Canon Storylines

Dhampyre · May 5, 2006

Having a cannonical female Exile specifically as a counter point to a male Revan is a good reason. Saying Exile cannot be female because Revan is male is not a good reason.

I didn't say that just because Revan is male the Exile should be male as well but just because Revan is male then Exile should be female sounds as stupid.

They are polar opposties as the story would have as understand. NOT GENDER Opposites.

4 males, 4 females etc etc yatta yatta yatta. Who said this was a balancing act? Why do the number of males and female characters have be equal?? Last i checked this was a game NOT a debate for female rights.

As for people who say the role is tailor made for females, i ask you, HOW?? If anything Revan was probably better suited to be a female character and the fact that they didn't make Revan female is just going to magnify what i am saying.

Like it or not but the Exile character is slightly more manly than Revan, Exile has been like loner all of his life and suddenly gets people following him blindly.

Ok, to counter atris you have sion but what about visas? Surely Visas-Exile is a better romance than Exile-Atton.

Atton makes for a good close friend, what with his past and all but as a love interest to exile its not all that great.

The female exile will be nothing more than eye candy, why? because it doesn't improve the story in any manner and only results in eliminating one interesting character for a boring one and swapping 3 romantic aspects for 2.

The relationship with Bao-Dur IS a close male relationship between two old war veterans. A female in that situation may be able to pull it off but its still not very believable and awkward.

Repeating what i said earlier. Revan had more things going for a female cannonical character. Think about it, The finnesse, Lacking the brashness of Malak....that and all other descriptions of Revan we have had throughout KoTOR and KoTOR II, Revan could have made a better arguement for being female.

The Exile character was designed as a quiet loner, someone with a huge burden on his shoulders and a sad person in general.

That fits better as a male and NOT a female. I am not saying there aren't any females like that but the description and character is manly at its base.

Forcably adding uncreative variance to the game by making a distictly masculine lead character female.

Weigh the facts, we lose out alot of interestings aspects of the game just for making exile female and swapping 3 relationships for 2.

HK-47_THE_MEATBAG_KILLER · May 5, 2006

Amen, Hekate. Amen. Females in star wars are far too often pushed aside as mere support rather than being the main Character. those who insist that the exile should be male are most likely men themselves, and are convinced of their own superiority to females. perhaps even in the case of Revan.

I myself hate playing as a male. i have done it four times on both games (twice as lightside & twice as darkside) and the story never seemed as deep as with the female exile. and when talking to women, some of the dialogue just seemed so immature, as opposed to the female dialogue.

Whootidoo · May 5, 2006

Female exile would be hot but male exile makes a better story.

Xard · May 5, 2006

Hk-47, are ya calling k2's story deeper as female? How so, I really wanna know.

Whootidoo · May 5, 2006

Ya, xard is right. male exile has a better story also dhampyre made it clear that female exile will only swap some stuff for other stuff but adds nothing better and only gets rid of some cool stuff

HK-47_THE_MEATBAG_KILLER · May 5, 2006

Hk-47, are ya calling k2's story deeper as female? How so, I really wanna know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not saying the male story can't be deep, just that it seems so immature (ie. the relationships and "charging up loading ramps", and the comment about the twin suns on nar shadaa). as for the female, both the relationship with atton and disciple have plenty of merit, if you look into them. the female falls in love with a former jedi killer, redeems him, and trains him to be a jedi, convincing him to go back on his loyalty to the sith. And the fact that he is a deserter and yet still remains loyal to the exile has a great impact. As a male exile, one can only become friends with him and atton usually disagrees with any relationship the male exile has. there is no reason why atton would stay with him. as for the romance between the female exile and disciple, this is about a padawan who felt so strongly about the exile that he was willing to abandon his training, his entire life, just for her. because he loved her. he even expresses his dislike of the jedi several times, so he is not entirely goody-goody. he has his human qualities, and loved the exile because she did as well. you can't tell me that is not deep. if so, you obviously haven't looked to far into the female romances.

Dhampyre · May 5, 2006

HK-47:

your point being? Atton-Exile romance is good, i am not disagreeing with you there. I played both KoTORs at least 4 times each, LS MALE, LS FEMALE, DS MALE and DS FEMALE.

However thats still no reason to make a distinctly masculine character female.

The Visas-Exile romance is just as good if not better. Visas being the slave girl of Nihilus, finally manages to break free only to find the exile and bring him to her ex-master.

With the exile she learns that life is not as dark and morose as she has seen it all her life and things like compassion and love still have meaning. She turns away from the dark-side and forgives the atrocities made against her and her people only for love, the exile.

That to me is a deeper and more touching romantic aspect. What about handmaiden, like atton she too questions the exile on every move he makes and eventually betrays atris and her sisters for the exile.

Romantic relationships are good eitherway. The thing that should be noted is that with the female exile we lose out on characters like handmaiden and the relationship with bao-dur and visas become awkward if not out-right silly.

Female exile only serves as eye-candy and provides no real difference in story. Swapping 3 good romantic relationships for 2 is not worth it

Edited May 5, 2006 by Dhampyre

DAWUSS · May 5, 2006

Atton and Sion have a better story if the Exile is female (Atton's is mentioned above, and Sion has an additional excuse to die because he has the hots for her) while Brianna and Atris have a better story if the Exile is male (Brianna because she does something she isn't supposed to because she loves the Exile and Atris because her judgment was made in an attempt to bury her feelings for him)

Dhampyre · May 5, 2006

Dawuss exactly,

The point is that if you go by relationships its pretty even stevens.

The exile character at its base has masculine attributes. Even the female exile is not a very effeminate person, quite the contrary almost a tom-boy.

Exile was designed as man. Of course if you played the game as either male or female they had to write equally good plots and background stories for the characters around the exile.

However as i said, Visas-Exile is the most natural and best suited romance for KoTOR II, which we lose out on with a female exile.

And although some people will disagree with me but Handmaiden is a better character than Disciple.

Wild Storm · May 5, 2006

Dhampyre, if you want Exile male, then you have to have Revan female. It's a double-edged sword. :D

And just so you know, Female Exiles are just as popular, if not more, then Male Exiles. I'm not sure where you get your info that most people prefer Male Exile but it is way off. The same applies to Revan.

Edited May 5, 2006 by Wild Storm

DAWUSS · May 6, 2006

And yet in this poll the arrow beats the cross 17-10 (as of the time this post was made)

Hekate · May 6, 2006

What ? Sucking the life out of people until they are an empty shell

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]I didn't say that just because Revan is male the Exile should be male as well but just because Revan is male then Exile should be female sounds as stupid.

You know, i wonder if it is stupid. KotORs are games with the players able to choose between male and female. That they had to go and make Revan cannonical male vexes me, but alas, nothing is going to change that now. However, Exile's cannonical sex is still up in the air. Now considering how Revan is male, i don't see why making Exile female is a bad thing. It adds variety, a different perspective, eventhough technically, as i said earlier, male and female Exile (and Revan) are the same person. The only difference between them, because in these games romantic relationships have to be hetero, is who they pursue these relationships with. Oh, and female Exile has the option of (or is forced if DS and wants to get at the horde) to wear that ridiculous dancer outfit and put on a show for Vogga. Hardly an accomplishment worthy of acclaim, but thank Obsidian for that little jem. So given they are the same person with mostly the same dialogue options and the same outcomes with the quests, technically, in a vacuum, the sex doesn't matter. Where it starts to matter is once it is looked at as a whole. The fact is, SW is sadly lacking in the female lead department. Exile as a female does not detract from the story as is seen in the game and it also gives the readers a fresh storyline narrative. So i would argue since they made Revan cannonical male ( <_< ) they should make Exile cannonical female.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]They are polar opposties as the story would have as understand. NOT GENDER Opposites.

Yeah, so why should that prevent them from being opposite sexes? Or is the argument here that because one is "the heart of the Force" and the other is "the death of the Force" they should both be male? i can't see how that has particular significance. i don't see how their roles in the story arc being that of opposites would have much of an effect on the decision of which sex either should be. Unless, of course, the whole point of SW being about mythical concepts and characters is to be carried through and one uses that bases of the yin-yang, light-dark, etc, as female and male energies being required to create such opposites...

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]4 males, 4 females etc etc yatta yatta yatta. Who said this was a balancing act? Why do the number of males and female characters have be equal?? Last i checked this was a game NOT a debate for female rights.

Actually, i was using those to emphasize the earlier point made about the games having strong female heroic roles in the form of the NPcs is a weak reason to prevent Exile from being cannonical female. Tied in with the point that some of these strong heroic females have certain issues that affect their overall character strength, what i was getting at is; they are secondary to Exile as is and they are not as strong characters as the male NPCs thus there is no need for a female lead based on that fact alone is erroneous.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]The relationship with Bao-Dur IS a close male relationship between two old war veterans. A female in that situation may be able to pull it off but its still not very believable and awkward.

Hun? i am admitedly a bit stupefied at how such a conclusion can be drawn. The suggestion here is that males and females experience life and humanity in fundamentally different ways. When one is in danger and under the constant strain of being a soldier in a war sharing harrowing and horrific experiences, does one's sex really matter in any significant way? Are you suggesting males and females cannot bond deeply under those circumstances, or that the experience of being a Jedi is somehow unique to males? Or perhaps a female being a part of that bonding is trivial and should thus be discounted? i question the merrit of such thought processes.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Like it or not but the Exile character is slightly more manly than Revan, Exile has been like loner all of his life and suddenly gets people following him blindly.

i was not aware that being a loner, nor that having people follow a particular person blindly are traits found only among males. Nor that those make one more manly than a tactitian. i guess the fact that Exile's Force based abilities have alot to do with people blindly following isn't really that important. Ok, so maybe that was a little snarky, but i'm only human, or so i've been told. i think the real issue here is the perception of what are female roles (refered to as gender), and the discomfort some experience when females become leads in a so-called traditional male gender role. There is absolutely no reason why Bao-Dur and female Exile cannot have bonded as war buddy-like as a male Exile. There isn't any reason why a female Exile could not have been a loner, nor is there any reason why a female Exile could not have people following her blindly. Visas was drawn to the Exile because of Exile being a wound in the Force. Whether Exile was female or male makes no difference. i agree the Visas-Exile romance had alot of depth and the little of it that was in the game was well told. However, that does not exclude a female Exile from being as significant to the story and NPCs as a male Exile. i find Visas being so devoted to Exile without the need for sexual attraction makes a more powerful plot element regardless of Exile's sex.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Repeating what i said earlier. Revan had more things going for a female cannonical character. Think about it, The finnesse, Lacking the brashness of Malak....that and all other descriptions of Revan we have had throughout KoTOR and KoTOR II, Revan could have made a better arguement for being female.

While i concur with the notion Revan has strong reasons to have been made cannonical female, it is for entirely different reasons (one of them being the significance of Revan's effect on Bastila). But Revan is cannonical male so all there is left to work with is Exile. Whether Revan had finesse or was brash comes again down to the idea of gender (the roles imposed on either sex by society) and people's comfort with the whole notion of a female being a general, being a tough Force user and warrior, having a natural leadership ability, and all that. Basing these decisions on reason rather than emtional comfort zones would point towards Exile's sex being important only insofar as how that decision affects the SW universe, the readers, and all that other non-KotOR II based stuff since in the game itself, it doesn't matter.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Atton makes for a good close friend, what with his past and all but as a love interest to exile its not all that great.

That is a valid opinion. So is the opinion that Handmaiden had little of significance to offer as a love interest.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Ok, to counter atris you have sion but what about visas? Surely Visas-Exile is a better romance than Exile-Atton.

The question i brought up earlier was if basing the Exile's male/female worth as a lead should be placed on the romances. Considering so much of the romance outcomes were to come to a resolution on Malachor V and were all cut, it isn't exactly a fair comparisson. However, using that as a parametre for debate, i would argue Visas actually got a chance to voice some romantic feelings whereas Atton never did. The question of which one is the better romance, Atton or Visas... that is a difficult question to answer. Certainly the depth of Visas' pain and the commonality of the emptiness both Exile and Visas shared is profound. It was touching and in a way harmonious. Atton had a different kind of pain from Exile although the feeling of being responsible for having commited devastating acts, attrocities even, was shared as well. Exile had the buffer of being able to shield her/himself of having done what was needed to be done for a bigger good, whereas Atton committed these terrible acts for his own purposes rather than for the greater good. On the one hand Atton has a very raw and very personal pain he carries, and his revealing that pain to Exile is meaningful. His loving her even through that pain is profound. Exile being able to love him eventhough he was, in essence, a monster, is also profound. Atton also was along for the ride since the beginning, whereas Visas joined later. Can one argue that Visas and Exile loving eachother is better than Atton and Exile loving eachother? i guess it would come down to personal preference. i find them equally compelling, to tell the truth, so one would have to then look to the other romances to decide. Score: female Exile 1 - male Exile 1

Bao-Dur, i heard, was supposed to be a romantic interest as well, which, had it been left in the game, would have been quite a powerful one. But it isn't one the player gets to see so we can't really judge it other than by including it as an extra possibility for female Exile for which male Exile has no counterpart since Mira steadfastly refused to become involved with Exile in a romantic way. Score: female Exile 2 - male Exile 1

The only male who came close to in game romancing female Exile is Disciple. Their past built a significant backstory between them, and Disciple's feelings for Exile were genuine and strong. Handmaiden, being Disciple's counterpart, had no history with Exile and served as a plot device to link in Atris and her jealousy of Handmaiden's and Exile's relationship to add weight to Atris' feelings. There was significance with her back story wherein she vowed not to learn the ways of the Jedi but chose to do so anyway, but i would argue she was bound to do so eventually regardless based on what Kreia said and Handmaiden's interest in the Force. Score: female Exile 3 - male Exile 1.

