Most powerful Sith in KOTOR series (spoilers???)

[DeathScepter]

To me, Nihilus is not even a "servant" of the Force; For he is a force addict.

 

 

In all addiction, there is no strength in that. For the Sith is about power and strength.

 

Much of the Sith philosophy is similar to the Closed Fist philosophy of Jade Empire.

[Guest The Architect]

Well, Nihilus doesn't serve Force but in other ways Architecht is right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, 'from a certain point of view' he does, because technically that power that he's a slave to, that rules him, is a Force technique. If he's a slave to a Force power, then in one way, he does serves the Force (well not the Force entirely, but at least that weird life-draining technique). Bah, I'm confusing my-self, but that's the way I see it anyway.

 

I think it would have been better for me just to say that he's a slave to that weird technique, that power, not the Force entirely. Oh well, **** happens.

 

Darth Bane leaves them all behind, especially after reading that new book! (BTW that book is truly awesome!) (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, Drew Karpyshyn)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So? You don't have to care about the people in the Sith Order to be a Sith Lord (it is in their teachings to destroy each other). But once you stop caring about and stop following the Sith teachings themselves then you're not a Sith Lord. Did Bane ever stop caring about the Sith teachings? No. Did he still follow the Sith teachings? Yes, he did, according to what I've heard anyway...

[Darth Blivion]

You know you are arguing around in circles? And you haven't made a single point that counters my argument? First you agreed that "Sith Lord" is only a title, but if you understood what that meant, you didn't show it in your arguments. First, you don't acquire the title on a whim; you have to train; you have to be tested and finally you have to survive all that the Sith throw at you, to acquire the title of 'Sith Lord'.

 

In other words sacrifices need to made before you acquire the title. But once Nihilus attained his title only he could discard it or disown it. Either by denouncing his Sith title or by turning from the dark side. Read this carefully, it was not merely the force that led Nihilus to his 'hunger', but Sith teachings, so he is effectively not merely a dark jedi (which is a general term for all dark siders).

 

Lastly, Nihilus no longer had a need for the Sith teachings, and unlike most other Sith Lords he perceived the galaxy beyond a human vantage, because of the nature of his power. I also remember stating that though Nihilus became freed from Sith ideals, as he had no need of them (note: we are not discussing other Sith), like all Sith he was still subject to the will of the force.

 

All Sith are subject to the force, why do you think Palpatine relied so heavily on his prescience (his power to tell the future)? Because he wanted to escape the traps the dark side had set for him. Note also what the Jedi say of the dark side, "it leads only to suffering and ultimately destruction". Nihilus continually 'fed' on the life force of force sensitives to avoid his own destruction, much like Palpatine relied heavily on his prescience to try and avoid his own demise.

 

In both cases, the dark side was slowly destroying these Sith, the difference is that Palpatine's weakness didn't involve the consumption of lives. Another thing you seem to ignore is that, though the Sith code stresses freedom from all things, all great Sith are slaves to their power and ambition. Kreia even begrundgingly admits that she still leans heavily on the power of the force.

 

This isn't restricted to Nihilus, it's only that Nihilus has become almost completely inhuman. Palpatine and most other Sith Lords still maintained some of their humanity.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Darth Blivion

[vaxen83]

In both cases, the dark side was slowly destroying these Sith, the difference is that Palpatine's weakness didn't involve the consumption of lives. Another thing you seem to ignore is that, though the Sith code stresses freedom from all things, all great Sith are slaves to their power and ambition. Kreia even begrundgingly admits that she still leans heavily on the power of the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This part seems to make sense, since idea is explained from more general DS view. If you hadn't said it, would not have thought of it at all. Might be what it means to falling to darkness or darkside.

[DeathScepter]

Sith Lord strive to be slaves to NO_ONE, not to themselves, force or other.

 

 

That is in their core doctrine.

[Guest The Architect]

You know you are arguing around in circles? And you haven't made a single point that counters my argument? First you agreed that "Sith Lord" is only a title, but if you understood what that meant, you didn't show it in your arguments. First, you don't acquire the title on a whim; you have to train; you have to be tested and finally you have to survive all that the Sith throw at you, to acquire the title of 'Sith Lord'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

O RLY fool? :D Nah, sorry Blivion, but I think I did counter your arguments. If anything, you haven't challenged my argument, because you said that "Though he didn't care for the Sith teachings (this is not a requirement to be a Sith Lord)". Have you actually proven that a Sith Lord does not have to care about (remember, that also infers does not follow) the teachings of the Sith to be a Sith Lord?

 

No, you haven't. Prove that a Sith Lord doesn't have to care about and doesn't have to follow the teachings of the Sith to be a Sith Lord. Name one Sith Lord apart from Nihilus who did not care about and did not follow the teachings of the Sith, but was still a Sith Lord. Can you? Good luck with that.

