Hekate Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Because I find the male Exile's story to be more compelling and consistent than the female Exile's for the reasons I have described in recent posts. Entirely subjective, of course, but then it must be. Subjective certainly, and arbitrally assigning worth to the female romance option characters and dismissing those same criteria entirely for the males. i'll use your own quotes to illustrate how you are discriminantly juxtaposing value of these criteria. On Atris vs Sion: I'd probably agree with you if it were not for the fact that I just don't buy Sion's alleged love for the female Exile. There is no basis for it. It's just thrown in there as a gimmick in the 11th hour IMHO, and you have to accept it as such, which I don't. And therefore I think it hurts the female Exile's story in K2. and how was Atris' love any different? She reacted the exact same way to all Exile incarnations. Male Exile does not find out how she came to care for him, nor what occured between them. It was just as convoluted, underexplained, and unsatisfactory as Sion's was. If an unexplained reason for loving the player character is reason enough to discount it than Atris must be discounted too. i changed my mind on this. Too durned tired. Can point them out later if needed. No, it is a problem in K2, because the gender is optional and yet the game tries to both options. I have little doubt that the gaming experience could have been deeper if they had chosen a fixed gender from the beginning. Not that what's there is bad, I'm just saying the plot could have been more compelling had gender been determined in advance. Where did this come from? Tell me your joking. Are you honestly suggesting KotORs would have been better with only a pre-determined sex as a lead? Not only does that limit player choice, that forces the in-game story line to be even more linear. i enjoyed played both male and female incarnations of Revan and Exile. i certainly would not want to have no choice. That is just sad Leia does... because she at least is not captured by a bunch of cuddly teddy bears who then they don't even get to take revenge against (they want to eat Han and thinks that 3PO is a god, for crying out loud!!!) and who even gets to save the day in the end (fighting and defeating stormtroopers with bows and arrows... and rocks!!!). Which do you find more humiliating? (The only worse example I can think of is when they have the beholder chasing after a thrown rock in the D&D movie - A rock, I tell you!!!!!!!!!!!) Luke didn't so much go to heroically face Vader and the emperor as flee from the obvious embarrasment that the plot had forced upon the rebels... Leia didn't get captured by them, no, no. Instead she got the incredibly empowering role of standing by and watching the Ewoks attempt to bar-b-que Luke & co after her little yelp that was supposed to be a protest: "But they're my friends". I'd add an exclamation mark, but that would be misleading. Luke uses his wit to get them out of the situation. Leia was oninously silent during the attempted roast (or maybe she just had a hankering to have some Han?) More humiliating would be Leia in the 'slave girl' outfit and chains being forced to let Jabba fondle her. Worse by a long shot. And yeah, when i saw the Beholder chasing after a thrown rock, i laughed so hard and wondered why no one thought of that in my party in BG II in the Beholder lair. Not even Boo, and Boo was supposed to be an ever so clever miniature giant space hamster too! [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] (w00t) So technically you are agreeing with me. i am glad 'cause i was really startin' to worry. I agree that I have no problem playing strong female leads in CRPGs. But that doesn't mean that I agree the female Exile story was better or as good as the male Exile story in K2. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] And with that we lose the progress we had made. Which progress? That fleeting yet blissful moment wherein we agreed that KotOR II with a well writen story with a female as the lead is a good thing. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]i am fairly certain Zez-Kai Ell never spoke of Exile being a wound in the Force. i am also fairly certain he did not imply there is a connection to all of this through Malachor V. Those revelations were left for the big "ta-da" when the Jedi Council tells Exile all that stuff. The only way to find out what the others are yappin' about is when Kreia finally stops playing with Disciple and she gets him to tell her what he has figured out. Then they discuss the echoes, how the planets involved are significant and not random, and how it has the potential to kill all life if the wound isn't healed. I don't see how you can put significance on that and yet deny at the same time that the background of Brianna has no significance because it does not relate directly to the Exile. The female Exile never heard the conversation you refer to here, so by your own logic, it should be a non-issue. *sigh* We are bringing together in the paragraphs above a commonality of events and characters based on disparate aspects of the debate. One was about the NPC's bringing plot relevant information to Exile (which i have already stated i am dubious of the validity of doing such which brought me to question if that then means Mira, Hanhaar, and Mandalore are to be considered extraneous), the second is the measure of the character's personal impact on Exile, the third is what the NPC brings to the story as a whole. That is one of the sources of conflict in our posts since these criteria gets mixed and then the clarity of what is being debated dissipates. So, for example, Brianna brings little plot relevance to Exile insofar as the echoes, Malachor V, and Exile being a wound in the Force , etc, go. Whereas she gets him to strip down to his undies, he can Jedify her, etc . She also serves as the plot tie-in of making Atris' love for Exile seem more credible. These are still points of contention, i realize; however i am endeavouring to make things clear. i, frankly, am unsure of how to keep them separate since in our discusions, things will flow together naturally as seen. Guess we'll just have to sally forth and do our best to try to understand eachothers' perspectives. So, in the light of the above paragraph, Mical's discoveries are significant pertaining to his character development, to the overall story, and to Exile since he explains his discoveries to her. Brianna's past is relevant to her character development and to a lesser degree to the overall plot. That would be how they have previously been compared. So to explain the reasoning behind my quote in red, i was refering specifically to how Mical brought plot relevance to Exile and to the player whereas Brianna could not by the virtue of her not being privy to such information. Besides, it's a spoiler, and that's never good. And it's a bad spoiler in the sense of telling me, as the player, that here is something that is important, only my character is not allowed to know it yet. In that case I don't want to know it all until my character finds out. Using that argument though throws the whole Atris romance option out since all of it occurs without Exile knowing. Same with Kreia's many machinations, same with Brianna beginning an argument with Visas, Atton talking with Brianna about the Echani rituals, there are many more.... If those are discounted for one, they must be discounted for all. But the story will be a heck of alot more choppy if they are discounted. Maybe even close to impossible to follow. It has long been a sore point for me, particularly in tabletop RPGs that I'd rather not hear things that I'm not allowed to act on, because it makes me second-guess what I can reasonably except my character to have deduced at certain points in the plot. I have often discussed this with a GM, who wanted to give general information to the group so that he wouldn't have to repeat it all later, even though some of our characters would not have that information yet. In those cases I asked to not be told or offered to leave the room, which the GM sometimes objected to, because it would mean a lot of role-playing for that info later. But I did prefer not to know, because then I would have no problem with having my character act however I chose to while the GM objected on the basis that I was making choices on the basis of information that I had but not my character. i concur it is difficult to pretend the character doesn't know when the player does. Some of the Exile-free scenes added some info about Exile to the plzayer that wasn't a gapping plot hole without it, such as when Atton asks Kreia why Exile is so un-Jedi-like at Telos. But then the others, where plot relevant things Exile should know but get unceremoniously dumped onto the player with no reference base... yikes. The example that comes to mind is when Atton asks Kreia about Dxun's significance and suddenly we're told Exile fought there and it was the last stronghold of the Mandalorians. Hun? Obviously this is less of a problem in a CPRG, where the plot is completely linear and all my possible options for action determined in advance, but I still find it annoying. I want my big surprise, dammit! KotOR is cinematic, and I accept it, so I can live with it to some degree. For example, when Kreia forces Atton in the Telos academy, I learn as a player that Atton has a big secret, but the Exile doesn't. But the Exile finds out that there is more to Atton just after, when he talks to the handmaiden sisters, just not the magnitude of the secret. He can even bring it up with Atton afterwards. The Disciple revealing things about force wounds is far more annoying, however, because it relates directly to the Exile, and yet I'm not allowed to explore it myself. It's an annoying reset-button. I mean: Disciple: "Hey, I just figured something really important and it's this... I better go and tell the Exile *right* now!!!" Kreia: "No, we can't have that..." [insert random mind-wipe here] Bloody annoying!! Sure. But that isn't Mical's fault so why hold that against him and use that as a reason to disregard his worth as a character? You don't hold it against Mira she ran around in the Jek'Jek'Tar in the spacesuit to go visit Visquis eventhough Exile ain't got a clue what is going on, do you? Exile is unconscious at the time. Can't get much more disengaged than that.. other than through death... No, he just speculates about it, and he's not the only one - GOTO does too. Or rather, you can very clearly deduce it from GOTO's comments. Yes Mical does. He says there is a correlation in the worlds Revan targetted and all that technical stuff and says Revan was attempting to unite the galaxy and not conquer it. In fact, he's the fisrt person in the game to make that observation. And what he says puts Kriea's revelation about Revan knowing the difference between a sacrifice and a fall into context. G0-T0 does say it is a misconception Revan sought to destroy the Republic, and judging by what Revan left untouched, had some reason for keeping the Republic with enough resources so it wouldn't collapse. Not the same, although one could argue they are similar. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] That made things clear in a way it isn't anywhere else in the game. As has been seen in other threads, the Jedi Masters and Kreia contradict themselves in their explanations of the Force wound, the Exile, and all that. The thread about whether Exile is a Force leech or a Force siphon. On one hand the Jedi Masters claim Exile is responsible for the Sith's leeching abilities or that they learned it from Exile, but on the other, they claim Exile is a leech therefore logic would dictate one cannot add to something when one is taking away from it. The question of how, if Exile is a wound in the Force, can Exile even use the Force... All those lovely discrepancies within the Masters' own words and also in Kreia's. With Mical, it was relaxingly clear for once. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Yet in an earlier statement you say not knowing if Visas loves Exile for him or because he can defeat Nihilus makes it better: That is not applying the same rules across the board equally. No one knows how Exile feels about any of the NPCs because Exile never gets a chance to express her/his feelings. That does not just apply to Atton. Visas is the one who begged him to let her look on him. His responses, which i was quite unimpressed with actually, were very non-commital and quite dismissive. There came no resolution to how Exile felt about anything. Thus we can question every single one of every Exile incarnation's relationships. And on top of that, whether Atton could have her or not is up to her and not up to Kreia. If one uses Kreia having said that about Atton as an argument to decide his love is unrequitted, than none of Exile's potential relationships could ever come to fruition since Kreia disapproves of them all. No, we don't know what the Exile feels, but it does seem to me that there will be no relationship between Atton and the female Exile, not because the Exile doesn't have feelings (we don't know, or rather only the player knows), but because Atton doesn't seem to believe it himself. He loves her, but he does it on a purely idealized and platonic level - he would never accept it if she returned those feelings, because it would lower her in his eyes, and so their love is doomed by its very definition. Atton idolizes the female Exile and won't accept her as anything less. She's an ideal and he loves her for that. His love for her is a bit like Eowyn's for Aragorn in "Lord of the Rings" in that he loves the potential and the perfection of her more than the person herself. Brianna's love for the male Exile is a bit similar, but she is far more unaware of it than Atton is - he knows that his love is hopeless, because he would not accept it otherwise. At least that's my take on it. That isn't taking in the whole picture though. He obviously thinks there is some chance since he took the risk of asking Bao-Dur about it. i also cannot see what magician's hat you pulled the notion of his loving her on an idealized and platonic level from. He has little love for Jedi, and he sees them as having their hands as stained in blood as the Sith. He also states Jedi are hypocrits, untrustworthy, and goes as far as saying they deserved what they got at Malachor V. That is pretty brutal, raw, and definitely not putting her on a pedestal of being an indomitable icon. He even confronts her with asking her how can she live with herself. He aims bellow the belt. i would hardly call that ideolizing her. Atton is a very complicated person. He is just as steadfast and loyal to male Exile, yet he has fallen for female Exile. In the cut content he confesses his love, heck, he even sacrifices himself for her depending on influence levels LS/DS ratings and possibly even on if he was Jedified or not. But then again, that is cut content so until the Restoration Project is done, we can't know stuff for certain. He sees her as just as tainted as he is since she is the one who ordered the MSG be activated. Only her crimes were swept under the cargo ramp, as he put it, and he has to live with his. Complex, compelling, deep, and messy. It's all good. i really think you're way off on the Eowyn-Aragorn comparisson there. But even the much revered Jediphile with Revan-like qualities can make mistakes from time to time And what's this about him loving specifically because she is close to perfection? It's not as if one has a choice over whom one loves. He didn't see her and put all his bagage aside and come up with this non-sensible notion of her reflecting perfection. Brianna though, has had much time to hear Atris' thoughts on Exile, and she has had the opportunity to develop some preconceived notions about Exile based on Atris' tellings and a long time for her curiosity to grow. She knows Exile disturbs Atris, gets under her skin in a personal way that no one else can. And that she finds compelling. Like a moth to flame made irrisistable with her exisisting curiosity about and a longing for becoming a Jedi. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]LOL you enjoy messing with my head way too much there, Jediphile. i just may return the favour one day... I shall wait with breathless anticipation... you just wait... you'll get yours No, but we don't know why that is for the female Exile whereas it is obvious for the male Exile, and that hurts the credibility of the female Exile's plot. How is it obvious for the male Exile? Just by virtue of him being male? Well then Sion doesn't need any motivation either since of course, female Exile is female. Silly point on both sides. As i stated in an earlier post, nobody other than possibly the devs have even the slightest notion of why Atris cares so deeply for Exile, but she does. i am trying to figure out why this is such a point of contention. Atris doesn't care less for male Exile than female Exile in the admiration and respect aspects. Whatever it is that binds them, binds them regardless of Exile's sex. Now they added an attraction sub-plot with male Exile. That is the only difference between them as far as Atris' feelings for Exile go. And i already backed-up this point with various proofs ie Atris keeping every Exile incarnations's lightsabre, etc. It matters because that is the basis for the relationship between the Exile and Atris, and if the characters are to be compelling, then we need to understand their motives and reasons for doing and acting as they do. For Atris we get that in the male Exile's story, but not in the female Exile's. How is the unknown explanation of why Atris loves male Exile more compelling than the unknown reason of why Atris respects and admires all Exile incarnations? Just because it is a romance plot? Is respecting someone genuinely more difficult to fathom than loving someone? i'd say in daily life respecting comes more often than loving on the whole. I did quesiton it, but the game answered the question, and the answer made sense. I understand her motives. That makes it compelling in the narrative. My bad for not being clear enough. What i meant was does anyone consider the fact she falls for Exile to be questionable, as opposed to what are her motives for falling for him. Same goes for Visas and Atris since all the male romantic interests have already been sufficiently put into question... (did i say that? Naughty me...) I agree with this except that Padma had nothing to do with his fall. Sure, he was arrogant, impatient, and lusted for power, but even then, Anakin could see the difference between right and wrong, and he needed the threat against Padme as a pretext for embrasing the dark side, because he would never admit his lust for power to himself. So while your characterization is correct, I do not agree that Padme is irrelevant - he needed her as a catalyst for turning to the dark side, even if it was just a convenient excuse he used to convince himself. So slaughtering an entire Sandpeople Village was right of him then? IIRC, he did that before Padme gave in to pursuing their sexual relationship. But i will concede to the point i exagerated when i said she had nothing to do with it since obviously his feelings for her added pressure and turmoil to his already tenuous grasp on his self-control. That was a rather silly thing to say in retrospect. But i do maintain she did not actively participate in his DS turning. That was all his own doing. It has to do with who they are as characters. Both Visas and Atris are strong and complex characters with a lot of depth and obviously hidden secrets. A character like Bao-Dur seems rather more uncomplicated by comparison. He isn't really, but his big secret is something he already shares with the Exile, so you already know what is troubling him, you already know his motives. He is open to the Exile in ways that Atris and Visas never will be (well, maybe Visas could be, but we're not sure for a long time). Visas has incredible mental endurance. Far beyond what most people have. Few could survive what she did. However she was in many ways very weak. That is not an insult nor berating, it is an indesputable fact of severe psychological trauma. That even when completely out of Nihilus' grasp she still needed to define herself by servitude substituting her tormentor shows she is stuck in very unhealthy patterns and she has alot of work to do. Again, her weaknesses are not in anyway diminishing her worth as a character. It adds complexity to her character, yet it also simplifies Exile's ability to understand her, her motivations, and her actions. That is why in a previous post i wrote her actions are relatively simple to understand. When she swore her loyalty to Exile: my life for yours, i took her to mean it at face value. Someone who has absolutely nothing to lose and is abused as she was by Nihilus, yet also sees no value in life and believes all life is ugly and should die... there is no reason for her to lie about anything. Judging by the cut-scene when they are first introduced on the Ravager, she pretty much has already given up and is alive only because Nihilus wills it. Atris seems rather weak to me though since she couldn't even master her feelings, and she is supposed to be a Jedi master. Hun. Atris being manipulative, backstabbing and a generally unpleasantly demeanoured person who had to set-up an entourage of non-threatening admirers and servants for her to feel superior is quite weak as well. As the game plays out, and one sees how Atris treats the Handmaidens and how she dispatches them, is indicative of her shallow character. Yes, she has a certain complexity as well though, but i do not find that does much to make up for her shortcomings. She is also weak because she is too afraid to look the truth right in the eye and she hides from in using a shield of hate and of being the victim rather than the perpetrator. If one finds her more compelling and worthy as a romantic interest than any of the male options for female Exile, meh, so be it. And here is where i find the discrepancy of how the weighing of the merrit of a character's complexity and worth as a potential love interest becomes disturbing. Bao-Dur is single handedly responsible for creating and then activating the mass shadow generator. He killed millions (?) with his own hands at the trigger. He made that weapon of mass destruction possible. That is one hell of a burden to live with. Close to the opposite of what Visas must endure. He carries all that same pain Exile does, albeit differently, and he has the added buren of guilt. Exile gave the order, but it is Bao-Dur who carried it out. And he faces what he has done. Not only that, he wishes to set things as right as he can for what he has done. Atris hides in her academy, scheming with delusions she is still a Jedi and she hasn't fallen. Bao-Dur works for Telos and the Ithorians, and he even wreaks a little havok with Czerka. He maintains ethics even through ghastly experiences. He is strong, complex, and compelling as a character. But the player has no clue about Malachor V in any substantial way until late in the game when Bao-Dur speaks of it in more detail through recounting his dream. It is eluded to, but not explained. He has many waring emotional factions within himself, which he is dealing with as a constant. That he is doing something productive in and of itself is remarkable. He has a very complex psyche, and the fact he can't do anything about the General having an effect on him despite his wishing it otherwise and actively fighting that inclination is compelling. He also forces Exile to stop hiding and face reality with Exile being told it is time for her/him to construct her/his lightsabre. Now the question is if attraction detracts from his and female Exile's relationship. i look at it this way, their attraction does not take away from what they have shared, nor does it diminish them as individuals. It doesn't minimize nor trivialize their friendship based relationship either. Female Exile and Bao-Dur have the same under current as male Exile and Bao-Dur. Precisely, and that's the problem. If they reached out to each other only on a basis of a horrible experience they shared, then that is not a good foundation for a lasting relationship. Besides, it brings the question of a Bao-Dur in love with the female Exile would confide his feelings to her, since she might be horrified and repulsed. He would not have that dilemma with a male Exile. The second point about female Exile being potentially repulsed is moot since Exile could be potentially put off by any and/or all of them. And if she does get horrified it doesn't prevent it from being meaningful. It is heartbreaking. Male Exile could be potentially repulsed by Atris. She did some very evil things but she didn't have the greater good as a motivation to have done so. Does that mean only mutually reciprocated attractions are worth anything? Even if Bao-Dur and Exile reach out to eachother on the basis of the experience they shared, it still doesn't take away what is already there. It would add more history to their relationship. Those 2 are unique in that respect compared to the others since none of them have the same rich history. Atris, one could argue, has a history with Exile. Certainly. But we have no clue what it is, which was previously used as an argument to devalue Atris' relationship with Exile. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]i honestly do get the fact you don't like Mical. Really, i do. But whether someone in particular finds him exciting or boring doesn't have much to do with the issues we are discussing. What would the reaction be if i said (not that i am, i just mean for the sake of making a point) Brianna was an immature and childish exhibitionist. Pitchforks and molotov c0cktails, i'm sure. No, more like that we don't see nearly enough of that in computer games LOL! Oh, man. If only everyone could see the irony in that! Seriously, she is a bit, which is why I prefer Visas... But Brianna does at least have an interesting story to tell, whereas Mical is just, "none of the other jedi wanted to play with me after you left...". Well, boo-hoo for you, Mical - let get out my violin for you... It's just not interesting, and I don't see it as particularly relevant to the story. Lemme get this straight. Atris, whose tie to Exile we don't know, and Brianna, who's personal link to Exile is through Atris, have more personal relevance to Exile than Mical whom we are certain has been taught by Exile and who was supposed to become her padawan. This should be good... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] In the game, there was no one to teach him. Stating logical facts that would point to this not being so is interesting for discussing, but those are not the in-game facts and they cannot be used to subvert in-game goings on. I guess part of my problem is that Mical's postulate that there were nobody left to teach him just doesn't make any sense - plenty of jedi were trained at the academies (including Bastila) after Revan and Malak went to fight the Mandalorian Wars, so the claims of no teachers really is not very plausible. In fact, I think it makes so little sense that I'll dare to say that Mical is either just lying or mistaken. IIRC, which i indeed may not be, Bastila had that super cool battle meditation which guaranteed her padawanship regardless of her lack of self-control and her haughtiness. i am not sure though whether she told Carth on Taris in KotOR her battle meditation hadn't manifested itself yet or hadn't fully manifested itself yet by the time Revan joined the Mandalorian Wars. Even if not, isn't really too relevant. Mical has never lied at any other point. The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... How so? It never comes up again later in the story, and Mical never reports in to Carth in the female Exile's story. So I'm going to disagree with you and conclude that it really doesn't matter, which is disappointing. At least there was some fallout for Brianna when she chose to follow the Exile over her masters... I guess Carth was just glad to be rid of Mical... LOL When i asked him, he was on the Ebon Hawk and it was right before the end-game rush of Dantooine. Hence it would indicate he is still actively working on his mission. There also is no indication he doesn't keep it up either. i can't remember if he refers to it at other times though. But based on what is there, thems the facts. But i am pretty sure he does do research and keep up with the Republic. i think that is one of the reasons Kreia makes him forget things; to control the flow of information. Supposition admitedly. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Riiiiiight. And Atris, a Jedi Master loving a Jedi makes so much more sense. What I meant was why he didn't question these rules if he was clearly in love. Atris was not going to give up her position in any event, but Mical had no position yet and could just have left, if his emotions went against the jedi teachings. Yet the whole matter is just brushed over and the consequences of it ignored in Mical's case, which makes for some pretty bad storytelling. Didn't question the rules because he is a more quiet person by nature, it would seem, who sees the value in respecting 'da rulz'. And he was a kid. He admired and respected Exile, had a thing for her as many youth do for people older than themselves but not old who mentor them, and she left a deep impression on him. Was it love at that age? Maybe. i did use the term love earlier, i am aware. i used it to simplify, which is, of course, comming back to kick me now. But oh well, c'est la vie. His emotions didn't turn against the Jedi until he was older and had passed the age of acceptance and he had time to think things through. He didn't get disheartened with the Jedi until the one he was waiting for to come back was exiled. That is when he realized if he was not going to get Exile as his mentor, whom he felt should be his mentor, than he did not feel the path of becoming a Jedi was right for him. This is all in the game, he explains it all. That it is overlooked by so many confuses me. *puzzlement* They told his story quite well compared to the other people's stories that came in disjointed bits or that were told through other people. i find it odd, surprise surprise, with the previously stated annoyance with disjointed narrative and telling things to a player outside of the player's scope, how you found Mical's backstory to be poorly told. His was done all by him, all one-on-one with Exile, and most of it could be accessed relatively easily and consecutively. *puzzlement* Visas is a complex character, and it's not going to hurt her if you add emotions on top of the rest of her complexity. Rather, it helps to explain some of her ambiguity. If she needs the Exile to confront and defeat Nihilus, then the Exile is just a tool for her, but if she also loves him, then she has a dilemma. That adds to her character IMO. That unfortunately depends on how one interprets Visas' motivations. i do understand how adding attraction on top of confusion adds to the intensity and desperation. But i also can see how what she is suffering with is enough on its own. By adding attraction, it makes that the larger focus than her pain and psychological state. The reason i say it does with visas and not with the others is specifically because of the severity of her trauma. It is indeed one thing to fall to the dark side, to kill Jedi, to have given the order, and quite another to be a victim. Especial of a devastating event of that nature. Her whole entire world was destroyed. Nothing living was left. Nothing. That kind of experience really f*cks a person over. i do see how if male Exile loved her and really was devoted to helping her through it would be adding depth. But that isn't the case judging from the cut content of Exile leaving for the vast unknown alone. Can't judge by what isn't there, true. But it still holds the question of Exile's devotion to her and ability to maintain it. of course it could be it just happens regardless of whether it is good or not. i just think the bond between Visas and Exile is stronger in a Force compulsion which grows into a friendship relationship rather than an attraction based relationship. But as i said before, Visas and Exile looking at eachother through the Force was quite moving. I think that's a vast overinterpretation of what the term "fool" was used to suggest. It seems more to me like you're trying to rationalize the term because you didn't like the impression its use gave you of Atton. Besides, being a simple guy does not mean that Atton is stereotypical, it just means he is not as complicated as Visas or Atris. My, my. Atton slaggin' time. Alright, i'll play too. Atton was simple because he had a complicated history. No, that doesn't work. Hmm... Atton is simple because he seems laid back and carefree but is always on his guard and very perceptive. That doesn't work either... Seems i'm not so good at this game. Seriously now, anyone who can keep track of everyone's business as well as galactic business, learns new skills faster than Einstein on speed, has a multitude of difficult to learn skills, is a social chameleon, can put up resistance to Kreia, has switched loyalties a few times and his own identity, and can read situations better than anyone else on the crew is not a simple character. His very thought process is fascinating. But the very fact he is constantly thinking subversively means he has developed a sub-level thought process that goes on under the surface, as is seen with mulit-tasking. He doesn't see things in cut and dry terms, he sees between the obvious. He can be callous and he can be caring. All that and my previous post point towards the "not simple" argument. But every character can be reduced the status of simple with enough simplifying. Oh, BTW, i felt the term fool fit quite appropriately to Atton in the historical context. When i think of the Shakespearean fool and the fool of the tarot, that is a fairly decent representation of Atton. And the fool is not foolish nor simple. Fools moves to the beat of their own drum and learn alot on the way. They are smart and versatile, but have their own slew of bagage. Sounds like Atton. You seem to contradict yourself here, because you say Atton is complex, yet Kreia can figure him out in seconds and manipulates him with relative ease. That doesn't seem to me to support your claim of Atton's alleged complexity. And I don't agree that he is complex. Male or female, what the Exile thinks of him matters to Atton (he begs Kreia not to reveal his secret, after all), and he goes to great lengths to hide it. But once you realise it, you understand Atton fully and completely and can predict his actions most of the time. Hun? Kreia figured him out in seconds? No, i don't think so. (Are we playing the same game?) Kreia was a former Jedi Master and Sith Lord. She needed to work on getting into his mind since he resisted her. Not bad for a non-Force trained person, whereas not even the Jedi Masters knew she was messing with their minds. And even if, for argument's sake that weren't the case, what would it matter even if she did? That doesn't make the character less complicated, it just makes them less mind-altering resistant. i also wonder why his wanting to keep the fact he was an elite Sith Assassin secret from a Jedi makes him simple. With his usual devil-may-care attitude, it would seem to go against his grain on the surface. Yet it doesn't because under the surface there is more to him. He is conflicted within himself, as are Bao-Dur and Visas. Those 3 are pulled in so many directions from both within and without. i wonder which actions of his you found to be predictable. That isn't snarky, BTW, i really am drawing a blank right now either way. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]There seemed to be no doubt about Visas' loyalty to Exile. It was Kriea who suggested there was. Well, unlike Atton, Visas *did* try to kill the Exile. Not sure about you, but I tend to doubt people's loyalties in such cases... LOL Yeah, but she got over it i guess i just saw Visas' character in a different light. i honestly thought when she vowed herself to Exile's service she meant it and that was that. She seemed to be too straight forward and too burdened to be able to go through the whole lying and scheming thing. What Kreia said (paraphrasing) " a Sith comes to your door and you let her live?" to me was an excelent point, but since Visas didn't feel that way to me, i pretty much ignored that piece of advice. i guess i also saw Visas attacking Exile not so much as an assassination attempt as a transference. From one warden to the next in the tradition of ritual combat. Her whole life from point of Nihilus destroying it on, is focused in violence. It is what she understands especially since loosing her sight. But meh, that is how i saw it. Doesn't mean anyone has to have seen it that way too. Perhaps, but as it is, it is not very convincing to me. If they want to make it work, they must at least build a reason for Sion's emotions, and that is woefully lacking, which makes for poor storytelling. Honestly now, completely ignoring the cannon debate and everything. When/how did they establish significance in Atris' feelings for Exile? Or context? i may very well be missing something since i seem to be unique in not finding any in-game reference to it telling me the player should care about her attraction for male Exile, nor why i should care (care as in have it be brought to my attention and made to feel it is significant). [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Oh, get off it! How is Atton's relationship weaker than Brianna's, Atris', or Visas'? It isn't. So there. Well... how can I possibly counter eloquent argumentation like that... LOL You can't unless you resort to the same tactics i used. i dare you... The Exile mentions several times that she will be breaking her vow to Atris if she accepts training, so clearly it was a signficant point to him. And it is important because of the ties to Atris, which can scarcely be said to be immaterial. Do you mean when Brianna is undergoing the Jedification? i thought he asked if she was sure about it once. Maybe twice depending on the dialogue choices. Could be wrong though. But didn't Exile ask everyone if they are certain? And aren't they lectured too? My memory on that is vague. But insofar as the ties to Atris are concerned, aren't you now emphasizing the point that Brianna is important because of how she ties in to Atris? Or should i not have asked that? [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Brianna's parents have a direct tie to Malachor V. She had little to do with it other than the personal impact of her mother being presumed dead and her father being broken. Yusanis had nothing to do with Exile personally. No, but he sure did with Revan. Yup. Sure did. Yet when i said that about Atton's relevance in the plot you propmtly told me that that is Revan and not Exile. So, which is it? i prefer to think Revan is important, but to support that Atton isn't than Revan has to be discounted. But alas, that then weakens Brianna's significance too... What to do? What to do?!? Nah, i'm just riling you. But let me know once you decide... :ph34r: Kreia mentions them, too, and Mical doesn't remember them all. Ayup. He doesn't. Kreia doesn't even list them though as far as i can remember. But what does that matter? Mical gives information on the Republic, the Jedi, the Mandalorian Wars, on Revan, and other things. And he tells it from a different perspective than Kreia. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] And other than Kae having been one of Revan's masters, Kae is completely irrelevant to Exile (unless Exile is responsible for her death). Funny how earlier you state that Atton is irrelevant because he only brings insight about Revan, yet Brianna's mother is important eventhough she was only one of Revan's masters. Why is there such a bias between them? I never said that Kae was significant in this context, so you'll have to answer that assumption yourself. Nor did I say Atton was irrelevant (in fact, I said the opposite). I just said that he was not more significant than certain other characters and that his romance option with the female Exile took away from the story. i'll have to look up the earlier posts and check that out. Too sleepy to do it now. *grumble* all this thinking*grumble* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krookie Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Female. Why? Simple. Revan was male. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Female. Why? Simple. Revan was male. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very compelling argument there Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Blivion Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Revan is male?! If he is, wouldn't the databanks have at least one definitive background for him? And as for the Exile's "canonical" setting? Without getting into long winded posts, I'd much prefer the male Exile over the female. A more sensible story is built around the Male. Why would the female Exile fall in love with Sion or vice versa? It's plot lines like these that make the male Exile a lot more appealing. Atris/Male Exile relationship is all the reason there is, as to why a Male Exile is more fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xard Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Yes Revan IS LSM How can it be a no ob build. It has PROVEN effective. I dare you to show your builds and I will tear you apart in an arugment about how these builds will won them. - OverPowered Godzilla (OPG) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) [Hekate]Subjective certainly, and arbitrally assigning worth to the female romance option characters and dismissing those same criteria entirely for the males. i'll use your own quotes to illustrate how you are discriminantly juxtaposing value of these criteria. Oh, come off it. I could make just the same accusation against you. Why is it somehow illegal for me to explain why I prefer the male Exile's story? It's a matter of opinion and not something that can be "proven" in any way. [Hekate]and how was Atris' love any different? She reacted the exact same way to all Exile incarnations. Male Exile does not find out how she came to care for him, nor what occured between them. It was just as convoluted, underexplained, and unsatisfactory as Sion's was. If an unexplained reason for loving the player character is reason enough to discount it than Atris must be discounted too. I don't agree with that. Atris actually lets it slip during your conversation with her in the Telos Academy, so even if lies beneath the surface most of the time, the Handmaiden pretty much says it out loud. Kreia comes close too. Atris: "There was much about that day that was difficult to forget - your words, your defiance - and when you stabbed your lightsaber into the center stone. I have kept it - so I would never forget.I have always kept it, as a reminder of what can happen when your passions dictate your actions.I have kept it, so I would never forget your arrogance or your insult to the Order.I suspected as much. You cared nothing for the trappings of the Jedi... and you cared nothing for the Order, even on that final day you came before us.So... you would fight me for it? You are not far removed from the monster who left the Order so long ago.Then you misunderstand its meaning while it is in my possession - and what it now represents. It is not yours. It is a symbol of something greater, which you no longer represent.Become a Jedi again? That is a thing far out of reach. But I am not unsympathetic to your feelings. Leaving the Order must have been difficult for you.Yet you gave the Council no other choice. You gave me no other choice.And you were ruled by hate and aggression! That is not the way of a Jedi!So your choice was to meet the aggression of the Mandalorians with more aggression? That is not the Jedi way!Every choice we make, whether we know it or not, sends echoes through the Force. It can awaken feelings, ignite passions, hate, anger, fear - where none existed before." Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." It's right there, if we care to look for it. [Hekate]Where did this come from? Tell me your joking. Are you honestly suggesting KotORs would have been better with only a pre-determined sex as a lead? Not only does that limit player choice, that forces the in-game story line to be even more linear. i enjoyed played both male and female incarnations of Revan and Exile. i certainly would not want to have no choice. That is just sad The more you have established a character in your plot, the more you can do with that character. Since the Exile has to remain both genders in the overall plot, that means that there are some things that are not possible. For example, the majority of NPCs must remain oblivious to the Exile's gender, because it is undetermined what it is. Instead, all romance options must be very specific and plotted carefully to match the player's choice. [Hekate]Leia didn't get captured by them, no, no. Instead she got the incredibly empowering role of standing by and watching the Ewoks attempt to bar-b-que Luke & co after her little yelp that was supposed to be a protest: "But they're my friends". I'd add an exclamation mark, but that would be misleading. Luke uses his wit to get them out of the situation. No, he had the force, which is really a big advantage. And no, Leia wasn't captured. She saved Wicket's life and then decided to go with him. Not captured at all. She was free to leave whenever she wanted. It was when she began interfering with the captives that the Ewoks objected. [Hekate]Leia was oninously silent during the attempted roast (or maybe she just had a hankering to have some Han?) More humiliating would be Leia in the 'slave girl' outfit and chains being forced to let Jabba fondle her. Worse by a long shot. You seem to read a lot into that thong, but it is pretty humiliating for the guys to be captured like that too. But feel free to disagree all you want... [Hekate]That fleeting yet blissful moment wherein we agreed that KotOR II with a well writen story with a female as the lead is a good thing. You make it sound as if there can be "progress" only if I agree with you. In that case you're in for a disappointment. Besides agreeing that KotOR II was well written and that a female lead is good are two different things. I thought K2 was well written for the male Exile, but not the female Exile. I also think that a female lead need in no way need make a game "bad". I do not agree that having a female lead will by itself be a good thing, though - that's just misplaced sexism, since it suggests female leads are by definition somehow "better" better than male leads. [Hekate]So, in the light of the above paragraph, Mical's discoveries are significant pertaining to his character development, to the overall story, and to Exile since he explains his discoveries to her. Brianna's past is relevant to her character development and to a lesser degree to the overall plot. That would be how they have previously been compared. So to explain the reasoning behind my quote in red, i was refering specifically to how Mical brought plot relevance to Exile and to the player whereas Brianna could not by the virtue of her not being privy to such information. She knew of Atris' love for the Exile and asks him about it, thereby making it clear that he is aware of it. The only way that is not relevant to the overall plot is if Atris is not an important character, and that is not the case. Atris leaked the information about the meeting on Katarr to the Sith. Atris arranged for the Exile's return so that he/she would be a target for the Sith that would make them reveal themselves. Atris is the chief manipulator staging events early in the plot. There is no way she is not essential to the evolving plot. [Hekate]Using that argument though throws the whole Atris romance option out since all of it occurs without Exile knowing. Not so. Look at the quotes above, particular the Handmaiden's. [Hekate]i concur it is difficult to pretend the character doesn't know when the player does. Some of the Exile-free scenes added some info about Exile to the plzayer that wasn't a gapping plot hole without it, such as when Atton asks Kreia why Exile is so un-Jedi-like at Telos. But then the others, where plot relevant things Exile should know but get unceremoniously dumped onto the player with no reference base... yikes. The example that comes to mind is when Atton asks Kreia about Dxun's significance and suddenly we're told Exile fought there and it was the last stronghold of the Mandalorians. Hun? That and the introduction to Bao-Dur are among some of the worst parts of the game. It's okay that things are kept from me as a player, but not if they are things that my character clearly knows, while I do not. How the heck am I supposed to identify with *my* character if I'm not allowed to know him?!? [Hekate]Sure. But that isn't Mical's fault so why hold that against him and use that as a reason to disregard his worth as a character? Not saying it is, but it still hurts his significance as a character. Because what use it that he can figure these things out if they are not allowed to impact the plot? [Hekate]You don't hold it against Mira she ran around in the Jek'Jek'Tar in the spacesuit to go visit Visquis eventhough Exile ain't got a clue what is going on, do you? Exile is unconscious at the time. Can't get much more disengaged than that.. other than through death... Not a part of the main plot, and the Exile is presumed to find out about it just afterwards anyway. You can make just the same argument for Atton's fight with the twi'lek sisters, with T3's adventures in the warehouse, with the opening of the attempt to rescue the Exile from GOTO's yacht, and with the assault on Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun... We never hear anyone telling the Exile about these things, but it is presumed that he/she learns of them. [Hekate]Yes Mical does. He says there is a correlation in the worlds Revan targetted and all that technical stuff and says Revan was attempting to unite the galaxy and not conquer it. In fact, he's the fisrt person in the game to make that observation. Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks." Not saying it with any certainly, just conjecture. It may be compelling, but even so, it is not stated as fact. And he certainly doesn't say that Revan saved the republic by that action. You can just as easily read into it that Revan just knew the strategic value of Onderon and chose to not attack it on that basis, so that he could use its position to his own ends later. In fact, that is probably precisely what Revan intended in the coming conflict with the true Sith. That Onderon was unharmed therefore becomes a side-effect of Revan's long-term goals, and because of any benevolent intentions on Revan's part. And why would he have such intentions anyway? He was the dark lord of the Sith at the time... [Hekate]The thread about whether Exile is a Force leech or a Force siphon. On one hand the Jedi Masters claim Exile is responsible for the Sith's leeching abilities or that they learned it from Exile, but on the other, they claim Exile is a leech therefore logic would dictate one cannot add to something when one is taking away from it. The question of how, if Exile is a wound in the Force, can Exile even use the Force... All those lovely discrepancies within the Masters' own words and also in Kreia's. With Mical, it was relaxingly clear for once. Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... [Hekate]That isn't taking in the whole picture though. He obviously thinks there is some chance since he took the risk of asking Bao-Dur about it. i also cannot see what magician's hat you pulled the notion of his loving her on an idealized and platonic level from. Kreia: "Atton is, as always, the fool. And the Force watches out for ones such as him, I feel. As it does for the old such as I. There is no love left in a heart such as that one. But he would die for you, yes." [Hekate]He has little love for Jedi, and he sees them as having their hands as stained in blood as the Sith. He also states Jedi are hypocrits, untrustworthy, and goes as far as saying they deserved what they got at Malachor V. That is pretty brutal, raw, and definitely not putting her on a pedestal of being an indomitable icon. He even confronts her with asking her how can she live with herself. He aims bellow the belt. i would hardly call that ideolizing her. Atton is a very complicated person. Ah, but Atton has no choice but to see it that way if he is to live with himself, does he? I mean, if he's wrong, then what he has done is inexcusable, and though the Exile might - as Kreia puts it - forgive him for it, Atton would never be able to forgive himself. So he shifts the blame. It wasn't his fault - it was the jedi's fault. He lies to himself, but that is the only way he can bear to live, since he would be consumed by his own guilt if he didn't insist on keeping it at arms length like this. [Hekate]i really think you're way off on the Eowyn-Aragorn comparisson there. But even the much revered Jediphile with Revan-like qualities can make mistakes from time to time Sure I can. This is not one of them, though What Atton sees in the female Exile is someone who has done something terrible (like himself), but who may atone and be redeemed in spite of her crimes. She is an ideal, because if she can be redeemed, then maybe - just maybe - he can too. But it's just a hope - he doesn't believe it himself. And I'm not sure how aware he is of it all himself. It may all well take place entirely on Atton's subconscious levels, given all the terrors of his past that he is constantly fleeing from. [Hekate]And what's this about him loving specifically because she is close to perfection? It's not as if one has a choice over whom one loves. In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile [Hekate]He didn't see her and put all his bagage aside and come up with this non-sensible notion of her reflecting perfection. Brianna though, has had much time to hear Atris' thoughts on Exile, and she has had the opportunity to develop some preconceived notions about Exile based on Atris' tellings and a long time for her curiosity to grow. She knows Exile disturbs Atris, gets under her skin in a personal way that no one else can. And that she finds compelling. Like a moth to flame made irrisistable with her exisisting curiosity about and a longing for becoming a Jedi. To an extent. But what really draws Brianna to the male Exile, I think, is what she projects onto him of her lost father. [Hekate]you just wait... you'll get yours Promises, promises... " No, but we don't know why that is for the female Exile whereas it is obvious for the male Exile, and that hurts the credibility of the female Exile's plot. [Hekate]How is it obvious for the male Exile? Just by virtue of him being male? No, by virtue of Atris letting it slip to the Exile and more so the Handmaiden sisters and by Brianna telling the Exile. We may not know what specifically made Atris fall in love with the Exile, but given the long years of training he went through in her proximity, it is easy to accept that something might have taken place between them. It may even be explained just by virtue of the Exile's forcebonding abilities, which ties people to him even without his knowledge. [Hekate]Well then Sion doesn't need any motivation either since of course, female Exile is female. The difference is that Sion and Exile have no connection - they are complete strangers to each other, whereas the Exile and Atris has known each other for long years. That leaves little or no room for Sion to fall in love with the female Exile, but plenty for Atris to fall in love with the male Exile. [Hekate]How is the unknown explanation of why Atris loves male Exile more compelling than the unknown reason of why Atris respects and admires all Exile incarnations? Just because it is a romance plot? Is respecting someone genuinely more difficult to fathom than loving someone? i'd say in daily life respecting comes more often than loving on the whole. Respect is earned through the observations you make about other people, and those are always tied to specific events or But those are unknown to us, and so leaves the story stranded. Love is a feeling, however, and feelings often just are with little or no explanation. I find it entirely believable that Atris may have developed feeling that she did not intend toward the Exile during their long years serving together at the Academy. [Hekate]My bad for not being clear enough. What i meant was does anyone consider the fact she falls for Exile to be questionable, as opposed to what are her motives for falling for him. Same goes for Visas and Atris since all the male romantic interests have already been sufficiently put into question... (did i say that? Naughty me...) I've already answered this above. [Hekate]So slaughtering an entire Sandpeople Village was right of him then? IIRC, he did that before Padme gave in to pursuing their sexual relationship. No, but Anakin just lost his mother. That's a pretty strong relationship. Is it unreasonable that he should feel angry over the sandpeople murdering her? [Hekate]But i will concede to the point i exagerated when i said she had nothing to do with it since obviously his feelings for her added pressure and turmoil to his already tenuous grasp on his self-control. That was a rather silly thing to say in retrospect. But i do maintain she did not actively participate in his DS turning. That was all his own doing. I never meant to imply that it was somehow Padme's fault. It wasn't. She was completely unaware of it. That didn't stop Anakin (and Palpatine) from using her as a catalyst to bring about Anakin's fall. But Padme cannot be blamed for it. It's Anakin's fault. How can he possibly expect her to love him after he murdered defenseless children? Pretty silly, but he did expect it, which tells us much of how deluded an individual he had become. [Hekate]Visas has incredible mental endurance. Far beyond what most people have. Few could survive what she did. However she was in many ways very weak. That is not an insult nor berating, it is an indesputable fact of severe psychological trauma. That even when completely out of Nihilus' grasp she still needed to define herself by servitude substituting her tormentor shows she is stuck in very unhealthy patterns and she has alot of work to do. Again, her weaknesses are not in anyway diminishing her worth as a character. It adds complexity to her character, yet it also simplifies Exile's ability to understand her, her motivations, and her actions. That is why in a previous post i wrote her actions are relatively simple to understand. When she swore her loyalty to Exile: my life for yours, i took her to mean it at face value. Someone who has absolutely nothing to lose and is abused as she was by Nihilus, yet also sees no value in life and believes all life is ugly and should die... there is no reason for her to lie about anything. Judging by the cut-scene when they are first introduced on the Ravager, she pretty much has already given up and is alive only because Nihilus wills it. When we first meet Visas, she is, in spite of her strengths, broken upon Nihilus' will. But I'm not sure if the Exile understands her, and even if the Exile does, you know I have my own speculations about why that is, which have to do with the ties between the Exile and Nihilus. Once Visas confronts the Exile, however, Nihilus' control over her is broken, and becomes far more determined and self-aware. And she becomes dedicated to the goal of destroying Nihilus, so that other worlds will not suffer the same fate as Katarr. Visas is willing to destroy herself in the pursuit of that goal, because in some ways she feels guilt over having survived when all others on Katarr died. [Hekate]Atris seems rather weak to me though since she couldn't even master her feelings, and she is supposed to be a Jedi master. Hun. Atris being manipulative, backstabbing and a generally unpleasantly demeanoured person who had to set-up an entourage of non-threatening admirers and servants for her to feel superior is quite weak as well. As the game plays out, and one sees how Atris treats the Handmaidens and how she dispatches them, is indicative of her shallow character. Yes, she has a certain complexity as well though, but i do not find that does much to make up for her shortcomings. She is also weak because she is too afraid to look the truth right in the eye and she hides from in using a shield of hate and of being the victim rather than the perpetrator. If one finds her more compelling and worthy as a romantic interest than any of the male options for female Exile, meh, so be it. Atris is strong-willed, but her convictions have been perverted as her true self has been slowly eroded under the strain the sith holocrons have subjected her to. Like Boromir, she tried to use the power of the enemy against the enemy and instead fell as a consequence of her presumption to be able to control it. The change is subtle, however, and Atris was too blind and proud to see the danger. However, what I like about the male Exile's plot is that he may inadvertently have caused her initial fall, when she was unsure of her feelings and began lying to herself in order to maintain her sense of self. In doing so she made herself proud and aloof - above such simple feelings as love. It's a lie, of course, and one that the sith holocrons then exploit to cause her fall. [Hekate]And here is where i find the discrepancy of how the weighing of the merrit of a character's complexity and worth as a potential love interest becomes disturbing. Bao-Dur is single handedly responsible for creating and then activating the mass shadow generator. He killed millions (?) with his own hands at the trigger. He made that weapon of mass destruction possible. That is one hell of a burden to live with. Close to the opposite of what Visas must endure. He carries all that same pain Exile does, albeit differently, and he has the added buren of guilt. Exile gave the order, but it is Bao-Dur who carried it out. And he faces what he has done. Not only that, he wishes to set things as right as he can for what he has done. Atris hides in her academy, scheming with delusions she is still a Jedi and she hasn't fallen. Bao-Dur works for Telos and the Ithorians, and he even wreaks a little havok with Czerka. He maintains ethics even through ghastly experiences. He is strong, complex, and compelling as a character. But the player has no clue about Malachor V in any substantial way until late in the game when Bao-Dur speaks of it in more detail through recounting his dream. It is eluded to, but not explained. He has many waring emotional factions within himself, which he is dealing with as a constant. That he is doing something productive in and of itself is remarkable. He has a very complex psyche, and the fact he can't do anything about the General having an effect on him despite his wishing it otherwise and actively fighting that inclination is compelling. He also forces Exile to stop hiding and face reality with Exile being told it is time for her/him to construct her/his lightsabre. I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. [Hekate]Now the question is if attraction detracts from his and female Exile's relationship. i look at it this way, their attraction does not take away from what they have shared, nor does it diminish them as individuals. It doesn't minimize nor trivialize their friendship based relationship either. Female Exile and Bao-Dur have the same under current as male Exile and Bao-Dur. Yes, but a presumed romance complicates things, and that is not a quality for Bao-Dur for the reasons given above. [Hekate]The second point about female Exile being potentially repulsed is moot since Exile could be potentially put off by any and/or all of them. And if she does get horrified it doesn't prevent it from being meaningful. It is heartbreaking. The possibility is there in either case, but for the male Exile it can all pertain only to Malachor V in the context of the "warbuddy" relationship. There is no attraction to confuse the issue, and so it remains clear what the subject of discussion is. I prefer it that way. [Hekate]Male Exile could be potentially repulsed by Atris. She did some very evil things but she didn't have the greater good as a motivation to have done so. Does that mean only mutually reciprocated attractions are worth anything? You're *supposed* to be repulsed by Atris. If not sooner, the Exile will be once he/she learns that she was the one who leaked the knowledge of the Jedi meeting on Katarr to the Sith. For Atris, it's only a matter of time before you're repulsed. Bao-Dur is not supposed to repulse you, however, since he will be essential to the choice you must later make on Malachor V (well, in the LS ending, anyway). [Hekate]Lemme get this straight. Atris, whose tie to Exile we don't know, and Brianna, who's personal link to Exile is through Atris, have more personal relevance to Exile than Mical whom we are certain has been taught by Exile and who was supposed to become her padawan. This should be good... You keep insisting that the male Exile knows nothing of Atris' feelings for him, yet as I've shown clearly above, that is not correct. Atris is essential to how the plot unfolds. That is a fact. Mical is not, however, because he doesn't add anything that you cannot learn from other sources. You may think he explains things better or sooner than other characters, but that still doesn't make his presence essential. Also, as I've said several times now, Brianna has ties to the Exile through her parents. I will retain the right to continue to point that out as long as you continue to ignore and/or dismiss it. So Mical was supposed to become the Exile's padawan. So what? The Exile is also suggested to have been destined to be trained by Kavar. Does that give Kavar special significance in the story? No, it doesn't. It's just an interesting little piece of information. It does not give Kavar any more or less significance in the plot. [Hekate] IIRC, which i indeed may not be, Bastila had that super cool battle meditation which guaranteed her padawanship regardless of her lack of self-control and her haughtiness. i am not sure though whether she told Carth on Taris in KotOR her battle meditation hadn't manifested itself yet or hadn't fully manifested itself yet by the time Revan joined the Mandalorian Wars. Even if not, isn't really too relevant. Mical has never lied at any other point. The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... Well, excuse me for pointing out gaping plot holes... I shall endeavour not to do such heinous acts in the future But it's interesting that you should bring up "blatant Brianna fanboyism". Given how much thought you give to the subject, clearly it would be completely unreasonable to suspect you of "blatant Mical fangirlism"... " Methinks thou doth protest too strongly... [Hekate]When i asked him, he was on the Ebon Hawk and it was right before the end-game rush of Dantooine. Hence it would indicate he is still actively working on his mission. There also is no indication he doesn't keep it up either. But no indication to the contrary either. And in any event, it has no impact or consequence to the game's plot whatsoever. We can assume or suppose whatever we want about it, because it just doesn't matter. [Hekate]Didn't question the rules because he is a more quiet person by nature, it would seem, who sees the value in respecting 'da rulz'. And he was a kid. He admired and respected Exile, had a thing for her as many youth do for people older than themselves but not old who mentor them, and she left a deep impression on him. Was it love at that age? Maybe. i did use the term love earlier, i am aware. i used it to simplify, which is, of course, comming back to kick me now. But oh well, c'est la vie. If he just sat around for all those years pining for the Exile, then I don't think that is so much romantic as just sad... He was no longer in the jedi order, so he could actually have gone to look for her, but nooooo... Yes, that obviously makes for good characterization [Hekate]My, my. Atton slaggin' time. Alright, i'll play too. Atton was simple because he had a complicated history. No, that doesn't work. Hmm... Atton is simple because he seems laid back and carefree but is always on his guard and very perceptive. That doesn't work either... Seems i'm not so good at this game. Seriously now, anyone who can keep track of everyone's business as well as galactic business, learns new skills faster than Einstein on speed, has a multitude of difficult to learn skills, is a social chameleon, can put up resistance to Kreia, has switched loyalties a few times and his own identity, and can read situations better than anyone else on the crew is not a simple character. His very thought process is fascinating. But the very fact he is constantly thinking subversively means he has developed a sub-level thought process that goes on under the surface, as is seen with mulit-tasking. He doesn't see things in cut and dry terms, he sees between the obvious. He can be callous and he can be caring. All that and my previous post point towards the "not simple" argument. But every character can be reduced the status of simple with enough simplifying. You seem to see the word "complex" as meaning having a deep history. However, that is not quite right. Complex: A: 1. Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts; composite. 2. Composed of two or more units: a complex carbohydrate. B: Involved or intricate, as in structure; complicated. Atton has a long and massive history, but that does not make him a complex person. He is not "interconnected" or "interwoven" by many parts. All he has become can be traced back to his experiences while he worked for the sith. It's a long story. It's a deep story. But once you know it, you understand who and what Atton is now, for better or worse, and his choices and motives will no longer surprise you. And as I've said before, "simple" does not mean "idiotic" or "half-witted". And cut the sarcasm - it's not your strong point. It is also distracting from the issue at hand, and may therefore be contrued as an attempt to subvert the discussion, which I doubt is your intention. [Hekate]Oh, BTW, i felt the term fool fit quite appropriately to Atton in the historical context. When i think of the Shakespearean fool and the fool of the tarot, that is a fairly decent representation of Atton. And the fool is not foolish nor simple. Fools moves to the beat of their own drum and learn alot on the way. They are smart and versatile, but have their own slew of bagage. Sounds like Atton. Now I'm wondering how you'll explain Kreia calling Atton an "imbecile" really means that she praises his intellect and how he's the deepest and most perceptive person alive... [Hekate]Hun? Kreia figured him out in seconds? No, i don't think so. (Are we playing the same game?) Kreia was a former Jedi Master and Sith Lord. She needed to work on getting into his mind since he resisted her. And how long did that take her? It was not a true struggle, no. The spider had the fly in its web. There was no escape. Yet the spider was amused by the fly's futile attempts to resist and free it self. It played with the fly for its own dark amusement for a moment, revelling in the terror of its victim. But then the delight passed, and the spider got to work on its helpless victim, which then promptly succumbed... [Hekate]Not bad for a non-Force trained person, whereas not even the Jedi Masters knew she was messing with their minds. She didn't. She hid from them until she was content to reveal herself. Besides, if she messed with their minds, she would have abandoned one of her goals, which was to justify her own teachings to them. Kreia joins the meeting with the masters because she wants to present the Exile as evidence of her philosophies. She did hope until the last that she could justify herself and make them see her point. It's when they refuse that their fates are sealed. Assuming LS ending, that - since otherwise the masters are dead and the point is moot. [Hekate]Do you mean when Brianna is undergoing the Jedification? i thought he asked if she was sure about it once. Maybe twice depending on the dialogue choices. Could be wrong though. But didn't Exile ask everyone if they are certain? And aren't they lectured too? My memory on that is vague. But insofar as the ties to Atris are concerned, aren't you now emphasizing the point that Brianna is important because of how she ties in to Atris? Or should i not have asked that? No, that's fine. Only I already answered it above. [Hekate]Yup. Sure did. Yet when i said that about Atton's relevance in the plot you propmtly told me that that is Revan and not Exile. So, which is it? i prefer to think Revan is important, but to support that Atton isn't than Revan has to be discounted. But alas, that then weakens Brianna's significance too... What to do? What to do?!? Nah, i'm just riling you. But let me know once you decide... :ph34r: You were the one to introduce the idea that the plots must have direct consequence to the Exile and so that he/she is aware of too, so you'll have to answer that question yourself. You did that so you could dismiss the significance of Brianna in the plot compared to Mical. Do you regret that now? [Hekate]Ayup. He doesn't. Kreia doesn't even list them though as far as i can remember. But what does that matter? Mical gives information on the Republic, the Jedi, the Mandalorian Wars, on Revan, and other things. And he tells it from a different perspective than Kreia. Still amounts to pretty much the same thing in my book... Edited May 12, 2006 by Jediphile Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinokono Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Ok, I am a male gamer, but I feel that the story felt more "correct" with a female, I think that there was kind of a "mother daughter thing going on between kreia and the exile, as well as a jealous sister aspect with atris, and as for the romance (that was totally cut from the game) u had not only disciple, but Atton AND Bao Dur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 ... and you just knew who Kreia was referring to when she mentioned Atton's "base lusts, certain... indignities" DAWUSS Dawes ain't too bright. Hitting rock bottom is when you leave 2 tickets on the dash of your car, leave it unlocked hoping someone will steal them & when you come back, there are 4 tickets on your dashboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galassia Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 I am a female gamer, and for KOTOR I really preferred the Storyline of the male, while the little romance between Revan and Carth was a bit funny at times, Bastilla and Revan's was much more believeable. But outside of the romance terms, the male story of KOTOR just worked for me better. However, for KOTOR II, I really found the female better. I've played the game countless times with both male and female Exiles, and the female Exile was much more believable to me. The conversation between your party members was more interesting and for me at least the storyline flows better with the female Exile. Oh and for the record, I know a lot more female Star Wars fans than male. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekate Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 (edited) Why would the female Exile fall in love with Sion or vice versa? We don't know. That is the point of contention. [Jediphile]Oh, come off it. I could make just the same accusation against you. Why is it somehow illegal for me to explain why I prefer the male Exile's story? It's a matter of opinion and not something that can be "proven" in any way. i had put effort into not contradicting my points. i re-read previous posts pertaining to the issue at hand specifically to stay consistent. i am certain i have made errors; however; i do believe i have been able to carry through the arguments i have been making logically and cohesively. i also have been consciously attempting to weigh wether my disagreeing with a point is because i want to make sure 'my side wins' (= bad), or wether i honestly believe it should be contested (= good). That having been said; i truly am sorry for making you feel speaking your mind is negative. It honestly wasn't my intent at all. But i guess as they say, intent isn't worth anything so all i can do is try to fix the problem. It isn't in the least bad or wrong for anyone to explain why they believe whichever Exile rendition they think should be cannon. [Hekate]and how was Atris' love any different? She reacted the exact same way to all Exile incarnations. Male Exile does not find out how she came to care for him, nor what occured between them. It was just as convoluted, underexplained, and unsatisfactory as Sion's was. If an unexplained reason for loving the player character is reason enough to discount it than Atris must be discounted too. [Jediphile]I don't agree with that. Atris actually lets it slip during your conversation with her in the Telos Academy, so even if lies beneath the surface most of the time, the Handmaiden pretty much says it out loud. Kreia comes close too. Atris: "There was much about that day that was difficult to forget - your words, your defiance - and when you stabbed your lightsaber into the center stone. I have kept it - so I would never forget.I have always kept it, as a reminder of what can happen when your passions dictate your actions.I have kept it, so I would never forget your arrogance or your insult to the Order.I suspected as much. You cared nothing for the trappings of the Jedi... and you cared nothing for the Order, even on that final day you came before us.So... you would fight me for it? You are not far removed from the monster who left the Order so long ago.Then you misunderstand its meaning while it is in my possession - and what it now represents. It is not yours. It is a symbol of something greater, which you no longer represent.Become a Jedi again? That is a thing far out of reach. But I am not unsympathetic to your feelings. Leaving the Order must have been difficult for you.Yet you gave the Council no other choice. You gave me no other choice.And you were ruled by hate and aggression! That is not the way of a Jedi!So your choice was to meet the aggression of the Mandalorians with more aggression? That is not the Jedi way!Every choice we make, whether we know it or not, sends echoes through the Force. It can awaken feelings, ignite passions, hate, anger, fear - where none existed before." This the first conversation she has with Exile. i just replayed from an old save and it is the exact same conversation she has with a female Exile. Her statement of "I have always kept it, as a reminder of what can happen when your passions dictate your actions." can be interpreted as her refering to Exile's passions for having gone off to fight in the war as opposed to her own passions for Exile. Even with male Exile and with the attraction between them, i heard it that way. Not to say the other isn't valid though. Directly after that confrontation, Handmaiden asks Atris if she is alright and why Exile has such a strong effect on her and Atris answers (minor paraphrasing since it went too fast to write it down) "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside". That is as close as it gets to establishing Atris' backstory with Exile in the sense of what is going on between them and why. From that statement, the player is with left only with the knowledge Atris looked up to Exile as a hero and she cared for Exile deep enough to still be affected by it 10 years later. [Jediphile]Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." It's right there, if we care to look for it. The upper portion describing how Atris is upset by Exile holds true for either sex of Exile as the previous paragraph emphasizes. Though i'm not saying there isn't the potential for romantic subtext. Brianna asking if Exile and Atris were involved; however; when i played through as male Exile, seemed to stem from her feelings for Exile, her curiosity about him and the Jedi culture revolving around love. Brianna seems to be a very self-oriented person in the sense of she relates to things and people by how she preceives and feels about things herself rather than what others may think and feel (not meant as an insult). So her asking if Exile cared for Atris romantically those 10 years ago as Jedi doesn't necessarily prove Atris feels that way about Exile though it does add credence to that argument. Does Atris herself ever tell male Exile she loves him? To clarify; there is no snarkiness intended, i honestly can't remember her doing so. Sion tells female Exile directly she is a presence in his mind, that he hates her because he finds her beautiful, and female Exile has the option in the dialogue of replying with "you are a presence in my mind as well" or similar. i do not