Then came Sion if one argues Sion's words are to be interpreted in that way which one assumes so since he did not react that way with male Exile. His link to Exile, and how he came to love her are a complete mystery to the player. All we can base it on is his actions and words. He wanted to kill her to save her from the suffering she would undergo at Kreia's hands, even after telling her how he feels. Definitely not the formula for making a lasting relationship, but it did carry quite some punch. His confessing how she is a keenly felt presence in his mind was also moving. His death was touching too since he still felt concern for her eventhough he had to let go. Atris, on the other hand, had a long history with Exile. However, IIRC the only difference in how she treated male Exile was indirect. She ordered Handmaiden stow away, and then when she confronted Handmaiden, she beat her senseless for Handmaiden having developed feelings for him. Atris may have confessed in her and his last duel though, i don't remember. So i'll assume she did. Given much more is know of Atris; Score: female Exile 3 - male Exile 2.

Total romantic relationship potential female Exile 4 - male Exile 3. Even discounting Bao-Dur since there is only one line of flirting in their dialogue (that i found anyway), it still makes 3 : 3 and not 2 : 3.

Now i realize this is a rather silly way to compare the two, but if they must be broken down into which one is better in the relationship category, this is how i came up with doing it.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]The female exile will be nothing more than eye candy, why? because it doesn't improve the story in any manner and only results in eliminating one interesting character for a boring one and swapping 3 romantic aspects for 2.

Um, that would be swapping 3 (male Exile) relationships for 4 (female Exile).

Disciple's being more boring than Handmaiden is a matter of opinion, one which i do not concur with. Sure Handmaiden sparring with Exile in that ridiculous thong outfit was more than female Exile got out of Disciple, but that did not make her less boring, it just made her less humble. Disciple had a richer history and a better rounded character, and he at lest was clever enough to be the only one to piece together what no one else could about Kreia and the wound in the Force.

The argument female Exile is nothing more than eye candy is, frankly, driving home the point that male Exile is nothing more than that either since they are the same person.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]The Exile character was designed as a quiet loner, someone with a huge burden on his shoulders and a sad person in general.

That fits better as a male and NOT a female. I am not saying there aren't any females like that but the description and character is manly at its base.

Again, the same arguments as before, males do not hold the monopoly on carrying burdens and having difficult pasts. Yadda, yadda, see above.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Forcably adding uncreative variance to the game by making a distictly masculine lead character female.

i don't understand what you mean by this, though i would like to if you would care to explain.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Weigh the facts, we lose out alot of interestings aspects of the game just for making exile female and swapping 3 relationships for 2.

Which facts are being weighed here? i found the Sion twist more interesting than the Atris twist since with Atris, it really is quite immaterial what sex Exile is. Visas has the same deal, she is just as devoted to a female Exile as a male one. We can't really know for sure the outcomes of the cut content, at least for now. I'd say, it comes down pretty much to taste, rather than fact.

Ya, xard is right. male exile has a better story also dhampyre made it clear that female exile will only swap some stuff for other stuff but adds nothing better and only gets rid of some cool stuff

i would really like to know what this elusive "cool stuff" is. i just can't see it. Both have merrit, and the story is essentially the same regardless of what sex Exile is.

Except what i've already mentioned relationship wise.

ShadowPaladin V1.0 · May 6, 2006

I think one of each gender just works. In each other they find an equal. Where as the Handmaiden, Atton, Carth , Bastila et al. They are more like distractions.

Xard · May 6, 2006

I agree with Dhampyre and DAWUSS. And Handmaiden is much more deeper character than Disciple.

Hey, what is wrong with loading ramp stuff? That was hilarious! :huh:

Jediphile · May 8, 2006

KotORs are games with the players able to choose between male and female. That they had to go and make Revan cannonical male vexes me, but alas, nothing is going to change that now. However, Exile's cannonical sex is still up in the air. Now considering how Revan is male, i don't see why making Exile female is a bad thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Revan being male by canon is no argument for the Exile being female. This is not a case of affirmative action in popular entertainment, nor should it be.

Let me ask you this, if Revan had been canonically female, would you cast your vote for a male Exile simply on a basis of equality between the sexes? And just so you know, I'll doubt your answer if you answer that with a "yes"

The fact is, SW is sadly lacking in the female lead department.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree completely. Leia was far more self-confident than Luke, who constantly doubted his abilities, and Han, who constantly wrestled with his morality, in the original trilogy. Leia was utterly firm in her convictions, however, and only became weak when it came to her feelings for Han, and that was only because she felt it would reflect poorly on her as a leader of the rebellion. SW lacking in strong female leads a fact? I think not...

Exile as a female does not detract from the story as is seen in the game and it also gives the readers a fresh storyline narrative. So i would argue since they made Revan cannonical male ( <_< ) they should make Exile cannonical female.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, that's affirmative action policy, which should have no place in a consistent narrative. I must confess that some of your presumptions irk me the wrong way... A fresh storyline? How? I have played the female Exile, and I found the story to be not nearly as deep as the male story was. You lose the Handmaiden, who has a complex story of betrayal and background, and instead you get, well, the Disciple... :ermm:

I don't hate him as much as some people do, but he is rather boring and only tells you stuff that you can really learn from Kreia as well (though you'll probably doubt her word).

But fine, let's examine some of the changes:

Atton:

Secretly in love with female Exile. However, he can neither admit nor pursue his love, and thus the whole thing remains on the platonic level. The female Exile liking Atton is in for long, lonely nights in the cargo hold... He swears eternal (and blind) loyalty to her, which is just as unflattering in a male as in a female and does not make for much romance IMHO.

For the male Exile, Atton is just another crewmember, and his primary function in the story becomes the burden of his secret and how the Exile reacts to it. I find that without all the emotional entanglements, that works better plotwise, because your reaction is based solely on whether you can find any empathy for him in spite of his crimes with no romantic notions interfering.

Handmaiden:

A complete non-entity in the female Exile story, and she is completely abandoned once you leave Telos. Nothing of her background, her fight to be accepted, or even what became of her when Atris killed the handmaiden sisters. She just hangs around until you Telos, and then she doesn't exist anymore. Yuck!

For the male Exile she has profound impact on the story. Her love for him (such as it is), her betrayal of Atris when she becomes a jedi, and particularly her parentage are all siginificant points that underscore the Exile's own trials. She is complex too, because she sees her lost father in the Exile, so is her love for the Exile really a daughter's love for her father that she is somehow trying to project? And that's not even taking the whole matter of her mother into consideration, which is a big can of worms by itself. Very compelling and important in the overall story with relation to the other significant females, Kreia and Atris.

Atris:

For the female Exile, Atris is said to have admired her. I don't find that to be very compelling, when we know that Vandar and Vrook did not think so highly of the Exile's abilities, and we're not told anything beyond that. That's disappointing to me. Lots of jedi joined Revan and Malak, and Atris probably "respected" more than just the Exile. But we don't get to know this - it's just thrown in there, and we have to accept it as true. Not very good storytelling IMHO.

For the male Exile it's a whole different matter, though, because Atris secretly had feelings for the Exile. And though she had to dismiss him for his actions, she could not reconcile that with her feelings, which then turned to anger and hatred, and probably eroded her to such a degree that she began her long road to the dark side here. It is bitter irony that Atris falls to just the same feelings that she condemns otehrs for having. It does make for good storytelling IMHO, though, and when she sends Brianna to spy on the Exile (there are sound files from a deleted cut scene in the game directories), she begins the very betrayal that she eventually falls victim to herself. I still remember fondly how Kreia says, "Betrayal!", and it echoes all the way back to Atris on Telos, when the Exile turns Brianna into a jedi. For a female exile this chilling moment is lost.

Bao-Dur:

For both male and female Exile, the relationship is the "old war buddy"-thing. Is that more believable with a male Exile? Perhaps... But it shouldn't be in Star Wars, where female jedi generals are probably just as numerous and capable as males. However, with a female Exile, the sex thing also enters the picture and obscures the "war buddy" relationship a bit by suggesting feelings that are just not present in the game. Therefore I prefer the male Exile, where there is no sex thing to obscure the content of the relationship.

Disciple:

Well, he's the only real romance option for the female Exile, which is utterly disappointing, especially given how boring I think he is. His "good manners" do not make for a very interesting character in my book. Sure, he knows a lot and you can learn much from him, but you can learn most of it from Kreia as well (if you believe her), and his relationship with the female Exile is not nearly as interesting as that of Visas or Handmaiden IMHO. I also think it weakens him as a character that he left the order when the Exile joined Revan, and yet did not follow her to war in spite of his feelings for her. So he, what, just decided to sit the whole thing out and see what happens? Some hero... :ermm:

Mical is hardly in the male Exile's game, but I actually thought he had more character here. He's working for Carth (or Cede) exploring the jedi. That means he at least has a mission instead of just hanging around for the Exile to give him something to do. It also makes more sense that he did not follow the male Exile during Mandalorian Wars, I think, because there were no emotional ties, and he simply just lost his belief in the jedi ways and left.

Visas:

She serves somewhat the same function for an Exile of either gender, though there is also emotions for the male Exile. Does she love the male Exile because she loves him or because of the danger he presents to Nihilus? In the female Exile's case, the latter is clearly the case, but for the male Exile there can be doubt. Still, I find that ambiguity to add to the story rather than obscuring it. It makes Visas more complex and Visas is supposed to be very mysterious to the point where you're not quite certain whether she is still loyal to the Exile. It works doubly so for the male Exile IMHO, because you're wondering about her emotions as well as her loyalty. And she and the male Exile gets to "see" each other through the force instead of some dumb speech by Disciple...

Sion:

Sion just hates the male Exile, who replaced him as Kreia's apprentice, but he seems to have feelings for the female Exile. Those are, however, of no significance in the game and only relevant for a few comments, which I frankly find more unsettling than anything else. For the male Exile I flee Sion on Korriban because I can't defeat him, but my female Exile fled because the thought of her and Sion was just scary - he's welcome to sleep with vibroblades, but I don't want to be there with him!!! " :D

I don't actually think that the Exile's gender matters so much for the rest of the characters (albeit Mira has a few comments about the Exile's age, but without being a romance option), except for Kreia disapproving of a relationship between male Exile and Visas. So I'll skip the differences here.

The only male who came close to in game romancing female Exile is Disciple. Their past built a significant backstory between them, and Disciple's feelings for Exile were genuine and strong. Handmaiden, being Disciple's counterpart, had no history with Exile and served as a plot device to link in Atris and her jealousy of Handmaiden's and Exile's relationship to add weight to Atris' feelings. There was significance with her back story wherein she vowed not to learn the ways of the Jedi but chose to do so anyway, but i would argue she was bound to do so eventually regardless based on what Kreia said and Handmaiden's interest in the Force. Score: female Exile 3 - male Exile 1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must confess that I don't understand how you keep score here. You admit that the female Exile and Bao-Dur romance was cut, yet you still award the female Exile points for it, but give none to the male Exile for his relationship with the Handmaiden. Is it just me or does that look more like you stage your points than giving them on the basis of a fair analysis? And as I have said before, the female Exile/Disciple relationship is hurt by the fact that he did not follow her to war, even though he's supposed to love her oh-so-much and follow her to whatever end... :ermm:

For those keeping score: Female Exile:

Xard · May 9, 2006

Great argumentation Jediphile, I have exactly same opinions as you.

Hekate · May 10, 2006

what great fun! i'm glad you stepped up to the plate Jediphile. Now to counter:

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Revan being male by canon is no argument for the Exile being female. This is not a case of affirmative action in popular entertainment, nor should it be.

Let me ask you this, if Revan had been canonically female, would you cast your vote for a male Exile simply on a basis of equality between the sexes? And just so you know, I'll doubt your answer if you answer that with a "yes" :ermm:

Hmm. How nice it is to be able to make such assumptions :thumbsup: , but i'll humour you. If Revan were female i wouldn't care at all what sex Exile is. i felt Exile was a very weak character in the execution in the game, not that in a medium such as a book say, would Exile necesarily be the same way. But that is just me. That having been said though, why should it not be about affirmative action being taken in the LA empire? If the issue can be about pleasing hetero male SW fans since they are the assumed majority fan base, than why can it not be about broadening the scope? i find the argument of trying to somewhat equalize the playing field being unacceptable is quite backwards when the opposite side of the debate focuses on which romance options are best and if a female can be as human as a male. i said before basing which Exile is best on the romances is somewhat lacking as comparisson basis. But that is the only difference between the two since they are the same person. So i used that as a differentiating means.

Now should we get into the debate of it would be good to have more strong female leads in SW? Bring it on! BTW, if SW was the other way around with mostly female lead characters, than i would want there to be more lead males. It isn't so much a question of the numbers being the same, one strong male lead per strong female lead, rather it is more of a question of the work as a whole and how it impacts on its audience and how the setting of SW actually plays out in SW. Meaning, there is supposed to be equality of the sexes. Let's see it then and not continue with the same male dominated streak SW is on.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I disagree completely. Leia was far more self-confident than Luke, who constantly doubted his abilities, and Han, who constantly wrestled with his morality, in the original trilogy. Leia was utterly firm in her convictions, however, and only became weak when it came to her feelings for Han, and that was only because she felt it would reflect poorly on her as a leader of the rebellion. SW lacking in strong female leads a fact? I think not...

She so took a back seat to the males once they were off of the Death Star. In fact, once they got into the garbage shute, the dynamics changed and she was not in the lead at all. And you make an excellent point when you say she was far more self-confident than Luke, yet Luke still managed to jump into an x-wing without ever having any experience in that type of vehicle and be the one who destroyed the Death Star. Even with Luke lacking that self-confidence, which one of the 2 became one of the strongest Jedi ever? Which one confronted their father while the other wanted to flee? Sure, there are females in prominent positions in SW, and theoretically there is supposed to be equality among the sexes. In what i've been exposed to in SW, i haven't seen it. And the notion there are enough strong female leads in SW based on the fact there is Leia is lacking to say the least.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Again, that's affirmative action policy, which should have no place in a consistent narrative.

