Nihilus survive KOTOR 2?

[Eddo36]

"Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor. How?!"

 

Edited November 17, 2006 by Eddo36

[Wild Storm]

It can be interpreted many ways. Personally, I think it's referring to before Jedi Civil War when Nihilus was "created" in the first place. Theory: He was a Jedi at Malachor V. Exile activates the Mass Shadow Generator. Nihilus escapes by containing his conciousness in his armor but the echo from the Exile affected and thus Nihilus was born.

[Kalfear]

"Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor. How?!"

 

[dewaybe2678]

i think he did i think him and the exile are one in the same. i cann't really explain it. but i believe kreia knew that too.

[DAWUSS]

What's next? A Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine holocron?

[Kalfear]

naaa exile and nihl cant be the same otherwise he exile wouldnt have faced him in kotor2 with vis and mandalore present.

 

Woukd of had to have been a 1 on 1 encounter so could be explained away as a delusion or dream type deal

[Purgatorio]

What's next? A Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine holocron?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably.

[DAWUSS]

naaa exile and nihl cant be the same otherwise he exile wouldnt have faced him in kotor2 with vis and mandalore present.

 

Woukd of had to have been a 1 on 1 encounter so could be explained away as a delusion or dream type deal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

... and let's think of how lame it would have been if it had been done K1 style with your party members all of a sudden being put in a stasis

[Dagon]

I think that the way he dissapeared, after beating him was a good sign that it was probably that battle which he has survived. Also this character has to much potential to remain dead, we know absolutely nothing about him, I think we will have a chance to meet him in Kotor III:)If the mask may be considered as his armor, remember that there is an option for Exile in TSL to take his mask, so maybe in KIII Nihilus will resurect in Exile's body.

[Dark_Raven]

What's next? A Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine holocron?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be so uncool. :crazy:

[Purgatorio]

I think that the way he dissapeared, after beating him was a good sign that it was probably that battle which he has survived. Also this character has to much potential to remain dead, we know absolutely nothing about him, I think we will have a chance to meet him in Kotor III:)If the mask may be considered as his armor, remember that there is an option for Exile in TSL to take his mask, so maybe in KIII Nihilus will resurect in Exile's body.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A resurrecting Sith Lord.... What an original plot twist.

[Guest The Architect]

Ah, most people are so sure that Nihilus and the Exile aren't the same. Well, I my self believe that Malachor V didn't create the wound in the Exile, no, I think the Exile created the wound and shed himself/herself of his/her dark self. Nihilus is the manifestation of that dark self.

 

I mean, consider some of the things said in KotOR II...

 

Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves...it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught...it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

Kreia: "As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

 

Kreia: "He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing."

 

Now, consider this dialogue for the Exile, in his/her case. Isn't it exactly the same as what the Exile does too without knowing it, or at least too uncomfortably similar to be a mere coincidence?

 

If you're not convinced, then consider what the Jedi Masters say, when they pass sentence on the Exile on Dantooine:

 

"When we felt Katarr die, there is something we felt, something we'd felt once before. An echo in the Force. We'd felt it before when you stood before us. Whatever this threat, whatever this hunger is, it is something tied to you, something you have experienced directly."

 

"No, we do not believe so... but it is tied to you somehow."

 

"The Sith are a threat, it is true. But the threat they present... it is tied to you in some way. The echo we have felt on the worlds we have walked - we have encountered it only once before, when you stood before us at your trial. We believe that somehow, you are creating this - or that the Sith have learned this technique from you. No. We will do as we have done - we will wait. There is nothing else we can do."

 

If the Jedi Masters are correct, which I believe them to be, then:

 

1. Nihilus is somehow tied the the Exile. They felt him/her when Katarr was destroyed, and that feeling they had only ever experienced at the Exile's trial before. The masters do not know that it was Nihilus that destroyed Katarr, because he and Sion strike from the shadows, but the connection is still clear.

