death rules

[Judge Hades]

I rather have it that any character, NPC or PC can die and the story adapts for NPC deaths but when a PC death happens you either reload or make a new PC.

[Volourn]

"main plot....Kreia, for instance, was an inner circle character"

 

Meh. They could ahve written the KOTOR2 story in a way to make it possible for Kreia to die... they just didn't bother...

 

And, I;m not picking on Obsidian either.. KOTOR1 was guilty of this as well...

 

However, KOTOR does not equal NWN2. NWN2 is a D&D game. Unlike KOTOR, D&d is about the combination of story, characters, CHOICE, and challenging combat.

 

Game over.

 

P.S. Hades wins.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Volourn

[Llyranor]

Meh, the industry's already hard-pressed enough to barely even bother branching out in any significant way beyond completely linear stories before even taking into account possible deaths.

[Plano Skywalker]

However, KOTOR does not equal NWN2. NWN2 is a D&D game. Unlike KOTOR, D&d is about the combination of story, characters, CHOICE, and challenging combat.

 

Game over.

 

P.S. Hades wins.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

well, KOTOR 2 used the same storytelling methodology as PST. That is one reason why characters could not die (well, they would have had to work harder at it, anyway).

 

if the story is being told from mostly external sources, then the KOTOR way is not as important....I'm just hopeful for more K2/PST type storytelling (with the right adjustments).

[Volourn]

"Meh, the industry's already hard-pressed enough to barely even bother branching out in any significant way beyond completely linear stories before even taking into account possible deaths"

 

Meh. BIO did it in BG2 with Yoshimo of all characters.

 

P.S. I also think IIRC that Obsidian had planned something where Kreia wasn't neccesaarily going to be the final battle in KOTOR2; but the HOT chick was.

 

 

"used the same storytelling methodology as PST. "

 

IIRC, All the PST npcs could die and they'd stay dead. In fact, like the Bgs eries you didn't have to have any of them in your party. None of them were essential though they did add to the story. Yet, PST managed to have a rather good story if I do say so myself.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Volourn

[Judge Hades]

Well, that is their problem and not ours. If they want to keep shovelling crap at us then only those who like that crap will pay for it. Personally, I am sick of this sort of ****.

[Llyranor]

Win-win.

[Dark_Raven]

I know, if your character dies because they suck or the game cheats by having uber powerful munkin end bosses, no reload, no making new character. You lose, game over, go play another game.

[Judge Hades]

That is why Vampire gathers dust while I play Oblivion.

[213374U]

It's meaningless with reload.

Following that logic, let's go back to the arcade times when you had to start the game all over if you messed up. Only that was just a gimmick to have you pumping more and more coins into the machine. Oh well.

 

Anyway, the function that these lame death rules supply is already provided by the loading function that most games have. Only this effectively prevents people that don't reload in the event of NPC death from playing as they want, and forces them to play in a predefined way for no good reason. This redundancy is only good to hold players' hands as they play. One would think that the trend is to provide more choices instead of less, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case.

A good story can be crafted without resorting to this deus ex machina BS, as it was done with BG2. I hated it in KotOR/K2, and will hate it in NWN2.

 

I hope this is the only mistake they have copy-pasted from K2.

 

 

I won't let it pass.

Is randomly picking on the members part of your duties as moderator?

[Volourn]

"Is randomly picking on the members part of your duties as moderator?"

 

Oh, come on. She's also a poster. She has the right... no, the OBLIGATION, to give her opinion.

 

Just deal, dude.

 

P.S. On the actual topic, we agree.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Volourn

[Darque]

Agreed.

[Dark_Raven]

His point is not found?

[Llyranor]

(nice save, DR)

[Plano Skywalker]

well, K2 was (probably) the first cRPG to use PST-style storytelling AND be in 3d, have full voice acting and FMV sequences.

 

I really do like the idea that my pool of potential party members is greater than my max party slots (BG-style).

 

I can see why they don't want to do that with today's games, but some of that would be nice.

[213374U]

Oh, come on. She's also a poster. She has the right... no, the OBLIGATION, to give her opinion.

 

Just deal, dude.

Whatever. Mods are supposed to have an exemplary behavior, not just post like everyone else, and then bitchslap somebody here and there. I've had my fair share of speeches about fostering community and the spirit of the rules, and that kind of attitude goes precisely against that, even if it respects the letter scrupulously. Maybe that's why Fionavar doesn't actually post on these boards other than to police around.

 

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread or see it locked, so I consider it settled. If you want to go on about it, PM me. I'm not going to cyber you though, so keep that in mind.

Edited May 24, 2006 by 213374U

[Volourn]

No, cybering, no pm.

 

Game over.

 

 

P.S. I hope they cchnage the rules or have some kind of option to have the bleeding/death rules a sper pnp. Then those who want the 'KOTOR way' can have it and we others can have the Way of the D&D Nerd.

[Judge Hades]

That is oneof the things I hated in KotOR 1 and 2 is the fact that you had to have these people on your ship and had to listen to their stupid comments. For one in KotOR 2 we have G0T0. Why the hell did I have to put up with that stupid droid. He basically set himself against my character then all of a sudden he want s to join me? Screw that crap. If I had any sort of choice I would have ditched him in his exploding ship or killed him myself.

 

That goes with Carth as well. The player character should have a choice who he or she has with him and not be forced to have some sort of bugger follow him or her around. That is one of the things I liked about the older games. Most people thought Khalid was a insipent prick that amounted to nothing. Fine, get him killed, take his stuff, and fill that whole with someone more competent.

 

The whole"He's vital to the story" bull**** needs to stop and designers use that as an excuse for lazy design work.

[213374U]

Well, I'm not quite as worried about how they do it rules wise as long as they make NPC death a factor in combat. As it was in K2, not only you couldn't have your party members die, you also had to be either suicidal or completely passive to get both the party members AND the PC die and thus have combat count for something. Not implementing proper death also means making the game significantly easier.

[Plano Skywalker]

The whole"He's vital to the story" bull**** needs to stop and designers use that as an excuse for lazy design work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

right. basically, if you decide not to take someone, then you get the same content in a ship-to-ship transmission, holovid, etc that you would have gotten via dialogue with the party member you did not want.

 

it really shouldn't be that hard to implement.

 

having a pool of potential party members that is greater than your max party size makes for a TREMENDOUS illusionary open-endedness.

[Judge Hades]

"Significantly easier" = Idiot proofing.

 

Its basically a way for the develoers tell us they think we gamers are a bunch of morons.

[213374U]

Well... to be honest, most of the regular, mainstream (as in non-hardcore, so none of you count) gamers I know are morons, at least when it comes to gaming. So I see it kinda justified. But that's not going to stop my bitching and moaning! )

[Llyranor]

Most hardcore gamers are morons too. Everybody wins.

[Judge Hades]

I hardly consider myself a hardcore gamer.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Judge Hades

[213374U]

Most hardcore gamers are morons too. Everybody wins.

You said it! Nobody can blame me this time. "