Am I the only one...

[ColonelKilgore]

Am I the only one who really misses the ability to play CRPG's as a pacifist? I've always loved playing through Planescape: Torment only fighting four or five battles. I've found it's way more interesting to see how you can avoid a battle rather than fighting it, and it also improves the backstory of your character. Just a thought, I loved the KOTOR's, especially II, but I long not to have to fight all the time.

[Volourn]

"Am I the only one who really misses the ability to play CRPG's as a pacifist? I've always loved playing through Planescape: Torment only fighting four or five battles."

 

 

You were an AWESOME pacifist! "

 

 

P.S. I think pacifism, by itself, is overrated in CRPGs. First off, no CRPG has done it from what i[ve seen. Secondly, many times the 'pacifistic'/non combat choices comes off of being forced or fake just so it can be claimed to include it. Including a non combat conclsuion to all quests (or 95% in those games that include them) comes off as stitled; not reasonable. The Master in FO1 is a prime example of this. You point out one thing, say a few words, and the Master blows himself up within seconds. Whatever, I say. Whatever.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Volourn

[ColonelKilgore]

Maybe pacifist wasn't the right word. I want to be able to play as someone to makes choices that rarely involve fighting. Few games seem to want to let me do this. Why did I have to kill x? I didn't want to. I wanted to do y. I think it goes back to that there should be more REAL choices in rpgs, not this feeling that you're choosing dialogue options that end up not mattering because you kill this guy anyway.

[Gfted1]

Ive never played PS:T or any other game where you can charm/bluff/diplomat your way through a game. Dont you miss out on a ton of loot that would be otherwise scavenged from the corpses of your enemies? Ala, you had to kill Firkraag to get the HA.

[Haitoku]

I agree.

 

I tried making a character like that in Oblivion... man I was getting owned. =(

[Llyranor]

many times the 'pacifistic'/non combat choices comes off of being forced or fake

Yeah, combat never feels forced in games.

 

"Nice hat!"

"You will die!!!"

[SteveThaiBinh]

Am I the only one who really misses the ability to play CRPG's as a pacifist?

Yes, you are.

... Just a thought, I loved the KOTOR's, especially II, but I long not to have to fight all the time.

Honestly, what's wrong with you? I personally only play Kotor 2 for the deep, fulfilling role-playing experience of sending my light-side mastery Jedi hacking his way through dozens of hapless, hugely-overpowered Onderon soldiers who are only fighting because of Sith coercion.

 

I've played Arcanum through as a pacifist, but never completed the Fallouts. What other games are you thinking of that had realistic pacifist paths to winning?

[ColonelKilgore]

Ive never played PS:T or any other game where you can charm/bluff/diplomat your way through a game. Dont you miss out on a ton of loot that would be otherwise scavenged from the corpses of your enemies? Ala, you had to kill Firkraag to get the HA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, you sort of do miss out on that loot, but if you're not fighting anyone anyway why does that matter? Most things that improve intelligence, wisdom, charisma (a diplomat's tools) can generally be gained without fighting.

[ColonelKilgore]

All I'm saying is this: I don't want to play on a fixed path with all the choices made for me; I want to roleplay, I want to develop MY character, not the designer's character. And if what that character would do in a situation would be non-violent, so be it.

[Llyranor]

Check out this thread http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=42139 and read the RPGdot interview on page 2.

 

RPGDot: You once argued that - ideally - a diplomatic solution should be available for every quest - are you pursuing that philosophy with AoD?

 

    Iron Tower: Yes, you can beat the game, using nothing but diplomatic skills. If one character can kill everything that opposes him in a gameworld, including entire armies, I see no reason why a diplomatic character can't influence, manipulate, persuade people and play them against each other. Makes way more sense.

 

RPGDot: Dialogue: how important is it and what sort of system have you created? We've seen skill modifiers in screenshots - how widely is this used?

 

    Iron Tower: Considering that you play the entire game without attacking anyone, dialogues are, obviously, important. I didn't create or *cough* redefined any system, as the standard dialogue trees with skill checks do the job extremely well. Stat/skills/reputation/items check are everywhere.

