Jacob's bad luck: Is it . . . Satan?

[Krookie]

The Exorcism of John Jacob (JINGLE HEIMER SCHMIDT?!!?)

[Archmonarch]

I think perhaps I should qualify my earlier post, though I know the commentary here was not directly targeting me. And hopefully, I can speak for those of a mindset similar my own:

 

I have no problem with religion, one way or another. People can believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't affect anyone else. What I have a problem with is the arrogance and presumed superiority some have that allows them to feel justified in imposing their positions on others as the "right path."

 

What WITHTEETH says is somewhat accurate, many citizens of the US are angered and discomfited by the path our country seems to be taking. Perhaps we do have an axe to grind, but it does not excuse intolerance. And so if any of my posts have seemed anti-spiritualistic, I sincerely apologize.

 

Nevertheless, as I once read, "Lord save me from prophets and fools."

Edited June 26, 2006 by Archmonarch

[Laozi]

This guys probaly mormon, so it might be one of his wifes thats out to get him, or maybe a salamander.

[WITHTEETH]

Anyways, considering all this stuff is cyclical, I just figure we should be as tolerant as we can.  That way, in 20 years, you can look back and say "I wasn't a **** to people."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not an argument, it's an observation.  And I'm making it strictly about our little forum family.  I've seen numerous posts on how religion is stupid and belief in God is moronic.  It just seems very intolerant to me.  I don't go around insulting non-believers on these boards, but it seems to be open season against spirituality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the United States religion is trying to pry its way into the constitution, classrooms, and foreign affairs, so the reality community has an axe to grind i suppose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"reality community" lol So are you trying to say that justifies behavior on this forum?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe my behavior went over the line. I was tolerent, i certainly do not have to be a brown nose. I just defend reality wherever i see it may be dismissed. Religion is to taboo, and maybe its because society supposedly is not suppose to have an open discussion about it like this. We should always be free to renew and update or beliefs, so lets talk!

 

Reality-based community

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"Reality-based community" is a popular term among Internet bloggers that is an example of political framing. In the fall of 2004, the phrase "proud member of the reality-based community," was first used to suggest the blogger's opinions are based more on observation than faith, assumption, or ideology and that others who disagree are unrealistic. The term has been defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from [their] judicious study of discernible reality." Some bloggers have gone as far as to suggest that there is an overarching conflict in society between the reality-based community and the "faith-based community" as a whole.

 

The source of the term is a quotation in an October 17, 2004, New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind, quoting an unnamed aide to George W. Bush:

 

    The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality

[Hurlshort]

Wow, that's an incredibly arrogant statement by that aide...but I think he's right.

 

Edit: After thinking on it a bit, I'm still not clear on something. Is the "reality community directly opposite the "Faith community"? It just seems like the lines are blurry here. I consider myself a member of both camps...is that supposed to be impossible?

Edited June 26, 2006 by Hurlshot

[WITHTEETH]

Wow, that's an incredibly arrogant statement by that aide...but I think he's right.

 

Edit:  After thinking on it a bit, I'm still not clear on something.  Is the "reality community directly opposite the "Faith community"?  It just seems like the lines are blurry here.  I consider myself a member of both camps...is that supposed to be impossible?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its seems like the aide is saying that the Faith-based community is the opposite. Theres always a grey area, and most people always tend to fall into the grey area. Especially those that may take a book somewhat figuratively.

[Dark Moth]

I don't believe my behavior went over the line. I was tolerent, i certainly do not have to be a brown nose. I just defend reality wherever i see it may be dismissed. Religion is to taboo, and maybe its because society supposedly is not suppose to have an open discussion about it like this. We should always be free to renew and update or beliefs, so lets talk!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said your behavior went over the line, and I certainly don't think you have to be a brown nose about it. And I'm always up for talking, provided it doesn't degenerate to bashing, which happens hear often enough. Religion-bashing doesn't get me most riled, though it certainly doesn't make me feel all warm inside. There's a strong atheist/agnosic community on these boards, so of course we're going to see a bunch of that and double standards. What upsets me most is when people make statements or generalizations about anything, such as religion, when they know next to nothing about it. Hypocrisy is another thing I can't stand, another thing that happens hear all too often. Anyway, what's happening or what you think is happening in America aside, do you really think that it excuses a lot of the bashing that goes on around here? I don't think you do, but I could be wrong.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Mothman

[WITHTEETH]

The outside world and this forum can't be seperated as I see it unless I become a zombie at my computer. Where I come from empiricism is bashed, that is not wrong, I do not mind, in fact i like these discussions! Its kinda like whatever country bans flag burning, they should get their flag burned. So whatever religion bans blasphemy, they should receive blasphemy. Its the personal attacks that can hurt, and that should be seperated in these especially taboo subjects that we should strive to get out into the open.