Um, why not? Should not the whole scope of the work be considered when making these decisions? Are you saying there is consistency in a male character but not in a female one? i guess that would be right if that is being judged on the basis of strong and significant leads in SW are male therefore, to be consistent of course, Exile and Revan should be male. That is consistent indeed. <_<

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I must confess that some of your presumptions irk me the wrong way... A fresh storyline? How? I have played the female Exile, and I found the story to be not nearly as deep as the male story was. You lose the Handmaiden, who has a complex story of betrayal and background, and instead you get, well, the Disciple... :ermm:

i meant a fresh story line in the sense of telling a story with a female lead. i was not comparing male to female Exile since the 2 are the same.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I don't hate him as much as some people do, but he is rather boring and only tells you stuff that you can really learn from Kreia as well (though you'll probably doubt her word).

i have to take exception to that statement. Him finding out about the echoes and all that is as much about his character as the plot. And yes, Kreia and the council do reveal in a convoluted way that there is the echo and all that. True. But Disciple's dialogue with Kreia revealed alot more to the player in a way that it was easier to understand than the cryptic and disjointed bits Kreia and the council explained. When Kreia asked him what does he see and he answers "the death of all life" that put things into context for the player. And using the argument of measuring an NPCs worth by what the NPCs brought to the Exile insofar as plot revelations go, the only ones who did not add to the plot with the bigger picture revalations were Mira, Hanhaar, and Mandalore. So are they then to be considered extraneous?

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]But fine, let's examine some of the changes:

Atton:

Secretly in love with female Exile. However, he can neither admit nor pursue his love, and thus the whole thing remains on the platonic level. The female Exile liking Atton is in for long, lonely nights in the cargo hold... :shifty: He swears eternal (and blind) loyalty to her, which is just as unflattering in a male as in a female and does not make for much romance IMHO.

LOL

Ok. How about this though; in the game it is never actually stated by Exile if s/he feels anything for any of the NPCs. And judging by what i have read of the actual cut content dialogue, it seems all the love based denouements on Malachor V have nothing to do with what Exile feels and everything to do with what the NPCs precieve based on the influence ratings. So the point of Exile not being able to interact with Atton isn't something limited to Atton. Exile can't do that with anybody. Not even with handmaiden since that is sparring and not wrastling :shifty:

Atton falling for female exile is quite romantic actually. He had a similar experience with the Jedi who saved him, but eventhough he loved her, he didn't fall in love with her. So that he fell for Exile is significant. By holding back revealing his emotions he is putting her well being ahead of his own. He knows he has that darkness inside him and he wants to shelter her from it. How is that not romantic? And every incarnation of Exile with every other potential love interest NPC is in for long and lonely nights in the cargo hold :shifty: No one gets any action in that respect. If one inisists on counting Handmaiden strippin' down to a thong for sparring as gettin' some, well then fine. There is no equivalent to that with the guys with female Exile.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]For the male Exile, Atton is just another crewmember, and his primary function in the story becomes the burden of his secret and how the Exile reacts to it. I find that without all the emotional entanglements, that works better plotwise, because your reaction is based solely on whether you can find any empathy for him in spite of his crimes with no romantic notions interfering.

i would argue the primary plot related function of Atton is for the revelation of what Revan did during and after the Mandalorian wars. That then bares great significance at the end when Exile has to decide if s/he can follow Revan with knowing what Revan did, what Revan is capable of doing, and how Revan used Exile to make that power spot on Malachor V and was completely willing to let Exile die in the process. No other romanceable (yes, i made that word up) character brought that much impact to the story line. And here is where we disagree with Atton as a potential romance option; i say with the darkness of his past and the monster lurking within, that female Exile can see worth in him despite that and love him, that is powerful. i cannot concur that attraction between Exile and Atton takes away from that particular plot line. It complicates, adds turmoil, and makes it messy, but messy is good. :shifty:

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Handmaiden:

A complete non-entity in the female Exile story, and she is completely abandoned once you leave Telos. Nothing of her background, her fight to be accepted, or even what became of her when Atris killed the handmaiden sisters. She just hangs around until you Telos, and then she doesn't exist anymore. Yuck!

For the male Exile she has profound impact on the story. Her love for him (such as it is), her betrayal of Atris when she becomes a jedi, and particularly her parentage are all siginificant points that underscore the Exile's own trials. She is complex too, because she sees her lost father in the Exile, so is her love for the Exile really a daughter's love for her father that she is somehow trying to project? And that's not even taking the whole matter of her mother into consideration, which is a big can of worms by itself. Very compelling and important in the overall story with relation to the other significant females, Kreia and Atris.

She is not a non-entity for the female Exile, especially if you count Disciple as more significant if he doesn't join the party :huh: . She reveals almost the same amount of plot relevant information to a female Exile at the sewer academy as she does a male Exile. The important thing Handmaiden brings to the plot is the information about Atris' holocrons and that Atris is affected by Exile. The rest of Handmaiden's story is about her personal history. She does mention Bao-Dur being important to Atris' plans and some other minor things, but that is about it since Atris tells Exile everything else anyway. So is the comparison then who's back story is better, Handmaiden's or Disciple's? Phaw. That is a matter of opinion. And before you get out your pitchfork and chase me to a cliff ledge for saying that, when i compared their histories and significance in earlier posts, i was speaking of how their personal histories had an impact on the Exile through Exile's past and through how they affect the plot. i maintain Handmaiden's personal history, while interesting, does not add to the whole echoes and the death of all things plot. Her significance lies only in how she affects Atris. That is why Handmaiden does not go along with female Exile; Atris didn't order her to. So all of that is completely dependant on Atris' feelings for Exile. That is why i rated the difference between Handmaiden and Disciple the way i did.

i am curious to know where you find Handmaiden to have a profound effect on male Exile. i would argue at best, it goes the other way around. And didn't Kreia say Handmaiden wasn't really betraying her vows to Atris since the vow was not to not become a Jedi rather that she will not follow Jedi teachings? That isn't just a technicality as was seen by it being a main theme of the game. i would also like to know how Handmaiden's parentage underscores Exile's trials. Are you refering to the Jedi code of not allowing romantic attachments being a parallel?

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Atris:

For the female Exile, Atris is said to have admired her. I don't find that to be very compelling, when we know that Vandar and Vrook did not think so highly of the Exile's abilities, and we're not told anything beyond that. That's disappointing to me. Lots of jedi joined Revan and Malak, and Atris probably "respected" more than just the Exile. But we don't get to know this - it's just thrown in there, and we have to accept it as true. Not very good storytelling IMHO.

For the male Exile it's a whole different matter, though, because Atris secretly had feelings for the Exile. And though she had to dismiss him for his actions, she could not reconcile that with her feelings, which then turned to anger and hatred, and probably eroded her to such a degree that she began her long road to the dark side here. It is bitter irony that Atris falls to just the same feelings that she condemns otehrs for having. It does make for good storytelling IMHO, though, and when she sends Brianna to spy on the Exile (there are sound files from a deleted cut scene in the game directories), she begins the very betrayal that she eventually falls victim to herself. I still remember fondly how Kreia says, "Betrayal!", and it echoes all the way back to Atris on Telos, when the Exile turns Brianna into a jedi. For a female exile this chilling moment is lost.

Atris told handmaiden after the first visit to the ice academy that she looked-up to Exile as a hero, and to see Exile 'fall' affected her deeply. What does Vandar and Vrook saying Exile is a mediocre Jedi have to do with how Atris felt about Exile? We have no clue at what point their conversation took place. And you are absolutely right we have no clue what Exile did before going to join the Mandalorian Wars nor how that impacted Atris. It is obvious something happened since Atris admired Exile, but what that is... (and they say Exile doesn't have amnesia :ermm: So chalk it up to Exile having a very bad memory instead). And of course it isn't good story telling, that is why so many threads about that come up.

i concur the romantic aspect of Atris and male Exile does have possibility. However attributing Atris' fall to the romantic aspect is inaccurate. i find it more compelling she falls without the need for there to be sexual attraction involved. A difference of opinion, but the fact is, it has as much significance to Atris regarless of Exile's sex since she falls anyway, even without Handmaiden becoming a Jedi.

As far as the chilling moment of the betrayal is concerned, without Disciple there is no sense of relief and coming home he brought. So which is better and has more impact? The only way to measure that is in the context of how it personally effects Exile. Since they did a fairly bad job of having Exile connect with anything having to do with her/his past, it lessens the in game impact, true. But honestly, the impact of Handmaiden becoming a Jedi wasn't that powerful either. The betrayal echo reaching Atris is about as impactful as it got.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Bao-Dur:

For both male and female Exile, the relationship is the "old war buddy"-thing. Is that more believable with a male Exile? Perhaps... But it shouldn't be in Star Wars, where female jedi generals are probably just as numerous and capable as males. However, with a female Exile, the sex thing also enters the picture and obscures the "war buddy" relationship a bit by suggesting feelings that are just not present in the game. Therefore I prefer the male Exile, where there is no sex thing to obscure the content of the relationship.

Why does attraction obscure the war-buddy thing? But the attraction whether it is one way or goes both ways is more of a side point anyway since Bao-Dur himself states Exile barely noticed him during the time he served under Exile. When the mass shadow generator was activated, that was the longest s/he ever looked at him. So the relevance of the attraction is in how it affected Bao-Dur if he felt for Exile during the wars, and then how things go on as of their being reunited. Keeping a score was just a means to the end of refuting the statements that male Exile had more and better romances that female Exile.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Disciple:

Well, he's the only real romance option for the female Exile, which is utterly disappointing, especially given how boring I think he is. His "good manners" do not make for a very interesting character in my book. Sure, he knows a lot and you can learn much from him, but you can learn most of it from Kreia as well (if you believe her), and his relationship with the female Exile is not nearly as interesting as that of Visas or Handmaiden IMHO. I also think it weakens him as a character that he left the order when the Exile joined Revan, and yet did not follow her to war in spite of his feelings for her. So he, what, just decided to sit the whole thing out and see what happens? Some hero... :ermm:

Mical is hardly in the male Exile's game, but I actually thought he had more character here. He's working for Carth (or Cede) exploring the jedi. That means he at least has a mission instead of just hanging around for the Exile to give him something to do. It also makes more sense that he did not follow the male Exile during Mandalorian Wars, I think, because there were no emotional ties, and he simply just lost his belief in the jedi ways and left.

Yes, it is utterly disappointing he is the only one female Exile gets a love confession from in the as-released game. Whether he is interesting or not isn't really relevant to the discusion though. i found him a bit creepy, to be honest, but that doesn't change his relevance to the story. But i am surprised you made that comment about him not following the Exile as being not heroic. First, he was too young to go off to war. He said so himself. He wasn't even at the cut off age for being accepted as a padawan. Second, what would have made him follow Exile more of a hero? That would have made him a follower (and following a woman at that... :shifty: ). And Mical left not only because of self-doubt, but because there was no one left to teach him. Even when he goes with Exile, he probably is still working for the Republic, just as Handmaiden is still working for Atris. He also is studying and doing research while he is with Exile. He says so himself. IIRC he also has medical training and acts as a med lab. Handmaiden, she practices her martial art. And i think the whole point of Mical was that he had loved female Exile since he was a youth. He did not feel that way about male Exile. So of course he wouldn't be affected by male Exile as he was by Female Exile. Whereas with Handmaiden, she is allured by the whole concept of Jedi and becoming one since it is someting for which she has a natural inclination. She has no history with Exile. She also adds nothing to Exile's background. i cannot see how Handmaiden's love of Exile is deeper nor more significant than Disciple's.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Visas:

She serves somewhat the same function for an Exile of either gender, though there is also emotions for the male Exile. Does she love the male Exile because she loves him or because of the danger he presents to Nihilus? In the female Exile's case, the latter is clearly the case, but for the male Exile there can be doubt. Still, I find that ambiguity to add to the story rather than obscuring it. It makes Visas more complex and Visas is supposed to be very mysterious to the point where you're not quite certain whether she is still loyal to the Exile. It works doubly so for the male Exile IMHO, because you're wondering about her emotions as well as her loyalty. And she and the male Exile gets to "see" each other through the force instead of some dumb speech by Disciple...

Wow. Visas' ambiguity adds to the story, but Atton's takes away from it. :huh: i find that to be quite a stretch. This is another case where i found Visas' interaction with Exile is best left without the sexual attraction. To me, it took away from the significance of Visas choosing Exile over Nihilus. She is dealing with her planet having been destroyed, with being the only survivor, of being treated by the man who destroyed her homeworld as a slave, and all that horrendous and heartbreaking stuff. Adding her loving Exile into it takes away from the significance of her decision between embracing the LS or DS on the Ravager, it minimizes her complex history and pain by making her feelings for him more important and more of a focus than the other issues she is suffering dealing with. That moment between her and Exile when they look at eachother through the Force was, indeed, magnificent. And Disciple's speech truly paled in comparisson. No disagreement on that front here. However, i equate Atton to Visas moreso than Disciple. And in that light it is difficult to compare since all of Atton's love resolutions were cut. There was much more in-game romantic interacting and indicating between Atton and Exile though, so it balances out somewhat. However, keeping the actual in-game dialogues and interactions in mind, Visas is exactly the same with both Exiles until that one point in the game, and then on the Ravager when she can sacrifice herself for Exile. In the dialogue options with female Exile though, it seems Visas should have been able to sacrifice herself for her too, but i don't know if that was removed as an option from the game, or if i didn't have her in the right clothes and with the right weapon. Probably the former.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Sion:

Sion just hates the male Exile, who replaced him as Kreia's apprentice, but he seems to have feelings for the female Exile. Those are, however, of no significance in the game and only relevant for a few comments, which I frankly find more unsettling than anything else. For the male Exile I flee Sion on Korriban because I can't defeat him, but my female Exile fled because the thought of her and Sion was just scary - he's welcome to sleep with vibroblades, but I don't want to be there with him!!! " :D

:lol: That was really funny, and i can see what you're saying. What makes Sion compelling is that there is more to him despite what has been done to him. And even more so because he has that twisted love-hate, need based but should be away from relationship with Kreia. That he can actually feel love for Exile eventhough he hates her importance to Kreia is fascinating. He is very similar to Atton in those ways except his ugliness is apparent on the outside too, and he doesn't have the opportunity to be close to Exile, but Atton does. That makes the cut content of their fight on Malachor V all the more moving beyond Atton sacrificing himself for Exile is Atton is, in essence, facing himself, what he could have been. Sion faces what he could have been in Atton as well. i'd call that pretty deep. Without the cut content though, it certainly does fragment the plot and obscures the importance of the characters' significance.