 

2. Somehow the Exile seems to have taught this skill to Nihilus.

 

How can that be? Well, consider what Kreia said above:

 

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves...it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

The deciding moment here is when the Exile activated the Mass Shadow Generator. That is where the entire wound comes from - where the Exile was cut off from the force by his/her own choice.

 

Why is that significant? Well, let's consider what Kreia says to LS Exile after killing the Jedi Masters...

 

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from...save one. And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force...and still live."

 

The significant event here is that the Exile's fate was unique. All other Jedi either died or fell to the dark side. The Exile was the only exception.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak...or for you. Yet...you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead."

 

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves. Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan. I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

 

This establishes the Exile's unique nature - it happened to the Exile alone, while no other Jedi was able to do the same. All other Jedi either died or fell to the dark side.

 

Since the Exile did not die, he/she too should have fell to the dark side. So why didn't he/she? Or did he/she? If he/she had, it is doubtful he/she would have returned to face the judgment of the Jedi Council.

 

Note what Traya says at the end:

 

"But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force."

 

The Exile escaped the fate of falling to the dark side by cutting himself/herself off from the Force, as he/she would an arm infected by some incurable and fatal ailment or something. However, since that amputation is not physical, the scar is different. Instead of cutting off a limb, it means the Exile is cutting off the part of his/her psyche that is "infected" by the dark side of the Force.

 

Nihilus is that part. That is why he/she is "nihilus" ("nihil" is latin for "nothing"). He/she is the dark side that the Exile cut off from himself/herself at Malachor V, and which has manifested itself in a physical form and survives by absorbing the lifeforce (which is the Force) from others, since he has none himself.

 

The Exile is, of course, completely oblivious to all of this. Note how the Exile isn't even aware that he/she cut himself/herself off from the force. The Exile is in denial about the entire affair throughout the game and generally avoids talking about the past at every time.

 

Bao-Dur is never mentioned until he turns up, and Kreia has to be the one to tell Atton that the Exile knows Dxun quite well and fought there during the Mandalorian Wars, since the Exile won't say it himself/herself.

 

What exactly happens at the end of the game is unclear, though. Note how the story is all about removing the Force bond between Kreia and the Exile, since it is harmful to them both, yet in the end the Exile can kill Kreia without trouble. What has happened between their last meeting and then?

 

The confrontation with Nihilus has. And what happened there? We're not quite sure. Note how the Exile asks Visas about Nihilus and even tells her to get his mask, but never looks at Nihilus' face himself. Why?

 

Clearly Nihilus was someone on Malachor V. What if it was a fallen Jedi? He could well have been someone the Exile knew, but he/she doesn't even bother to look? Very odd... Unless, of course, the Exile is already aware of what he/she will see on a subconscious level and flees from it.

 

Note the description of the Nihilus mask:

 

"You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force."

 

Why would taking the Nihilus mask give the Exile a stronger connection to the force? And why did Nihilus simply vaporize in a red haze instead of just lying there dead?

 

Consider what Visas says, when she takes the Nihilus mask and therefore looks on him, and the Exile then asks her what she saw.

 

Visas: "A man, nothing more. Malachor V. I saw a graveyard world, surrounded by a fleet of dead ships. I felt it through him... as I feel it through you".

 

Maybe the Exile somehow "reconnected" with his/her "lost self" upon defeating Nihilus. We don't know, but it is a possiblility, and note how all talk of the Force wound comes before the confrontation with Nihilus, but is conveniently ignored after, just as the problem of the bond between the Exile and Kreia is never mentioned again.

 

I think this could be a set-up for a plot in KotOR III that was intended all along. At present, it is completely speculative and conjecture, of course, but interesting nonetheless.

 

I know the Exile can be a female (whether as Nihilus is a man) but that still doesn't preclude the idea that the Exile is Nihilus. Because, the 'void' that the Exile would have abandoned couldn't have lived on by itself without manifesting itself in some form and incarnation, so it could have entered and revived the body of whatever near-dying Jedi was around on the field of battle on Malachor V.

 

Problem solved. I suspect it took the dead or dying body of someone close to the Exile - a fellow Jedi or perhaps the Exile's master. Someone who was a male. So, what do you make of this theory? Not so lame after all, is it?

