. And I found myself actually getting offended.

 

The American people truly get a bum wrap, the "American way of life" gets a bum wrap, and it is the target of a great deal of Anti-US propaganda the world over, every country is quite happy to slate the US as the bad guys, and the unfortunate part in that is that the US Government gives them a great deal to work with.

 

The simple truth is that this is one of the most privileged countries in the world, and the American people are some of the most enlightened, kind spirited and loving people I have known and I would rather live out my days and raise my children here in the mythic land of milk and honey, than I would anywhere else.

 

Sure the US Government is comprised of a few soulless money grubbing mass murdering bastards... but they are not all like that, some of them are actually decent people who do a great of good, and at the end of the day what Government does not have a few bad eggs? It's certainly not Britain's Government that's for sure... The British Empire, The Crusades, The Enslavement of Scotland, Ireland and the working class... Thatcher, The Royals... the only thing that Britain has to be proud of is that it has somehow convinced the rest of the world that it's larger and more powerful than it really is... mainly by killing and enslaving a rather large portion of the world.

 

All in all after having seen so many other countries of the world (I did a great deal of travel as a child, and even got to experience Soviet Russia.) I know just how lucky and fortunate I am to live here in the US.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Oerwinde]

If you choose refusing, you'll be executed and others will look upon you in shame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, so refusing to go off and murder innocent women and children and taking a stand against injustice and dying for your beliefs would cause people to look upon you in shame?

 

 

I'd totally be a draft dodger. If Canada became some sort of crazy imperialistic war machine, I think I'd skip out and go to australia or Ireland or something.

[Calax]

If you choose refusing, you'll be executed and others will look upon you in shame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, so refusing to go off and murder innocent women and children and taking a stand against injustice and dying for your beliefs would cause people to look upon you in shame?

 

 

I'd totally be a draft dodger. If Canada became some sort of crazy imperialistic war machine, I think I'd skip out and go to australia or Ireland or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

when was the last time canada actually GOT INTO a fight with sombody? WWII!?

 

I'd dodge the draft like neo dodges bullets.

[Diamond]

Eddo is a bot!

 

[Surreptishus]

Eddo is a bot!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

A bot with a particular fixation

 

...they will imprison with buttraping-hardtime inmates...

[Lucius]

There are plenty of Wehrmacht officers who were not Nazi, and some were actually the ones who attempted to take out Hitler, particuarly the officers who hailed from Prussian aristocracy (for the anti-royal crowd out there)

 

Rommel is a good example as well.

 

PS. SS Division Wiking just wanted to fight commies in USSR, who can blame em? )

[Gorgon]

Rommel helped the ambitions of a perverse regime, but even his enemies said he fougth honourably, so he gets marks for that.

 

The blue eyed innocence excuse doesen't work for the volounterr SS groups.

You give them too little credit, they knew full well what the Nazi regime was all about.

[Lucius]

Rommel and plenty other higher ranking officers who wasn't involved with the nazi party had been in the military since and during WW1. People don't just quit their lifes work overnight, Germany was their country no matter what, and it had enemies to vanquish (just as Japan, UK, whomever had). But I know it's oh so easy for you to sit there and pass judgement in the bliss of hindsight.

 

Oh and I'm not saying the SS Wikings didn't know what the Nazies did, I'm just saying I can understand why someone would want to blow away commies. ^_^

Edited December 1, 2006 by Lucius

[Weiser_Cain]

If you choose refusing, you'll be executed and others will look upon you in shame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, so refusing to go off and murder innocent women and children and taking a stand against injustice and dying for your beliefs would cause people to look upon you in shame?

 

 

I'd totally be a draft dodger. If Canada became some sort of crazy imperialistic war machine, I think I'd skip out and go to australia or Ireland or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perfectly good country right under your nose and you run off to ireland.

where you'd really be wrong is in not seeing it comming. and that should've been part of my argument.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Weiser_Cain

[LoneWolf16]

Canada? A crazy imperialistic war machine?

 

 

 

 

 

 

On subject....so long as I'm not on the front lines actually killing people (and I can't get out of the country before I'm drafted) I'd do whatever I could do to lessen the death toll on both sides. Like being an officer and conveniently not hearing the command to slaughter our prisoners because of "garbled transmissions". Anything really..

 

There will be death, and lots of it, whether I go or don't, so why not do what you can?

[astr0creep]

when was the last time canada actually GOT INTO a fight with sombody? WWII!?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:angry:

We have hundreds of soldiers fighting in Afghanistan right now. We have bodies coming back every week. I'd call that fighting, and losing, just like Americans in Iraq.

 

We are cleaning up America's mess along with other armies. Well, trying to.

[Gorgon]

"

Rommel and plenty other higher ranking officers who wasn't involved with the nazi party had been in the military since and during WW1. People don't just quit their lifes work overnight, Germany was their country no matter what, and it had enemies to vanquish (just as Japan, UK, whomever had). But I know it's oh so easy for you to sit there and pass judgement in the bliss of hindsight.

 

Oh and I'm not saying the SS Wikings didn't know what the Nazies did, I'm just saying I can understand why someone would want to blow away commies. happy.gif"

 

 

 

It seems to me that if your country's leadership takes a bad turn and you are asked to help make things a whole lot worse, you have a choice to make. All the usual comments about 'benifity of hindsight' aside. There are planty of explanations, but there aren't any excuses for chosing to support mass murder by compliance.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Gorgon

[astr0creep]

There is always desertion.

[Lucius]

"chosing to support" blablabla, if you're gonna see it so bloody black and white then lets just stop communicating right here.