recall anything direct like that occuring between Atris and male Exile. That is why i am asking if anyone does. If there isn't, then there is more direct Exile to Sion 'romance' than there is Exile to Atris 'romance'. The only reason i refer to Exile-Sion as romance is because he reacts differently to female Exile than male Exile. From what i recall, Atris does not. [Hekate]Leia didn't get captured by them, no, no. Instead she got the incredibly empowering role of standing by and watching the Ewoks attempt to bar-b-que Luke & co after her little yelp that was supposed to be a protest: "But they're my friends". I'd add an exclamation mark, but that would be misleading. Luke uses his wit to get them out of the situation. [Jediphile]No, he had the force, which is really a big advantage. And no, Leia wasn't captured. She saved Wicket's life and then decided to go with him. Not captured at all. She was free to leave whenever she wanted. It was when she began interfering with the captives that the Ewoks objected. He used his ingenuity to come up with the idea of levitating C3-PO, it was a clever idea. Whereas Leia stood by and had nothing to add after her initial protest. i was agreeing Leia wasn't captured by them. Infact, that she wasn't captured and did so little to attempt to help them is the weakness i was speaking of. [Jediphile]You seem to read a lot into that thong, but it is pretty humiliating for the guys to be captured like that too. But feel free to disagree all you want... It wouldn't matter if every single one of the those captured by the Ewoks were female and if it was Luke who was enslaved by Jabba instead. In that case Luke's predicament would have been more humiliating, moreso if he was forced to wear only a codpiece. Luke actively prevented Han from getting violent with the Ewoks so their capture was not from them being incompetent. Luke could lift the massive door into Jabba's place so certainly he could have knocked all the Ewoks on their butts if he had wanted to. It shouldn't be overly personally humiliating for them to have been captured in that way when they allowed it to happen. Being tied up and carried on a pole is humiliating, but Leia was chained around her neck, treated as a slave, and as a sexual object. That is more humiliating, especially with a crowd of unsavoury spectators to gawk and leer and her humiliation lasted longer than theirs. As far as the thong goes... it is a point of contention for me. It was not so much that it was in there as opposed to its execution. And it is a repeated theme in the SW universe i've been exposed to and i find it irksome. [Hekate]That fleeting yet blissful moment wherein we agreed that KotOR II with a well writen story with a female as the lead is a good thing. [Jediphile]You make it sound as if there can be "progress" only if I agree with you. In that case you're in for a disappointment. Besides agreeing that KotOR II was well written and that a female lead is good are two different things. I thought K2 was well written for the male Exile, but not the female Exile. I also think that a female lead need in no way need make a game "bad". I do not agree that having a female lead will by itself be a good thing, though - that's just misplaced sexism, since it suggests female leads are by definition somehow "better" better than male leads. i meant that KotOR II with a well writen female Exile lead would be a good story as something we agree on since we already agree on KotOR II with a well writen male Exile would be a good story. i never said a female lead just for the hell of it is a good thing either. Just look at alot of the tripe out there with female leads and it becomes quite apparent. As far as the female bias is concerned, suggesting there should be more strong female leads is not suggesting females are better. It is suggesting people are exposed to a significant imbalance in the female to male strong lead ratio. Again, to clarify, i am not suggesting there has to be and equal amount. Nor am i suggesting strong male leads should be sacrificed in the pursuit of improving representation. The already massive amounts of strong male leads will not be somehow damaged nor reduced in significance should more strong female leads be added to the roster. [Jediphile]She knew of Atris' love for the Exile and asks him about it, thereby making it clear that he is aware of it. The only way that is not relevant to the overall plot is if Atris is not an important character, and that is not the case. Atris leaked the information about the meeting on Katarr to the Sith. Atris arranged for the Exile's return so that he/she would be a target for the Sith that would make them reveal themselves. Atris is the chief manipulator staging events early in the plot. There is no way she is not essential to the evolving plot. In the passage you quoted earlier, Jediphile, Brianna does not say Atris loved Exile. It states Brianna sees how Atris is affected by Exile, not why. It is suggestive, but not direct. She even has to ask Exile if he and Atris were involved since she herself doesn't know. In the earlier argument about Brianna's relevance to the plot, her revealing Atris loves Exile would be significant, but she didn't. Therefore Brianna's significance is what was stated in earlier posts. [Jediphile]That and the introduction to Bao-Dur are among some of the worst parts of the game. It's okay that things are kept from me as a player, but not if they are things that my character clearly knows, while I do not. How the heck am I supposed to identify with *my* character if I'm not allowed to know him?!? Exactly. Things are thrown in as "by the way..." and that really irks me. We would have no idea Exile taught younglings nor that Exile was to take on a padawan if it wasn't for Mical, and she didn't even recognize him!. i would say that is very significant since Exile leaving had a big impact on people in a personal way, which one would think a player should know about their own character. Exile is reduced to an oblivious and clueless character. With all these things thrown in in that fashion, it seems as if depth was attempted to be added as an afterthought. [Jediphile]Not saying it is, but it still hurts his significance as a character. Because what use it that he can figure these things out if they are not allowed to impact the plot? Good question. The reason i state what Mical brought to the plot about the echoes and their importance is because it brought that to the player. i was so lost about all that echoes and wound in the Force stuff. When i heard Mical talk about it with Kreia, it made sense. That didn't last long since the Jedi Masters and Kreia muck it all up again with their contradictions, but at least for that brief respite, i had that clarity. And the line of argument i was following with defending Mical's significance came from the standpoint of what a character brought to the overarcing storyline of the echoes and all that as a whole. [Jediphile]Not a part of the main plot, and the Exile is presumed to find out about it just afterwards anyway. You can make just the same argument for Atton's fight with the twi'lek sisters, with T3's adventures in the warehouse, with the opening of the attempt to rescue the Exile from GOTO's yacht, and with the assault on Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun... We never hear anyone telling the Exile about these things, but it is presumed that he/she learns of them. Yes. That was my point exactly about Mical. [Jediphile]Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks." That is not the only thing he has to say about Revan and the Jedi Civil War. He later speaks of how he thinks Revan seemed to be attempting to unite the galaxy. [Jediphile]Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... Well, bless me for being an idiot. [Hekate]That isn't taking in the whole picture though. He obviously thinks there is some chance since he took the risk of asking Bao-Dur about it. i also cannot see what magician's hat you pulled the notion of his loving her on an idealized and platonic level from. [Jediphile]Kreia: "Atton is, as always, the fool. And the Force watches out for ones such as him, I feel. As it does for the old such as I. There is no love left in a heart such as that one. But he would die for you, yes." Since when does what Kreia has to say about anybody carry such a huge significance? She states Visas cannot be trusted, Bao-Dur's thoughts are irrelevant just because she can't read them eventhough that is the first time Malachor V's impact is hinted at through his toughts, etc. Visas is loyal, Boa-Dur's thoughts are important, etc. And saying there is no love left in his heart is different than saying he loves her in an idealized way. According to Kreia, Atton doesn't love Exile at all. [Jediphile]Ah, but Atton has no choice but to see it that way if he is to live with himself, does he? I mean, if he's wrong, then what he has done is inexcusable, and though the Exile might - as Kreia puts it - forgive him for it, Atton would never be able to forgive himself. So he shifts the blame. It wasn't his fault - it was the jedi's fault. He lies to himself, but that is the only way he can bear to live, since he would be consumed by his own guilt if he didn't insist on keeping it at arms length like this. That adds to his complexity... And yeah, i do think he has a choice, and he opts to use it. i do not concur he places all the blame on the Jedi. What he did is inexcusable, and he knows it. He didn't say Revan made him torture Jedi, he says he enjoyed breaking them. And yes, he lies to himself, to everyone actually, but he also is honest with himself and others too, and these varrying forces being exerted on him as well as how he reacts to them are complex. i doubt very many people could look at Atton and know what he is thinking, nor could any given person know how he will respond to any given situation. He is a master at obscuring any sense of certainty people may feel they have in understanding him. That requires a multi-layered and difficult to understand thought process. He also states himself he hasn't known who he is for years. He is in constant psychological turmoil and he is trying to figure out who and what he wants to be. These are traits of complexity rather than simplicity. [Jediphile]What Atton sees in the female Exile is someone who has done something terrible (like himself), but who may atone and be redeemed in spite of her crimes. She is an ideal, because if she can be redeemed, then maybe - just maybe - he can too. But it's just a hope - he doesn't believe it himself. And I'm not sure how aware he is of it all himself. It may all well take place entirely on Atton's subconscious levels, given all the terrors of his past that he is constantly fleeing from. i doubt those thoughts are solely in his sub-conscious. They are probably all that keeps him going sometimes. My point was, even with thinking these things, he still sees the other side of it. He is fully aware nothing can erase the karmic burden of either of their pasts, thus, i don't think he is looking for redemption in the Jedi sense, and especially not for redemption through her. He full well knows becoming LS and staying there will not make up for the consequences of either of their actions. He wants her to love him for who he is right now, eventhough he isn't sure of who he is nor what he is. But if she does, he will have difficulty accepting it because he has difficulty accepting himself. That isn't to say he would necessarily reject it, because through it, he could very well find the means to heal. And maybe, just maybe, he could help her to heal too. That he experiences so many inner conflicts and he thinks about them on many different levels and in many different ways makes him a complex person. Many interwoven parts interacting with eachother in different ways and all. To add to his complexity, Atton has a derserter complex to boot. [Jediphile]In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile i don't have a problem with it. What i do have a problem with is when it is given more weight than anyone elses. [Jediphile]To an extent. But what really draws Brianna to the male Exile, I think, is what she projects onto him of her lost father. So Brianna has a father complex? i don't know. i'm sure it is possible, but i thought the similarity she saw between Exile and her father was the burden they carried. She is similar to her father with falling for a Jedi. But the most important thing to her about her father was to prove how she isn't a betrayer as he was. That is alot more about her than about Exile. [Jediphile]No, by virtue of Atris letting it slip to the Exile and more so the Handmaiden sisters and by Brianna telling the Exile. We may not know what specifically made Atris fall in love with the Exile, but given the long years of training he went through in her proximity, it is easy to accept that something might have taken place between them. It may even be explained just by virtue of the Exile's forcebonding abilities, which ties people to him even without his knowledge. The point of contention with regards to Sion's feelings for Exile was they were not explained. The player has no context of why he cares for her. i said the same is true for Atris. The player has no clue why Atris cares for Exile. One certainly can assume a great many reasons why she might however, we simply do not know. We do not know if they were in close proximity to eachother when Exile was on Dantooine, we do not know if they share a Force bond, we don't even know if she loves him at all unless someone can enlighten us on that. But even if she does, it is not given context either, so given Sion actually speaks with female Exile about his feelings whereas Atris does not speak to male Exile of hers, one cannot dismiss the significance of Sion's impact as a potential romantic involvement. And since weight is given to Atris' love by virtue of a possible lengthy time she and Exile knew eachother, than it is impossible to write off Mical's significance to Exile since his connection to her is actually revealed in-game. A padawan-Jedi relationship is a very significant one, from what i can tell. How is that not important and binding? [Jediphile]The difference is that Sion and Exile have no connection - they are complete strangers to each other, whereas the Exile and Atris has known each other for long years. That leaves little or no room for Sion to fall in love with the female Exile, but plenty for Atris to fall in love with the male Exile. We don't know that they are strangers any more than we know why Atris sees any of the Exile incarnations as a hero. And even if Sion develops feelings for Exile over the course of the game, that does not make it irrelevant. To have an antagonist develop an affinity for the protagonist is usually interesting, especially if the antagonist is aware s/he is going to be put into an unavoidable conflict with the protagonist. As i have said, Sion has potential. [Hekate]How is the unknown explanation of why Atris loves male Exile more compelling than the unknown reason of why Atris respects and admires all Exile incarnations? Just because it is a romance plot? Is respecting someone genuinely more difficult to fathom than loving someone? i'd say in daily life respecting comes more often than loving on the whole. [Jediphile]Respect is earned through the observations you make about other people, and those are always tied to specific events or But those are unknown to us, and so leaves the story stranded. Love is a feeling, however, and feelings often just are with little or no explanation. I find it entirely believable that Atris may have developed feeling that she did not intend toward the Exile during their long years serving together at the Academy. How is it there is a difference in how much respect and hero worship are feelings versus attraction? What i am hearing you say is they were at the academy together for a long time. That gave plenty of opportunity for Atris to fall for Exile. But them being together a long time at the academy is not enough reason for Atris to have come to respect and admire Exile. How can i possibly make a counter to an argument that has a bias as its basis? All i can do is say things should be kept on an equal ground in order for the debate to be able to amount to anything. i would argue if she had time to fall in love with him, she had time to come to respect Exile. [Jediphile]No, but Anakin just lost his mother. That's a pretty strong relationship. Is it unreasonable that he should feel angry over the sandpeople murdering her? That wasn't the point though. The point was in an earlier post it was stated he turned to the dark side because of Padme. i disagreed with that assumption and countered with my own about his fall had to do with himself which eventually lead to my saying he committed the attrocity with the Sandpeople before she gave in to her feelings for him. i wasn't saying Anakin shouldn't have been angry over his mother being torture to death. [Jediphile]How can he possibly expect her to love him after he murdered defenseless children? Pretty silly, but he did expect it, which tells us much of how deluded an individual he had become. What i found very disturbing is she accepted he murdered defenceless Sandpeople children. She didn't bat an eye at it and comforted him instead. She is a senator, for crying out loud, who fought for her people's freedom. i found that to be extremely out of character for her to do. And it is for those reasons, as well as the ones i pointed out in earlier posts, i said Padme became a weak character after the first movie. [Jediphile]When we first meet Visas, she is, in spite of her strengths, broken upon Nihilus' will. But I'm not sure if the Exile understands her, and even if the Exile does, you know I have my own speculations about why that is, which have to do with the ties between the Exile and Nihilus. Once Visas confronts the Exile, however, Nihilus' control over her is broken, and becomes far more determined and self-aware. And she becomes dedicated to the goal of destroying Nihilus, so that other worlds will not suffer the same fate as Katarr. Visas is willing to destroy herself in the pursuit of that goal, because in some ways she feels guilt over having survived when all others on Katarr died. Yes. And that is why i thought she was easier for Exile to read and why Exile wouldn't be too worried about her betraying him. [Jediphile]Atris is strong-willed, but her convictions have been perverted as her true self has been slowly eroded under the strain the sith holocrons have subjected her to. Like Boromir, she tried to use the power of the enemy against the enemy and instead fell as a consequence of her presumption to be able to control it. The change is subtle, however, and Atris was too blind and proud to see the danger. However, what I like about the male Exile's plot is that he may inadvertently have caused her initial fall, when she was unsure of her feelings and began lying to herself in order to maintain her sense of self. In doing so she made herself proud and aloof - above such simple feelings as love. It's a lie, of course, and one that the sith holocrons then exploit to cause her fall. Which happens to her even with female Exile. And that is why i said i find it more intence that Atris began to question and doubt because of Exile without the need for the usual self-doubt and confusion that goes along with attraction. That Atris was so deeply affected by Exile because of Exile (what Atris sees in Exile, etc) and not because of the attraction factor which invariably lends itself to seeing a person differently. i find that to be more powerful. To have a person who can see another for who and what s/he really is without attraction muddling things up, and to have the person become so disillusioned because the other is following a different path, is a very powerful image. Surely, with attraction in the mix it adds intensity and all that. i'm not dismissing it. i can see the appeal in it. i just find the other more compelling. [Hekate]And here is where i find the discrepancy of how the weighing of the merrit of a character's complexity and worth as a potential love interest becomes disturbing. Bao-Dur is single handedly responsible for creating and then activating the mass shadow generator. He killed millions (?) with his own hands at the trigger. He made that weapon of mass destruction possible. That is one hell of a burden to live with. Close to the opposite of what Visas must endure. He carries all that same pain Exile does, albeit differently, and he has the added buren of guilt. Exile gave the order, but it is Bao-Dur who carried it out. And he faces what he has done. Not only that, he wishes to set things as right as he can for what he has done. Atris hides in her academy, scheming with delusions she is still a Jedi and she hasn't fallen. Bao-Dur works for Telos and the Ithorians, and he even wreaks a little havok with Czerka. He maintains ethics even through ghastly experiences. He is strong, complex, and compelling as a character. But the player has no clue about Malachor V in any substantial way until late in the game when Bao-Dur speaks of it in more detail through recounting his dream. It is eluded to, but not explained. He has many waring emotional factions within himself, which he is dealing with as a constant. That he is doing something productive in and of itself is remarkable. He has a very complex psyche, and the fact he can't do anything about the General having an effect on him despite his wishing it otherwise and actively fighting that inclination is compelling. He also forces Exile to stop hiding and face reality with Exile being told it is time for her/him to construct her/his lightsabre. [Jediphile]I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. Bao-Dur simplifying things, seeing things as he would a schematic so to speak, requires him to be able to see the big picture for him to simplify it. He does not only see bits and pieces, he sees the whole and how it all works, than he reduces it to a manageable size. An engineer has to consider not only the building itself, but also the soil, the weather conditions, the weight of what is being housed in the structure and well as that of those who enter it and the materials used to build it, etc. It also requires complexity of thought to be able to reduce the big into cohesive and workable small. As in math, to simplify one must first expand. [Hekate]Now the question is if attraction detracts from his and female Exile's relationship. i look at it this way, their attraction does not take away from what they have shared, nor does it diminish them as individuals. It doesn't minimize nor trivialize their friendship based relationship either. Female Exile and Bao-Dur have the same under current as male Exile and Bao-Dur. [Jediphile]Yes, but a presumed romance complicates things, and that is not a quality for Bao-Dur for the reasons given above. Any romance would complicate things for him since those feelings cannot so easily be simplified, they cannot be controled, and alot of the time they are irrational. i would think though that Bao-Dur being attracted to his General would have the contradictory effects of both simplifying and complicating. It simplifies things greatly that it was she who ordered the activation of the MSG, which makes it all the more complicated at the same time. They are definitely in that mess together by virtue of their roles with regards to Malachor V. And just because them having feelings for eachother complicates things, doesn't mean it would be out of character for Bao-Dur. i would think someone who understands what he is going through would be a big relief. It also allows him to find some measure of being able to forgive himself, as you described with Atton, if she sees enough worth in him to love him. [Hekate]The second point about female Exile being potentially repulsed is moot since Exile could be potentially put off by any and/or all of them. And if she does get horrified it doesn't prevent it from being meaningful. It is heartbreaking. [Jediphile]You're *supposed* to be repulsed by Atris. If not sooner, the Exile will be once he/she learns that she was the one who leaked the knowledge of the Jedi meeting on Katarr to the Sith. For Atris, it's only a matter of time before you're repulsed. Bao-Dur is not supposed to repulse you, however, since he will be essential to the choice you must later make on Malachor V (well, in the LS ending, anyway). Good point about Atris. Eventhough i was personally repulsed by what she had done i didn't transfer that feeling onto Exile. Strange. i wonder why.... *internal pondering* i don't know if Exile isn't supposed to be repulsed by Bao-Dur though, but i don't mean it in the repulsed by his loving her way as we were discussing before, i mean in the what he represents way. That he can't forgive himself but forgives Exile so easily, that must be hard for Exile to accept. It is almost ignoring the severity of the role Exile had which is ignoring reality. Which then makes one wonder if Bao-Dur truly feels Exile isn't to blame or if he needs to convince himself of that in order for him to be able to tollerate being in Exile's presence. There is that attraction-repulsion factor that plays between them, regardless of Exile's sex. That he can't forgive himself at all must also be hard for Exile to accept because that signifies the actions they took that day over Malachor V cannot be so easily forgotten and its effects linger within, even if one chooses not to deal with them which seems to be Exile's way. [Jediphile]You keep insisting that the male Exile knows nothing of Atris' feelings for him, yet as I've shown clearly above, that is not correct. Atris is essential to how the plot unfolds. That is a fact. Mical is not, however, because he doesn't add anything that you cannot learn from other sources. You may think he explains things better or sooner than other characters, but that still doesn't make his presence essential. i keep insisting on the fact we have no clue how Atris came to be attracted to male Exile nor why because it is fact. And that this very same aspect of the player not knowing why Sion cares for female Exile is enough to discount him, than that has to apply to Atris too. That was the point i was making. It is wrong to apply different standards under the same point. Unless someone can bring to light Atris revealing her attraction for male Exile, it is an assumption it is there at all. i am not dismissing the possibility Atris loves him, and if she does, it certainly does add to the confusion and emotional pull of their interaction. Mical does bring information about Exile one does not get from any other source as i have explained above. [Jediphile]Also, as I've said several times now, Brianna has ties to the Exile through her parents. I will retain the right to continue to point that out as long as you continue to ignore and/or dismiss it. i am not ignoring nor dismissing the fact Brianna's parents have ties to Revan and to Malahor V. Exile has a tie to Kae if she was a soldier under her/him, and if Kae was killed because