 

By the way, this is Jediphile's theory, which I agree with, not mine. I could never have said something like this...

 

http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2212598&postcount=59

Edited November 21, 2006 by The Architect

[DeathScepter]

Well From what I have heard, That Kotor 2 and Planetscape: Torment parallel each other alot.

 

So it could be true.

 

 

Howbeit, the Canon(Yuck) states that the Exile is a woman. The theory is still legit.

[Kalfear]

Good points Art, hard to argue, you put alot of thought into it.

 

I honestly dont think its the case though but after hearing (its not cannon jusy yet btw) the exile is female I stopped thinking about KotOR series and story line as that ruined it for me to be honest.

 

Ive played the game in every fashion you can think off and the story was obviously meant for exile to be male light side, anything else ruins the game and deletes important characters from it.

 

Handmaiden is to important of a character and basically doesnt exist if you go with exile being female.

 

Where as disiple is a throw away character that exists regardless of exiles gender.

 

As I said, once the push for exile to be female happens I stopped following the story line as its been ruined for me and truely pisses me off.

 

Anyways, excellent post and would be interesting if true.

 

Sadly with exile supposibly being female the chances of it being true are lessened, which is a shame!

[Guest The Architect]

Well From what I have heard, That Kotor 2 and Planetscape: Torment parallel each other alot.

 

So it could be true.

 

 

Howbeit, the Canon(Yuck) states that the Exile is a woman. The theory is still legit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's right. The fact that the Exile can be a female does not bring down the theory.

 

 

Good points Art, hard to argue, you put alot of thought into it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The credit belongs to Jediphile. It's his theory, not mine, as I pointed out in the post.

[JediMasterAltena]

Good points Art, hard to argue, you put alot of thought into it.

 

I honestly dont think its the case though but after hearing (its not cannon jusy yet btw) the exile is female I stopped thinking about KotOR series and story line as that ruined it for me to be honest.

 

Ive played the game in every fashion you can think off and the story was obviously meant for exile to be male light side, anything else ruins the game and deletes important characters from it.

 

Handmaiden is to important of a character and basically doesnt exist if you go with exile being female.

 

Where as disiple is a throw away character that exists regardless of exiles gender.

 

As I said, once the push for exile to be female happens I stopped following the story line as its been ruined for me and truely pisses me off.

 

Anyways, excellent post and would be interesting if true.

 

Sadly with exile supposibly being female the chances of it being true are lessened, which is a shame!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

that sounds rather Sexist to be honest, and the hand maiden is not even that great sure Displin may not have a good a back story. But at least he got hair the short hair cut looks rediclous, and the love stories in kotor is none existent eitire. For me personally I rather belive Female Exile + Atton then Male Exile + Handmaiden.

[Rosbjerg]

Ah, most people are so sure that Nihilus and the Exile aren't the same. Well, I my self believe that Malachor V didn't create the wound in the Exile, no, I think the Exile created the wound and shed himself/herself of his/her dark self. Nihilus is the manifestation of that dark self.

 

- S N I P -

 

Problem solved. I suspect it took the dead or dying body of someone close to the Exile - a fellow Jedi or perhaps the Exile's master. Someone who was a male. So, what do you make of this theory? Not so lame after all, is it?

 

By the way, this is Jediphile's theory, which I agree with, not mine. I could never have said something like this...

 

http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2212598&postcount=59

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is only a perspective that you have proven .. the same arguments could be used to argue that Nihilus is a product of the terrible event The Exile caused at Malachor .. which would explain how TE is linked with the Sith and Nihilus and would explain how s/he and the Sith both share the same characteristics (hole in the force). Since they all experianced it personally.. Nowhere does it say that The Exile and Nihilus are the same, but if you want to find proof for it - of course you are gonna stumble across certain phrases or pieces of dialouge which can somewhat support the claim .. but then again I could "prove" that The Exile and all the Sith Assasins are the same in much the same manner.. since they too share his ability to feed off the force.