 

Also, I did challenge your 'did not discard title argument' and I know that Nihilus did acquire the title of Sith Lord and was a Sith Lord. My argument isn't that Nihilus was never a Sith Lord, my argument is: is Nihilus still a Sith Lord during KotOR II?

 

In other words sacrifices need to made before you acquire the title. But once Nihilus attained his title only he could discard it or disown it. Either by denouncing his Sith title or by turning from the dark side. Read this carefully, it was not merely the force that led Nihilus to his 'hunger', but Sith teachings, so he is effectively not merely a dark jedi (which is a general term for all dark siders).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said that Nihilus was never a Sith, because he was, but was he still a Sith Lord in KotOR II? That is the question I'm asking. I still think in Nihilus case, it's not fair to use the fact that he did not discard his title as an argument, considering the fact that Nihilus doesn't think and perceive the galaxy and life normally in KotOR II.

 

And like I've said, a Sith could still keep their title and not discard it, but does that mean that they're still a Sith? No, not necessarily, because if you no longer care and follow about the teachings of the Sith, and you're ruled by power (you don't control it) then you're not really a Sith. It's not the title that isimportant. Actions speaks louder than words.

 

Lastly, Nihilus no longer had a need for the Sith teachings, and unlike most other Sith Lords he perceived the galaxy beyond a human vantage, because of the nature of his power. I also remember stating that though Nihilus became freed from Sith ideals, as he had no need of them (note: we are not discussing other Sith), like all Sith he was still subject to the will of the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, there you go. You said it yourself. Lastly, Nihilus no longer had a need for the Sith teachings. That means from that point where he no longer needed the teachings of the Sith (and no longer cared or followed them) then he was no longer a Sith Lord.

 

All Sith are subject to the force, why do you think Palpatine relied so heavily on his prescience (his power to tell the future)? Because he wanted to escape the traps the dark side had set for him. Note also what the Jedi say of the dark side, "it leads only to suffering and ultimately destruction". Nihilus continually 'fed' on the life force of force sensitives to avoid his own destruction, much like Palpatine relied heavily on his prescience to try and avoid his own demise.

 

In both cases, the dark side was slowly destroying these Sith, the difference is that Palpatine's weakness didn't involve the consumption of lives. Another thing you seem to ignore is that, though the Sith code stresses freedom from all things, all great Sith are slaves to their power and ambition. Kreia even begrundgingly admits that she still leans heavily on the power of the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, the dark-side leads to death and destruction and all that yada yada, but a true Sith is not a slave to their power. You see, the difference between Palpatine and Nihilus is that Nihilus can't control his power (because the power rules him) but Palpatine can control his power. That's what makes Palpatine a Sith Lord, but not Nihilus.

 

If the Sith were slaves to their power (and you know that means that power rules them right)? Then why do the Sith say "May the Force serve you well"? Because power serves them, they make the Force their slave, not like in Nihilus case, where power rules him.

 

Sorry, but if someone walked up to you and said "Look, I don't care about the teachings of the Sith and I don't follow the teachings of the Sith, but I am a Sith." Then wouldn't you be like "WTF? That doesn't make any sense."

 

I've already countered the title discard argument, because as you've said, Nihilus became almost completely inhuman (in fact, he did become inhuman) so titles mean nothing to him. Nothing means anything to him (Sith teachings, Jedi teachings) they all mean the same to him, nothing.

 

That's why he's called Darth Nihilus (nothing). The fact that he doesn't discard the title of Darth is not a good argument for two reasons:

 

a) Titles, teachings etc all mean nothing to him. Feeding his hunger is all that matters to him. Everything is just food in his eyes.

b) Whether he is even mentally capable of discarding a title is completely debatable, given his zombie, inhuman, dead spot status.

 

By the way, what is your definition of a Dark Jedi?

Edited November 9, 2006 by The Architect

[DeathScepter]

Well I do think Architect's arguement makes more sense than my insane rabblings.

[Xard]

Back to geek arguments! (w00t)

 

In other words sacrifices need to made before you acquire the title. But once Nihilus attained his title only he could discard it or disown it. Either by denouncing his Sith title or by turning from the dark side. Read this carefully, it was not merely the force that led Nihilus to his 'hunger', but Sith teachings, so he is effectively not merely a dark jedi (which is a general term for all dark siders).

 

Lastly, Nihilus no longer had a need for the Sith teachings, and unlike most other Sith Lords he perceived the galaxy beyond a human vantage, because of the nature of his power. I also remember stating that though Nihilus became freed from Sith ideals, as he had no need of them (note: we are not discussing other Sith), like all Sith he was still subject to the will of the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are making assumptions. Besides, one of the main points (and rather moronic one) in K2 is that Nihilus and Exile are holes in the force. Dead spots. Dead Zone. Force has no power over them at all, so he was not "still subjet of the will of the force". This is why I ignore Architect's "Nihilus serves the force" argument too. In other ways I agree with him.