 

RPGDot: While stat-checks in dialogue reward players for developing certain traits, it can sometimes lead to less interactivity. For example, a high-intelligence character might be given additional dialogue options that provide a direct resolution - but the player has to do little other than pump points into the stat. Do you see this as an issue?

 

    Iron Tower: It depends on the design, doesn't it? Granted, if all you do is pick the best line every time, it is very boring. We don't have simplistic scenarios where you have one "trial point" for all character types, we have more complex situations that require a different gameplay style. For example, you are asked to free a noble kidnapped by a raiders gang. A fighter goes and kills the raiders, which is a rather straightforward approach. A talkative character has a lot more options there. He can negotiate the ransom, and with some trading skills he can even pocket the difference. Alternatively, he can convince a faction (The Thieves Guild won't be too happy about some raiders moving into the Guild's territory, and the Imperial Guards might be convinced to handle that for you too) to help you. Nothing is free though.

 

RPGDot: One of your stated goals is to make each skill meaningful. How much effort has been put into this and ultimately, how many skill-related paths are you aiming to offer?

 

    Iron Tower: A lot? Not enough? Hard to say. We've tried to offer as many logical ways of dealing with each situation as possible. So, let's say, if you see a gate, locked at night, guarded during the day, you should be able to open the lock, sneak, steal a key, fight your way in, talk your way in, disguise yourself, climb the wall, find someone who has a pass, and steal it, trade it, or convince this person to give it to you, etc. The trick is to find out who has the pass, where is the key, who is allowed to pass freely, etc, as such info isn't given to you on a platter.

 

Skills are explained on the site, so don't forget to take a look, but here are some alternative explanations:

 

Streetwise is a counter-persuasion skill. It's that inner voice that warns you that something doesn't sound right, and that the offer you've just received is just too good to be true.

 

Etiquette?

 

It's the art of knowing and successfully applying different codes of behaviour. How do you bribe a lord without insulting him by implying that his goodwill is for sale? What's the perfect balance of showing your respect to a local kingpin without inviting him to walk all over you? That's what Etiquette handles.

 

Disguise?

 

It's a rare ability of talking the talk, while walking the walk. It's an art of impersonating and behaving like you are someone else. Don't want to do some "admission" quests to get to see a local lord? Pretend that you are a knight from another House on a diplomatic mission and dare some peasant guards to stop you.

 

Each quest has 3-6 different ways of solving it. That should encourage players to approach quests more carefully, consider pros & cons of different choices available to them, and pick what fits your character the most.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Llyranor

[Volourn]

"Yeah, combat never feels forced in games.

 

"Nice hat!"

"You will die!!!""

 

Games that have senariors like that are just as bad. If anything, you proved my point.

 

 

"I've played Arcanum through as a pacifist"

 

Really cna't be a pacifist in Arcanum unless you spend your time running and running and running. So, I call that cowardice not pacifism.

[ColonelKilgore]

I just want to know why role-playing always has to involve killing.

[Volourn]

It doesn't if it's actually role-playing. The KOTORs both have lots of killing; but there's more thana few opportuntiies that you can avoid bloodshed. the same is true for JE, BL, NWN, ARC, FO series, and a host of other games.

[Llyranor]

What do you think is easier to produce mass amounts of? Dialogue that doesn't make players throw the game away in disgust, or lots of stuff to murder and ravage?

[Hassat Hunter]

All I'm saying is this: I don't want to play on a fixed path with all the choices made for me; I want to roleplay, I want to develop MY character, not the designer's character. And if what that character would do in a situation would be non-violent, so be it.

 

And then you use PS:T as example?

 

Really; PS:T was combat-heavy... VERY combat-heavy.

[ColonelKilgore]

It doesn't if it's actually role-playing. The KOTORs both have lots of killing; but there's more thana  few opportuntiies that you can avoid bloodshed. the same is true for JE, BL, NWN, ARC, FO series, and a host of other games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know, and I love those games. But I would like to see it implemented a little bit more. Ever tried to play the diplomat in any Elder Scrolls games?

[astr0creep]

I just want to know why role-playing always has to involve killing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What would you propose to a developper then?

