New NWN2 OC estimate of 30-40 hrs

[alanschu]

And I assume it was way too much work to head over to these, their own, boards and write the same post.

 

Thanks, Obsidian!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

To be fair, it IS the NWN2Board that he's posting it on.

[alanschu]

There is no reasoning with optimists.  They don't live in the real world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...

[DarthMethos]

If Obsidian Entertainment follows through with completing this game, I will be their spokes person without a second thought. I can actually see myself playing this game in moderation, and allowing my experience to extend to 40hrs or more.

 

Unlike KotOR II, I hope they pay very close attention to time management, and take their time to get the game right the first time around.

Edited May 13, 2006 by DarthMethos

[Gromnir]

Yeha, I figured it was a misquote most likely. I'm just making fun of them, and Grom because he takes ALL prviews (as long as they state soemthing negative like OC is 20 hours) as gospel.

 

R00fles!

 

 

Until I hear from Obsidian otherwise, the OC will have 3 joinable npcs in a party out of (at last check) 10 possible ones. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

we takes exactly what we needs.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[alanschu]

Actually Volo, I'm not sure the "minority" tongue-in-cheek comments are as similar to the DMC as we may be thinking.

 

If we take the literal term of minority (less than 50%), I'd suspect every possible combination through the OC is technically a minority.

[Volourn]

"Actually Volo, I'm not sure the "minority" tongue-in-cheek comments are as similar to the DMC as we may be thinking.

 

If we take the literal term of minority (less than 50%), I'd suspect every possible combination through the OC is technically a minority. "

 

yeha; but some things really are a minority.

 

1. It's known that most players don't play games more than once.

 

2. Playes trend to gravitate towards the 'goody' or 'safe' option.

 

3. Gnomes, and halflinsg espicially aren't all that player. In fact, the majority of polls they are usually at 2%-3% (rarely 5%) combined.

 

So, if were saying the DMC is unimportant because only a minority use/take advanatge of it than what does it say about the above. Afterall, according to BIO, MP-toolset-DMC is used by anywhere from 10%-30% of players; that's definitely much higher than gnomes and halflings being used to be sure.

 

That's why the exuse that the DMC being used a minority so it's no big deal it's being cut is bogus (except for personal wants and desires) as I'm sure that any of the above things were cut a certain % of people here would complain yet they'd be in the minority..

 

I may not like the fact the DMC is cut; but Obsidian's reasons are much more reasonable than the silly posters' here. That's for sure.

 

 

The DMC isn't cut because it is used only by a minority; but because they didn't plan for it properly. It's the same reason why the dning and the droid planet were cut in KOTOR2.

 

Gah.

[alanschu]

So, if were saying the DMC is unimportant because only a minority use/take advanatge of it than what does it say about the above. Afterall, according to BIO, MP-toolset-DMC is used by anywhere from 10%-30% of players; that's definitely much higher than gnomes and halflings being used to be sure.

 

That's why the exuse that the DMC being used a minority so it's no big deal it's being cut is bogus (except for personal wants and desires) as I'm sure that any of the above things were cut a certain % of people here would complain yet they'd be in the minority..

 

I may not like the fact the DMC is cut; but Obsidian's reasons are much more reasonable than the silly posters' here. That's for sure.

 

 

The DMC isn't cut because it is used only by a minority; but because they didn't plan for it properly. It's the same reason why the dning and the droid planet were cut in KOTOR2.

 

Gah.

 

Absolutely. It's not like they decided to not ship it even though it is done. But if they felt that the target audience was banking on the DM Client or that it was critical to their sales, then I suspect the game would either be delayed, or something else would be cut.

 

 

Finally, things like Gnomes and whatnot, while unpopular, are a part of the D&D setting. They are probably also easier to add than a DM Client.

[Volourn]

"Finally, things like Gnomes and whatnot, while unpopular, are a part of the D&D setting. They are probably also easier to add than a DM Client."

 

true.

 

But..

 

a) Other D&D games have cut these races amongst other things.