 

And as I already said, you are making assumptions. Let's have an example.

 

All Sith are subject to the force, why do you think Palpatine relied so heavily on his prescience (his power to tell the future)? Because he wanted to escape the traps the dark side had set for him. Note also what the Jedi say of the dark side, "it leads only to suffering and ultimately destruction". Nihilus continually 'fed' on the life force of force sensitives to avoid his own destruction, much like Palpatine relied heavily on his prescience to try and avoid his own demise.

 

This is very clear one and false too. No sith thinks like "Omg, DS is going to destroy me!"

 

They don't give **** about it. They think it is just jedi propaganda.

 

Other false assumption you made here is that Nihilus eats the life and force to avoid his own destruction.

 

Apparently, Nihilus is nothing more than raving beast in K2. He eats force because he have to. He starves otherwise. Not to prevent his destruction. He is doomed already. If he still had his sentient being side he would know this. He doesn't. Thus he can't plan anything like that.

 

And like I've said, a Sith could still keep their title and not discard it, but does that mean that they're still a Sith? No, not necessarily, because if you no longer care and follow about the teachings of the Sith, and you're ruled by power (you don't control it) then you're not really a Sith. It's not the title that isimportant. Actions speaks louder than words.

 

Indeed. I could carry placade that has text "King of the world" on it. Does this make me king of the world?

 

And to be more clearier: Let's assume that I once was King of the world. Then I was cast down and stripped of my power ( ) and new, stupid democratical goverments were established around the world. However, I still would have this placade with me. Does this make me king of the world?

Edited November 9, 2006 by Xard

[Darth Blivion]

Umm... None of you have challenged my points. First of all, Nihilus is what he is because of the force, his 'hunger' is a manifestation of the dark side of the force, so he is subject to the will of the force. And yes, the Sith doctrine stresses freedom from all things even the will of the force, but that itself is almost impossible to achieve. No Sith has ever escaped the will of the force.

 

The only person who ever had a chance from breaking away from the will of the force had to loose his connection to it. My point? The Sith are subject to the force, as long as they depend on it, as long as they are connected to it, they are subject to its will - it is the general concept in SW. the Sith beleive that through the dark side they can overcome the will of the force, but they forget or deny the simple overriding idea, that the force governs all beings, irrespective of their affiliations.

 

I've not made a single assumption, I've used established ideas about the force in SW. The sith and even many Jedi are slaves to their power and ambition. A sith will destroy or try to destroy anything that blocks the road to his power. And Sith Lords when they delve deep into the dark side become corrupted by dark side energies, Palpatine's body weakened and aged quickly because of dark side energies and as a result began preparing clones to replace the body that was getting destroyed by dark side energies.

 

Nihilus has to consume the life force of force sensitives otherwise the dark side energies within him will destroy his body. Palpatine delved deeper in the dark side so us to know the future and thereby avoid his demise, as a result of this heavy reliance on the dark side his body began to age/rot faster than normal. Nihilus predicament isn't anything unique among Sith Lords, what distinguishes Nihilus is how his specific problem (the 'hunger') has made him inhuman.

 

Many Sith has had to make a great sacrifice to become powerful in the dark side. Palpatine and Sion (especially) sacrficed their bodies (among many things); Vader sacrificed friendship and love; Kreia sacrificed her ideals; Nihilus sacrificed his humanity.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Darth Blivion

[Darth Blivion]

Also, Architect if you understood the depth of a Sith's dedication to acquire power, you wouldn't be scratching your head over Nihilus' actions. Nihilus became so inhuman that he no longer cared for the teachings of the group he affiliated himself with.

 

You have tried to argue that Nihilus is not a Sith Lord in Kotor 2, but you forget that nothing disqualifies him from the title 'Sith Lord', unless he denounces the title or turns from the dark side, 2 things Nihilus didn't do.

[vaxen83]

Well, some points in thread have been discussed quite a few times previously. Not too sure how this is still being discussed now. Hard to believe that this is still here.

Edited November 10, 2006 by vaxen83

[Guest The Architect]

Well, some points in thread have been discussed quite a few times previously. Not too sure how this is still being discussed now. Hard to believe that this is still here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, you

Edited November 10, 2006 by The Architect

[Xard]

I've not made a single assumption, I've used established ideas about the force in SW.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Funny. Actually "established ideas" about force differ. There is no proof that Force is malicious god as Kreia thinks it is. There is no proof that it has any kind of personality either. There is no proof force isn't malicious god Kreia thinks it is. There is no proof that Force is unsentient and without personality.