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I must confess that I don't understand how you keep score here. You admit that the female Exile and Bao-Dur romance was cut, yet you still award the female Exile points for it, but give none to the male Exile for his relationship with the Handmaiden. Is it just me or does that look more like you stage your points than giving them on the basis of a fair analysis? And as I have said before, the female Exile/Disciple relationship is hurt by the fact that he did not follow her to war, even though he's supposed to love her oh-so-much and follow her to whatever end... :ermm:

As i stated before, the scoring system was just to add some tangible basis to proceed in the discussion as opposed to saying "Handmaiden's romance is better" followed by "No, Disciple's romance is better". i just intended to bring cohesion and a simplification of how to compare the two. I even stated it is a silly method. Sheesh. The basis of the previous posts were to debate whether the male or female romances were 'better' thus attempting to decide which Exile has more merrit as becoming cannonical. But the scoring system was to compare the relationship counter parts to eachother. It wasn't a relationship count. And in that light, how it was scored makes sense. i even put 2 different tallies, one excluding Bao-Dur. The potential relationship count was something different. That came a little further down. i even said if you don't count Bao-Dur than the amounts of romance relationships that can be formed are equal. With Bao-Dur counted, female Exile has more. It was cut content so i have no qualms of not including it in the count. Does that explain it a bit better?

[Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]For those keeping score: Female Exile:

Edited May 10, 2006 by Hekate

Xard · May 10, 2006

You can find holorecord of Vrook and Vandar talking about Exile from that old droid from Dantooine.

"And Mical left not only because of self-doubt, but because there was no one left to teach him"

There were plenty of jedi who could've teached him. Not every jedi had padawan or went to mandy wars. Jedi Order is much bigger than it was during PT.

"She has no history with Exile. She also adds nothing to Exile's background. i cannot see how Handmaiden's love of Exile is deeper nor more significant than Disciple's."

So everyone has to have something to do with Exile before k2? Duh.

Brianna is much more complex character. Those "mere sparrings" are actually a lot more than just sparring. She comes from Echani culture, which is interesting and, well, more original than most other cultures of SW. (since most wont different much)

Nah, I just wait Jediphile to appear (since I seem to have exactly same opinions about subject mostly) to make good counterpost because I hate writing long posts in english :thumbsup:

Brianna rules anyway. Besides, Disciple has most annoying voice in k2. (if you don't count that pazaak player from Onderon and aliens)

Whadya mean that female Exile and male Exile are same? They aren't. Different party members already causes that.

"i concur the romantic aspect of Atris and male Exile does have possibility. However attributing Atris' fall to the romantic aspect is inaccurate. i find it more compelling she falls without the need for there to be sexual attraction involved. A difference of opinion, but the fact is, it has as much significance to Atris regarless of Exile's sex since she falls anyway, even without Handmaiden becoming a Jedi."

Supressed feelings always creates more deepness to characters. ^_^

Yeah, sex should be equal, but I think it is lil' bit unreal if it happens like that: "Since all those characters from past games are males, let's now make canonical characters to female until there is same amount of both of 'em. Let's start from k2!"

I think creating more strong female characters should be done differently. With better writing etc, not forcing future game characters to females.

Anyway I don't see it as bad thing that it was Luke that blasted the DS to pieces etc. I mean, there is always Hero. Well, other characters are heroes too, but there is always one who is lil' bit "higher in the list".

When does "sidekick" ("lesser hero" would be better word but sounds stupid) saves the day in movie, book etc? It is always main heroes job.

Oh yeah, Mira saves (as LS) male/female Exile at Nar Shaddaa! :lol: And Leia saves Han (well, it was Luke but he is "Main Hero")

Edited May 10, 2006 by Xard

Jediphile · May 10, 2006

i felt Exile was a very weak character in the execution in the game,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do agree that the Exile was fairly weakly characterized, but given your call for strong female leads, that actually sounds like more of an argument for a male Exile, I think... :rolleyes:

That having been said though, why should it not be about affirmative action being taken in the LA empire?

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Because any narrative plot, whether in movies, books, tv-shows, or even computer games should be founded on good writing and not trying cater to a basis of equality. I have no problem playing a female character, not even if it is forced on me, as long as it is done well and purposefully in the plot. But most gamers seem to be male, and they are apparently either too daft to accept leading female characters, or else the developers think they are (I'm not to pass jugdment on which is more likely), and so we get mostly male character leads in our games because the devs target their demographics specifically. I don't think the Tomb Raider games count in this context (though I have played several of them), because Lara Croft is not a particularly deep characters - her primary advantage, as I see it, seems to lie in her rather large... ahem... ratings! :rolleyes:

So, yes, I'd be hard pressed to point to a game where I played the female lead and liked it. However, this is more because such games are rare (to say the least) and often try to sell themselves on that aspect alone rather than being good plot

She so took a back seat to the males once they were off of the Death Star. In fact, once they got into the garbage shute, the dynamics changed and she was not in the lead at all. And you make an excellent point when you say she was far more self-confident than Luke, yet Luke still managed to jump into an x-wing without ever having any experience in that type of vehicle and be the one who destroyed the Death Star. Even with Luke lacking that self-confidence, which one of the 2 became one of the strongest Jedi ever? Which one confronted their father while the other wanted to flee?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not a fair basis of comparison, because at that point Luke had trained for years for that confrontation alone, and even then he admits to Obi-Wan that he cannot face Vader. Leia just had it dropped in her lap in two seconds and had to deal with it all at the same time, "yes, I'm your brother, oh, and Vader's our father - so what do you think?" Is a strong reaction unjustified in this case? I think not. Besides, Luke himself did indeed flee when he learned the truth, so how can you blame Leia for it? And you're misinterpreting Leia's motives too, I think. She wasn't trying to flee because she feared Vader, she was trying to make Luke flee, because she was afraid of what would happen to him if he faced Vader. Her concerns were never for herself.

Leia: "No, Luke. Run away. Run far away. If he can feel his presence, then leave this place! I wish I could go with you...".

Luke: "No, you don't. You've always been strong."

No, Leia is clearly stronger in her convictions than Luke, and Luke knows it too. Sure, at this point Luke has become fairly strong and self-confident, but it took this long for him to get anywhere close to the point where Leia already was. She never doubts her skills or duties, and she never thinks of her own safety as she pursues them.

As for Luke becoming the most powerful jedi, well he *did* have a few years "head start" on Leia. Leia is no weakling, though. If you count the "Dark Empire" comic books, she has to face not only the reborn Emperor, but also Luke who has fallen to the dark side, and she is not only victorious, standing up to Luke in lightsaber-battle along the way, but also manages to redeem him. Nope, definitely not weak.

Sure, there are females in prominent positions in SW, and theoretically there is supposed to be equality among the sexes. In what i've been exposed to in SW, i haven't seen it. And the notion there are enough strong female leads in SW based on the fact there is Leia is lacking to say the least.

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Padme is a pretty strong character. She doesn't have force powers, of course, but she don't need to in order to be a strong character. I could mention Mara Jade or Nomi Sunrider, but then people always get miffed when we bring up characters from the books or comics or other bits of the EU. Funny, really, given that KotOR is EU...

Um, why not? Should not the whole scope of the work be considered when making these decisions? Are you saying there is consistency in a male character but not in a female one?

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Of course not, but then I think I've already answered that question above...

i meant a fresh story line in the sense of telling a story with a female lead.

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No problem for me. Just write appropriately strong plot for it. K2 is simply stronger plot with the LSM Exile IMHO.

i have to take exception to that statement. Him finding out about the echoes and all that is as much about his character as the plot. And yes, Kreia and the council do reveal in a convoluted way that there is the echo and all that. True. But Disciple's dialogue with Kreia revealed alot more to the player in a way that it was easier to understand than the cryptic and disjointed bits Kreia and the council explained. When Kreia asked him what does he see and he answers "the death of all life" that put things into context for the player. And using the argument of measuring an NPCs worth by what the NPCs brought to the Exile insofar as plot revelations go, the only ones who did not add to the plot with the bigger picture revalations were Mira, Hanhaar, and Mandalore. So are they then to be considered extraneous?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The conversations with Disciple never had that impact on me. Mostly they were just boring rehash of what I'd already heard from Kreia or one of the masters. I learned far more of the Exile's powers and bond from talking to Zez-Kai Ell than I did from listening to Disciple. And I hate when I'm given information that I'm allowed to know as a player, but which my character is not allowed to know or act on. It's not quite as terrible here as in a real tabletop RPG, but it's still pretty frustrating...

As for the other characters being "extraneous":

Mira is the "kid sister" in K2. She serves a bit of the same function that Mission did in K1, but she's also the hard kid who has to have her eyes opened to a different world than the harsh one she lived in, so that she can evolve to something better. That's what the whole "jedify Mira" scene is about IMHO.

Mandalore is there to serve as a connection back to Revan. I would agree, though, that he does not need to be a party member to serve that function, and he's pretty boring as a companion, if you ask me. I never used him much...

Hanharr I do consider a rather failed character. I hear he was originally intended to also become a jedi (or rather sith), but then LA told the devs that they weren't allowed to do that. Hanharr is nasty and has little interest. Once he's "broken upon my will" and gives me the bonus you can unlock as a DS'er, I never use him again. Most DS-players seem to prefer "falling" to the LS a little in Nar Shaddaa just so they can get Mira in the group and then corrupt her completely. But then that might just be because she can be jedified, and they want that for the "uber-army of sith that completely pwn everyone else ever!!!!" or whatever testosterone drivel they tell themselves It would be interesting to see if they still took Mira even if they could turn Hanharr into a sith...

Atton falling for female exile is quite romantic actually. He had a similar experience with the Jedi who saved him, but eventhough he loved her, he didn't fall in love with her. So that he fell for Exile is significant. By holding back revealing his emotions he is putting her well being ahead of his own. He knows he has that darkness inside him and he wants to shelter her from it. How is that not romantic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because I wouldn't know if the female Exile loved him or just pitied him, or even if Atton loves her simply because he knows he can never have her. Either way, is it really love? For the Exile it could just be pity, and for Atton it could just be fantasy.

And every incarnation of Exile with every other potential love interest NPC is in for long and lonely nights in the cargo hold No one gets any action in that respect. If one inisists on counting Handmaiden strippin' down to a thong for sparring as gettin' some, well then fine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Atton seems to think so...

Atton: "Oh, yeah, one other thing - don't think I haven't noticed the way you've been sparring with our ex-Jedi friend. This isn't some pleasure yacht, so if I did know all the Echani movements, I might know more than just the first tier, including the etiquette rituals. So keep your hands where I can see them." :wub:

i would argue the primary plot related function of Atton is for the revelation of what Revan did during and after the Mandalorian wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, but there is still no romance in that.

[continued...]

Edited May 10, 2006 by Jediphile

Jediphile · May 10, 2006

[continued from last post]

That then bares great significance at the end when Exile has to decide if s/he can follow Revan with knowing what Revan did, what Revan is capable of doing, and how Revan used Exile to make that power spot on Malachor V and was completely willing to let Exile die in the process. No other romanceable (yes, i made that word up) character brought that much impact to the story line. And here is where we disagree with Atton as a potential romance option; i say with the darkness of his past and the monster lurking within, that female Exile can see worth in him despite that and love him, that is powerful. i cannot concur that attraction between Exile and Atton takes away from that particular plot line. It complicates, adds turmoil, and makes it messy, but messy is good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem is that I don't believe that the female Exile loves Atton. Neither does Atton, for that matter... :ermm:

And I don't agree that he has more impact than anyone else. Sure, his secret is significant to Revan's corrupting influence, but you could say the same about Bao-Dur's doomsday-machine or Visas' ties to Nihilus - they're all important to the plot. In fact, among the three mentioned here, Atton's is probably the least important, since Revan is not in the game, whereas you must confront both Nihilus and Malachor V itself... Nah, I'm just messing with you - Atton is as significant, but not more so, I think.

She is not a non-entity for the female Exile, especially if you count Disciple as more significant if he doesn't join the party . She reveals almost the same amount of plot relevant information to a female Exile at the sewer academy as she does a male Exile. The important thing Handmaiden brings to the plot is the information about Atris' holocrons and that Atris is affected by Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She's reduced to an info-dispenser. All she's good for is getting information from, just like 3727 other forgettable NPCs inhabiting the game. As for Atris being affected by the Exile, how do you figure that - the Exile isn't even important enough to send her lowest servant after her. Scarcely an indication of importance...

The rest of Handmaiden's story is about her personal history. She does mention Bao-Dur being important to Atris' plans and some other minor things, but that is about it since Atris tells Exile everything else anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Handmaiden: "Because when my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed. When I look upon you, I see in you an answer to a question I have searched for all my life. And that is why I tell you this now. I do not believe you to be the monster Atris made you out to be. I believe your choice was my father's choice, and it was just as difficult. I do not claim to understand you. There are times when your actions are a mystery to me - but I do not wish my actions to be a mystery to you.Malachor V is the place where I lost my mother and my father. But it was their choice to fight the Mandalorians - and to die there, if Malachor was to be their grave."

Handmaiden: "My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path. If I were to follow a Jedi against Atris' wishes, then I would be betraying her. For you. This is a difficult thing for me to say, but I ask that you be silent as I tell you this.It is my desire to learn from you what you can teach me of battle. I have already learned much in our duels, but with every battle, I wish to know more of you.Your stance, your movements, I can sense shades of meaning, and an echo of something I have yet to experience.Atris said that you were the only Jedi to have survived the Mandalorian Wars. That you had stared into the heart of war, and only turned away because you were forced to.I do not believe her. I believe that you made a choice... as my father did. And that is important to me, more than you know.And you are important to me, more than you know. I will accept whatever you wish to teach me, though it breaks my oath to Atris.