 

b) The DMC is a part of the D&D setting as it works like a DM would which outside of actual players is the most important thing.

 

c) The DMC was already part of the engine.

 

 

This is where I beef is in, and why i say this is more a case of poor planning than vindictiveness or lying like others are accusing Obsidian of.

 

Early in the develoment process, we were told that the DMC would remain the same as in NWN and no changes would be made as they had things that need chnages more (3.5 rules, graphic upgrade/rework, toolset retooling, making the new OC).

 

And, now, 4 months before release, it's 'OMG! We need to work on the DMC but the due date is September so we screwed ourselves!'..

 

THAT'S why this is so annoying...

Edited May 13, 2006 by Volourn

[Llyranor]

The DMC is as much part of DnD as turn-based is.

[Volourn]

Oh snap!

 

 

P.S. NWN is turn based (6 second rule) more or less!

 

 

Oh snap! x2

Edited May 13, 2006 by Volourn

[Llyranor]

So is Dark Alliance, since you can only carry attacks one after the other!!!!

[alanschu]

a) Other D&D games have cut these races amongst other things.

 

Were they set in the Forgotten Realms with custom characters?

 

b) The DMC is a part of the D&D setting as it works like a DM would which oiutisd eof actual players is the most important thing.

 

A DM Client isn't part of the D&D setting (setting was the important word here too....I haven't heard about DMs existing in Eberron or in the Forgotten Realms). In any case, I was meaning the Forgotten Realms setting.

 

It probably has a a fair bit to do with a precedent set by the slew of D&D games that don't have a DM Client. In any case, it's not like the game doesn't have a DM. The DM is just the computer.

 

c) The DMC was already part of the engine.

 

I don't know enough about the DMC, but "part of the engine" might not be exactly the case.

[Volourn]

"Were they set in the Forgotten Realms with custom characters?"

 

POR2. And, it sold well for the first month or so.

 

DDO is Eberron which is an official D&D world that has the races too.

 

 

'It probably has a a fair bit to do with a precedent set by the slew of D&D games that don't have a DM Client. In any case, it's not like the game doesn't have a DM. The DM is just the computer."

 

NWN2 isn't a sequel to those games. And, the DMC is one of those things that makes NWN stand out comapred to other role-playing games. It's an (almost) unique selling point as it's the only franchise that offers it (except the silly Vampire game which went nowhere).

 

Aye. The computer can act like a lesser DM; but it's nowhere near how the DMC works since the DMC is like having an actual DM.

 

But, yeah, about DMs not being in the actual FR setting... Well, lol, you got me there. :D

 

 

"I don't know enough about the DMC, but "part of the engine" might not be exactly the case."

 

Well... being a 'part of the engine' may not be wholly accurate; but the DMCwas/is already there... they're just adding/improving it supposedly.

 

 

"So is Dark Alliance, since you can only carry attacks one after the other!!!!"

 

DA and NWN combat aren't even close to being similiar despite their use of the same rules. DA combat doesn't go by rounds.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

NWN2 isn't a sequel to those games. And, the DMC is one of those things that makes NWN stand out comapred to other role-playing games. It's an (almost) unique selling point as it's the only franchise that offers it (except the silly Vampire game which went nowhere).

 

That's just it?

 

Does it really? Or is it just something that you would like it to be?

 

I have played lots of SP and MP in NWN, but I've never used the DM client, nor have I played a game with a separate DM. This is just my experience, but I haven't seen anything that indicates the DM was a large selling point.

 

I think the fact that Vampire: Redemption had it and didn't go anywhere (as you said) serves as an indicator that a DM Client doesn't rate that high up in the eyes of many (most?) gamers? Redemption was a poor game though, whereas NWN wasn't (while I have my reservations against the OC, I am in your camp that I think people unfairly criticize it).

 

 

Well... being a 'part of the engine' may not be wholly accurate; but the DMCwas/is already there... they're just adding/improving it supposedly.