[Guest The Architect]

This is only a perspective that you have proven .. the same arguments could be used to argue that Nihilus is a product of the terrible event The Exile caused at Malachor .. which would explain how TE is linked with the Sith and Nihilus and would explain how s/he and the Sith both share the same characteristics (hole in the force). Since they all experianced it personally.. Nowhere does it say that The Exile and Nihilus are the same, but if you want to find proof for it - of course you are gonna stumble across certain phrases or pieces of dialouge which can somewhat support the claim .. but then again I could "prove" that The Exile and all the Sith Assasins are the same in much the same manner.. since they too share his ability to feed off the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While what you say is true, the difference between Darth Nihilus, the Exile and the Sith assassins of KotOR II is that the Sith assassins are not wounds/voids in the Force, whether as Nihilus and the Exile are.

 

I think the theory has a lot going for it (considering what Jediphile has said) and also, just because it isn't established in the game that Nihilus and the Exile are the same, it doesn't mean they aren't the same.

 

There is no specific reason why things like this cannot be put in a plot without necessarily being revealed. Things happening at various levels of the plot without being revealed in the greater plot overall is not so uncommon. It's not as if every secret must be dragged into the light for it to be true.

Edited November 23, 2006 by The Architect

[Purgatorio]

If the assassins can also do Force Slurp as Kriea said in the conversation about Visas's master pertaining to why he must be stopped. Similar to:(1) Given time the assassins that hunt you will be able to do it to the same extent. This special training would suggest that there is an other possibility that is not connected to a splitting of souls. Which could very well be Malachore and the pain of the planet. It is mentioned by Kriea during the first conversation on the Ebon Hawk (2) that the assassins are a result of special training.

Also.

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves...it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

The crushing pain, et cetera.

 

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves. Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan. I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

A conversion tool, which could explain the abilities of the assassins.

 

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from...save one. And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force...and still live."

 

The significant event here is that the Exile's fate was unique. All other Jedi either died or fell to the dark side. The Exile was the only exception.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak...or for you. Yet...you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead."

Nihilus didn't give up the force, and the assassins also fell to the Dark-Side.

 

Visas: "A man, nothing more. Malachor V. I saw a graveyard world, surrounded by a fleet of dead ships. I felt it through him... as I feel it through you".

"A man nothing more" That can be interpreted as Visas overcoming a demon of her past. Also that Nihilus could have been on a ship or on the surface. "I feel it through him... as I feel it through you." .... I may be wrong but I thought it was, (3) "I felt it through him as I feel it through you."

 

I am not as versed in starwars law as many Forumites are. I have read something about Sidious transferring his conscious into another body, and there are force spirits, so it is a possibility.

Note: (1), (2), and (3). I don't have access to quotes, so it's from memory.

Edited November 23, 2006 by Purgatorio

[Kalfear]

that sounds rather Sexist to be honest, and the hand maiden is not even that great sure Displin may not have a good a back story. But at least he got hair the short hair cut looks rediclous, and the love stories in kotor is none existent eitire. For me personally I rather belive Female Exile + Atton then Male Exile + Handmaiden.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL sexist? come on now, thats just silly! Only sexists around here are those that constantly demand a obviously male character go into cannon as a female!

 

But yas know I just reloaded kotor2 and watched the opening movie and in that they refer to the Exile as HE and HIM ONLY.

 

So Obsidians meaning was pretty clear and straight forward!

 

Only reason LA THINKING (its not official in any sort) of making Exile female is not in regards to storyline or anything important, its because some posters whined, complained, and stomped their feet that there was NO female main character (only female supporting characters).

 

And thats a true shame that they ruin a great story to pacify SEXIST complainers. Storyline should be the ONLY thing that matters in this discussion as in the end, with out storyline you have no fans or interest!

 

And again, Handmaiden is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more important and relevant then Disciple is. Its not even a contest! With the Handmaiden the story flows and makes sence, with out her its far to jumbled and pasted togather.

[Plano Skywalker]

Only reason LA THINKING (its not official in any sort) of making Exile female is not in regards to storyline or anything important, its because some posters whined, complained, and stomped their feet that there was NO female main character (only female supporting characters).