Not quite the same thing, I think, and not just her personal story either... :shifty:

Atris told handmaiden after the first visit to the ice academy that she looked-up to Exile as a hero, and to see Exile 'fall' affected her deeply. What does Vandar and Vrook saying Exile is a mediocre Jedi have to do with how Atris felt about Exile?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it begs the question of what she admired. For the male Exile, she was in love with him. Fine, I get that. But what about the female Exile?

We have no clue at what point their conversation took place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was clearly before the Exile left for the Mandalorian Wars, which puts it at least twelve years before K2. It could be a few years earlier, but I doubt it is more, or it would be too far back in time to be credible given the Exile's apparent age IMHO.

i concur the romantic aspect of Atris and male Exile does have possibility. However attributing Atris' fall to the romantic aspect is inaccurate. i find it more compelling she falls without the need for there to be sexual attraction involved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, we disagree there. We saw Anakin fall because he loved Padme and couldn't bear to lose her. That Atris (cold ice-queen that she is...) should have a similar fate appeals to me :shifty:

As far as the chilling moment of the betrayal is concerned, without Disciple there is no sense of relief and coming home he brought. So which is better and has more impact? The only way to measure that is in the context of how it personally effects Exile. Since they did a fairly bad job of having Exile connect with anything having to do with her/his past, it lessens the in game impact, true. But honestly, the impact of Handmaiden becoming a Jedi wasn't that powerful either. The betrayal echo reaching Atris is about as impactful as it got.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pretty strong impact in my book.

Why does attraction obscure the war-buddy thing? But the attraction whether it is one way or goes both ways is more of a side point anyway since Bao-Dur himself states Exile barely noticed him during the time he served under Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, but the second the Exile can hear Bao-Dur's thoughts but Kreia can't, you'll begin wondering if there is a deeper connection, if the Exile is female. I think that obscures how the connection really comes from Bao-Dur being involved directly in the one defining moment of the Exile's life that altered him/her completely. Sure, other NPCs may highlight specific aspects, but Bao-Dur's presence is a reminder of the very focal point of where all the Exile's trials led both to and from.

Whether he is interesting or not isn't really relevant to the discusion though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is to me.

[continued...]

Edited May 10, 2006 by Jediphile

Jediphile · May 10, 2006

[continued from last post]

And Mical left not only because of self-doubt, but because there was no one left to teach him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As Xard has already pointed out, there were plenty of other jedi around - the order did not suddenly crumble because there were no jedi left to teach others. Revan and Malak were fairly young jedi, and so were most of those who followed them to war, which doesn't suggest they were teachers. Sure, some undoubtedly were, but more likely the majority were students who left their masters. You need look no further than Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar to see masters who lost or missed students. So it seems unlikely nobody was there to teach Mical.

Even when he goes with Exile, he probably is still working for the Republic, just as Handmaiden is still working for Atris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No basis for that assumption (beyond presumptions based on the male Exile's story) and no impact on the story whatsoever.

He also is studying and doing research while he is with Exile. He says so himself. IIRC he also has medical training and acts as a med lab. Handmaiden, she practices her martial art. And i think the whole point of Mical was that he had loved female Exile since he was a youth. He did not feel that way about male Exile. So of course he wouldn't be affected by male Exile as he was by Female Exile. Whereas with Handmaiden, she is allured by the whole concept of Jedi and becoming one since it is someting for which she has a natural inclination. She has no history with Exile. She also adds nothing to Exile's background. i cannot see how Handmaiden's love of Exile is deeper nor more significant than Disciple's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're completely overlooking the Handmaiden's father, who she in no small way sees in the Exile, as evidenced by the quotes above. That's where her story with the Exile comes from, along with his significance on Malachor V, where her mother died.

And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions.

Wow. Visas' ambiguity adds to the story, but Atton's takes away from it. i find that to be quite a stretch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might equally well ask you why it is fine for obscurity in Atton's case, but not for Visas.

Besides, I do see an important distinction in those characters themselves. Atton is a fairly simple guy - the uncomplicated soundrel. "The fool" as Kreia would say. He hides a bit secret, but once you get that, Atton is pretty simple to figure out. Kreia also controls him pretty easily as a consequence by simply playing on his fears. He does not have the depth to see beyond that himself and tell her what to go do with herself.

Visas, on the other hand, is complex by her very nature. The veil covers more than just her eyes. It is an indication of all the things that lie hidden within her. And she's difficult to figure out. She is often said to be totally submissive to the Exile (particularly the male Exile), yet she has no trouble refusing to wear the thong or admonish the Exile for taking risks or generally refuse that he/she confront Nihilus. You expect complexity, mystery, even potential betrayal in her. Another layer doesn't matter, because she is already pretty ambigious to begin with, unlike Atton.

That moment between her and Exile when they look at eachother through the Force was, indeed, magnificent. And Disciple's speech truly paled in comparisson. No disagreement on that front here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good - you're learning... :shifty:

What makes Sion compelling is that there is more to him despite what has been done to him. And even more so because he has that twisted love-hate, need based but should be away from relationship with Kreia. That he can actually feel love for Exile eventhough he hates her importance to Kreia is fascinating. He is very similar to Atton in those ways except his ugliness is apparent on the outside too, and he doesn't have the opportunity to be close to Exile, but Atton does. That makes the cut content of their fight on Malachor V all the more moving beyond Atton sacrificing himself for Exile is Atton is, in essence, facing himself, what he could have been. Sion faces what he could have been in Atton as well. i'd call that pretty deep. Without the cut content though, it certainly does fragment the plot and obscures the importance of the characters' significance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd probably agree with you if it were not for the fact that I just don't buy Sion's alleged love for the female Exile. There is no basis for it. It's just thrown in there as a gimmick in the 11th hour IMHO, and you have to accept it as such, which I don't. And therefore I think it hurts the female Exile's story in K2.

The basis of the previous posts were to debate whether the male or female romances were 'better' thus attempting to decide which Exile has more merrit as becoming cannonical. But the scoring system was to compare the relationship counter parts to eachother. It wasn't a relationship count. And in that light, how it was scored makes sense. i even put 2 different tallies, one excluding Bao-Dur. The potential relationship count was something different. That came a little further down. i even said if you don't count Bao-Dur than the amounts of romance relationships that can be formed are equal. With Bao-Dur counted, female Exile has more. It was cut content so i have no qualms of not including it in the count. Does that explain it a bit better?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, Bao-Dur just isn't a romance option (and shouldn't be IMHO - it ruins the warbuddy perspective, which is the significant part), so I don't see how it can be counted. Otherwise the number of relationships are the same for male/female, at least on the surface. As I've said, I'm not buying the Atton-female Exile relationship, and even if I did, I would definitely see that as weaker than those of the male Exile.

i also question whether her becoming a Jedi was really a betrayal. If she is as young as all that (which is up for debate. i thought she was in her 20s), than couldn't that 'betrayal' have been directed at Atris for forcing such a harsh future onto Handmaiden in the first place? That is how i saw it anyway. Atris was quite naughty that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Be that as it may, both Atris and Brianna herself both did see it as betrayal against Atris.

Either way though, Mical has more impact on the story line and on Exile because of the information he reveals to the player and the connection they have through their pasts. Brianna serves as plot tie-in to Atris which female Exile gets even without Handmaiden.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, Brianna has direct ties back to Malachor V through her parents, and that is tied directly to the Exile. Mical doesn't. He may have known the female Exile, but apparently didn't care enough to follow her. And Brianna is more than just a subplot, due to the similarities she sees between her father and the male Exile. She never names her mother herself, but interestingly Kreia does, and to the male Exile. Brianna presence makes Kreia tell you more about Arren Kae than Mical ever does.

Sure, eventually the echoes plot gets revealed through Kreia and the council. But Mical is also the means Kreia's mind controling ability gets depicted as it does nowhere else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. Kreia admits herself that she can do this. And though she claims not to control the Exile, she also admit that he/she wouldn't be able to tell the difference, if she did, so I don't think that is entirely correct.

[the end - honestly! :shifty: ]

Hekate · May 10, 2006

There were plenty of jedi who could've teached him. Not every jedi had padawan or went to mandy wars. Jedi Order is much bigger than it was during PT.

No, there weren't. And since people seem so fond of quoting the game directly, i replayed the Mical conversing with Exile bit from an old save and thus i quote unto you: Disciple: "And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it. They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance." He was too young to have gone to war since he wasn't even at the cut off age for becoming a padawan yet, and when he came of age, no one was left to teach him.

So everyone has to have something to do with Exile before k2? Duh.

No, that isn't what i was saying at all. In comparing Brianna's tie to Exile and Mical's tie to Exile, past history is important. If it weren't, than Atris' significance can also get dismissed. If there are going to be arguments made that past history counts, than it has to count across the board. It can't just count for whomever it is convenient to have it count for to make a point.

Brianna is much more complex character. Those "mere sparrings" are actually a lot more than just sparring. She comes from Echani culture, which is interesting and, well, more original than most other cultures of SW. (since most wont different much)

First, Exile (and most players i assume, me being one of them) has no clue what the significance in the Echani cultre is of sparring in the near buff. Brianna repeatedly tells Exile it is just sparring unencumbered and such. So to say that because Atton, in a cut scene that Exile isn't even aware of happening, tells Brianna he knows what she is up to does not make their sparring in their underclothes significant to Exile. He initially at least thinks it is weird but he goes along with it because he isn't given a choice. If he has even half a brain he would be able to figure out that her in that outfit versus a workout outfit is her dropping a rather obvious hint, but he will not know the significance of what that means in Echani culture.

Second, Brianna being attracted to Exile and having the guts to spar with him in her unmentionables does not make her a more complex character than Mical. She has courage and self-confidence when it comes to her body, certainly. But that is rather simple to understand, isn't it? i never said Brianna is useless, nor any other insulting thing about her, nor do i intend to. Mical and Brianna both have issues, and they both have a moral dilema they have to face about becoming a Jedi. Brianna has her parentage to deal with and Atris. Mical has his duty to the Republic, his connection to the Jedi and his ultimately being rejected for padawan training, his personal mission of perserving Jedi knowledge, his personal connection to Exile, and such. Brianna herself said when she spoke of wanting to become a Jedi that she feels it is for the greater good for her to do so and she would anyway regardless of how it affects Atris. Mical has a similar decission to make with regards to if he can become a Jedi since he sees major flaws in their teachings and he was denied his opportunity to earlier on and he has moved onto other things. Brianna has followed Atris for a long time and accepted her position there. Mical did soul seraching to see what it is he wanted and to figure himself out. Which one is more complex? i say Mical. You say Brianna.

Whadya mean that female Exile and male Exile are same? They aren't. Different party members already causes that.

What i mean is other than the romantic stuff and the dancing for Voga if Exile is DS female, all the quests, side quest, how they turn out, and the dialogue options are the same. Exile is Exile regardless of her/his sex. The only place wherein which Exile incarnation matters is with Exile's alignment LS/DS. That is when the quest outcomes, the end game, all that is different ie: Talia or Vaklu isn't affected by Exile's sex.

Supressed feelings always creates more deepness to characters. ^_^

Using that argument then Mical is more deep than Brianna because he is surpressing his feelings for Exile whereas Brianna does not to the same extent as shown with her sparring in a thong.

Yeah, sex should be equal, but I think it is lil' bit unreal if it happens like that: "Since all those characters from past games are males, let's now make canonical characters to female until there is same amount of both of 'em. Let's start from k2!"

I think creating more strong female characters should be done differently. With better writing etc, not forcing future game characters to females.

Yes, of course it should be done with better writing and exposure. So what is the problem with a cannonical female Exile? No one is saying there has to be an equal number of strong male and female leads in the SW universe. All i'm saying is there should be more strong female leads. Revan was made cannonical male (grr... <_< ), so hey! they should make Exile cannonical female. What is the big problem? The character is already there, the story has already been told through the game, all that needs to be done is have Darth George put his seal of approval on it and there you go. What we're debating here is, based on the romantic relationships Exile has, if Exile is better served as a male or a female. You yourself, Xard, said earlier to make something cannonical is for continuity's sake. Both male and female Exile are equally valid to maintain that continuity. The reason i maintain Exile should be cannonically female is because of SW's general lack of strong female leads. To support that point though it seems she has to be defended by proving her storyline is just as deep and significant as male Exile's. So that is what i am doing.

Oh yeah, Mira saves (as LS) male/female Exile at Nar Shaddaa! And Leia saves Han (well, it was Luke but he is "Main Hero")

Very true. i didn't know about Leia saving Luke until i read it here. And it is good that non-lead female characters are doing heroic deeds. But the point is, they aren't the leads.

Hekate · May 11, 2006

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]I do agree that the Exile was fairly weakly characterized, but given your call for strong female leads, that actually sounds like more of an argument for a male Exile, I think... :lol:

LOL Yeah, i thought of that too, but i would assume in any other type of work derived from KotOR II Exile would be improved upon in that regard.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Because any narrative plot, whether in movies, books, tv-shows, or even computer games should be founded on good writing and not trying cater to a basis of equality.

Given that, how is female Exile found to be lacking any more than male Exile?

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]So, yes, I'd be hard pressed to point to a game where I played the female lead and liked it. However, this is more because such games are rare (to say the least) and often try to sell themselves on that aspect alone rather than being good plot

Which is clearly not the case with KotOR II. So again, for the umpteenth time, why the difficulty with cannon female Exile?

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]That's not a fair basis of comparison, because at that point Luke had trained for years for that confrontation alone, and even then he admits to Obi-Wan that he cannot face Vader.

Yet he does... and wins.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Leia just had it dropped in her lap in two seconds and had to deal with it all at the same time, "yes, I'm your brother, oh, and Vader's our father - so what do you think?" Is a strong reaction unjustified in this case? I think not. Besides, Luke himself did indeed flee when he learned the truth, so how can you blame Leia for it? And you're misinterpreting Leia's motives too, I think. She wasn't trying to flee because she feared Vader, she was trying to make Luke flee, because she was afraid of what would happen to him if he faced Vader. Her concerns were never for herself.

