Age of Decadence

[Tigranes]

Molyneux is far more likely to achive his stupid hype (with his almost unlimited resources), then a small budget indie Dev. I'm also not seeing any more substance to VDs Aod hype, then what Molyneux had with his Fables.

 

Okay, let me spell it out:

 

1/ In Black and White, Black and White 2, Fable, etc., Peter Molyneux has repeatedly talked about how amazing his games are going to be and how they are going to do such and such things. While his insistence that his games are groundbreaking joymakers are simply more annoying than fallacious, he has consistently failed to deliver on his promises, a fact that he admits himself. So when he's talking about his new game (yeah, the one where you can mash one button to win battles and he advertises this as a new feature) in exactly the same way he's talked about his older games, you'd have to be logically bankrupt to be unable to draw the conclusion.

 

2/ Please go look at VD's play-throughs and extensive C&C examples; the sample rate is high (more examples than those given in the entire hype-run of, say, Oblivion), some examples allowed the readers to pick options, so that VD can't just pick the most consequenc-y outcomes, and they were detailed. Thus there is a lot more substance.

 

I would also note that the comment about unlimited resources really has absolutely nothing to do with discussion, because it's not a lack of resources that stops Molyneux from doing what he wants, its poor conceptualisation and poor management - something which he's pretty much admitted himself over the years. That good C&C is 'hard', again, doesn't change anything, either.

 

If he hasn't said this, that's fine and my bad

 

I am glad we have worked this out.

 

In general - I don't see where the problem is, to be honest. VD is an outspoken and harsh indie dev that has a very specific vision of what an RPG should be, and is trying very hard to make it. He may succeed or he may not, but he is open about the process and is willing to honestly argue any part of the process, and he is showing as much pre-release 'evidence' as is realistically possible. To me if someone has a specific vision, provides a fair amount of things that indicate progress towards that vision, and speaks frankly about the process, that's enough to be excited about the project. The rest, about whether VD is 'Codexian', whether 'expectations differ' between VD and mainstream devs (well, duh) or the fact that previews can never guarantee a great end product (again, duh) are... well, quite irrelevant. There's a lot of fluff there.

[alanschu]

What exactly does it offer that's different from mainstream games?

Salvation.

 

 

HAHAHA.

 

Why did I ever think you were annoying!?

[alanschu]

Hype is hype be it from Molyneux or VD. I've got nothing against it, just don't expect me to believe it.

 

We have hype from a proven liar, and hype from an unproven person with a lot more substance to back up that hype than the former. You're going to treat both in exactly the same way? I'm not sure why you would do that.

 

Isn't that what we're supposed to do

 

 

I think it was CrashGirl that said it pretty well. You have some people that see eye-to-eye with what VD values in an RPG. I'm not too surprised you're going to get those people accepting lesser quality in other aspects of the game if they think it'll be more than made up for in other aspects they value.

Edited August 18, 2009 by alanschu

[Aristes]

Tig said something that finally removed my ambivalence. "VD is an outspoken and harsh indie dev that has a very specific vision of what an RPG should be, and is trying very hard to make it."

 

Wait. That's not really it.

 

It was:

 

"VD is an outspoken and harsh indie dev..."

 

Nope. Not quite. It's:

 

"VD is... harsh..."

 

...But he's not just harsh. He's the champion of being a complete **** about game design. It's not that he's demonstrated personally narrow tastes over the years. It's that he's dismissive and obnoxious about other folks' efforts. I'm tired of hearing about Molyneux. Seriously. I am. Molyneux said that his game would do great things? Really? And that's a crime? He said we'd develop an emotional attachment to a dog in his game? And we should hate him for that? 'Cause that's what a lot of the folks praising VD seem to be doing, hating Molyneux. I remember going to some sort of display/conference/thing some years ago where the Big M-man showcased... it had to have been Fable, looking at the timeframe. So, I go to this thing and he's talking about his game. I played a little bit of Fable at the time. It hadn't been released yet, so it was a preview of the game. I thought it looked okayish. I don't remember playing the little demo and thinking, "wow, this guy is terrible. He's actually telling me that his game is awesome whereas I think it's merely mediocre." I eventually bought the game and played it. Once again, it came up as okayish. Never once did I think to myself, "how dare that weird guy with the strange looking name claim that his game would be good?!" I tell you what I might have said if it had been VD. "Wow, this guy dishes out a lot of crap about other folks' games but his ain't all that."

 

So, I'm not picking up AoD after all. I don't see why I should spend my cash to subsidize someone's petty grievances against some dude who created a couple games I really enjoyed and couple of games that were mediocre and a boatload of games I never even played. "But wait!" you might say. "Isn't that cutting off your nose to spite your face? It might be a great game!" My answer is, my nose will be just fine. There are countless great games that come out every year that I never play. AoD, great, terrible, or in the middle, won't even be a blip on my radar. If I had VD's narrow tastes, then I would probably buy it no matter what. In the old days, when there weren't a lot of games out on the market and I played them quite a few hours a week, I was stuck. Now? *shrug* Games are like busses. I catch the next one.