 

Umm... None of you have challenged my points. First of all, Nihilus is what he is because of the force, his 'hunger' is a manifestation of the dark side of the force, so he is subject to the will of the force. And yes, the Sith doctrine stresses freedom from all things even the will of the force, but that itself is almost impossible to achieve. No Sith has ever escaped the will of the force.

 

The only person who ever had a chance from breaking away from the will of the force had to loose his connection to it. My point? The Sith are subject to the force, as long as they depend on it, as long as they are connected to it, they are subject to its will - it is the general concept in SW. the Sith beleive that through the dark side they can overcome the will of the force, but they forget or deny the simple overriding idea, that the force governs all beings, irrespective of their affiliations.

 

Funny thing is that Nihilus is hole in the force. Did you forget that suddenly? Just like Exile, he is "free" from Force. And slave of his hunger. He has escaped will of the force (if it exists...). He has no connection to it.

 

Also, we don't know how Sion became walking corpse. He might've been victim of MSG, just like Nihilus. Kreia made him even worse.

 

Many Sith has had to make a great sacrifice to become powerful in the dark side. Palpatine and Sion (especially) sacrficed their bodies (among many things); Vader sacrificed friendship and love; Kreia sacrificed her ideals; Nihilus sacrificed his humanity.

 

Funny. The Kreia part I mean. She didn't want to become strong sith, she wanted to kill the force.

 

It's funny how you think they did those things knowing it. Vader didn't intend to sacrifice anything. He turned to DS because of Palpatine's manipulation and his love for Padme.

 

Also quickly rotting body of Palpy is EU plot device before prequel time. It might've taken whole life of using DS to make Palpatine look like he did. He already looked like that during EP I & II (he just masked it), by using logic even earlier. However, he did not have clone bodies by then.

 

I propably overused word funny. Whatever

Edited November 10, 2006 by Xard

[Darth Blivion]

At the end of the day their is no set criteria that determines what is or isn't a Sith Lord once the authors have already designated the title ('Sith Lord') to their characters. Nihilus became a Sith and died, a planet-eating Sith Lord.

[Xard]

 

Sith Lord is just title. And yes, there is set criteria that determines what is Sith Lord and what isn't.

[JediMasterAltena]

Darth Sion, he would be a lot harder if it wasen't for Master Speed, Master Flurry of course if the lvl cap was 20 and not 50 ^^

[Dark_Raven]

The issue with your level is it reflects on how strong your end boss is. If you are level 30 than the game will adapt someone like Kreia to be level 30.

[JediMasterAltena]

The issue with your level is it reflects on how strong your end boss is. If you are level 30 than the game will adapt someone like Kreia to be level 30.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thats also a problem really, because if you've played Kotor 1 if you don't level Revan at all at Tarnis, youll notice Bajin and such will instent kill you. while if your lvled you can easily, fight him without dying.

[Darth Blivion]

 

Sith Lord is just title. And yes, there is set criteria that determines what is Sith Lord and what isn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's too bad that criteria has nothing to do with an author creating a Sith Lord character within his LA licensed story <sacarsm>. Nihilus IS a Sith Lord, and there is no set criteria for determining a Sith Lord's character.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Darth Blivion

[vaxen83]

Right. Got your point. Character concepts can be flexible and don't really have to be set. Mentioned it before, anyway.

Edited November 11, 2006 by vaxen83

[Purgatorio]

 

Sith Lord is just title. And yes, there is set criteria that determines what is Sith Lord and what isn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's too bad that criteria has nothing to do with an author creating a Sith Lord character within his LA licensed story <sacarsm>. Nihilus IS a Sith Lord, and there is no set criteria for determining a Sith Lord's character.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm... I thought there were a whole bunch of.... people that make sure a plot or character conforms to canon. [/sarcasm is the lowest form of wit]

[DeathScepter]

To me, A Sith Lord follows the Sith Pathway to Power and Not an ravaging beast that devours the force.

 

 

 

Sion is more of a Sith Lord than Nihilus is.........

[Darth Osiris]

Vader sacrificed friendship and love; Kreia sacrificed her ideals; Nihilus sacrificed his humanity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No matter how dark someone could become, I still find it surprising that someone could forsake their friendship for power, let alone love. Between ultimate power and my love, my love would come first any day.

 

But back to the point at hand, Darth Nihilus is precisely that: a Darth. And last time I checked, a Darth is the same thing as a sith lord, is it not?

[DeathScepter]

Darth is The Dark Lord of the Sith. Which Nihilus was one comes to many of the Kotor fans.

[Hanharr]

It's simple really. Nihilus lords over a sect of Sith, thus he is a Sith Lord.