You're right that Leia in RotJ told Luke to flee without thinking she should. That was my mistake.

Luke fled because he was getting his arse kicked and he just had his hand cut off. Not unexpected considering Luke was inexperienced and ditched his training with Yoda to go confront Vader. Yet going to meet Vader, he was fully self-confident facing him. He even became c0cky. Where Leia is concerned, you're absolutely right she didn't have much time to deal with it, nor did she understand the whole Jedi Code and that Luke has to be the one to face Vader. And that is because Luke is the lead character and Leia is not. As far as the Dark Empire comics go, haven't read 'em so i wouldn't know. However in the novels preceeding episode VI, i thought Leia refused all forms of Force training since it would impede her duties as a senator since the others would be suspicious she would use the Force to influence them. Don't know for sure though 'cause i heard that second hand.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]No, Leia is clearly stronger in her convictions than Luke, and Luke knows it too. Sure, at this point Luke has become fairly strong and self-confident, but it took this long for him to get anywhere close to the point where Leia already was. She never doubts her skills or duties, and she never thinks of her own safety as she pursues them.

i wouldn't know how to argue that one way or the other. What i do know is that Leia got caught by Jabba trying to rescue Han, and she is humiliated by being made into Jabba's plaything. To add insult to injury, she has to wear that lovely thong with a modesty cover patch of which Bianna's outfit is reminiscent. She is in chains and forced to endure Jabba fondling her. She does get to strangle him though, but only at the opportunity Luke presents. Luke waltzes in using Force powers, beats a Rancor, saves the day, and again saves Leia with a conveniently placed swinging line. Which one seems more heroic and self-confident to you? Leia may very well be strong in her convictions, however it cannot be said that Luke isn't. He was very certain of himself about almost everything when it came down to it. It doesn't mean his convictions were right (ie assuming Yoda had to be a tough guy), it just means he felt strongly about them. He did decide to go rescue Leia while in the midst of an entire Death Star full of the empire's soldiers. That takes conviction and confidence. He displays those traits in all the movies. The only time he lost his self-confidence was with lifting his x-wing out of the swamp.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Padme is a pretty strong character. She doesn't have force powers, of course, but she don't need to in order to be a strong character. I could mention Mara Jade or Nomi Sunrider, but then people always get miffed when we bring up characters from the books or comics or other bits of the EU. Funny, really, given that KotOR is EU...

Padme was a strong character in The Phantom Menace. She became less and less strong as the other 2 progressed. By the end of the 3rd, she died from a lack of will to live because of what Anakin had become. How much more weak can a character get then to die from giving up? Don't know enough about Mara Jade nor Nomi Sunrider to make a call either way. But the point is, a disproportionate amount of strong female characters become weak as the story progresses, and overall there are too few strong female leads. Naming Nomi, Mara, Leia, emphasizes this when put in the context of how many males would be on the strong lead list.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]No problem for me. Just write appropriately strong plot for it.

(w00t) So technically you are agreeing with me. i am glad 'cause i was really startin' to worry.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]K2 is simply stronger plot with the LSM Exile IMHO.

And with that we lose the progress we had made.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]The conversations with Disciple never had that impact on me. Mostly they were just boring rehash of what I'd already heard from Kreia or one of the masters. I learned far more of the Exile's powers and bond from talking to Zez-Kai Ell than I did from listening to Disciple.

i am fairly certain Zez-Kai Ell never spoke of Exile being a wound in the Force. i am also fairly certain he did not imply there is a connection to all of this through Malachor V. Those revelations were left for the big "ta-da" when the Jedi Council tells Exile all that stuff. The only way to find out what the others are yappin' about is when Kreia finally stops playing with Disciple and she gets him to tell her what he has figured out. Then they discuss the echoes, how the planets involved are significant and not random, and how it has the potential to kill all life if the wound isn't healed. Mical also informs Exile he has figured out that Revan was not out to destroy the Republic, but rather to protect it.That made things clear in a way it isn't anywhere else in the game. As has been seen in other threads, the Jedi Masters and Kreia contradict themselves in their explanations of the Force wound, the Exile, and all that. The only point where there was clarity and no contradictions was with Mical. Whether it was boring or not is irrelevant. It made sense.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]As for the other characters being "extraneous":

Um, my asking if the other people should be considered to be extraneous was to emphasize the point of; whether questioning the worth of the NPCs based solely on what they brought to Exile with plot revelations is good. In other words, they were not extraneous and the NPCs should not be disregarded because of it. i guess my wording isn't very clear for it to cause such confusion.

Atton falling for female exile is quite romantic actually. He had a similar experience with the Jedi who saved him, but eventhough he loved her, he didn't fall in love with her. So that he fell for Exile is significant. By holding back revealing his emotions he is putting her well being ahead of his own. He knows he has that darkness inside him and he wants to shelter her from it. How is that not romantic?

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Because I wouldn't know if the female Exile loved him or just pitied him, or even if Atton loves her simply because he knows he can never have her. Either way, is it really love? For the Exile it could just be pity, and for Atton it could just be fantasy.

Yet in an earlier statement you say not knowing if Visas loves Exile for him or because he can defeat Nihilus makes it better:

She serves somewhat the same function for an Exile of either gender, though there is also emotions for the male Exile. Does she love the male Exile because she loves him or because of the danger he presents to Nihilus? In the female Exile's case, the latter is clearly the case, but for the male Exile there can be doubt. Still, I find that ambiguity to add to the story rather than obscuring it. It makes Visas more complex and Visas is supposed to be very mysterious to the point where you're not quite certain whether she is still loyal to the Exile. It works doubly so for the male Exile IMHO, because you're wondering about her emotions as well as her loyalty. And she and the male Exile gets to "see" each other through the force instead of some dumb speech by Disciple...

That is not applying the same rules across the board equally. No one knows how Exile feels about any of the NPCs because Exile never gets a chance to express her/his feelings. That does not just apply to Atton. Visas is the one who begged him to let her look on him. His responses, which i was quite unimpressed with actually, were very non-commital and quite dismissive. There came no resolution to how Exile felt about anything. Thus we can question every single one of every Exile incarnation's relationships. And on top of that, whether Atton could have her or not is up to her and not up to Kreia. If one uses Kreia having said that about Atton as an argument to decide his love is unrequitted, than none of Exile's potential relationships could ever come to fruition since Kreia disapproves of them all.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Atton seems to think so...

Atton: "Oh, yeah, one other thing - don't think I haven't noticed the way you've been sparring with our ex-Jedi friend. This isn't some pleasure yacht, so if I did know all the Echani movements, I might know more than just the first tier, including the etiquette rituals. So keep your hands where I can see them." :wub:

i've answered this in my previous post. i will also add Atton is taking a shot at Brianna by saying "keep your hands where I can see them" as if she would try to get fiesty with him. Brianna not trusting Atton is specifically because he knows the Echani ways and he presents a threat to her since he could come right out and tell Exile what she is doing. She obviously hasn't pursued that though beyond the thong, else Atton would not present a threat to her.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Fair enough, but there is still no romance in that.

:blink:

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]The problem is that I don't believe that the female Exile loves Atton. Neither does Atton, for that matter... :ermm:

i can't debate how you feel, obviously. But that Atton feels Exile doesn't love him has to do with his own issues and not with Exile. As i've stated before, no one knows what Exile feels, possibly other than the devs at Obsidian, because there is no venue for Exile to express her/himself in the game.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]And I don't agree that he has more impact than anyone else. Sure, his secret is significant to Revan's corrupting influence, but you could say the same about Bao-Dur's doomsday-machine or Visas' ties to Nihilus - they're all important to the plot. In fact, among the three mentioned here, Atton's is probably the least important, since Revan is not in the game, whereas you must confront both Nihilus and Malachor V itself... Nah, I'm just messing with you - Atton is as significant, but not more so, I think.

LOL you enjoy messing with my head way too much there, Jediphile. i just may return the favour one day... :shifty:

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]She's reduced to an info-dispenser. All she's good for is getting information from, just like 3727 other forgettable NPCs inhabiting the game. As for Atris being affected by the Exile, how do you figure that - the Exile isn't even important enough to send her lowest servant after her. Scarcely an indication of importance...

i figured it 'cause Brianna the info-dispencer dispenced that info with the exact same conversation about it with female Exile at the Telos academy as she does with a male Exile. Go figure. "

Atris kept Exile's lightsabre and wouldn't give it back regardless of what sex Exile is. Atris lured Exile out of exile regardless of what sex Exile is. Atris was messed-up in her head about Exile's preceived fall regardless of Exile's sex. It cannot be denied female Exile is important to Atris. Another way of looking at it is this: what hurts more, the fall from grace of someone whom you respect and admire, or someone whom you had an attraction to? It is a rhetorical question asked only to shed a bit of light on why Atris cared so deeply about Exile's 'fall'.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Handmaiden: "Because when my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed. When I look upon you, I see in you an answer to a question I have searched for all my life. And that is why I tell you this now. I do not believe you to be the monster Atris made you out to be. I believe your choice was my father's choice, and it was just as difficult. I do not claim to understand you. There are times when your actions are a mystery to me - but I do not wish my actions to be a mystery to you.Malachor V is the place where I lost my mother and my father. But it was their choice to fight the Mandalorians - and to die there, if Malachor was to be their grave."

All that binds Exile and Brianna in that conversation is the fact her parents fought on Malachor V and that she sees Exile carries a similar burden that her father did. That is deeply important to her, but it isn't personally relevant to Exile. She is empathizing with Exile but also learning from his experience. Not the other way around. i'm not saying she is insignificant nor am i demeaning her in anyway. Just related to the point of this particular issue of what the NPCs bring to Exile, Brianna can only offer herself, a few bits of information about Atris, and the knowledge Kae is her mother. Now that on its own isn't important, but if Kreia is Kae (mere speculation suggested in other threads) than that would be super significant. But we don't know and it doesn't seem to be in any of the cut content, therefore, we cannot count it as truth thus Brianna offers little plot wise. But do recall i said earlier basing an NPCs merrit on that alone is questionable.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Handmaiden: "My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path. If I were to follow a Jedi against Atris' wishes, then I would be betraying her. For you. This is a difficult thing for me to say, but I ask that you be silent as I tell you this.It is my desire to learn from you what you can teach me of battle. I have already learned much in our duels, but with every battle, I wish to know more of you.Your stance, your movements, I can sense shades of meaning, and an echo of something I have yet to experience.Atris said that you were the only Jedi to have survived the Mandalorian Wars. That you had stared into the heart of war, and only turned away because you were forced to.I do not believe her. I believe that you made a choice... as my father did. And that is important to me, more than you know.And you are important to me, more than you know. I will accept whatever you wish to teach me, though it breaks my oath to Atris.

Not quite the same thing, I think, and not just her personal story either... :shifty:

She is stating she is devoted to him and that she wants to learn from him. Same points as the argument above.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Because it begs the question of what she admired. For the male Exile, she was in love with him. Fine, I get that. But what about the female Exile?

We don't have a single clue what went on at the Dantooine academy. None. Maybe Exile saved Atris' life, maybe Exile found out a dirty little secret of Atris' but didn't hold it against her and they developed a friendship. Who knows? Why does it even matter? Does anyone question why Brianna out of the blue falls for Exile? No. It is just an accepted fact. Atris admires and respects Exile. That is just a fact in the game and the players have to just accept it since no alternative is presented.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]It was clearly before the Exile left for the Mandalorian Wars, which puts it at least twelve years before K2. It could be a few years earlier, but I doubt it is more, or it would be too far back in time to be credible given the Exile's apparent age IMHO.

My first point was, just because Vrook said that about Exile doesn't mean everyone else felt the same about Exile as he did. My second point was, that recording could have been made when Exile was still a child or a young teen so there is no way to logically use that recording as evidence there was no reason for Atris to admire Exile.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Well, we disagree there. We saw Anakin fall because he loved Padme and couldn't bear to lose her. That Atris (cold ice-queen that she is...) should have a similar fate appeals to me :shifty:

Anakin fell because he became an arrogant sod. Padme had little to do with it. The Jedi find it much easier to cast blame on his fall on love than it is for them to admit that when he came under their care he was a kind child who put others before himself. 10 years thereafter he was conceited, impatient, and had dark side tendencies. He did not slaughter the Sandpeople village because he loved Padme. Nor was he reckless and disobedient because of Padme. Although i can see the appeal in having a similarity to Atris' and Anakin's love, it doesn't change the facts of the game. Exile was important to Atris regardless of Exile's sex.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Pretty strong impact in my book.

For whom? Atris and Brianna. Not Exile.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Right, but the second the Exile can hear Bao-Dur's thoughts but Kreia can't, you'll begin wondering if there is a deeper connection, if the Exile is female. I think that obscures how the connection really comes from Bao-Dur being involved directly in the one defining moment of the Exile's life that altered him/her completely. Sure, other NPCs may highlight specific aspects, but Bao-Dur's presence is a reminder of the very focal point of where all the Exile's trials led both to and from.

