Just got Gothic 3...

[Morgoth]

Aye, no doubt Gothic 3 has it's qualities, but with a 1-2 sec loading lag it just doesn't make fun.

Piranha is a small and very ambitious team, but they seriously overstepped their resources and skills. Kinda like Troika, much talent, but not properly used.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Morgoth

[jaguars4ever]

So, are there like party members in this game, or is it lacking in that department as well?

[Volourn]

There are but NWN2 (not to mention any BIO/OBS/BIS/SS npcs) absolutely CRUSHES them....

[Cyric]

Crushes them? I suppose you would be right if Gothic 3 and indeed the entire Gothic series was centered around parties the way DnD is.

 

Gothic has always been based on a single player character, it's not DnD. So expectations for parties DnD style are vain.

[Volourn]

Nope. If a game has soemthing; they should do it right. Try to do it right ot don't do it at all.

 

Gothic 3 has joinable and therefore it counts.

 

Period.

[Morgoth]

They're only henchman..heck, not even that. More like the Diablo2 lackeys. The joinale NPCs in NWN2 are critical, in case of Shandra even critical to the plot, but Gothic was always designed as the "Loner in the Woods" fashion.

[Volourn]

99.9% of NWN2's joinables are not critical.

 

And, btw, NWN2 npcs ar ehenchmen too. So is G3's. NWN1 OC npcs were Expert Hirelings. That is if we are actually gonna use REAL D&D terminology not to mention the actual definition.

 

If G3 was really 'loneer in the woods' it wouldn't have henchmen/joinables; but it does so I will judge it for what it has not for 'what people want to make believe'.

 

So, in essence, there ya go. G3 has joinables and it should have been done rather poorly so it loses marks there.

 

Period.

[Morgoth]

Admit it or not, but NWN2 wouldn't be so enjoyable without the NPCs, not to mention the loss of many quests.

Gothic3 is a "Loner in the Woods" game, even with dogs running behind you. They're not important as henchman, more like an additional tool to help you to purge the woods from enemies.

[Volourn]

"Admit it or not, but NWN2 wouldn't be so enjoyable without the NPCs, not to mention the loss of many quests."

 

Still doens't change the fact that mosta ren't critical. And, the couple thata re didn't have to be. And, sure they add a lot to the game. It along with the fun (albeit rtaher easy) combat are the things I enjoyed most about the OC along with the keep.

 

"

Gothic3 is a "Loner in the Woods" game, even with dogs running behind you. They're not important as henchman, more like an additional tool to help you to purge the woods from enemies."

 

Not as important as henchmen? Your illogicalness is illogical. The G3 joinables ARE henchemn so they have to be, by defintion, as importnat as henchmen. I don't think you (or BIO, or Obsidian) even know what a henchan or an Expert Hireling really is. You shouldn't use descriptors that you are confused about.

 

P.S. I'm not saying that G3 henchmen are as well done as NWN2 henchmen. They arne't. And, to me, that hurts the game.

 

Period.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Volourn

[Morgoth]

Henchman, lackeys, dogs, party members.... all semantics.

They're as important as the designers want them to be. It's all about focus. G3 henchman aren't critical, but they're helpful as allies to purge the woods. Bread baking in the Ultima games isn't critical either, but it's in and adds to the atmosphere. But it's still not the focus of the game.

NWN2's henchman however are important to the design, therefor they're critical. Maybe not to the game mechanics, but to the atmosphere and for the quests sake.

[Hell Kitty]

The henchmen in G3 are not comparable to those NWN2. At all.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Hell Kitty

[Volourn]

No one said they were. Doofus. But, both games have henchmen. Doofus. NWN2's henchmen are obviously superior to G3's henchmen. Doofus. But, they are both henchmen. Doofus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. For those who can't tell, the doofus part is a joke. :crazy:

[Tigranes]

NWN2 has better companions than Gothic 3.

 

Gothic 3 is designed as a solo game and places small emphasis on companions.

 

The two statements are not contradictory and they do not imply anything more than what they say, like 'so nwn2 is better'. Arguing that NWN2 sucks without henchmen is stupid too, because that's like saying Gothic3 would suck without quests.

[Hell Kitty]

No one said they were.

 

Actually, you did compare them, doofus. By saying NWN2 henchmen were better than G3 henchmen. My point is that they are handled so completely differently in these two games that they "are not comparable". Saying they both have henchmen is as worthless as saying both HL2 and GT feature vehicles.

 

If the poster asking about party members was referring to something along the lines of NWN2/BG/IWD, then no, it doesn't have that.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Hell Kitty

[Volourn]

But, he didn't. He asked if there were party members. I answered yes. I told the truth, and certain people whined about the truth. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

 

'Comparable' in this case was menat to mean about the same quality; not the same. They both having henchmen was a whole side discussion. Thanks for NOT reading the thread.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Volourn

[Hell Kitty]

The quality is not comparable, because they are two completely different things. It's like saying a modern PC is higher quality than a calculator.