Edited June 26, 2006 by WITHTEETH

[Dark Moth]

Empiricism is bashed where you come from? That's funny. Unfortunately, I'm part of the "faith-based" community. I'm very philosophical too, you know (my philosophy just happens to be predominantly Christian), so I do believe in some things based on what my heart, not reason, tells me. Unlike Judge Hades, I cannot empirically prove the existance of God (not yet, anyway), so that gives me a handicap in any argument. And as far as science has progressed, it still cannot explain everything. There are gaps which still has yet to be filled. Some fill it religion, others philosphy, others with reasoning. I simply try to fill it with what I believe is the truth. But therein lies another problem: what we sometimes might believe to be truth may in fact be far from it. And that of course is where faith comes in again.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Mothman

[WITHTEETH]

"...thats where faith comes in"

 

What type of faith? The faith of believing in things you can't perceive, or the kind of faith in believing the things you can perceive? It may be safer to jump on a stone you can see instead of jumping into an abyss of unreason.

 

EDIT: I should write fortune cookies!

Edited June 26, 2006 by WITHTEETH

[Dark Moth]

As in things we can't percieve, of course. I do perceive God, but indirectly. I see it in the world, in history, in people, etc. I also try to see where my faith has gotten me. Before I actually found my faith I was a different person than I was now. I believe I've changed for the better. And well, it certainly hasn't hurt me at all. In fact I believe it's helped me. Besides, we all have to take a leap in the abyss at some point in our lives. There isn't always a stone there that we can see to stop our fall.

[Hurlshort]

The whole argument that it's either faith or reason is bunk to me. I have great reasons for my faith. Believing in a higher power seems very reasonable in my eyes. I look around at the beauty of our world, the emotions I feel for others, and the satisfaction I get from livng a good life. Those things make it very easy for me to believe that there is some master plan. It's much harder for me to believe that this is all just a random sequence of events.

[Dark Moth]

So...you're saying you base your faith on reason? Am I right? That is what I believe is the best kind of faith. Blind faith in my eyes is never a good thing. And anyone with blind faith can be led astray anywhere, as if they were blind themselves. So I too try to base my faith on reason.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Mothman

[Hurlshort]

So...you're saying you base your faith on reason?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure. I'm actually saying I have plenty of reasons to have faith, but whatever. The point is, it's not hocus pocus in my eyes.

[Calax]

I base my faith on stupidity of happiness.

[WITHTEETH]

So...you're saying you base your faith on reason?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I try to have as little faith as possible, none if feasible. I will believe in a god if you can show me the money. But that is impossible since your religion is faith, and if you could ever prove the existance of god, you would no longer have faith but evidence, Catch-22. I beleive their may be logical explinations for gods, but until I actually see those gods I will not believe in them.

 

I base my reality on reason, atleast I try.

[Dark Moth]

Yes. And I guess until we die, we won't really know for sure, will we? There is evidence for God, though a lot of it's abstract. Personally, I prefer evidence over faith. Then at least we can remove some of the barriers that separate the faithful from the rationalists. I'm always on the search for evidence. Then again, "blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe..." Anyway, we may have to pick this up some other time. I'd love to stay and continue this discussion, but I have to sleep. I am only human, after all. ^_^ G'night.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Mothman

[tarna]

...I'm part of the "faith-based" community.  I'm very philosophical too, you know (my philosophy just happens to be predominantly Christian), so I do believe in some things based on what my heart, not reason, tells me. 

...And as far as science has progressed, it still cannot explain everything.  There are gaps which still has yet to be filled. 

Some fill it religion, others philosphy, others with reasoning.  I simply try to fill it with what I believe is the truth.  But therein lies another problem: what we sometimes might believe to be truth may in fact be far from it.  And that of course is where faith comes in again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Other than through a brain MRI ( magnetic resonance imaging ), we cannot 'prove' the existance of love either but we pretty much universally acknowledge it's existance. Faith, like love, we will have problems quantifying it yet we agree that it exists. As someone who's background is heavily based in science, I make most of my decisions based on science and reason. However, as a priest, I also must acknowledge the 'human factor' and our need to have something 'larger than life' that looks over us and is responsible to and for us. Call it God, the Force, Karma, Gaia, whatever, the need is still there for many of us and it would be foolish to disreguard that aspect of humanity. That's actually why I became a priest BTW. I was atheistic prior to that. For many years, the Church declared that the world was flat. Obviously, they were wrong but the human need for that sort of structure is still needed for the emotional well being of many people. Some individual people/organization abuse that fact but they are in the minority. By and large, the Church supports the emotional needs of the folks that have that spiritual need to know that 'God' is watching out for them.