That isn't necessarily true. i had no clue Bao-Dur was supposed to have been a romantic interest until i read it in a thread. i didn't wonder at all if there was a difference between them when i first played just by virtue of Exile being female. And i still don't get at all how with Bao-Dur if there is attraction it obscures their being connected through Malachor V, yet it is said to add to Visas' and Atris' ties to the Exile. i can't understand why. This seem illogical and biased to me. The fact that Bao-Dur's connection to Exile comes from them both being in a war seems to be the only basis for that statement. She was a general. Deal with it. And even if he does have a thing for her, or her for him, or them for eachother, how does that attraction take away from their having shared a traumatic and life altering experience? In situations like those, feelings tend to arise. When Exile listens in on the crew's thoughts, it was a very powerful image in the last shot of Bao-Dur whispering "Malachor V". That drove home the importance of Malachor V and his and Exile's connection. Attraction had nothing to do with it. Besides, we don't know if he and/or Exile were to have felt that way before reuniting or if it was supposed to occur during the journey.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]It is to me.

i honestly do get the fact you don't like Mical. Really, i do. But whether someone in particular finds him exciting or boring doesn't have much to do with the issues we are discussing. What would the reaction be if i said (not that i am, i just mean for the sake of making a point) Brianna was an immature and childish exhibitionist. Pitchforks and molotov c0cktails, i'm sure. And it would be entirely besides the point of what we are discussing.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]As Xard has already pointed out, there were plenty of other jedi around - the order did not suddenly crumble because there were no jedi left to teach others. Revan and Malak were fairly young jedi, and so were most of those who followed them to war, which doesn't suggest they were teachers. Sure, some undoubtedly were, but more likely the majority were students who left their masters. You need look no further than Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar to see masters who lost or missed students. So it seems unlikely nobody was there to teach Mical.

Dealt with this in my response to Xard above. But to refresh, no, there weren't. And one can only base the facts on what goes on in the game. In the game, there was no one to teach him. Stating logical facts that would point to this not being so is interesting for discussing, but those are not the in-game facts and they cannot be used to subvert in-game goings on.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]No basis for that assumption (beyond presumptions based on the male Exile's story) and no impact on the story whatsoever.

In the replay i did to prove Mical didn't have anyone to teach him, he also states he is working for the Republic. To prove this is the following quote "I am on a diplomatic mission. I am one of several tasked with attempting to contact any remaining Jedi and convince them to return to the Republic." The issue up for debate was the complexity of the character, not the relevance it held to the overarcing plot. It is significant that he is working for the Republic with regards to character complexity. It has significance to the bigger plot too BTW.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]You're completely overlooking the Handmaiden's father, who she in no small way sees in the Exile, as evidenced by the quotes above. That's where her story with the Exile comes from, along with his significance on Malachor V, where her mother died.

Her mother dying on Malachor V is indeed significant if she died directly because of the use of the MSG. If not, then it doesn't matter since Exile would not have been responsible for her actions on the field unless s/he was her commmander. The fact all that happened on Malachor V in and of itself is relevant and does tie Brianna's parents into that event. But the question was what the NPCs directly added to Exile's experiences. With Brianna, it is about how Exile affected her. Not saying that isn't valid for its own sake, just saying it doesn't fit in with the previous discussion criteria.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions.

Riiiiiight. And Atris, a Jedi Master loving a Jedi makes so much more sense.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]I might equally well ask you why it is fine for obscurity in Atton's case, but not for Visas.

i never said Visas' ambiguity isn't fine. i never said Visas having feelings for male Exile only is somehow bad. All i said is i personally find it more compelling for Visas to be that devoted to Exile in all of Exile's incarnations rather than to have her love male Exile. i found it more intence for her to be drawn to the commonality between hers and Exile's pain than for her to be attracted to him since i felt her being so engrossed in her devastating past and not seeing a way out (for she does expect them all to die when confronting Nihilus) was lessened by the attraction. i also didn't say that Atton's obscurity added to the romance. i asked why Visas' should but Atton's shouldn't.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Besides, I do see an important distinction in those characters themselves. Atton is a fairly simple guy - the uncomplicated soundrel. "The fool" as Kreia would say. He hides a bit secret, but once you get that, Atton is pretty simple to figure out. Kreia also controls him pretty easily as a consequence by simply playing on his fears. He does not have the depth to see beyond that himself and tell her what to go do with herself.

Ok. This is a big issue of contention for me. Atton was absolutely in no way simple. He was not a stereotypical scoundrel in either the evil archetype nor the good archetype. The fact he is refered to as "the fool" has historical context and meaning. The fool is actually not an idiot, the fool is clever and manipulative and cannot be held down by others. The fact Atton has a secret isn't the big deal, it is what Atton did, how he did it, and how he followed his own path that are the big deal. That he took a risk by telling Exile is a big deal. His motivations and the decisions he reaches are far from simple. He isn't simply swayed by others, nor is he independant of being affected by others which makes for a complex psyche. Atton is far from easy to figure out. Kreia does hold him captive in a sense, but does she really? She later tells him he let himself be held, yet it cannot be denied she still can exert some power over him. No one knows to what extent he let Kreia feel she has power over him nor if he was playing along. Atton is constantly being torn in many different directions by his feelings and insticnts, which are often in conflict. It is Kreia who planted the idea of Atton being a fool and an imbecile. And it was Kreia who suggested the possibility of Visas being untrustworthy. i wonder why she did that, and why she did that spefically to those 2.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Visas, on the other hand, is complex by her very nature. The veil covers more than just her eyes. It is an indication of all the things that lie hidden within her. And she's difficult to figure out. She is often said to be totally submissive to the Exile (particularly the male Exile), yet she has no trouble refusing to wear the thong or admonish the Exile for taking risks or generally refuse that he/she confront Nihilus. You expect complexity, mystery, even potential betrayal in her. Another layer doesn't matter, because she is already pretty ambigious to begin with, unlike Atton.

Visas is complex. Her history alone makes that unaviodable. The mere fact she has gone through that and lived shows she is capable of exerting incredible psychological endurance. Visas is an awesome character. i do wonder though if she really is that difficult to figure out. Nihilus sent her to fetch Exile. So she is doing that. She is willing to sacrifice her life for Exile (regarless of sex and/or alignment) because Nihilus wants Exile so if Exile dies, Visas can't fulfill her mandate. She doesn't see life as worth living, nor protecting, so it makes perfect sense for her to refuse to indulge anyone else's demands that did not assist with fulfilling her assignment such as putting on the Vogga dancer outfit. She did protest to Exile confronting Nihilus, but it happens anyway. It isn't until later, in a converstation with her that requires influence, that she states she beieves there may be something worth living for. That gets echoed with male Exile before they go to the Ravager. It then gets cemented on the Ravager when she confronts her path and decides to live either for revenge or for her own sake. Visas grew as a person and changed, but that progression wasn't too hard to follow. Atton's loyalty was always in doubt. Especially after he admits he is a deserter and he tells Exile he isn't certain why he is trying to help. Atton's loyalty is tenuous at best. There seemed to be no doubt about Visas' loyalty to Exile. It was Kriea who suggested there was.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Good - you're learning... :shifty:

Hey! *grumble* making it seem i don't like Visas *grumble some more*

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]I'd probably agree with you if it were not for the fact that I just don't buy Sion's alleged love for the female Exile. There is no basis for it. It's just thrown in there as a gimmick in the 11th hour IMHO, and you have to accept it as such, which I don't. And therefore I think it hurts the female Exile's story in K2.

Buy it or don't, you're right about it being just thrown in there. Or poorly cut out. But i cannot see how it hurts female Exile's story. Just because Sion feels for her (ie obsession from afar type of deal perhaps?) doesn't mean she cares one whit for him. i can't see how a villian finding the main character beautiful detracts from that character. There is alot of potential in Sion, so i assume if other works were to be done about KotOR II, they would do it properly.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]As I've said, I'm not buying the Atton-female Exile relationship, and even if I did, I would definitely see that as weaker than those of the male Exile.

Oh, get off it! How is Atton's relationship weaker than Brianna's, Atris', or Visas'? It isn't. So there.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Be that as it may, both Atris and Brianna herself both did see it as betrayal against Atris.

Yes, even so, that doesn't make it more significant to Exile. Exile is the one who noticed how when Kreia repeated Brianna's vow to Atris she wouldn't be breaking her vow by becoming a Jedi. That she decided to become a Jedi is important. No question about that. The issue was how her becoming a Jedi and feeling as if she was breaking her vow impacted Exile.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]No, Brianna has direct ties back to Malachor V through her parents, and that is tied directly to the Exile. Mical doesn't. He may have known the female Exile, but apparently didn't care enough to follow her. And Brianna is more than just a subplot, due to the similarities she sees between her father and the male Exile. She never names her mother herself, but interestingly Kreia does, and to the male Exile. Brianna presence makes Kreia tell you more about Arren Kae than Mical ever does.

Brianna's parents have a direct tie to Malachor V. She had little to do with it other than the personal impact of her mother being presumed dead and her father being broken. Yusanis had nothing to do with Exile personally. Kae was one of Revan's masters, not Exile's. Tell me what good would a youth have been on the field of battle at Malachor V? There is no way Mical could have followed her. He would have had to have been either lacking in the common sense department, suicidal, or obsessed beyond the bounds of rational thought. Brianna had no clue Kae taught Revan, Mical does. Brianna tells Exile she knows her mother's name so where lies the significance in Kreia revealing it first? The only explanation i see is to give Exile more power over Brianna, and manipulation is one of the things Kreia is trying to teach Exile. Mical is the one who lists Revan's former masters and that whole memory block he has comes up for Revan's master after Kae. And other than Kae having been one of Revan's masters, Kae is completely irrelevant to Exile (unless Exile is responsible for her death). Funny how earlier you state that Atton is irrelevant because he only brings insight about Revan, yet Brianna's mother is important eventhough she was only one of Revan's masters. Why is there such a bias between them?

Sure, eventually the echoes plot gets revealed through Kreia and the council. But Mical is also the means Kreia's mind controling ability gets depicted as it does nowhere else.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]No. Kreia admits herself that she can do this. And though she claims not to control the Exile, she also admit that he/she wouldn't be able to tell the difference, if she did, so I don't think that is entirely correct.

i'll re-emphasize the important phrase of my last statement: gets depicted. It is only with Mical does the player get to see how Kreia messes with people's minds, is all i was saying.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM][the end - honestly! :shifty: ]

" Me too!

Edited May 11, 2006 by Hekate

Xard · May 11, 2006

Yes, of course it should be done with better writing and exposure. So what is the problem with a cannonical female Exile?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because story is stronger as male :blink:

That suppressed feelings thing. Well, Brianna is complex enough already, but I mostly ment Atris with that. He is much better character as male IMO

Anyway, we aren't ones that are going to decide it.

And Revan must be male! Seriously. I won't freak out if Exile is made to be female, but Revan is other thing to me. He was always he to me. I never even thought that he could be possibly female as canonical character. Kotor was great game, it's my favorite still and this is little bit selfish but anyway: I always liked that game was best as LSM, then comes DSF, and LSF and DSM are equals. That's why I never could've imagined that canonical Revan could've been different, heh. :wub: Well that doesn't have much to do debate, it is just my personal, unchangeable opinion

edit: "[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Because any narrative plot, whether in movies, books, tv-shows, or even computer games should be founded on good writing and not trying cater to a basis of equality.

Given that, how is female Exile found to be lacking any more than male Exile?"

Because in our opinion story is better as male

edit2: About the movies... beginning of Rotj also shows how Luke have evolved from the total rookie he was in ESB

edit3: "Anakin fell because he became an arrogant sod. Padme had little to do with it. The Jedi find it much easier to cast blame on his fall on love than it is for them to admit that when he came under their care he was a kind child who put others before himself. 10 years thereafter he was conceited, impatient, and had dark side tendencies. He did not slaughter the Sandpeople village because he loved Padme. Nor was he reckless and disobedient because of Padme. Although i can see the appeal in having a similarity to Atris' and Anakin's love, it doesn't change the facts of the game. Exile was important to Atris regardless of Exile's sex."

Umm...Anakin falled to DS because he couldn't GIVE UP anything. He can't bear "losing things", and certainly not Padme. He couldn't let her go, he loved her too much, propably hoping that they could've live forever o:)

edit4: ( (w00t) ) If we would decide thing as voting, I presume that male Exile wins, because nearly no one likes Disciple, instead, most like Brianna. But that isn't important thing anyway

Edited May 11, 2006 by Xard

Jediphile · May 11, 2006

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Given that, how is female Exile found to be lacking any more than male Exile?

Because I find the male Exile's story to be more compelling and consistent than the female Exile's for the reasons I have described in recent posts. Entirely subjective, of course, but then it must be.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Which is clearly not the case with KotOR II. So again, for the umpteenth time, why the difficulty with cannon female Exile?

No, it is a problem in K2, because the gender is optional and yet the game tries to both options. I have little doubt that the gaming experience could have been deeper if they had chosen a fixed gender from the beginning. Not that what's there is bad, I'm just saying the plot could have been more compelling had gender been determined in advance.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

What i do know is that Leia got caught by Jabba trying to rescue Han, and she is humiliated by being made into Jabba's plaything. To add insult to injury, she has to wear that lovely thong with a modesty cover patch of which Bianna's outfit is reminiscent. She is in chains and forced to endure Jabba fondling her. She does get to strangle him though, but only at the opportunity Luke presents. Luke waltzes in using Force powers, beats a Rancor, saves the day, and again saves Leia with a conveniently placed swinging line. Which one seems more heroic and self-confident to you?

Leia does... because she at least is not captured by a bunch of cuddly teddy bears who then they don't even get to take revenge against (they want to eat Han and thinks that 3PO is a god, for crying out loud!!!) and who even gets to save the day in the end (fighting and defeating stormtroopers with bows and arrows... and rocks!!!). Which do you find more humiliating? (The only worse example I can think of is when they have the beholder chasing after a thrown rock in the D&D movie - A rock, I tell you!!!!!!!!!!!) Luke didn't so much go to heroically face Vader and the emperor as flee from the obvious embarrasment that the plot had forced upon the rebels...

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

(w00t) So technically you are agreeing with me. i am glad 'cause i was really startin' to worry.

I agree that I have no problem playing strong female leads in CRPGs. But that doesn't mean that I agree the female Exile story was better or as good as the male Exile story in K2.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

And with that we lose the progress we had made.

Which progress? :huh:

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

i am fairly certain Zez-Kai Ell never spoke of Exile being a wound in the Force. i am also fairly certain he did not imply there is a connection to all of this through Malachor V. Those revelations were left for the big "ta-da" when the Jedi Council tells Exile all that stuff. The only way to find out what the others are yappin' about is when Kreia finally stops playing with Disciple and she gets him to tell her what he has figured out. Then they discuss the echoes, how the planets involved are significant and not random, and how it has the potential to kill all life if the wound isn't healed.