 

The henchmen in NWN2 are far more interesting and play a largere role than those of Gothic 3 but that isn't about quality.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Hell Kitty

[Morgoth]

Hell Kitty wins!

 

Volo loses! (again)

[Volourn]

Wrong. They both have henchmen. Period.

[jaguars4ever]

Nope. If a game has soemthing; they should do it right. Try to do it right ot don't do it at all.

 

Gothic 3 has joinable and therefore it counts.

 

Period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with this. If a cRPG has joinable NPCs then a universal standard should be applied to ascertain their general quality. The argument against it is like squirming out of rating a game's graphics just because it uses 3D polygons instead of 2D sprites. The graphics either is awesome, sucks or is somewhere in between. But ultimately, a scale does apply.

 

In terms of preference I do have a heavy bias towards party based cRPGs, so if the joinable NPCs totally suck then I might give this one a miss.

 

And Volo, you mentioned something about formal D&D classifications. What exactly is the difference between expert hirelings, henchmen and party members?

[Hell Kitty]

I agree with this.  If a cRPG has joinable SNPCs then a universal standard should be applied to ascertain their general quality.  The argument against it is like squirming out of rating a game's graphics just because it uses 3D polygons instead of 2D sprites.  The graphics either is awesome, sucks or is somewhere in between.  But ultimately, a scale does apply.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The henchmen in G3 have more in common with FPS NPC allies, such as when you have companions in Half-Life 2. They follow you around and help in combat but that's about it.

 

In NWN2 for the most part we have the same control of henchmen as we do our PC. we decide how they level up (though unable to choose class) what weapons, armour and items they use, and can have full control over them in battle. Some have their own quests and there is lots of dialogue with them and between them.

 

For the G3 henchmen to be of a lesser quality than those in NWN2, they would have to feature these same things, instead they don't feature them at all. Is a 2D painting of a man a lesser quality artwork than a 3D sculpture of the same man?

Edited December 22, 2006 by Hell Kitty

[Volourn]

"What exactly is the difference between expert hirelings, henchmen and party members?"

 

Party members - Can be anything from fellow PCs, henchmen, expert hirelings, followers, summons (not usually though), charmed creatures (not usually), etc. Basiclaly, anyone that is deemed to be part of the party.

 

Expert Hirelings - Skilled people that the PC hires. Thgis cna be anything from a hired assassin to a mason to hired goons to paid guards. This is where the NWN OC npcs come from since they join you specifically because you pay them to. Think of Expert Hirelings as employees with usually highly specialzied skills which is why some might not even count a 'good' or 'guard' as one.

 

Henchmen - NPC Friends, allies, etc. of the PC who choose for their own personal reasons to join the PC(s) on their journey. This is where the typical CRPG npc party member comes from, and many games like BG1&2, PST, FOs, NWN2, the two NWN expansions, G3, and so on use. Usually, this group is controlled role-playing wise by the Dm with the player controlling the rolling and stats for it; but it cna be a mix of the two depending on what the DM and/or player agree on.

 

 

P.S. Hell Kitty doesn't know what a henchman is. Sad, really.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Volourn

[Morgoth]

You're clearly missing the point Volo. It's not how you call them, but the importance, and what the designers intend to do with them. Comparing G3's followers with those of a party-based game (that was designed that way) just leads to more misunderstandings and dig in qualities of CRPGs that don't want to be compared with those which are popular (i.e. D&D). Unfortunately, people tend to compare every single feature on a checklist (see reviewer sites and the inevitable comparisons with Oblivion) and then decide whether the game sucks or not. But Gothic 3 doesn't want to be NWN2, and vice versa. I don't miss NPC interaction in G3 the way it is handled like in NWN2, thus they're not critical.

[jaguars4ever]

Thanks Volo.

 

I guess the "followers" in JE would then be categorized as henchmen too.

[Volourn]

"You're clearly missing the point Volo."

 

Nope. You are. I said one thing and you (and others) went into whiney 'but G3 doesn't want to be NWN2' mode. I say tough crap nor did my initial repsonse that started this whole mess. I answered one guy's question - that if G3 had joinable npcs/henchmen. That answer is yes. Period. It should have been a dead issue then and there; but nooooooooooooo...... People have to 'FIGHT THE POWWA OF VOLO' to make themselves feel 'cool' on a message baord. R00fles!

 

"But Gothic 3 doesn't want to be NWN2, and vice versa."

 

Irrevelant. G3 has henchmen/joinable npcs. Therefore, I will judge it. Just like every other aspect of the game. Period.

 

 

"I guess the "followers" in JE would then be categorized as henchmen too."

 

Yup. Just, in thatc ase like in FO and NWN1 OC, the DM (bio) limited player conhtrol on it. ie Very littel other than choice of aggressive or passive.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Volourn

[Morgoth]

Oh come on Volo, why do you whine so much about it? I mean we all know G3 and NWN2 have followers, they're just different, so don't fight it.