 

Those of you that base 'all' your decisions on science and reason, quantify that mathematically.

[Atreides]

How do I destroy world?

[Calax]

...I'm part of the "faith-based" community.  I'm very philosophical too, you know (my philosophy just happens to be predominantly Christian), so I do believe in some things based on what my heart, not reason, tells me. 

...And as far as science has progressed, it still cannot explain everything.  There are gaps which still has yet to be filled. 

Some fill it religion, others philosphy, others with reasoning.  I simply try to fill it with what I believe is the truth.  But therein lies another problem: what we sometimes might believe to be truth may in fact be far from it.  And that of course is where faith comes in again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Other than through a brain MRI ( magnetic resonance imaging ), we cannot 'prove' the existance of love either but we pretty much universally acknowledge it's existance. Faith, like love, we will have problems quantifying it yet we agree that it exists. As someone who's background is heavily based in science, I make most of my decisions based on science and reason. However, as a priest, I also must acknowledge the 'human factor' and our need to have something 'larger than life' that looks over us and is responsible to and for us. Call it God, the Force, Karma, Gaia, whatever, the need is still there for many of us and it would be foolish to disreguard that aspect of humanity. That's actually why I became a priest BTW. I was atheistic prior to that. For many years, the Church declared that the world was flat. Obviously, they were wrong but the human need for that sort of structure is still needed for the emotional well being of many people. Some individual people/organization abuse that fact but they are in the minority. By and large, the Church supports the emotional needs of the folks that have that spiritual need to know that 'God' is watching out for them.

 

Those of you that base 'all' your decisions on science and reason, quantify that mathematically.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and if you don't need to know that god is watching out for you? Kinda leaves a giant hole in the theroy of "humans NEED to have a religion to believe that theres SOMTHING out there that caused all this" doesn't it...

[Colrom]

The whole argument that it's either faith or reason is bunk to me.  I have great reasons for my faith.  Believing in a higher power seems very reasonable in my eyes.  I look around at the beauty of our world, the emotions I feel for others, and the satisfaction I get from livng a good life.  Those things make it very easy for me to believe that there is some master plan.  It's much harder for me to believe that this is all just a random sequence of events.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I don't see why a random series of events can't be part of a master plan. Especially since the product of many random events can often be practically predicted with high confidence.

 

And besides - imagine that the random events that you caused to be and that were random when they occured are now history - and completely known to you. That might be a way to think about God.

 

As soon as someone characterizes God in temperal terms it is certain that they are discussing a demigod.

 

The way I decide if they are discussing a demigod is by asking: "Can the God they describe be suprised?" If the answer is "No", then they may be talking about God. Otherwise they are talking about a demigod or less.

 

Anyway, I think this fellow believes what he is saying, but is not thinking very clearly and will not be a good representative.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Colrom

[metadigital]

Nah, he's evil and using faith as a smokescreen, relying on the good nature and benevolent assumptions of the Christian community ...

[Blarghagh]

I'd appreciate it if you damn heretics would shut the heck up. It honestly pains me to see my religion bashed, especially since you bashers probably know less than a scintilla about it.

 

Please.

 

I just graduated from a christian school and we had Bible Study, and I pretty much agree with everything that's been said.

 

It's sad that the normal, smart christians are always so content with being regular people while the extremists always go and spread their often misconstrued bible passages into politics.

[Walsingham]

For my bachelor's degree I went to a college where they trained priests next door. It was never the priests who tried to ram religion down my gullet. It was the regular students. All feverishly trying to get Jesus attention by being holier than the next guy. Which I always thought was hilarious because even my sunday school teacher had taught me that attitude was totally against the principles of the faith.

 

I'm not religious, but I know the power of faith, and that alone should warrant more than instant dismissal. Faith can start wars and intolerance, but Faith also drives people to end them. Just to pluck three names out of the air, try Martin Luther King, Bishop Colenso, and Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

 

I also just realised, while reading this, that many of us have faith, just in other things: ourselves or our parents or our friends. Are these faiths wrong, just because if we scrutinise them really hard we will see they lack the strongest foundations? Isn't faith really a bit like the proverbial Stone Soup? You make it what it is.

 

Just a thought.

[Calax]

playing holier than thou in college is rather easy...