I don't see how you can put significance on that and yet deny at the same time that the background of Brianna has no significance because it does not relate directly to the Exile. The female Exile never heard the conversation you refer to here, so by your own logic, it should be a non-issue.

Besides, it's a spoiler, and that's never good. And it's a bad spoiler in the sense of telling me, as the player, that here is something that is important, only my character is not allowed to know it yet. In that case I don't want to know it all until my character finds out.

It has long been a sore point for me, particularly in tabletop RPGs that I'd rather not hear things that I'm not allowed to act on, because it makes me second-guess what I can reasonably except my character to have deduced at certain points in the plot. I have often discussed this with a GM, who wanted to give general information to the group so that he wouldn't have to repeat it all later, even though some of our characters would not have that information yet. In those cases I asked to not be told or offered to leave the room, which the GM sometimes objected to, because it would mean a lot of role-playing for that info later. But I did prefer not to know, because then I would have no problem with having my character act however I chose to while the GM objected on the basis that I was making choices on the basis of information that I had but not my character.

Obviously this is less of a problem in a CPRG, where the plot is completely linear and all my possible options for action determined in advance, but I still find it annoying. I want my big surprise, dammit! KotOR is cinematic, and I accept it, so I can live with it to some degree. For example, when Kreia forces Atton in the Telos academy, I learn as a player that Atton has a big secret, but the Exile doesn't. But the Exile finds out that there is more to Atton just after, when he talks to the handmaiden sisters, just not the magnitude of the secret. He can even bring it up with Atton afterwards. The Disciple revealing things about force wounds is far more annoying, however, because it relates directly to the Exile, and yet I'm not allowed to explore it myself.

It's an annoying reset-button. I mean:

Disciple: "Hey, I just figured something really important and it's this... I better go and tell the Exile *right* now!!!"

Kreia: "No, we can't have that..." [insert random mind-wipe here] :ermm:

Bloody annoying!!

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Mical also informs Exile he has figured out that Revan was not out to destroy the Republic, but rather to protect it.

No, he just speculates about it, and he's not the only one - GOTO does too. Or rather, you can very clearly deduce it from GOTO's comments.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

That made things clear in a way it isn't anywhere else in the game. As has been seen in other threads, the Jedi Masters and Kreia contradict themselves in their explanations of the Force wound, the Exile, and all that.

:huh:

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Yet in an earlier statement you say not knowing if Visas loves Exile for him or because he can defeat Nihilus makes it better:

That is not applying the same rules across the board equally. No one knows how Exile feels about any of the NPCs because Exile never gets a chance to express her/his feelings. That does not just apply to Atton. Visas is the one who begged him to let her look on him. His responses, which i was quite unimpressed with actually, were very non-commital and quite dismissive. There came no resolution to how Exile felt about anything. Thus we can question every single one of every Exile incarnation's relationships. And on top of that, whether Atton could have her or not is up to her and not up to Kreia. If one uses Kreia having said that about Atton as an argument to decide his love is unrequitted, than none of Exile's potential relationships could ever come to fruition since Kreia disapproves of them all.

No, we don't know what the Exile feels, but it does seem to me that there will be no relationship between Atton and the female Exile, not because the Exile doesn't have feelings (we don't know, or rather only the player knows), but because Atton doesn't seem to believe it himself. He loves her, but he does it on a purely idealized and platonic level - he would never accept it if she returned those feelings, because it would lower her in his eyes, and so their love is doomed by its very definition. Atton idolizes the female Exile and won't accept her as anything less. She's an ideal and he loves her for that. His love for her is a bit like Eowyn's for Aragorn in "Lord of the Rings" in that he loves the potential and the perfection of her more than the person herself. Brianna's love for the male Exile is a bit similar, but she is far more unaware of it than Atton is - he knows that his love is hopeless, because he would not accept it otherwise. At least that's my take on it.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]LOL you enjoy messing with my head way too much there, Jediphile. i just may return the favour one day... :shifty:

I shall wait with breathless anticipation... :shifty:

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

It cannot be denied female Exile is important to Atris.

No, but we don't know why that is for the female Exile whereas it is obvious for the male Exile, and that hurts the credibility of the female Exile's plot.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Maybe Exile saved Atris' life, maybe Exile found out a dirty little secret of Atris' but didn't hold it against her and they developed a friendship. Who knows? Why does it even matter?

It matters because that is the basis for the relationship between the Exile and Atris, and if the characters are to be compelling, then we need to understand their motives and reasons for doing and acting as they do. For Atris we get that in the male Exile's story, but not in the female Exile's.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Does anyone question why Brianna out of the blue falls for Exile? No. It is just an accepted fact.

I did quesiton it, but the game answered the question, and the answer made sense. I understand her motives. That makes it compelling in the narrative.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Anakin fell because he became an arrogant sod. Padme had little to do with it. The Jedi find it much easier to cast blame on his fall on love than it is for them to admit that when he came under their care he was a kind child who put others before himself. 10 years thereafter he was conceited, impatient, and had dark side tendencies. He did not slaughter the Sandpeople village because he loved Padme. Nor was he reckless and disobedient because of Padme.

I agree with this except that Padma had nothing to do with his fall. Sure, he was arrogant, impatient, and lusted for power, but even then, Anakin could see the difference between right and wrong, and he needed the threat against Padme as a pretext for embrasing the dark side, because he would never admit his lust for power to himself. So while your characterization is correct, I do not agree that Padme is irrelevant - he needed her as a catalyst for turning to the dark side, even if it was just a convenient excuse he used to convince himself.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]That isn't necessarily true. i had no clue Bao-Dur was supposed to have been a romantic interest until i read it in a thread. i didn't wonder at all if there was a difference between them when i first played just by virtue of Exile being female. And i still don't get at all how with Bao-Dur if there is attraction it obscures their being connected through Malachor V, yet it is said to add to Visas' and Atris' ties to the Exile. i can't understand why. This seem illogical and biased to me.

It has to do with who they are as characters. Both Visas and Atris are strong and complex characters with a lot of depth and obviously hidden secrets. A character like Bao-Dur seems rather more uncomplicated by comparison. He isn't really, but his big secret is something he already shares with the Exile, so you already know what is troubling him, you already know his motives. He is open to the Exile in ways that Atris and Visas never will be (well, maybe Visas could be, but we're not sure for a long time).

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]The fact that Bao-Dur's connection to Exile comes from them both being in a war seems to be the only basis for that statement. She was a general. Deal with it. And even if he does have a thing for her, or her for him, or them for eachother, how does that attraction take away from their having shared a traumatic and life altering experience? In situations like those, feelings tend to arise.

Precisely, and that's the problem. If they reached out to each other only on a basis of a horrible experience they shared, then that is not a good foundation for a lasting relationship. Besides, it brings the question of a Bao-Dur in love with the female Exile would confide his feelings to her, since she might be horrified and repulsed. He would not have that dilemma with a male Exile.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]i honestly do get the fact you don't like Mical. Really, i do. But whether someone in particular finds him exciting or boring doesn't have much to do with the issues we are discussing. What would the reaction be if i said (not that i am, i just mean for the sake of making a point) Brianna was an immature and childish exhibitionist. Pitchforks and molotov c0cktails, i'm sure.

No, more like that we don't see nearly enough of that in computer games :wub: :devil:

Seriously, she is a bit, which is why I prefer Visas... But Brianna does at least have an interesting story to tell, whereas Mical is just, "none of the other jedi wanted to play with me after you left...". Well, boo-hoo for you, Mical - let get out my violin for you... :shifty:

It's just not interesting, and I don't see it as particularly relevant to the story.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

In the game, there was no one to teach him. Stating logical facts that would point to this not being so is interesting for discussing, but those are not the in-game facts and they cannot be used to subvert in-game goings on.

I guess part of my problem is that Mical's postulate that there were nobody left to teach him just doesn't make any sense - plenty of jedi were trained at the academies (including Bastila) after Revan and Malak went to fight the Mandalorian Wars, so the claims of no teachers really is not very plausible. In fact, I think it makes so little sense that I'll dare to say that Mical is either just lying or mistaken.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

In the replay i did to prove Mical didn't have anyone to teach him, he also states he is working for the Republic. To prove this is the following quote "I am on a diplomatic mission. I am one of several tasked with attempting to contact any remaining Jedi and convince them to return to the Republic." The issue up for debate was the complexity of the character, not the relevance it held to the overarcing plot. It is significant that he is working for the Republic with regards to character complexity. It has significance to the bigger plot too BTW.

How so? It never comes up again later in the story, and Mical never reports in to Carth in the female Exile's story. So I'm going to disagree with you and conclude that it really doesn't matter, which is disappointing. At least there was some fallout for Brianna when she chose to follow the Exile over her masters... I guess Carth was just glad to be rid of Mical... :shifty:

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Riiiiiight. And Atris, a Jedi Master loving a Jedi makes so much more sense.

What I meant was why he didn't question these rules if he was clearly in love. Atris was not going to give up her position in any event, but Mical had no position yet and could just have left, if his emotions went against the jedi teachings. Yet the whole matter is just brushed over and the consequences of it ignored in Mical's case, which makes for some pretty bad storytelling.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

i never said Visas' ambiguity isn't fine. i never said Visas having feelings for male Exile only is somehow bad. All i said is i personally find it more compelling for Visas to be that devoted to Exile in all of Exile's incarnations rather than to have her love male Exile. i found it more intence for her to be drawn to the commonality between hers and Exile's pain than for her to be attracted to him since i felt her being so engrossed in her devastating past and not seeing a way out (for she does expect them all to die when confronting Nihilus) was lessened by the attraction. i also didn't say that Atton's obscurity added to the romance. i asked why Visas' should but Atton's shouldn't.

Visas is a complex character, and it's not going to hurt her if you add emotions on top of the rest of her complexity. Rather, it helps to explain some of her ambiguity. If she needs the Exile to confront and defeat Nihilus, then the Exile is just a tool for her, but if she also loves him, then she has a dilemma. That adds to her character IMO.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Atton was absolutely in no way simple. He was not a stereotypical scoundrel in either the evil archetype nor the good archetype. The fact he is refered to as "the fool" has historical context and meaning. The fool is actually not an idiot, the fool is clever and manipulative and cannot be held down by others.

I think that's a vast overinterpretation of what the term "fool" was used to suggest. It seems more to me like you're trying to rationalize the term because you didn't like the impression its use gave you of Atton.

Besides, being a simple guy does not mean that Atton is stereotypical, it just means he is not as complicated as Visas or Atris.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]The fact Atton has a secret isn't the big deal, it is what Atton did, how he did it, and how he followed his own path that are the big deal. That he took a risk by telling Exile is a big deal. His motivations and the decisions he reaches are far from simple. He isn't simply swayed by others, nor is he independant of being affected by others which makes for a complex psyche. Atton is far from easy to figure out. Kreia does hold him captive in a sense, but does she really? She later tells him he let himself be held, yet it cannot be denied she still can exert some power over him. No one knows to what extent he let Kreia feel she has power over him nor if he was playing along.

You seem to contradict yourself here, because you say Atton is complex, yet Kreia can figure him out in seconds and manipulates him with relative ease. That doesn't seem to me to support your claim of Atton's alleged complexity.

And I don't agree that he is complex. Male or female, what the Exile thinks of him matters to Atton (he begs Kreia not to reveal his secret, after all), and he goes to great lengths to hide it. But once you realise it, you understand Atton fully and completely and can predict his actions most of the time.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]There seemed to be no doubt about Visas' loyalty to Exile. It was Kriea who suggested there was.

Well, unlike Atton, Visas *did* try to kill the Exile. Not sure about you, but I tend to doubt people's loyalties in such cases... :shifty:

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

you're right about it being just thrown in there. Or poorly cut out. But i cannot see how it hurts female Exile's story. Just because Sion feels for her (ie obsession from afar type of deal perhaps?) doesn't mean she cares one whit for him. i can't see how a villian finding the main character beautiful detracts from that character. There is alot of potential in Sion, so i assume if other works were to be done about KotOR II, they would do it properly.

Perhaps, but as it is, it is not very convincing to me. If they want to make it work, they must at least build a reason for Sion's emotions, and that is woefully lacking, which makes for poor storytelling.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Oh, get off it! How is Atton's relationship weaker than Brianna's, Atris', or Visas'? It isn't. So there.

Well... how can I possibly counter eloquent argumentation like that... :shifty:

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Yes, even so, that doesn't make it more significant to Exile. Exile is the one who noticed how when Kreia repeated Brianna's vow to Atris she wouldn't be breaking her vow by becoming a Jedi. That she decided to become a Jedi is important. No question about that. The issue was how her becoming a Jedi and feeling as if she was breaking her vow impacted Exile.

The Exile mentions several times that she will be breaking her vow to Atris if she accepts training, so clearly it was a signficant point to him. And it is important because of the ties to Atris, which can scarcely be said to be immaterial.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Brianna's parents have a direct tie to Malachor V. She had little to do with it other than the personal impact of her mother being presumed dead and her father being broken. Yusanis had nothing to do with Exile personally.

No, but he sure did with Revan.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

Mical is the one who lists Revan's former masters and that whole memory block he has comes up for Revan's master after Kae.

Kreia mentions them, too, and Mical doesn't remember them all.

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]

And other than Kae having been one of Revan's masters, Kae is completely irrelevant to Exile (unless Exile is responsible for her death). Funny how earlier you state that Atton is irrelevant because he only brings insight about Revan, yet Brianna's mother is important eventhough she was only one of Revan's masters. Why is there such a bias between them?

I never said that Kae was significant in this context, so you'll have to answer that assumption yourself. Nor did I say Atton was irrelevant (in fact, I said the opposite). I just said that he was not more significant than certain other characters and that his romance option with the female Exile took away from the story.

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Would you prefer the exile as male or female? 88 members have voted

1. Would you prefer the exile as male or female?

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Would you prefer the exile as male or female?
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