 

They did rebuild the graphics engine entirely. I suspect that when they started doing that, changes to the core engine were probably required (or occurred for a different reason), that the initial hopes of keeping the DM Client the same disappeared as it was no longer possible to just add it into the code base.

Edited May 13, 2006 by alanschu

[Volourn]

While it's true that the DMC isn't the MOST used or popular aspect of NWN; it surely has its share of supports.

 

Are they a minority? Yes; but I'd say they're a sizeable minority - as evdienced by the rockus caused by the announcement of it's possible cancellation from the intiial release.

 

Some (not me) have gone as far to claim (I'm not sure if I 100% believe them - looks at Hades); but still it shows that the DMC is not some minor thing that can be swept ounder the rug like it doesn't matter at all.

 

When you have played SP and Mp modules, ahve you used uer made ones? if so, at least a good portion of those were likely tested with the DMC. I know that I test my module (lol, hopefully finished before NWN2 even comes out heh) with the DMC (as well as the player client depending on what I';m testing.

 

On top of that NWN Connection, and PWs which have quite a number of users (even now, 4 years after elease those playing on line at any one time is 1k-6k; not too shabby). They both use the DMC extensively.

 

On top of that, BIO's vision of NWN always had the DMC has a prime pimping point. Afterall, it was the major part of their claim that people could play D&D on their computer with an actual DM (as opposed to computer scripts faking it).

 

Also, to note, Obsidian isn't claim that the DMC is unimportant. What happened here, and where my biggest beef, is this a simple case of poor project management. This is illustrated by them not doing much (if any) on it and then now 4 months before release it they say they will...

 

 

 

 

"They did rebuild the graphics engine entirely. I suspect that when they started doing that, changes to the core engine were probably required (or occurred for a different reason), that the initial hopes of keeping the DM Client the same disappeared as it was no longer possible to just add it into the code base."

 

Yeah, and even me being non techie expert, realizes that so why didn't they? Shouldn't they ahve known right form the start that the DMC would need some overhaul (at minimum) and plan for it instead of waiting for the release time to be right on them (4 months to go; but the issue semingly been there for a while now).

 

 

 

P.S. As for the Vampire is useable as proof that the DMC is suelss to sell a product on.. I think it's more of an issue that Vampire was just horribly done as a product alla round (though In never tried it's Storyteller elemen so cna't really judge it).

 

 

remember, NWN2 outsold either Bg game, and is almost neck and neck with KOTOR a multiplatform game with the KOTOR logo on it.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Volourn

[Hassat Hunter]

But, since only the minority of people use it doesn't matter. Just like they should cancel playable female characters

 

Actually female PC's are not in minority. It is a fact alot of gamers play female PC's because they wan't to look at "pretty pixels" in the time that the game takes

 

Unlike KotOR II, I hope they pay very close attention to time management, and take their time to get the game right the first time around. 

 

When did you miss the several posts pointing out this has (unforunately) failed already?

 

They did rebuild the graphics engine entirely. I suspect that when they started doing that, changes to the core engine were probably required (or occurred for a different reason), that the initial hopes of keeping the DM Client the same disappeared as it was no longer possible to just add it into the code base.

 

And they only figured that out so late...

[alanschu]

Yeah, and even me being non techie expert, realizes that so why didn't they? Shouldn't they ahve known right form the start that the DMC would need some overhaul (at minimum) and plan for it instead of waiting for the release time to be right on them (4 months to go; but the issue semingly been there for a while now).

 

I think their initial plan was to not require changes to the DM Client. But trying to modify code in new ways, while supporting legacy (in this case the DM Client) can be a hassle. It's possible that something got changed that made it impossible.

 

I suspect they just announced it now, because given the way things currently are, they are now convinced that the likelihood of it not making release is much more certain. They probably didn't want to announce its removal until they were certain it wouldn't be possible to get it in a state that they were comfortable with releasing it with.