 

And thats a true shame that they ruin a great story to pacify SEXIST complainers. Storyline should be the ONLY thing that matters in this discussion as in the end, with out storyline you have no fans or interest!

 

And again, Handmaiden is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more important and relevant then Disciple is. Its not even a contest! With the Handmaiden the story flows and makes sence, with out her its far to jumbled and pasted togather.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, they are going to have this problem until they:

 

1) have a "coprotagonist" that, essentially, takes the credit for what happened in game. this coprotagonist is, of course, a hard-coded character like Bastila and would probably be in the role of a teacher. the "coprotagonist" can be controllable at different stages of the game (especially the endgame). you might even control this character during romantic dialogues, etc.

 

2) give the PC a fixed surname....this will allow full VO remarks about the PC regardless of gender..."Greetings Padawan Stargazer....." etc. it will also allow the game to go into your homeworld, family, etc all while being gender neutral.

[Rosbjerg]

I think the theory has a lot going for it (considering what Jediphile has said) and also, just because it isn't established in the game that Nihilus and the Exile are the same, it doesn't mean they aren't the same.

 

There is no specific reason why things like this cannot be put in a plot without necessarily being revealed. Things happening at various levels of the plot without being revealed in the greater plot overall is not so uncommon. It's not as if every secret must be dragged into the light for it to be true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

true.. but neither is there a reason why things not included (and this poorly supported) are in fact sub-plots .. I would consider it, the fact that Nihilus and The Exile being the "same", a major importance to the overall story .. I mean Visas and Kreia would suddenly be much more interested in The Exile as both are affiliated with Nihlius..

But this theory just screams "The Matrix" in my ears - where Smith and Neo are in fact opposites of an equation - or in Christian terms - The Christ and Anti-Christ ..

I adhear to Ockhams Razor in this instance - the most probable intepretation is imho that they simply share some of the same abilities.

[Guest The Architect]

Purgatorio (awesome user name by the way) while Kreia infers that it

Edited November 24, 2006 by The Architect

[Kalfear]

Thats true, the assassins dont drain life as Nih or Exile do, but Kreia does say they become more powerful the stronger you are with the force.

 

So they are truely the underlings of Exile or Nih in that they share a similar trait but with limitations unlike Nih and Exile!

 

If you remember at the start of game Kreia explains you are able to beat the assassins so easily because you are just rediscovering your connection to the force and thus the assassins cant feed off the power making them less then normal fighters.

[Purgatorio]

that sounds rather Sexist to be honest, and the hand maiden is not even that great sure Displin may not have a good a back story. But at least he got hair the short hair cut looks rediclous, and the love stories in kotor is none existent eitire. For me personally I rather belive Female Exile + Atton then Male Exile + Handmaiden.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL sexist? come on now, thats just silly! Only sexists around here are those that constantly demand a obviously male character go into cannon as a female!

 

But yas know I just reloaded kotor2 and watched the opening movie and in that they refer to the Exile as HE and HIM ONLY.

 

So Obsidians meaning was pretty clear and straight forward!

 

Only reason LA THINKING (its not official in any sort) of making Exile female is not in regards to storyline or anything important, its because some posters whined, complained, and stomped their feet that there was NO female main character (only female supporting characters).

 

And thats a true shame that they ruin a great story to pacify SEXIST complainers. Storyline should be the ONLY thing that matters in this discussion as in the end, with out storyline you have no fans or interest!

 

And again, Handmaiden is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more important and relevant then Disciple is. Its not even a contest! With the Handmaiden the story flows and makes sence, with out her its far to jumbled and pasted togather.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can only assume you weren't serious, because such an illogical rant like the last paragraph can only be a joke. Not a particular funny one, but that like most things regarding art is open to the interpretation of the viewer.

 

Whether a male, or female canon exile is better was debated at length by Jediphile and another member. The result in my opinion was that both male and female Exiles are equal.

 

Purgatorio (awesome user name by the way)  while Kreia infers that it