 

If not violence to keep the player interested, in a RPG, then what?

 

Perhaps something similar to Indigo Prophecy? Avoiding damage and running away by pushing buttons? You'd get xp by completing the sequence, some skills making various types of sequences easier maybe.

 

 

 

Hmm...

[SteveThaiBinh]

I just want to know why role-playing always has to involve killing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the developers put a lot of effort into the combat system as a major selling point of any game, so I guess they think it's a shame if players don't use it. Plus there's probably only a tiny percentage of purchasers who would want to play a completely pacifist route, so it's a lot of work for the designers to build a non-violent workaround to every problem involving, as Volourn says, some rather stilted and unconvincing solutions at times. Better to spend that time making customisable sleeves on your armour or soil erosion or various other fancy things like that.

 

Running is good exercise.

[Volourn]

"Ever tried to play the diplomat in any Elder Scrolls games?"

 

Heh. I had a hard enough time trying to play the ES games at all. :D

 

The thing with computer role-playing games - espicially the fantasy ones is that they foten deal with things like monsters and the like that simply don't talk.

 

A lot of people seem to think that it's like in the real world where it's posisble to 'talk down' possible violent people. You simply cna't see too many ogres or giants negotiating with a PC. Not to mention the mutants in FO. Not to mention all the non intelligent monsters.

 

This si why I think it'll be possible for VD to pull off logical non combat situations in his game; because most of the encounters will involve human beings.

[LadyCrimson]

I suppose avoiding combat as much as possible in order to beat a game while still lvl 1 doesn't count? (aka Might & Magic's) lol..that was fun running through some of the most heavily populated enemey areas invisible, trying to complete quests w/out being seen/detected.

 

I agree tho...games should at least have an option to play/win the game with a non-combat method. It would make things more interesting.

[Plano Skywalker]

I do like the idea of a MacGyver-type game...using one's brain and trying to minimize *any* violence (lethal or otherwise)....using audial decoys and the like.

 

however, I think this is something we are more likely to see in an adventure game rather than an RPG....phat loot is just too much a part of the RPG experience.

 

Indigo Prophecy/Farenheit shows how non-violent solutions can work well and still be very exciting.

 

fortunately, we are starting to see some *true* adventure games reemerging.

[Hassat Hunter]

I do like the idea of a MacGyver-type game...using one's brain and trying to minimize *any* violence (lethal or otherwise)....using audial decoys and the like.

 

Try a game called "Commando's"

[Plano Skywalker]

Try a game called "Commando's"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thanks for the tip...looks like they even have it on the hexbox:

http://www.activewin.com/reviews/xbox/soft...os2/index.shtml

[Lare Kikkeli]

I do like the idea of a MacGyver-type game...using one's brain and trying to minimize *any* violence (lethal or otherwise)....using audial decoys and the like.

 

Try a game called "Commando's"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

while it might have been possible to finish commandos without killing anyone (although i doubt it), it certainly wasnt meant to be played that way.

[astr0creep]

I do like the idea of a MacGyver-type game...using one's brain and trying to minimize *any* violence (lethal or otherwise)....using audial decoys and the like.

 

however, I think this is something we are more likely to see in an adventure game rather than an RPG....phat loot is just too much a part of the RPG experience.

 

Indigo Prophecy/Farenheit shows how non-violent solutions can work well and still be very exciting.

 

fortunately, we are starting to see some *true* adventure games reemerging.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A while ago I started a game design based on real world knowledge. It was mostly an adventure game and I got my inspiration from Indiana Jones(the movies) and Tomb Raider(the games).

The idea was exploring caves, ruins and catacombs and solving puzzles. When a puzzle failed, traps would be sprung and action ensued.

The puzzle were all based on real world enigmas and traps that were found in real life excavations and the game forced the player to use google and wiki in order to find the information necessary to solve the puzzles.

My goal was to make a game that was both full of action and educational at the same time, aimed at the 17-30 year olds.

I was unable to find enough traps/puzzle ideas and I noticed that the whole thing was too much like my inspiration material... But there was no killing involved, not even firearms.

Meh.