[Volourn]

"Actually female PC's are not in minority. It is a fact alot of gamers play female PC's because they wan't to look at "pretty pixels" in the time that the game takes "

 

Yeah, I though tof that as I was espicially since I'm one of those perverts who enjoy playing with female PCs. :">

 

The point still stands with gnomes and other issues though.

 

Yeah, A;anshu, like I said it, it was likley not forseen. remember, thouh, it hasn't been officially cancelled. They've said it's possible it will be...

 

I hope they make it in.. I don't care if it's perfect... but, I want an official DM Client on the CDs I purchase...

Edited May 13, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

All right, change the interpretation of my post to be "We are now at a state in development that we are no longer certain of whether or not the DM Client will be in."

 

And they only figured that out so late... 

 

I wouldn't be surprised. It's not as uncommon as you think.

[Hassat Hunter]

I think their initial plan was to not require changes to the DM Client.  But trying to modify code in new ways, while supporting legacy (in this case the DM Client) can be a hassle.  It's possible that something got changed that made it impossible.

 

I suspect they just announced it now, because given the way things currently are, they are now convinced that the likelihood of it not making release is much more certain.  They probably didn't want to announce its removal until they were certain it wouldn't be possible to get it in a state that they were comfortable with releasing it with

 

One wonders how this was possible when they finalise the engine before making any content (or even the tools to do so) because otherwise they should do it all over again because of engine inconsistency that was impossible to revert back to IF something went wrong? Shouldn't they have noticed then already error messages and other odd behavior when starting the DM Client? "

Edited May 13, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[alanschu]

One wonders how this was possible when they finalise the engine before making any content (or even the tools to do so) because otherwise they should do it all over again because of engine inconsistency that was impossible to revert back to IF something went wrong? Shouldn't they have noticed then already error messages and other odd behavior when starting the DM Client?

 

This post doesn't even make any sense.

[Gromnir]

One wonders how this was possible when they finalise the engine before making any content (or even the tools to do so) because otherwise they should do it all over again because of engine inconsistency that was impossible to revert back to IF something went wrong? Shouldn't they have noticed then already error messages and other odd behavior when starting the DM Client?

 

This post doesn't even make any sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

neither does the vol "minority" nonsense, but you keep responding to him.

 

but who is Gromnir to say anything, eh? typically takes us 2 or 3 pages of BW before we simply give up trying.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Oh? You disputing BIO's claim that the majority of people only play games once and do so the good way only?

 

You are so quick to accept their other asertions but that one?

 

 

Hahahahaha!!

[Hassat Hunter]

This post doesn't even make any sense.

 

Odd. All the info in it was given by you in the "How short is too short thread" in loads of posts. You no longer remember how you yourself described that the Engine HAD to be finalised before other work could be done?

 

neither does the vol "minority" nonsense, but you keep responding to him.

 

Just replying to the hypocritical "they only make games for the masses"; "DMC is for minority...screw them... we are more important"

 

but who is Gromnir to say anything, eh?  typically takes us 2 or 3 pages of BW before we simply give up trying.

 

Haven't reached that yet it seems...

Edited May 13, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[alanschu]

Odd. All the info in it was given by you in the "How short is too short thread" in loads of posts. You no longer remember how you yourself described that the Engine HAD to be finalised before other work could be done?

 

And you're still not making any sense.

 

One wonders how this was possible when they finalise the engine before making any content (or even the tools to do so) because otherwise they should do it all over again because of engine inconsistency that was impossible to revert back to IF something went wrong? Shouldn't they have noticed then already error messages and other odd behavior when starting the DM Client?

 

What are you saying? What are you talking about with respect to going backwards and reverting? Because it's quite obvious that they did not do that with respect to the DM Client, because the DM Client doesn't work any more.

 

Furthermore, I'm usually pretty careful about using absolute words like "impossible" or "HAD" when discussing things, particularly in computer programming.

 

 

Here's a hint: I knew you were trying to take a jab at my previous points. But you did it in such a way, that I seriously cannot make sense of your post. Which is why I stated "This post doesn't even make any sense."

Edited May 13, 2006 by alanschu