 

I doubt my stance on this issue concerns VD much. I know his stance on my stance doesn't concern me at all. Frankly, if I bother reading this thread in the future, it will be because I'm generally interested in the debate rather than the issue. You guys still have a free flame Aristes card, but I wouldn't bother if I were you. Won't matter much anyhow. I simply won't support VDs efforts in any way.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So, I'm not picking up AoD after all. I don't see why I should spend my cash to subsidize someone's petty grievances against some dude who created a couple games I really enjoyed and couple of games that were mediocre and a boatload of games I never even played.

Wow. I think Molyneux is barely even on Vince's radar screen. Vince isn't making his game to spite Molyneux, or Bethesda for that matter, he's making a game he himself would like to play. Also, excellent post Tig, it summarizes everything nicely.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Impressions of the combat demo: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index...pic,1055.0.html (no, it's not out, it's being played by 12 outside people)

Edited September 22, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Morgoth]

I'll see for myself when I get my hand on the demo.

[Board Dumb]

Why is Thursday so far away?

[Jora]

I've been playing the beta whenever I have time (which sadly isn't often), but I'm really enjoying it. Of course, the combat isn't on par with the best squad-level tactical games, but seeing as the finished product is going to be a single-player CRPG I think it will do just fine. Even though the system is relatively simple and easy to learn, it still offers a good variety of combat styles and weapons.

 

I'm very impressed by how smooth the controls are. The camera is easy to adjust with the mouse wheel and the interface is very clear. Clicking NPCs and objects with the left mouse button opens up a window in which you can choose the action you want to take. I can't tell you how relieved I was about this, because I had just finished my second playthrough of Mask of the Betrayer, a game that has one of the worst interface systems ever. :horror:

 

I'm also glad that the inventory is easy to manage. The icons are easily distinguishable and you can use filters and the mouse wheel to navigate the item lists.

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2009 by Jora

[Slowtrain]

Those screenies look great.

[Purkake]

Demo or bust.

[Jora]

The public version of the combat beta shouldn't be far off. They are fine-tuning the combat balance (right now it favors blocking over dodging) based on tester feedback and implementing sounds, AFAIK.

[Jora]

The combat demo will be released for public testing on Friday:

 

It will be released on the 25th. No countdowns. Currently I'm making hosting arrangements. Our bandwidth is 5GB but I don't think it would last longer than 2-3 days (based on the video downloads and site stats).

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=996597#996597

[Starwars]

Let the bitchin' about grafix begin anew!

[Killian Kalthorne]

Well, the graphics do look like it five years old if not older, but graphics aren't the important bit when it comes to RPGs.

[Oner]

Well, the graphics do look like it five years old if not older, but graphics aren't the important bit when it comes to RPGs.

Unless they're hideous and cause cancer of course.

[Purkake]

Well, the graphics do look like it five years old if not older, but graphics aren't the important bit when it comes to RPGs.

These days, it's the art style that matters. You need talent to get a decent art style, not a million "artists" to do a billion hi-res textures.

 

This is how you get from this:

 

To this:

[Oner]

Purkake: http://www.kongregate.com/games/ArmorGames/upgrade-complete

This is a better example IMO.

[Purkake]

 

More like Capitalism - The Game.

[Killian Kalthorne]

These days, it's the art style that matters. You need talent to get a decent art style, not a million "artists" to do a billion hi-res textures.

 

No argument from me there.

[Tigranes]

Aha, so this time Vince keeps his schedule, before the year's end. I still think releasing a combat demo, as opposed to a 'taste-it-all' demo, is going to result in a lot of misunderstanding, but I suppose he has his reasons, production-wise.

 

It'll be something to get my teeth into over my annual leave, excellent.

[Purkake]

It better be as tactically awesome as Jagged Alliance 2 or I will be severely disappointed.

[Jora]

Well, in terms of tactics the combat system is better than Fallout's but being a single person RPG it's obviously nowhere near JA2 or, say, ToEE.

[Purkake]

Can I at least hit people in the groin, with a spear?

Edited December 22, 2009 by Purkake

[Gromnir]

Aha, so this time Vince keeps his schedule, before the year's end. I still think releasing a combat demo, as opposed to a 'taste-it-all' demo, is going to result in a lot of misunderstanding, but I suppose he has his reasons, production-wise.

 

It'll be something to get my teeth into over my annual leave, excellent.

 

some people will say the demo is great.

 

some people will say that the demo is crap.

 

some people will actually form an opinion based on their experience with the demo, but we suspect that those people is a minority.

 

as we said before, low expectations does not improve the quality o' the game/gameplay... though we expect to see some qualifiers whenever folks discuss merits and flaws o' aod.

 

HA! Good Fun!