of the MSG. Yusanis is tied to Revan and not Exile since he was the leader of the Echani and had his own command. We do not know if Yusanis and Exile were aquainted or not, though since it isn't mentioned, as with Kae, it is likely they were not aquainted. The original disagreement was that Brianna had no first-hand personal ties to Exile's past. She still doesn't. That her parents did means little since that would be like saying hypothetically if she knew Master Kavar that would link her and Exile. It wouldn't. That would only mean they know a person in common. Brianna is personally tied to Atris, that is true. And Atris it tied to Exile. But until Brianna met Exile, other than Atris' obsession with him and all that is related to that, he meant nothing to her, nor she to him. And that was used to as a basis to contrast that to Mical who indeed had personal ties to Exile. It is a fair comparisson to make. Just as it is fair to make the comparisson that Brianna has a tie to Atris that Mical doesn't. Actually, he does. Substitute Mical with Atton. [Jediphile]So Mical was supposed to become the Exile's padawan. So what? The Exile is also suggested to have been destined to be trained by Kavar. Does that give Kavar special significance in the story? No, it doesn't. It's just an interesting little piece of information. It does not give Kavar any more or less significance in the plot. "So what?" indeed. i must admit i am at a loss as to why Brianna's connection to Exile through her parents is given so much weight when Exile's intended padawan whom she walked out on and irrevokably changed his life isn't. The master-padawan relationship is masively meaningful. And even if Exile supposing to be trained by Kavar isn't important to the plot, it is important to their relationship. [Hekate] IIRC, which i indeed may not be, Bastila had that super cool battle meditation which guaranteed her padawanship regardless of her lack of self-control and her haughtiness. i am not sure though whether she told Carth on Taris in KotOR her battle meditation hadn't manifested itself yet or hadn't fully manifested itself yet by the time Revan joined the Mandalorian Wars. Even if not, isn't really too relevant. Mical has never lied at any other point. The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... [Jediphile]Well, excuse me for pointing out gaping plot holes... I shall endeavour not to do such heinous acts in the future Was that *choked with emotion* sarcasm? Et tu Jediphile, et tu. [Jediphile]But it's interesting that you should bring up "blatant Brianna fanboyism". Given how much thought you give to the subject, clearly it would be completely unreasonable to suspect you of "blatant Mical fangirlism"... " Methinks thou doth protest too strongly... Perhaps too strongly but certainly not unjustified. i was getting very frustrated by the time i wrote that and i probably shouldn't have, but you did use the fanboy argument against people who defended Revan in a different thread so i thought i'd throw it in as a little touch of irony and humour, especially since the parenthesis directly preceeded my comment of rational debate. That's why i added the thong reference too, for humour. Guess its all in the delivery though, so obviously it didn't have the intended effect. i take it i shouldn't quit my day job to become a comic then, eh? Mical fanboyism? *shiver* LOL Please! i don't like how they made his character. It was creepy and not in the good way. i found it difficult to make it through his talks. But i can still point out his worth as a character. i didn't much care for G0-T0 either and found some of his speeches difficult to sit through as well but i still see his worth in the plot. i found alot of the time when HK-47 went on to be difficult to listen to as well, but i still appreciate his worth. If the debate was about who was the creepyist, Mical woud be right up there if not at the top. [Jediphile]But no indication to the contrary either. And in any event, it has no impact or consequence to the game's plot whatsoever. We can assume or suppose whatever we want about it, because it just doesn't matter. How did Carth/Cede know the Sith were on their way to Telos? i assumed Mical would have informed his superiors in his reports. Them being there to counter it is significant. Of course that Carth thanks Exile for the second chance to defend Telos even with Mical not on board would indicate Exile, or one of the crew, 'phoned ahead'. Either way, i seriously doubt he would just stop working for the Republic given how attached he is to it. It does matter to the plot if he is keeping the Republic updated on what is transpiring with Exile and the lost Jedi. [Jediphile]If he just sat around for all those years pining for the Exile, then I don't think that is so much romantic as just sad... He was no longer in the jedi order, so he could actually have gone to look for her, but nooooo... Yes, that obviously makes for good characterization He had medical training, got a job working for the Republic, had a life basically. It doesn't seem as if all he did was pine... And why would he go look for her? She obviously didn't want to be found. That would make him even more obsessed than Atris to stalk the whole Outer Rim looking for her. Besides, she left him to go to war. He understood her choice of defending the peoples affected by the Mandalorian's assaults was more important to her than her fulfilling her Jedi duty to become an apprentice's master. She made her choice. He moved on. [Hekate]My, my. Atton slaggin' time. Alright, i'll play too. Atton was simple because he had a complicated history. No, that doesn't work. Hmm... Atton is simple because he seems laid back and carefree but is always on his guard and very perceptive. That doesn't work either... Seems i'm not so good at this game. Seriously now, anyone who can keep track of everyone's business as well as galactic business, learns new skills faster than Einstein on speed, has a multitude of difficult to learn skills, is a social chameleon, can put up resistance to Kreia, has switched loyalties a few times and his own identity, and can read situations better than anyone else on the crew is not a simple character. His very thought process is fascinating. But the very fact he is constantly thinking subversively means he has developed a sub-level thought process that goes on under the surface, as is seen with mulit-tasking. He doesn't see things in cut and dry terms, he sees between the obvious. He can be callous and he can be caring. All that and my previous post point towards the "not simple" argument. But every character can be reduced the status of simple with enough simplifying. [Jediphile]You seem to see the word "complex" as meaning having a deep history. However, that is not quite right. Complex: A: 1. Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts; composite. 2. Composed of two or more units: a complex carbohydrate. B: Involved or intricate, as in structure; complicated. Hey, someone has their claws out today. i thought by describing how his thought processes are multi-layered and have many different levels to them, etc was well within the the realm of complexity. i maintain that. And i speak more of it above. [Jediphile]Atton has a long and massive history, but that does not make him a complex person. He is not "interconnected" or "interwoven" by many parts. All he has become can be traced back to his experiences while he worked for the sith. It's a long story. It's a deep story. But once you know it, you understand who and what Atton is now, for better or worse, and his choices and motives will no longer surprise you. And as I've said before, "simple" does not mean "idiotic" or "half-witted". i completely disagree with that. Atton is the only one whose motives are difficult to fathom. Even he isn't certain what they are. And a complicated history invariably leads to a complex persona. i didn't take you saying he is simple as an idication you thought he is uninteligent. i took it as you said early: easy to understand. i still cannot see how Atton is simple. [Jediphile]And cut the sarcasm - it's not your strong point. It is also distracting from the issue at hand, and may therefore be contrued as an attempt to subvert the discussion, which I doubt is your intention. You're absolutely right it isn't my intent to subvert the discussion using sarcasm. i was expressing my frustration and annoyance with the fact we could not agree that Atton is complex. It is your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it, but it still bothers me that it seems to be a rather obvious fact and yet it is refuted. That is my issue though, but i just thought i should explain why i got annoyed. i concede your sarcasm is mightier than mine and that it doesn't subvert from the discusion, other than when quoting dictionary definitions. That was ironically stating 'Atton isn't an idiot simpleton but you are'. Although i assume that was not your intent since you don't do that in your other posts that i've read. So, i will try to refrain from using sardonicism and sarcasm. [Hekate]Oh, BTW, i felt the term fool fit quite appropriately to Atton in the historical context. When i think of the Shakespearean fool and the fool of the tarot, that is a fairly decent representation of Atton. And the fool is not foolish nor simple. Fools moves to the beat of their own drum and learn alot on the way. They are smart and versatile, but have their own slew of bagage. Sounds like Atton. [Jediphile]Now I'm wondering how you'll explain Kreia calling Atton an "imbecile" really means that she praises his intellect and how he's the deepest and most perceptive person alive... i explain it by saying Kreia herself is complex and she likes leaving uncertainty and self-doubt in people. i thought she wouldn't intentionally be redundent, which she would be if she called Atton "an idiot and an imbecile". That is why i thought 'fool' is significant as a term. [Jediphile]And how long did that take her? It was not a true struggle, no. The spider had the fly in its web. There was no escape. Yet the spider was amused by the fly's futile attempts to resist and free it self. It played with the fly for its own dark amusement for a moment, revelling in the terror of its victim. But then the delight passed, and the spider got to work on its helpless victim, which then promptly succumbed... Kreia says to him when she is forcing her way into his mind "you are a slippery one, and your thoughts are difficult even for one such as I to read". [Jediphile]She didn't. She hid from them until she was content to reveal herself. Besides, if she messed with their minds, she would have abandoned one of her goals, which was to justify her own teachings to them. Kreia joins the meeting with the masters because she wants to present the Exile as evidence of her philosophies. She did hope until the last that she could justify herself and make them see her point. It's when they refuse that their fates are sealed. Assuming LS ending, that - since otherwise the masters are dead and the point is moot. When Exile asks Kreia why the Jedi Masters never mentioned her it was argued that Kreia had altered their minds with those techniques and made them forget about her entirely. She did a number on Atris since Atris could not remember her being in her own academy. She remembered Atton and Bao-Dur but not Kreia. Kreia is in the party when they meet up with Master Kavar and he doesn't react to her presence, almost as if she wasn't even there. The same goes for Master Vrook if Kreia is in the party when meeting him. Obviously she was affecting their minds since on Dantooine when the Masters are gathered, they freak out at her presence. [Hekate]Yup. Sure did. Yet when i said that about Atton's relevance in the plot you propmtly told me that that is Revan and not Exile. So, which is it? i prefer to think Revan is important, but to support that Atton isn't than Revan has to be discounted. But alas, that then weakens Brianna's significance too... What to do? What to do?!? Nah, i'm just riling you. But let me know once you decide... :ph34r: [Jediphile]You were the one to introduce the idea that the plots must have direct consequence to the Exile and so that he/she is aware of too, so you'll have to answer that question yourself. You did that so you could dismiss the significance of Brianna in the plot compared to Mical. Do you regret that now? No regrets! i was pointing out Brianna's significance to Exile's past in that context. i did not say she isn't significant. As i said before, when measuring the potential romantic people's ability to get more physically intimate with Exile, Brianna wins. If Atton and female Exile played Nar Shadda rules, that would be a different story. But they didn't, so Brianna definitely carries the weight in that context. [Jediphile]Still amounts to pretty much the same thing in my book... Fair enough i suppose. But he does add stuff no one else does and that's what was being questioned so i pointed it out. Edited May 13, 2006 by Hekate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 I think Sion's feelings carry just a slight bit of more significance than Atris. Atris has the same feelings for the Exile, male or female, while Sion on Malachor V doesn't want the Exile going to fight Kreia because he knows what she'll do to her and Sion doesn't want her to become like him because he has feelings for her. I also think that develops a little bit into his downfall on Malachor V when he finally gives up and dies. During that fight, I kinda felt sorry for the guy and didn't want to kill him... (And that's just the released slop-job ending) And of course he mentions no such feelings for the male Exile, begging the question of why does Sion try to stop him? DAWUSS Dawes ain't too bright. Hitting rock bottom is when you leave 2 tickets on the dash of your car, leave it unlocked hoping someone will steal them & when you come back, there are 4 tickets on your dashboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] The upper portion describing how Atris is upset by Exile holds true for either sex of Exile as the previous paragraph emphasizes. Though i'm not saying there isn't the potential for romantic subtext. Brianna asking if Exile and Atris were involved; however; when i played through as male Exile, seemed to stem from her feelings for Exile, her curiosity about him and the Jedi culture revolving around love. Brianna seems to be a very self-oriented person in the sense of she relates to things and people by how she preceives and feels about things herself rather than what others may think and feel (not meant as an insult). So her asking if Exile cared for Atris romantically those 10 years ago as Jedi doesn't necessarily prove Atris feels that way about Exile though it does add credence to that argument. Now let's examine that quote again: Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." Now, from the first bold-faced part, we know that Atris has feelings for the male Exile. You may question at this point what those feelings are, but you don't get to question that they are there, unless you're adamant about denying Brianna's observations. In the second bit I've put in bold-face, Brianna then goes on to talk about romantic love between jedi. Now, who are we talking about here? It is obvious that Brianna has "heard" of jedi who fall in love and leave the order (that's what her mother did), but she is not talking about Kae and Yusanis in this conversation. She is talking about love *between* jedi - as in both people must be jedi (and Yusanis was not). By the same logic, she is not talking about herself and the Exile either, because at this point Brianna is not a jedi herself (and it may still be doubted whether the Exile is a jedi or something else...). That leaves with only one possible conclusion. She is talking about the Exile and Atris. You have been adamant in denying that the love between is openly there in the game, but it is right here. So as long as you continue to deny it, it seems pointless to me to discuss the matter further. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] He used his ingenuity to come up with the idea of levitating C3-PO, it was a clever idea. Whereas Leia stood by and had nothing to add after her initial protest. i was agreeing Leia wasn't captured by them. Infact, that she wasn't captured and did so little to attempt to help them is the weakness i was speaking of. Calling that weakness only has meaning if Leia was helpless. I do not agree that she was. But she's a diplomat, whereas Luke is a jedi knight. Diplomacy takes time. Luke didn't give her that time, so it's unfair to mark Leia as weak because Luke couldn't be bothered to give her time to make her diplomacy work. You completely forget that Leia tells 3PO to translate, and when the Ewoks still won't listen, Luke cuts Leia off and tells 3PO to tell the Ewoks that he'll be angry and use his magic if they don't listen. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] It wouldn't matter if every single one of the those captured by the Ewoks were female and if it was Luke who was enslaved by Jabba instead. In that case Luke's predicament would have been more humiliating, moreso if he was forced to wear only a codpiece. Luke actively prevented Han from getting violent with the Ewoks so their capture was not from them being incompetent. Luke could lift the massive door into Jabba's place so certainly he could have knocked all the Ewoks on their butts if he had wanted to. It shouldn't be overly personally humiliating for them to have been captured in that way when they allowed it to happen. Being tied up and carried on a pole is humiliating, but Leia was chained around her neck, treated as a slave, and as a sexual object. That is more humiliating, especially with a crowd of unsavoury spectators to gawk and leer and her humiliation lasted longer than theirs. Han sure didn't seem to me to feel that way while the Ewoks were trying to light a fire under him... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]As far as the thong goes... it is a point of contention for me. It was not so much that it was in there as opposed to its execution. And it is a repeated theme in the SW universe i've been exposed to and i find it irksome. Fair enough, but that's your own personal opinion. I don't really disagree, I just don't think it's particularly relevant to the discussion. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i meant that KotOR II with a well writen female Exile lead would be a good story as something we agree on since we already agree on KotOR II with a well writen male Exile would be a good story. i never said a female lead just for the hell of it is a good thing either. Just look at alot of the tripe out there with female leads and it becomes quite apparent. As far as the female bias is concerned, suggesting there should be more strong female leads is not suggesting females are better. It is suggesting people are exposed to a significant imbalance in the female to male strong lead ratio. Again, to clarify, i am not suggesting there has to be and equal amount. Nor am i suggesting strong male leads should be sacrificed in the pursuit of improving representation. The already massive amounts of strong male leads will not be somehow damaged nor reduced in significance should more strong female leads be added to the roster. I'd agree that there is a definitely lack of well-written female leads in computer game plots. In fact, I don't recall any off hand, but then that may also be because gender is usually optional in a lot of games, and being male I usually play male. "The Summoner" had some decent female characters, I thought, but they were not leading characters, just companions or NPCs... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Exactly. Things are thrown in as "by the way..." and that really irks me. We would have no idea Exile taught younglings nor that Exile was to take on a padawan if it wasn't for Mical, and she didn't even recognize him!. i would say that is very significant since Exile leaving had a big impact on people in a personal way, which one would think a player should know about their own character. Exile is reduced to an oblivious and clueless character. With all these things thrown in in that fashion, it seems as if depth was attempted to be added as an afterthought. Actually, I don't think so, because the plot generally seems well thought out and compelling. It's just that it's told badly in these cases. There was a good reason for this in K1, because they made Revan amnesic, and so it was obvious why he could remember nothing of his past. In K2 they make the Exile, ahem, "not amnesic", but it doesn't matter because the player is still kept in the dark. The way to tell a story like that is to bring up all the points that will be important later early in the game, so that the player is at least given a clue as to what his own character has experienced. This can be done through flashback cut-scenes or conversation. For example, Kreia or Atton could have asked the Exile a lot of questions about his past, and the Exile could then choose to answer or dodge the question, but even if he dodged it, the player would still get to see what the answer was from the possible conversation paths and so have this information revealed to him at a point when it doesn't seem quite so significant. In K1 they actually did it more skillfully in the cutscene where Bastila and company "defeat" Revan, because it just looks like plot background thrown in there for dramatic effect, and it isn't until much later that you realize that it is really lost memories resurfacing for your main character. This would have been even easier in K2, since the context is obvious for the Exile's past, but instead it's just abandoned [Jediphile]Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Well, bless me for being an idiot. Never called you that. I just observed that I didn't find the plot to be imcomplete when playing the male Exile... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Since when does what Kreia has to say about anybody carry such a huge significance? Since the quote is actually from Kreia's predictions at the end of the game, where she is finally being honest with you, since there is no point in lying. And this is the LS prediction for Atton. The DS prediction is far worse... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]She states Visas cannot be trusted, Bao-Dur's thoughts are irrelevant just because she can't read them eventhough that is the first time Malachor V's impact is hinted at through his toughts, etc. Visas is loyal, Boa-Dur's thoughts are important, etc. And saying there is no love left in his heart is different than saying he loves her in an idealized way. According to Kreia, Atton doesn't love Exile at all. No, she says there is no love in his heart. She does not say there is no "love" in him at all. Which is why I say that Atton loves the female Exile on a idealized level. He admires her. But he cannot truly love her in the romantic sense. He puts her on a pedestal and worships her as an ideal. He would not accept her love, because it would lower her from that pedestal, and I don't think he could bear that. [Jediphile]Ah, but Atton has no choice but to see it that way if he is to live with himself, does he? I mean, if he's wrong, then what he has done is inexcusable, and though the Exile might - as Kreia puts it - forgive him for it, Atton would never be able to forgive himself. So he shifts the blame. It wasn't his fault - it was the jedi's fault. He lies to himself, but that is the only way he can bear to live, since he would be consumed by his own guilt if he didn't insist on keeping it at arms length like this. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]That adds to his complexity... And yeah, i do think he has a choice, and he opts to use it. i do not concur he places all the blame on the Jedi. What he did is inexcusable, and he knows it. He didn't say Revan made him torture Jedi, he says he enjoyed breaking them. And yes, he lies to himself, to everyone actually, but he also is honest with himself and others too, and these varrying forces being exerted on him as well as how he reacts to them are complex. i doubt very many people could look at Atton and know what he is thinking, nor could any given person know how he will respond to any given situation. He is a master at obscuring any sense of certainty people may feel they have in understanding him. That requires a multi-layered and difficult to understand thought process. He also states himself he hasn't known who he is for years. He is in constant psychological turmoil and he is trying to figure out who and what he wants to be. These are traits of complexity rather than simplicity. No, they're not. They are layers of self-loathing and self-delusion. Atton has many demons to struggle with, but that does not make him a complex person. Atton lies as much to himself as he does to others if not more so. He is in denial about his actions and his motives, because that is the only way he can tolerate himself. He is a miserable and pitiable creature. None of this makes him complex. He has a big and dark secret, and you cannot figure him out until you find that rather sizeable piece to the puzzle, but once you have it, you understand Atton's predicament. And you're supposed to. The only way Atton would be truly complex is if after learning his secret, he still had facets to him that defy explanation, and that is not the case. Nor is it supposed to be, since you're supposed to "get it" once he reveals his secret. Also, note his conversations with Kreia after revaeled his secret to the Exile. Kreia: "Why are you here? Atton: "Because I told him, told him everything." Kreia: "Ah. And now you are free?" Atton: "Yeah - so no more threats, no more of your "requests." You and me - we're done." Kreia: "Did you ever think I truly held you? You are more of a fool than I thought.What truly held you was you - and let me show you why. I once held the galaxy by the throat...And I know what lies buried within you. That you hide with your desperate thoughts, your guilt, your lusts....as you once held her by the throat, and let her die slowly. And your emotion at that point is what you fear. I can unlock that part of you anytime I wish. It is a simple thing, the human mind, once it feels something strongly, it becomes etched in the memory, the subconscious.Shall I show you? That part of you that hungered to kill Jedi, that took pleasure from it?Or perhaps you will continue to listen to my counsel and I shall ignore your pathetic attempts at freedom. Now leave me, murderer. I have nothing further to say to one such as you." Atton revealed everything, and Kreia's only remaining control of him is what powers she can threaten him with - to make him see those horrors of his past, that she knows he cannot bear to confront. Atton does not answer. He flees from her as he flees from the truth and his past. Note Kreia's comment about the subconscious, because that is fairly important. She knows that Atton is in denial, and that he lies to himself in order to live with himself. Because that is the only way he can bear to live. What Atton truly admires about the Exile - male or female - is that the Exile has killed more people (and more Jedi) than he ever did, and yet the Exile can seemingly bear to live with that weight. Atton follows because he wants to learn that trait himself, since he knows that he cannot bear to live with what he has done himself. It is not complicated. It's just repressed under layers upon layers of self-deception, because that is the only way Atton can live with his guilt. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i doubt those thoughts are solely in his sub-conscious. Never said it was solely in his subconscious, but some of it is. Kreia says so, and Atton confirms it through his silence and lack of objection. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]They are probably all that keeps him going sometimes. My point was, even with thinking these things, he still sees the other side of it. He is fully aware nothing can erase the karmic burden of either of their pasts, thus, i don't think he is looking for redemption in the Jedi sense, and especially not for redemption through her. He full well knows becoming LS and staying there will not make up for the consequences of either of their actions. He wants her to love him for who he is right now, eventhough he isn't sure of who he is nor what he is. But if she does, he will have difficulty accepting it because he has difficulty accepting himself. That isn't to say he would necessarily reject it, because through it, he could very well find the means to heal. And maybe, just maybe, he could help her to heal too. That he experiences so many inner conflicts and he thinks about them on many different levels and in many different ways makes him a complex person. Many interwoven parts interacting with eachother in different ways and all. To add to his complexity, Atton has a derserter complex to boot. No, he does not have a deserter complex, at least not in the sense that saying it suggests. Atton is not a coward when it comes to physical threat. It is not the danger of war or physical harm that he flees from. He is fleeing from himself, his guilt, and his past. He also flees from the truth. There is no complexity in the sense you suggest, since it all follows as a natural consequence from his experiences as a sith interrogator. And once you learn that, Atton can be understood. To call him complex because he has a big secret is applying a complexity to him that is not there. If it were, you should be able to understand only some of Atton's predicament from his revelation, and that is not the case, nor is it supposed to be. [Jediphile]In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i don't have a problem with it. What i do have a problem with is when it is given more weight than anyone elses. It is given more weight because it has heavier impact on the story. All the romance options with the companions (Atton (what little is there), Disciple, Handmaiden, and Visas) is not particularly relevant to the greater plot. You can explore it if you wish, but you don't have to. Atris' feelings for the Exile are fairly significant, however, especially in the male Exile's case. I cannot remember what was to trigger her becoming Darth Traya instead of Kreia, but I'm pretty sure her love for the Exile and Brianna's "betrayal" was probably part of it. Still, that's probably a non-issue, since it was not in the game and shouldn't be, since it didn't make sense for her to suddenly take over all of Kreia's goals. But Atris is still significant, because she is a trigger for Kreia to returning to the postition of Darth Traya. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] So Brianna has a father complex? i don't know. i'm sure it is possible, but i thought the similarity she saw between Exile and her father was the burden they carried. She is similar to her father with falling for a Jedi. But the most important thing to her about her father was to prove how she isn't a betrayer as he was. That is alot more about her than about Exile. She does, by her own words, betray Atris when she chooses to become a jedi. And she does say that she sees in the Exile something she has longed to understand all her life. That's one reason I don't like her so much as a romance option. It's like she is loving the shadow of her dead father that she sees in the Exile more than she loves the Exile himself. As Kreia puts it, she cannot help but love him, but I'm uncertain if it is truly romantic love. It's like she sees her father in the Exile, and the age difference might suggest that too. We don't know exactly how old these characters are, but Brianna seems to be about the same age as Mira, and Mira tells the male Exile that he is too old for her... That's why I like Visas better as a romance option. She seems more mature and unconflicted about her feelings. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] The point of contention with regards to Sion's feelings for Exile was they were not explained. The player has no context of why he cares for her. i said the same is true for Atris. The player has no clue why Atris cares for Exile. One certainly can assume a great many reasons why she might however, we simply do not know. We do not know if they were in close proximity to eachother when Exile was on Dantooine, we do not know if they share a Force bond, we don't even know if she loves him at all unless someone can enlighten us on that. But even if she does, it is not given context either, so given Sion actually speaks with female Exile about his feelings whereas Atris does not speak to male Exile of hers, one cannot dismiss the significance of Sion's impact as a potential romantic involvement. Whatever argument you can make about lack of knowledge about Atris' feelings for the Exile will hurt the female Exile's relationship to Atris far more, because we don't know what that is founded on either. It is far easier to accept that Atris may have secretly loved the male Exile without any details than it is to accept that Atris admired the female Exile without any details of what that was, because that makes no sense in the context of the greater plot of the KotOR games. Revan and Malak are consistently described as the most admired young jedi who left the order to fight the Mandalorian Wars. The Exile, however, was not. And to suddenly throw it in there with no explanation therefore hurts the story. Sure, you could argue that Atris admired the Exile for other reasons than Revan or Malak, but then that begs - no *demands* - the question of what that was. The story therefore becomes woefully incomplete without that informaton. Yet you're perfectly willing to accept that side of it, so that does not seem to me to judge the sides by the same conventions, as you demand that I do. Besides, even if we can rationalize things about the Exile past in Atris' case, the same is not true for Sion. Exile and Atris knew each other. Exile and Sion did not. That means that whatever relationship there is in the latter case *MUST* be there for us to see unfold in the game - there can be no unseen nuances or details, because you play the Exile from beginning to end with no interruptions in which such details might have taken place. The Exile and Sion only ever meet three times. First on Peragus, when they don't even interact. Then on Korriban, where they fight, but don't really talk. And finally on Malachor V, when the do talk, but still try to kill each other. There is no time for a relationship to build, and even there was, it still makes no sense. I mean: Sion: "Gee, I love you, but the plot still says I must kill you. No hard feelings, darling?" Exile: "No, of course not. That's fine, my dear..." It's just so idiotic that it defies belief and insults me as a player at the same time [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] And since weight is given to Atris' love by virtue of a possible lengthy time she and Exile knew eachother, than it is impossible to write off Mical's significance to Exile since his connection to her is actually revealed in-game. A padawan-Jedi relationship is a very significant one, from what i can tell. How is that not important and binding? Because even if you're right, the consequence of that observation is that if the female Exile had remained at the academy instead of running off to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, then she should be the last person in the universe to ever teach Mical. His feelings for her means that any emotions for her are doomed in any event, since Jedi may not have such feelings, especially not between master and padawan who have far stronger ties than other jedi do to each other. This would make far more sense if the Exile is male and there is no love in the picture. And so it again hurts the credibility of the plot in the case of the female Exile. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] We don't know that they are strangers any more than we know why Atris sees any of the Exile incarnations as a hero. And even if Sion develops feelings for Exile over the course of the game, that does not make it irrelevant. To have an antagonist develop an affinity for the protagonist is usually interesting, especially if the antagonist is aware s/he is going to be put into an unavoidable conflict with the protagonist. As i have said, Sion has potential. The potential I have pointed to above? Excuse me, but I need to find my bucket again... An antagonist having an affinity for the protagonist can be interesting, but only if it has relevance to the plot, and that is not the case here - it in no ways stops Sion from trying to continually kill the Exile. It has no impact or significance to the plot. The only difference is a few spoken lines about Sion's feelings, which are not very compelling, and which I do not find consistent to his character, in which case it hurts him in the plot. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]How is it there is a difference in how much respect and hero worship are feelings versus attraction? What i am hearing you say is they were at the academy together for a long time. That gave plenty of opportunity for Atris to fall for Exile. But them being together a long time at the academy is not enough reason for Atris to have come to respect and admire Exile. How can i possibly make a counter to an argument that has a bias as its basis? All i can do is say things should be kept on an equal ground in order for the debate to be able to amount to anything. i would argue if she had time to fall in love with him, she had time to come to respect Exile. You need an explanation for the relationship between Atris and the Exile. In the male Exile's case, love *is* that answer. In the female Exile's case we never know, because we're never told what the Exile did that made Atris admire her over Revan or Malak or any other jedi there. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] That wasn't the point though. The point was in an earlier post it was stated he turned to the dark side because of Padme. Please don't infer that I said that. You're ignoring that I said Anakin used Padme as a catalyst for turning to the dark side. I never said it was Padme's responsibility, and I don't think it's paritcularly polite to twist my words to suggest that I did so, and then proceeding to disagree with me on that basis. [Jediphile]When we first meet Visas, she is, in spite of her strengths, broken upon Nihilus' will. But I'm not sure if the Exile understands her, and even if the Exile does, you know I have my own speculations about why that is, which have to do with the ties between the Exile and Nihilus. Once Visas confronts the Exile, however, Nihilus' control over her is broken, and becomes far more determined and self-aware. And she becomes dedicated to the goal of destroying Nihilus, so that other worlds will not suffer the same fate as Katarr. Visas is willing to destroy herself in the pursuit of that goal, because in some ways she feels guilt over having survived when all others on Katarr died. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Yes. And that is why i thought she was easier for Exile to read and why Exile wouldn't be too worried about her betraying him. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me... I may see this side of Visas, but then I'm rationalizing after knowing the full story. I really was unsure all the way through playing the game, so I doubt the Exile was ever certain of this, because I sure wasn't. [Jediphile]Atris is strong-willed, but her convictions have been perverted as her true self has been slowly eroded under the strain the sith holocrons have subjected her to. Like Boromir, she tried to use the power of the enemy against the enemy and instead fell as a consequence of her presumption to be able to control it. The change is subtle, however, and Atris was too blind and proud to see the danger. However, what I like about the male Exile's plot is that he may inadvertently have caused her initial fall, when she was unsure of her feelings and began lying to herself in order to maintain her sense of self. In doing so she made herself proud and aloof - above such simple feelings as love. It's a lie, of course, and one that the sith holocrons then exploit to cause her fall. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Which happens to her even with female Exile. No, that doesn't add up for me, since that would suggest Atris only ever admired the Exile, and not Kavar, Vandar, Zhar, Kae, Zez-Kai Ell, Revan, or anyone else we can think of. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Admiration without explanation is not convincing enough. Love, however, is. [Jediphile]I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Bao-Dur simplifying things, seeing things as he would a schematic so to speak, requires him to be able to see the big picture for him to simplify it. He does not only see bits and pieces, he sees the whole and how it all works, than he reduces it to a manageable size. An engineer has to consider not only the building itself, but also the soil, the weather conditions, the weight of what is being housed in the structure and well as that of those who enter it and the materials used to build it, etc. It also requires complexity of thought to be able to reduce the big into cohesive and workable small. As in math, to simplify one must first expand. So you basically accept my analysis and then just apply the exact opposite conclusion to it? Sorry, but it doesn't seem very plausible to suggest that Bao-Dur is a complex person because he simplifies things. I don't see at all how you can reach that conclusion. It seems more to me like you just throw it in there because you don't like the idea of Bao-Dur being an uncomplicated guy, but in doing so, I think you deny his greatest strength, which is his ability to bring things down to a level where he can deal with them. That ability is what makes him able to deal with his own dark past, while Atton struggles with a burden that is by comparison not so troubling as Bao-Dur's would seem to be. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Any romance would complicate things for him since those feelings cannot so easily be simplified, they cannot be controled, and alot of the time they are irrational. Which is precisely why I prefer no romance between the Exile and Bao-Dur. And that is true in the male Exile's case. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i would think though that Bao-Dur being attracted to his General would have the contradictory effects of both simplifying and complicating. It simplifies things greatly that it was she who ordered the activation of the MSG, which makes it all the more complicated at the same time. They are definitely in that mess together by virtue of their roles with regards to Malachor V. And just because them having feelings for eachother complicates things, doesn't mean it would be out of character for Bao-Dur. i would think someone who understands what he is going through would be a big relief. That does not seem to be a good argument for a female Exile, since Bao-Dur can find just the same understanding and relief from the male Exile - and without the complication of love in there, which probably makes the whole thing more honest and above board. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]It also allows him to find some measure of being able to forgive himself, as you described with Atton, if she sees enough worth in him to love him. I don't see why he would need her to love him in order to find forgiveness. In fact, if she did love him, he would then have to struggle with whether she truly forgave him for his acts or whether she just says so because she loves, takes pity on him, and wants him to not blame himself anymore. And as I've said before, that's why I prefer the male Exile here too. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i don't know if Exile isn't supposed to be repulsed by Bao-Dur though, but i don't mean it in the repulsed by his loving her way as we were discussing before, i mean in the what he represents way. That he can't forgive himself but forgives Exile so easily, that must be hard for Exile to accept. I don't think it's a question of forgiveness. In Bao-Dur's case, I think the past just is, and they have little choice but to live with it. That Bao-Dur doesn't blame the Exile is probably because he feels that he is himself more responsible for having created the MSG in the first place (sort of like Oppenheimer). He doesn't blame the Exile because the Exile did what he/she had to do, and Bao-Dur understands and accepts that. It was war, after all. The Exile, of course, sees it the other way, and does take responsibility, because he/she gave the order. Psychologically they both do the same thing - they accept the responsibility because it somehow gives them control over the situation, and that is easier to accept than that were not to blame, since that makes them apathetic and unable to alter the outcome, their choices void and meaningless. That is why they both understand each other on this level. However, I still think this trauma works better with attraction or love in the picture. That may even be why Bao-Dur was removed from being a romance option for the female Exile. It was the right decision too, I think, but the possibility of it is still there obscuring the matter. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i keep insisting on the fact we have no clue how Atris came to be attracted to male Exile nor why because it is fact. And that this very same aspect of the player not knowing why Sion cares for female Exile is enough to discount him, than that has to apply to Atris too. That was the point i was making. It is wrong to apply different standards under the same point. But apparently not where Atris' admiration for the female Exile is concerned? Be careful - standards can be double-edged swords... " [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Unless someone can bring to light Atris revealing her attraction for male Exile, it is an assumption it is there at all. Brianna revealed it, as I have already pointed out. If you refuse to accept that, then the discussion is pointless. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Mical does bring information about Exile one does not get from any other source as i have explained above. No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i am not ignoring nor dismissing the fact Brianna's parents have ties to Revan and to Malahor V. Exile has a tie to Kae if she was a soldier under her/him, and if Kae was killed because of the MSG. Yusanis is tied to Revan and not Exile since he was the leader of the Echani and had his own command. We do not know if Yusanis and Exile were aquainted or not, though since it isn't mentioned, as with Kae, it is likely they were not aquainted. The original disagreement was that Brianna had no first-hand personal ties to Exile's past. She still doesn't. That her parents did means little since that would be like saying hypothetically if she knew Master Kavar that would link her and Exile. It wouldn't. That would only mean they know a person in common. For the life of me I cannot understand why Brianna must have direct relevance to the Exile's past to be considered a valid character. I really do not get why you insist that she must in order to have relevance. In fact, I think the opposite is true - if any and all characters in the game must - by whatever means - have direct relevance to the Exile's past, then the plot becomes convoluted and implausible. The Exile is not the center of the universe that everything resolves around, nor should he or she be. It is far more interesting that some of the characters have their own rich stories that add nuances to unfolding plot. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Brianna is personally tied to Atris, that is true. And Atris it tied to Exile. But until Brianna met Exile, other than Atris' obsession with him and all that is related to that, he meant nothing to her, nor she to him. And that was used to as a basis to contrast that to Mical who indeed had personal ties to Exile. It is a fair comparisson to make. Just as it is fair to make the comparisson that Brianna has a tie to Atris that Mical doesn't.Actually, he does. Substitute Mical with Atton. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] "So what?" indeed. i must admit i am at a loss as to why Brianna's connection to Exile through her parents is given so much weight when Exile's intended padawan whom she walked out on and irrevokably changed his life isn't. The master-padawan relationship is masively meaningful. And even if Exile supposing to be trained by Kavar isn't important to the plot, it is important to their relationship. No, Kavar's relationship with the Exile is immaterial. He is no more or less significant than, say, Zez-Kai Ell. So that is a non-issue. And as I've said before, the strong master-padawan relationship is precisely why the female Exile should never ever have been Mical's teacher. He loved her, and that is not premitted among the jedi, because it obscures the relationship and can lead to the dark side. The masters would never have allowed it. It's just another gaping plot-hole for poor Mical, though one that I can thankfully sidestep by simply playing a male Exile. [Hekate] IIRC, which i indeed may not be, Bastila had that super cool battle meditation which guaranteed her padawanship regardless of her lack of self-control and her haughtiness. i am not sure though whether she told Carth on Taris in KotOR her battle meditation hadn't manifested itself yet or hadn't fully manifested itself yet by the time Revan joined the Mandalorian Wars. Even if not, isn't really too relevant. Mical has never lied at any other point. The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... [Jediphile]Well, excuse me for pointing out gaping plot holes... I shall endeavour not to do such heinous acts in the future [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Was that *choked with emotion* sarcasm? Et tu Jediphile, et tu. A dog tends to bite when you repeatedly step on its tail... Besides, implying that someonebiased is trolling, since you cannot in good faith expect a constructive response. And it's poison to the discussion. If I see a plothole I will point it out, and if the other side then responds with accusations, then I will be... disappointed, since I do not think it was an unfair observation to make in the first place. [Jediphile]But it's interesting that you should bring up "blatant Brianna fanboyism". Given how much thought you give to the subject, clearly it would be completely unreasonable to suspect you of "blatant Mical fangirlism"... " Methinks thou doth protest too strongly... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Perhaps too strongly but certainly not unjustified. i was getting very frustrated by the time i wrote that and i probably shouldn't have, but you did use the fanboy argument against people who defended Revan in a different thread so i thought i'd throw it in as a little touch of irony and humour, especially since the parenthesis directly preceeded my comment of rational debate. That's why i added the thong reference too, for humour. One of us did not find it amusing... I geneally don't when people basically tells me I'm biased. Calling it a plothole that Mical claims nobody was left to teach him is not the same as claiming that "Oh my DS Revan pwn everyone ever in the whole galaxy", at least it isn't to me, and therefore inferring so does not seem like a very kind thing to do. Especially when I have already pointed to things in Brianna that made me prefer Visas over her as a romance option. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] How did Carth/Cede know the Sith were on their way to Telos? i assumed Mical would have informed his superiors in his reports. If that were true, Telos should have been doomed in the male Exile's story, since Mical is not there to warn them. Besides, who says they were warned at all? The whole assumption during that part of the game is that Citadel Station will fall if the Exile does not stop Nihilus, which does not suggest to me that there was any warning, or Carth/Cede would have called in more of the republic fleet to defend Telos. And even if we suspect that they were warned, I find it just as likely that Kreia leaked this information, since she wanted the Exile to come to Telos and defeat both Atris and Nihilus. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i completely disagree with that. Atton is the only one whose motives are difficult to fathom. Even he isn't certain what they are. *He* isn't certain himself, no. But the Exile is once she has heard his story. Kreia knew ever since the Telos Academy. Kreia manipulates Atton with impunity because he is easy for her to understand. That he isn't certain while both the Exile and Kreia are is precisely why he is simple. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]And a complicated history invariably leads to a complex persona. I disagree. First, it's not a complicated story, it's a troubled story. It does not have multiple facets or factors to it. I mean, Atton can tell it all in one conversation of a few minutes, so how "complicated" can it be? Second, a lengthy story does not necessarily make a person "complex". Sam and Frodo have a huge adventure, but Sam remains a fairly uncomplicated person in spite of it, whereas Frodo does not and falls because of it. Ignorance is bliss for Sam. Why can it not be for Atton as well? [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i didn't take you saying he is simple as an idication you thought he is uninteligent. i took it as you said early: easy to understand. i still cannot see how Atton is simple. He is easy to understand for both the people who learns of his secret (Exile and Kreia). The Exile never asks further questions once Atton's story is revealed. That does suggest that he is easy to understand. But yes, you do need to known his secret before you can understand him. Besides, neither you or I seem to have trouble understanding him. And the only reason Atton "doesn't understand" is because he dare not to - that's what Kreia's threat after the secret comes out is all about - when she can no longer intimidate him with revealing his secret to the Exile, she instead threatens him with revealing the truth of his secret to himself. And Atton seems to accept that threat without even put up a fight. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i concede your sarcasm is mightier than mine and that it doesn't subvert from the discusion, other than when quoting dictionary definitions. That was ironically stating 'Atton isn't an idiot simpleton but you are'. I have never said nor meant that. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i explain it by saying Kreia herself is complex and she likes leaving uncertainty and self-doubt in people. i thought she wouldn't intentionally be redundent, which she would be if she called Atton "an idiot and an imbecile". That is why i thought 'fool' is significant as a term. Might it not be a significant term for a simpler reason? [Jediphile]And how long did that take her? It was not a true struggle, no. The spider had the fly in its web. There was no escape. Yet the spider was amused by the fly's futile attempts to resist and free it self. It played with the fly for its own dark amusement for a moment, revelling in the terror of its victim. But then the delight passed, and the spider got to work on its helpless victim, which then promptly succumbed... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Kreia says to him when she is forcing her way into his mind "you are a slippery one, and your thoughts are difficult even for one such as I to read". Still didn't stop her or even slow her down. Well, it slowed her down, but only as an act of amusement and to prove her superiority. It's like Kreia taking a step back saying, "You wish to fight back? Ha - give it your best. See if I care..." She does not slow down because of Atton's abilities, however, but only to increase his terror and demonstrate her own power and superiority to him. This is one side of Kreia that I really don't like. It's one thing that she is manipulative and opressive, but that she actually enjoys it is even worse. She was Darth Traya all along... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]When Exile asks Kreia why the Jedi Masters never mentioned her it was argued that Kreia had altered their minds with those techniques and made them forget about her entirely. She did a number on Atris since Atris could not remember her being in her own academy. She remembered Atton and Bao-Dur but not Kreia. Ah, yes. I forgot about Atris... I forgot because I don't count her among the jedi masters. Why? Because she does not meet with the other masters on Dantooine (in spite of having promised the LS Exile to do so, I might add). Besides, Kreia knew since Telos that Atris had fallen, so she did not consider her one of the masters that she wanted to convince of her convictions. Kreia already knows that Atris is too far gone to ever see her side of things, and so she does whatever she wants with her and uses her as a pawn in her little game of dejarik... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Kreia is in the party when they meet up with Master Kavar and he doesn't react to her presence, almost as if she wasn't even there. The same goes for Master Vrook if Kreia is in the party when meeting him. Obviously she was affecting their minds since on Dantooine when the Masters are gathered, they freak out at her presence. Kreia has a way of masking her presence from those around her. Atris is, for example, completely unaware of her until one of the handmaiden sisters mentions "the old woman". Besides, in those cases, Kreia's presence is optionable and so cannot be considered as evidence of her having been there. I know that sounds stupid, but the game seems to accept these things only if there is no option in who you may take with you. It's the same when the two twi'leks on Nar Shaddaa notice Atton going with you - and therefore clearly in the party - yet when you talk to them, they say they will say nothing if Atton is present, and yet they do, even though he standing right there next to them. Go figure... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Fair enough i suppose. But he does add stuff no one else does and that's what was being questioned so i pointed it out. I still don't see that he added anything of significance. But then he cannot, since that would otherwise be lost to the male Exile's side of things, and that cannot be. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]The upper portion describing how Atris is upset by Exile holds true for either sex of Exile as the previous paragraph emphasizes. Though i'm not saying there isn't the potential for romantic subtext. Brianna asking if Exile and Atris were involved; however; when i played through as male Exile, seemed to stem from her feelings for Exile, her curiosity about him and the Jedi culture revolving around love. Brianna seems to be a very self-oriented person in the sense of she relates to things and people by how she preceives and feels about things herself rather than what others may think and feel (not meant as an insult). So her asking if Exile cared for Atris romantically those 10 years ago as Jedi doesn't necessarily prove Atris feels that way about Exile though it does add credence to that argument. Now let's examine that quote again: Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." Now, from the first bold-faced part, we know that Atris has feelings for the male Exile. You may question at this point what those feelings are, but you don't get to question that they are there, unless you're adamant about denying Brianna's observations. In the second bit I've put in bold-face, Brianna then goes on to talk about romantic love between jedi. Now, who are we talking about here? It is obvious that Brianna has "heard" of jedi who fall in love and leave the order (that's what her mother did), but she is not talking about Kae and Yusanis in this conversation. She is talking about love *between* jedi - as in both people must be jedi (and Yusanis was not). By the same logic, she is not talking about herself and the Exile either, because at this point Brianna is not a jedi herself (and it may still be doubted whether the Exile is a jedi or something else...). That leaves with only one possible conclusion. She is talking about the Exile and Atris. You have been adamant in denying that the love between is openly there in the game, but it is right here. So as long as you continue to deny it, it seems pointless to me to discuss the matter further. In reading the bold text of Handmaiden's quote, it looks more like she's the one who's trying to start something between Atris and the Exile than Atris herself. I never did any sort of love or hurt feelings from Atris, just jealousy and anger. (I guess another reason why I'm not seeing it is because I'm reading it in terms of a female Exile [one I usually see the Exile as] but that's just how I see that) [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Exactly. Things are thrown in as "by the way..." and that really irks me. We would have no idea Exile taught younglings nor that Exile was to take on a padawan if it wasn't for Mical, and she didn't even recognize him!. i would say that is very significant since Exile leaving had a big impact on people in a personal way, which one would think a player should know about their own character. Exile is reduced to an oblivious and clueless character. With all these things thrown in in that fashion, it seems as if depth was attempted to be added as an afterthought. Actually, I don't think so, because the plot generally seems well thought out and compelling. It's just that it's told badly in these cases. There was a good reason for this in K1, because they made Revan amnesic, and so it was obvious why he could remember nothing of his past. In K2 they make the Exile, ahem, "not amnesic", but it doesn't matter because the player is still kept in the dark. The way to tell a story like that is to bring up all the points that will be important later early in the game, so that the player is at least given a clue as to what his own character has experienced. This can be done through flashback cut-scenes or conversation. For example, Kreia or Atton could have asked the Exile a lot of questions about his past, and the Exile could then choose to answer or dodge the question, but even if he dodged it, the player would still get to see what the answer was from the possible conversation paths and so have this information revealed to him at a point when it doesn't seem quite so significant. In K1 they actually did it more skillfully in the cutscene where Bastila and company "defeat" Revan, because it just looks like plot background thrown in there for dramatic effect, and it isn't until much later that you realize that it is really lost memories resurfacing for your main character. This would have been even easier in K2, since the context is obvious for the Exile's past, but instead it's just abandoned Yeah they could have drawn a bit as to what the Exile's past was, but I guess they decided to let you create your Exile's past in your imagination. Heck, my Exile was born on Corellia... [Jediphile]Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Well, bless me for being an idiot. Never called you that. I just observed that I didn't find the plot to be imcomplete when playing the male Exile... Neither did I with female [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]She states Visas cannot be trusted, Bao-Dur's thoughts are irrelevant just because she can't read them eventhough that is the first time Malachor V's impact is hinted at through his toughts, etc. Visas is loyal, Boa-Dur's thoughts are important, etc. And saying there is no love left in his heart is different than saying he loves her in an idealized way. According to Kreia, Atton doesn't love Exile at all. No, she says there is no love in his heart. She does not say there is no "love" in him at all. Which is why I say that Atton loves the female Exile on a idealized level. He admires her. But he cannot truly love her in the romantic sense. He puts her on a pedestal and worships her as an ideal. He would not accept her love, because it would lower her from that pedestal, and I don't think he could bear that. I thought that Atton was supposed to be the lead romance for the (female) Exile, given all his (and Kreia's comments) about her. I don't see Mical's being all that explored. I thought his was more of an admiration on a Padawan-Master level. [Jediphile]In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i don't have a problem with it. What i do have a problem with is when it is given more weight than anyone elses. It is given more weight because it has heavier impact on the story. All the romance options with the companions (Atton (what little is there), Disciple, Handmaiden, and Visas) is not particularly relevant to the greater plot. You can explore it if you wish, but you don't have to. Atris' feelings for the Exile are fairly significant, however, especially in the male Exile's case. I cannot remember what was to trigger her becoming Darth Traya instead of Kreia, but I'm pretty sure her love for the Exile and Brianna's "betrayal" was probably part of it. Still, that's probably a non-issue, since it was not in the game and shouldn't be, since it didn't make sense for her to suddenly take over all of Kreia's goals. But Atris is still significant, because she is a trigger for Kreia to returning to the postition of Darth Traya. I fail to see how Atris's "love" for the Exile was relevant to the plot. I see it (if it was there) to be equally as important as Sion's, which I think determined his behavior on Malachor V... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]The point of contention with regards to Sion's feelings for Exile was they were not explained. The player has no context of why he cares for her. i said the same is true for Atris. The player has no clue why Atris cares for Exile. One certainly can assume a great many reasons why she might however, we simply do not know. We do not know if they were in close proximity to eachother when Exile was on Dantooine, we do not know if they share a Force bond, we don't even know if she loves him at all unless someone can enlighten us on that. But even if she does, it is not given context either, so given Sion actually speaks with female Exile about his feelings whereas Atris does not speak to male Exile of hers, one cannot dismiss the significance of Sion's impact as a potential romantic involvement. Whatever argument you can make about lack of knowledge about Atris' feelings for the Exile will hurt the female Exile's relationship to Atris far more, because we don't know what that is founded on either. It is far easier to accept that Atris may have secretly loved the male Exile without any details than it is to accept that Atris admired the female Exile without any details of what that was, because that makes no sense in the context of the greater plot of the KotOR games. Revan and Malak are consistently described as the most admired young jedi who left the order to fight the Mandalorian Wars. The Exile, however, was not. And to suddenly throw it in there with no explanation therefore hurts the story. Sure, you could argue that Atris admired the Exile for other reasons than Revan or Malak, but then that begs - no *demands* - the question of what that was. The story therefore becomes woefully incomplete without that informaton. Yet you're perfectly willing to accept that side of it, so that does not seem to me to judge the sides by the same conventions, as you demand that I do. Besides, even if we can rationalize things about the Exile past in Atris' case, the same is not true for Sion. Exile and Atris knew each other. Exile and Sion did not. That means that whatever relationship there is in the latter case *MUST* be there for us to see unfold in the game - there can be no unseen nuances or details, because you play the Exile from beginning to end with no interruptions in which such details might have taken place. The Exile and Sion only ever meet three times. First on Peragus, when they don't even interact. Then on Korriban, where they fight, but don't really talk. And finally on Malachor V, when the do talk, but still try to kill each other. There is no time for a relationship to build, and even there was, it still makes no sense. I mean: Sion: "Gee, I love you, but the plot still says I must kill you. No hard feelings, darling?" Exile: "No, of course not. That's fine, my dear..." It's just so idiotic that it defies belief and insults me as a player at the same time I really didn't see Atris's role in the plot take much of a backstep because the Exile is female. Atris was still relatively central to the plot, and IMO she was still a developed character. Sion would have let the Exile go had she not insisted on seeing Kreia. He knew what Kreia was going to do to her (turn her into a female Sion), and seeing how she was he didn't wan't her to become that. I see that as something similar to what Darth Vader did, when he realized who he really was, and didn't want to be that anymore, however neither one could go back to what they were (both were brutally scarred beyond healing), and like Vader, Sion then wants to become one with the Force upon that realization. It's one of those moments you just don't get with a male Exile. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]And since weight is given to Atris' love by virtue of a possible lengthy time she and Exile knew eachother, than it is impossible to write off Mical's significance to Exile since his connection to her is actually revealed in-game. A padawan-Jedi relationship is a very significant one, from what i can tell. How is that not important and binding? Because even if you're right, the consequence of that observation is that if the female Exile had remained at the academy instead of running off to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, then she should be the last person in the universe to ever teach Mical. His feelings for her means that any emotions for her are doomed in any event, since Jedi may not have such feelings, especially not between master and padawan who have far stronger ties than other jedi do to each other. This would make far more sense if the Exile is male and there is no love in the picture. And so it again hurts the credibility of the plot in the case of the female Exile. Maybe he pulled a Bindo I never saw the love as a sexual sort of relationship, I saw it as more of an admiration relationship, and another one of those "wrongs that she rights (fixes)" and it develops on something that doesn't exist in the male story. Granted, I didn't see him as a romance partner for my Exile, but he does build on the Exile's past, especially when he becomes a Jedi. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]We don't know that they are strangers any more than we know why Atris sees any of the Exile incarnations as a hero. And even if Sion develops feelings for Exile over the course of the game, that does not make it irrelevant. To have an antagonist develop an affinity for the protagonist is usually interesting, especially if the antagonist is aware s/he is going to be put into an unavoidable conflict with the protagonist. As i have said, Sion has potential. The potential I have pointed to above? Excuse me, but I need to find my bucket again... An antagonist having an affinity for the protagonist can be interesting, but only if it has relevance to the plot, and that is not the case here - it in no ways stops Sion from trying to continually kill the Exile. It has no impact or significance to the plot. The only difference is a few spoken lines about Sion's feelings, which are not very compelling, and which I do not find consistent to his character, in which case it hurts him in the plot. See the above statements on Sion - too pressed to rearrange and reorganize [Jediphile]I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Bao-Dur simplifying things, seeing things as he would a schematic so to speak, requires him to be able to see the big picture for him to simplify it. He does not only see bits and pieces, he sees the whole and how it all works, than he reduces it to a manageable size. An engineer has to consider not only the building itself, but also the soil, the weather conditions, the weight of what is being housed in the structure and well as that of those who enter it and the materials used to build it, etc. It also requires complexity of thought to be able to reduce the big into cohesive and workable small. As in math, to simplify one must first expand. So you basically accept my analysis and then just apply the exact opposite conclusion to it? Sorry, but it doesn't seem very plausible to suggest that Bao-Dur is a complex person because he simplifies things. I don't see at all how you can reach that conclusion. It seems more to me like you just throw it in there because you don't like the idea of Bao-Dur being an uncomplicated guy, but in doing so, I think you deny his greatest strength, which is his ability to bring things down to a level where he can deal with them. That ability is what makes him able to deal with his own dark past, while Atton struggles with a burden that is by comparison not so troubling as Bao-Dur's would seem to be. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Any romance would complicate things for him since those feelings cannot so easily be simplified, they cannot be controled, and alot of the time they are irrational. Which is precisely why I prefer no romance between the Exile and Bao-Dur. And that is true in the male Exile's case. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i would think though that Bao-Dur being attracted to his General would have the contradictory effects of both simplifying and complicating. It simplifies things greatly that it was she who ordered the activation of the MSG, which makes it all the more complicated at the same time. They are definitely in that mess together by virtue of their roles with regards to Malachor V. And just because them having feelings for eachother complicates things, doesn't mean it would be out of character for Bao-Dur. i would think someone who understands what he is going through would be a big relief. That does not seem to be a good argument for a female Exile, since Bao-Dur can find just the same understanding and relief from the male Exile - and without the complication of love in there, which probably makes the whole thing more honest and above board. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]It also allows him to find some measure of being able to forgive himself, as you described with Atton, if she sees enough worth in him to love him. I don't see why he would need her to love him in order to find forgiveness. In fact, if she did love him, he would then have to struggle with whether she truly forgave him for his acts or whether she just says so because she loves, takes pity on him, and wants him to not blame himself anymore. And as I've said before, that's why I prefer the male Exile here too. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i don't know if Exile isn't supposed to be repulsed by Bao-Dur though, but i don't mean it in the repulsed by his loving her way as we were discussing before, i mean in the what he represents way. That he can't forgive himself but forgives Exile so easily, that must be hard for Exile to accept. I don't think it's a question of forgiveness. In Bao-Dur's case, I think the past just is, and they have little choice but to live with it. That Bao-Dur doesn't blame the Exile is probably because he feels that he is himself more responsible for having created the MSG in the first place (sort of like Oppenheimer). He doesn't blame the Exile because the Exile did what he/she had to do, and Bao-Dur understands and accepts that. It was war, after all. The Exile, of course, sees it the other way, and does take responsibility, because he/she gave the order. Psychologically they both do the same thing - they accept the responsibility because it somehow gives them control over the situation, and that is easier to accept than that were not to blame, since that makes them apathetic and unable to alter the outcome, their choices void and meaningless. That is why they both understand each other on this level. However, I still think this trauma works better with attraction or love in the picture. That may even be why Bao-Dur was removed from being a romance option for the female Exile. It was the right decision too, I think, but the possibility of it is still there obscuring the matter. I really didn't get ANY sort of notion that Bao-Dur was in any way, in love with the Exile. I think it was more of a soldier-commander relationship, and one of those old buddies relationship, but nothing romantic. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i completely disagree with that. Atton is the only one whose motives are difficult to fathom. Even he isn't certain what they are. *He* isn't certain himself, no. But the Exile is once she has heard his story. Kreia knew ever since the Telos Academy. Kreia manipulates Atton with impunity because he is easy for her to understand. That he isn't certain while both the Exile and Kreia are is precisely why he is simple. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]And a complicated history invariably leads to a complex persona. I disagree. First, it's not a complicated story, it's a troubled story. It does not have multiple facets or factors to it. I mean, Atton can tell it all in one conversation of a few minutes, so how "complicated" can it be? Second, a lengthy story does not necessarily make a person "complex". Sam and Frodo have a huge adventure, but Sam remains a fairly uncomplicated person in spite of it, whereas Frodo does not and falls because of it. Ignorance is bliss for Sam. Why can it not be for Atton as well? [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i didn't take you saying he is simple as an idication you thought he is uninteligent. i took it as you said early: easy to understand. i still cannot see how Atton is simple. He is easy to understand for both the people who learns of his secret (Exile and Kreia). The Exile never asks further questions once Atton's story is revealed. That does suggest that he is easy to understand. But yes, you do need to known his secret before you can understand him. Besides, neither you or I seem to have trouble understanding him. And the only reason Atton "doesn't understand" is because he dare not to - that's what Kreia's threat after the secret comes out is all about - when she can no longer intimidate him with revealing his secret to the Exile, she instead threatens him with revealing the truth of his secret to himself. And Atton seems to accept that threat without even put up a fight. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i concede your sarcasm is mightier than mine and that it doesn't subvert from the discusion, other than when quoting dictionary definitions. That was ironically stating 'Atton isn't an idiot simpleton but you are'. I have never said nor meant that. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i explain it by saying Kreia herself is complex and she likes leaving uncertainty and self-doubt in people. i thought she wouldn't intentionally be redundent, which she would be if she called Atton "an idiot and an imbecile". That is why i thought 'fool' is significant as a term. Might it not be a significant term for a simpler reason? [Jediphile]And how long did that take her? It was not a true struggle, no. The spider had the fly in its web. There was no escape. Yet the spider was amused by the fly's futile attempts to resist and free it self. It played with the fly for its own dark amusement for a moment, revelling in the terror of its victim. But then the delight passed, and the spider got to work on its helpless victim, which then promptly succumbed... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Kreia says to him when she is forcing her way into his mind "you are a slippery one, and your thoughts are difficult even for one such as I to read". Still didn't stop her or even slow her down. Well, it slowed her down, but only as an act of amusement and to prove her superiority. It's like Kreia taking a step back saying, "You wish to fight back? Ha - give it your best. See if I care..." She does not slow down because of Atton's abilities, however, but only to increase his terror and demonstrate her own power and superiority to him. This is one side of Kreia that I really don't like. It's one thing that she is manipulative and opressive, but that she actually enjoys it is even worse. She was Darth Traya all along... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Kreia on one hand knows Atton better than Atton knows Atton, but on the other hand, she knows very little about him. Sure, Atton tries to live a lie, but given his painful past I'm sure anyone would want to do that. It's obvious she doesn't like Atton at all, something that could have many reasons, including Atton's lack of wisdom and his dislike for Kreia's "cryptic answers". Kreia does have power over Atton (despite what she says to him), and a good example is the landing on Dxun, when Kreia tells him when the ship is to be fully repaired. Plus, if Atton was the one enslaving Atton, then I'm sure he would have allowed himself to leave the group after leaving Atris and her Handmaidens DAWUSS Dawes ain't too bright. Hitting rock bottom is when you leave 2 tickets on the dash of your car, leave it unlocked hoping someone will steal them & when you come back, there are 4 tickets on your dashboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]In reading the bold text of Handmaiden's quote, it looks more like she's the one who's trying to start something between Atris and the Exile than Atris herself. How do you figure that? All she does is tell Exile about her observations regarding Atris. There is even a programmer's note that she doesn't want there to be anything between Atris and the Exile when she asks if they were ever close, which clearly points to her being jealous of Atris. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I never did any sort of love or hurt feelings from Atris, just jealousy and anger. (I guess another reason why I'm not seeing it is because I'm reading it in terms of a female Exile [one I usually see the Exile as] but that's just how I see that) I tend to think that's because Atris has fallen so far that she cannot feel real love anymore. She is total denial, and all her true feelings are perverted into something horrible in her own mind. But Brianna can still see it with ease apparently. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]Yeah they could have drawn a bit as to what the Exile's past was, but I guess they decided to let you create your Exile's past in your imagination. Heck, my Exile was born on Corellia... Yes, but that actually makes it worse, since your own choices of what the Exile's past was can be "overruled" by the game. That's not particularly fun to play. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I thought that Atton was supposed to be the lead romance for the (female) Exile, given all his (and Kreia's comments) about her. I don't see Mical's being all that explored. I thought his was more of an admiration on a Padawan-Master level. Nothing ever happens between female Exile and Atton, whereas Mical can talk to female Exile about some of his feelings. That's without the cut content, though... And Mical cannot be said to be there only as a consequence of the padawan-master relationship, because if that were the case, then he would have followed the male Exile as well. So gender is clearly relevant in that case. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I fail to see how Atris's "love" for the Exile was relevant to the plot. I see it (if it was there) to be equally as important as Sion's, which I think determined his behavior on Malachor V... It's relevant because Atris is essential to the evolving plot. She if she loved the Exile, then it becomes important. And how did Sion's love for the female Exile change anything. He said some different things on Korriban and Malachor V, but otherwise there was no change in how it all unfolded - there was no change to the plot because of his presumed feelings. You could make the same argument for Atris, of course, but that is not the case, since she sent the Handmaiden with the male Exile. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I really didn't see Atris's role in the plot take much of a backstep because the Exile is female. Atris was still relatively central to the plot, and IMO she was still a developed character. True, but we knew less of her motives and feelings in the female Exile's story. I sorely lacked answer to the question of what the Exile did to make a master like Atris admire her. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM] Sion would have let the Exile go had she not insisted on seeing Kreia. He knew what Kreia was going to do to her (turn her into a female Sion), and seeing how she was he didn't wan't her to become that. I see that as something similar to what Darth Vader did, when he realized who he really was, and didn't want to be that anymore, however neither one could go back to what they were (both were brutally scarred beyond healing), and like Vader, Sion then wants to become one with the Force upon that realization. It's one of those moments you just don't get with a male Exile. Well, I didn't see it having any impact on the story at all - it all turns out the same way in any event, and the only difference lies in the spoken dialogue. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM] I really didn't get ANY sort of notion that Bao-Dur was in any way, in love with the Exile. I think it was more of a soldier-commander relationship, and one of those old buddies relationship, but nothing romantic. Agreed. But in the female Exile's case, it is still likely to be considered by the player. But I do agree with you that there isn't and shouldn't be any romance between the female Exile and Bao-Dur. It's just not that sort of relationship. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]Kreia on one hand knows Atton better than Atton knows Atton, but on the other hand, she knows very little about him. Sure, Atton tries to live a lie, but given his painful past I'm sure anyone would want to do that. It's obvious she doesn't like Atton at all, something that could have many reasons, including Atton's lack of wisdom and his dislike for Kreia's "cryptic answers". Yes, I'd agree with most of that. Kreia only bothers to learn what she needs to control Atton. She doesn't care about the rest. She could find out easily, but she just doesn't care. And as you say, Atton lives a life of denial because the alternative is too painful. He does not do it because he's an idiot who doesn't understand himself. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]Kreia does have power over Atton (despite what she says to him), and a good example is the landing on Dxun, when Kreia tells him when the ship is to be fully repaired. Plus, if Atton was the one enslaving Atton, then I'm sure he would have allowed himself to leave the group after leaving Atris and her Handmaidens I guess the presumption is that by that time he had been so strongly force-bonded to the Exile that it was no longer his own choice. And note how Atton seems to lose control of himself when the Exile attacks someone innocent. But yes, Kreia does try to enslave and impress her power over Atton. How she manipulates and uses him as her pawn is one thing I really don't like about Kreia. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekate Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 (edited) As i was re-reading the posts, i realized something was misinterpreted from what i said. It was with regards to Mical and his not having a teacher. i'll put it in here and point out what went wrong: "The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... " It was clear to me when i wrote it that i was refering to how could Mical mistake such an important thing - meaning how could he not know if there were more teachers. i didn't even catch it in why you got angry, Jediphile, that it sounded to you as it i was saying how could you make such a mistake. i really was speaking of Mical and not you. It does sound bad when heard the other way. i am sorry about that confusion. [Jediphile]Now let's examine that quote again: Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." Now, from the first bold-faced part, we know that Atris has feelings for the male Exile. You may question at this point what those feelings are, but you don't get to question that they are there, unless you're adamant about denying Brianna's observations. Agreed [Jediphile]In the second bit I've put in bold-face, Brianna then goes on to talk about romantic love between jedi. Now, who are we talking about here? It is obvious that Brianna has "heard" of jedi who fall in love and leave the order (that's what her mother did), but she is not talking about Kae and Yusanis in this conversation. She is talking about love *between* jedi - as in both people must be jedi (and Yusanis was not). By the same logic, she is not talking about herself and the Exile either, because at this point Brianna is not a jedi herself (and it may still be doubted whether the Exile is a jedi or something else...). That leaves with only one possible conclusion. She is talking about the Exile and Atris. i get to this point further below... In my last post i stated Brianna asked Atris why Exile (regardless of which sex) has such and effect on her. She also states she has never seen Atris that disturbed before. Atris's own answer is the same regardless of Exile's sex, the whole cut-scene is the same regardless of Exile's sex. Atris says: "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside." That is the reason Atris is affected by Exile so deeply. That applies even if Exile is male. Now, let us indeed examine Brianna's quote in more detail: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss...." This is a sex-neutral statement. Atris herself said Exile is a hero to her. Atris preceiving the fall of her hero affected her deeply, and she feels loss as a result. Could it be infering Atris loved Exile and she feels his loss in the romantic way? Yes, of course it could. But that is the point. It is an assumption. "...It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit..." The choice of word "burns" does carry potential connotations of an attraction inclination. However, burns often to refers to anger as well ie: he felt a burning rage. The fact that it has been 10 years is not anymore significant in this dialogue as it was in Atris' first dialogue on Telos. Atris is proud, and Exile having left the Jedi Order hurting her is probably, at least in part, because she felt Exile turned her/his back on not only the Jedi, but on Atris specifically. Feeling one's hero's rejection is painful. Certainly it would have hurt her. As above these things can be indicative of romantic feelings. But they are not explicitly reserved for them. "...It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself..." Obviously Atris cannot come to terms with how she feels about Exile, nor the effect Exile has on her. She resorts to doing insane things at least in part because of it. We do not know if she fell because of her feelings for Exile, she might have fallen anyway. The very fact she has come to lay such importance on another person would be indicative she has some psychological issues, especially in light of the Jedi Code of detattachment, and the fact she was a Jedi Master. For Exile to have come to bear such a great meaning to Atris to the point where Atris has difficulty separating them as individuals required either an intence inherent flaw on the part of Atris' psyche, which most likely would have ruled her out as a Jedi Master candidate, or some life altering event occured wherein she came to irrevokably see the Exile as an extension of herself. Neither of those precludes hero worship nor attraction. Both are possible as the cause. However we do know, for both male and female Exile, Atris says the same line about dying inside when heros fall. That means regardless of the attraction or not, Atris saw Exile as a hero. That is the only solid piece of history between them the player gets to learn. Again, it is possible her obsession could have been made stronger due to attraction. But that is not necessarily the case. Wether Atris loved Exile romantically or not has little bearing on the story other than if she did, it would explain why Brianna was sent along. But one could also look at it in the light that Atris distrusts male Exile more than female Exile so that is why she sent Brianna along. i am not saying that is the case, i am only saying it hasn't been revealed in game therefore we do not know. The question of the significance of Atris loving Exile also comes into play. As i mentioned above, it is completely not important in the story progression if she does love male Exile. Everything unfolds the same with regards to Atris in the story. It may be easier to understand what went on in the Telos academy after Dantooine if she does. On the other hand, it seems not to really matter 'cause she does the same thing no matter which Exile incarnation confronts her. She slays all her servants even when it is a LS Exile. It may also very well be more interesting, compelling, whatever, to people if she loves him. On the other hand, it may be more compelling if Atris loved Brianna and sent her to join Exile and company as a test of her loyalty and to see if she would remain the pure maiden Atris envisioned her to be. That could also explain why Atris hurt Brianna but did not kill her. Who knows? Now, for Brianna's questions: "...You... you did not care for her, did you?..." It would seem Exile's answer to that question is what is important here. And in every possible answer, IIRC, it is a 'no'. Which then prompts Brianna explaining why she asked with: "...Atris is beautiful. And wise..." Indicative of Brianna's feelings of not measuring up the the ideal of Atris she has come to see in her. It could be her saying that to gauge Exile's reaction as well. It could be Brianna naively aiding Atris' cause rather than her own by reminding Exile at a less favourable time of Atris' appeal if she (Brianna) wanted to make herself a potential love interest to him. Or it could be she is testing him and pushing him a little to see if he'll take the bait. We don't know because the devs for whatever reason were satisfied to leave all these things vague and not to explain much of anything. We know Brianna is attracted to Exile. We know Brianna looks up to Atris. We know Brianna has made a vow not to follow the Jedi teachings, and she has a history wherein her loyalty is very important. It would seem obvious Brianna does not want Exile to have had a personal sexual relationship wtih Atris. So her asking about it makes sense. She even asks about it hesitantly because obviously, it is a difficult subject to broach. Brianna may very well suspect Atris has an attraction to Exile, but her asking about it does not prove Atris did. She doesn't say "I had thought you would have been pulling a Bindo" nor any other definite statement where she indicates Atris definitely loved Exile. Moreover, she asks Exile if he cared for Atris. That is her primary concern. Not if Atris cared for him. Since Atris is the mistress and she presents herself as "the last Jedi" and as an educated, good-hearted, concerned for the wellfare of the galaxy kind of person, it would make sense Brianna asks because she wants to know how she measures up to Atris. A jealousy and rivalry thing. We already know Brianna gets very jealous of Visas. Brianna states Atris is beautiful and so on. These would indicate Brianna asking is about herself and her own feelings moreso than because she believes Atris loved Exile. Also, i doubt Atris would have told anyone if she did. So someone suspecting it is not proof it was there. Again, i add it can be interpreted in the way you stated Jediphile. i am not disagreeing with that point at all. All i'm saying is there are many other interpretations as well. "...I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret..." *warning sign held out: humour ahead. Ensure safety procautions taken* She has "heard" indeed... *danger has passed, resume usual reading* It seems as if she is speaking of her mother here. She said loving "another" rather than "eachother". And this is exactly what her mother and father did. They kept it secret and her mother specifically left the Jedi Order. None of that applies to Atris nor Exile. Since her personal history is so important to her whereas whether Atris loves Exile is speculation, i would argue she is thinking of that rather than of Exile and Atris. And i argue it not to be argumentative, rather i argue it because it seems as if that is much more important to her than Atris' love life. "...I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see..." This is just info gathering and her restating her interest in Exile by re-expressing she wanted to know if he had been involved. And she doesn't say with Atris, just an involved in general. [Jediphile]You have been adamant in denying that the love between is openly there in the game, but it is right here. So as long as you continue to deny it, it seems pointless to me to discuss the matter further. Yes i have, and i still do because of the points i made above, and that it is never actually said. And the reason this is a point of contention at all is the point that when Sion and Atris are compared directly to eachother on that basis, Sion actually speaks his feelings. He doesn't actually say he loves her. But it is included as a romance aspect because there is a distinct difference in how Sion speaks to male vs female Exile. From the information we have gathered, there is no such distinction in Atris' speach. i can understand why you are frustrated, i am frustrated too. It must be seen as just as blarringly obvious to you Atris loves Exile, as her love for him seems equally obscure to me. Perhaps they left it intentionally unstated specifically to be able to reconcile Atris' actions regardless of Exile's sex. But they went ahead and had Bastila love male Revan and not female Revan, so i do doubt they would withold saying it directly on that basis. i know they are different developers and the game was terribly cut and unfinished. But we can only know by what has been revealed in the game and somewhat in the left-over content in the programming. Given that, the fact is Atris is just as passionate about Exile even if Exile is female. The only reason any of this matters is if Atris is counted as a love interest in the first place. It is not as if Exile gets to declare his love or to reject her. Those simply aren't options. So way back when this debate began on page one and female Exile was said to be lesser to male Exile on the basis of the romances, i got irked at the dismissiveness of the reasoning for it so i voiced why that is not necessarily true. We seem to be coming to cross purposes over Brianna. To make things clear; i did not say Brianna is useless nor pointless, nor anything like that. In the early posts, the specific comparisson between Brianna's and Mical's past ties to Exile was drawn. It was not about one being better than the other, it was about which one had a tie to Exile's past. Period. That is all. Mical has a significant, direct link to Exile (ie potential padawan). Brianna does not (never knew Exile personally). No judgement. No putting down. In whatever way that point is used to argue male vs female Exile is a different matter. [Jediphile]Calling that weakness only has meaning if Leia was helpless. I do not agree that she was. But she's a diplomat, whereas Luke is a jedi knight. Diplomacy takes time. Luke didn't give her that time, so it's unfair to mark Leia as weak because Luke couldn't be bothered to give her time to make her diplomacy work. You completely forget that Leia tells 3PO to translate, and when the Ewoks still won't listen, Luke cuts Leia off and tells 3PO to tell the Ewoks that he'll be angry and use his magic if they don't listen. i just rewatched that scene and you are right, i had forgotten she does try diplomacy. She says "3-PO tell them they must be set free". The Ewoks disregard that suggestion and then proceed to bring out the torches. She doesn't say anything and just watches from that point on. When i wrote my post i remembered the time between her speaking and the time it took Luke to come up with his plan as being longer than it really was, so her inaction seemed more pronounced. Luke did not cut Leia off though, and she did just stay silent when they brought out the torches. But my argument about her weakness does not stem from if she were held captive. A captive can only do so much by the fact they are being held captive. i meant because she isn't held captive and does nothing more than one attempt at intervening, that to me seemed to weaken her role. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] It wouldn't matter if every single one of the those captured by the Ewoks were female and if it was Luke who was enslaved by Jabba instead. In that case Luke's predicament would have been more humiliating, moreso if he was forced to wear only a codpiece. Luke actively prevented Han from getting violent with the Ewoks so their capture was not from them being incompetent. Luke could lift the massive door into Jabba's place so certainly he could have knocked all the Ewoks on their butts if he had wanted to. It shouldn't be overly personally humiliating for them to have been captured in that way when they allowed it to happen. Being tied up and carried on a pole is humiliating, but Leia was chained around her neck, treated as a slave, and as a sexual object. That is more humiliating, especially with a crowd of unsavoury spectators to gawk and leer and her humiliation lasted longer than theirs. [Jediphile]Han sure didn't seem to me to feel that way while the Ewoks were trying to light a fire under him... *Hekate puts up a warning sign: caution: joke ahead* i thought Han was pretty busy thinking "Put it out! Put it out!!" *Hekate removes warning sign* [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]As far as the thong goes... it is a point of contention for me. It was not so much that it was in there as opposed to its execution. And it is a repeated theme in the SW universe i've been exposed to and i find it irksome. [Jediphile]Fair enough, but that's your own personal opinion. I don't really disagree, I just don't think it's particularly relevant to the discussion. Then why take issue with my issue with it in the first place? It is there in the game and it is annoying. It is also demeaning to the characters in its execution, and to the players by suggesting the product will sell better if they throw in Brianna in... that attire as well as forcing that Vogga scene. It is also relevant to the topic of male vs female Exile since it has been mentioned in other threads being able to see Brianna... so clothed is a reason male Exile should be made cannon. [Jediphile]Actually, I don't think so, because the plot generally seems well thought out and compelling. It's just that it's told badly in these cases. There was a good reason for this in K1, because they made Revan amnesic, and so it was obvious why he could remember nothing of his past. In K2 they make the Exile, ahem, "not amnesic", but it doesn't matter because the player is still kept in the dark. The way to tell a story like that is to bring up all the points that will be important later early in the game, so that the player is at least given a clue as to what his own character has experienced. This can be done through flashback cut-scenes or conversation. For example, Kreia or Atton could have asked the Exile a lot of questions about his past, and the Exile could then choose to answer or dodge the question, but even if he dodged it, the player would still get to see what the answer was from the possible conversation paths and so have this information revealed to him at a point when it doesn't seem quite so significant. In K1 they actually did it more skillfully in the cutscene where Bastila and company "defeat" Revan, because it just looks like plot background thrown in there for dramatic effect, and it isn't until much later that you realize that it is really lost memories resurfacing for your main character. This would have been even easier in K2, since the context is obvious for the Exile's past, but instead it's just abandoned Agreed [Jediphile]Never called you that. I just observed that I didn't find the plot to be imcomplete when playing the male Exile... It was a joke. Trying to lighten the mood. A character in BGII says "Well, bless me for being an idiot" so i thought i'd follow suit by taking a jab at myself since i did not understand the whole wound in the Force and echoes plots with all the contradictions inherent in the game the first time around, and i sitll don't past the 7th time around. My humour attempt was foiled again, i see [Jediphile]It is given more weight because it has heavier impact on the story. All the romance options with the companions (Atton (what little is there), Disciple, Handmaiden, and Visas) is not particularly relevant to the greater plot. You can explore it if you wish, but you don't have to. Atris' feelings for the Exile are fairly significant, however, especially in the male Exile's case. I cannot remember what was to trigger her becoming Darth Traya instead of Kreia, but I'm pretty sure her love for the Exile and Brianna's "betrayal" was probably part of it. Still, that's probably a non-issue, since it was not in the game and shouldn't be, since it didn't make sense for her to suddenly take over all of Kreia's goals. But Atris is still significant, because she is a trigger for Kreia to returning to the postition of Darth Traya. Atris in indeed significant. Agreed. Atris' love for Exile is not for the reasons i probably over explained above. If Atris did become Darth Traya because of her love for male Exile, than hell yeah, that would be uber-significant. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] The point of contention with regards to Sion's feelings for Exile was they were not explained. The player has no context of why he cares for her. i said the same is true for Atris. The player has no clue why Atris cares for Exile. One certainly can assume a great many reasons why she might however, we simply do not know. We do not know if they were in close proximity to eachother when Exile was on Dantooine, we do not know if they share a Force bond, we don't even know if she loves him at all unless someone can enlighten us on that. But even if she does, it is not given context either, so given Sion actually speaks with female Exile about his feelings whereas Atris does not speak to male Exile of hers, one cannot dismiss the significance of Sion's impact as a potential romantic involvement. [Jediphile]Whatever argument you can make about lack of knowledge about Atris' feelings for the Exile will hurt the female Exile's relationship to Atris far more, because we don't know what that is founded on either. Um, no. i am loathe to requote but since it is short i will Atris: "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside" which applies equally to both sexes. [Jediphile]It is far easier to accept that Atris may have secretly loved the male Exile without any details than it is to accept that Atris admired the female Exile without any details of what that was, because that makes no sense in the context of the greater plot of the KotOR games. Revan and Malak are consistently described as the most admired young jedi who left the order to fight the Mandalorian Wars. The Exile, however, was not. And to suddenly throw it in there with no explanation therefore hurts the story. Sure, you could argue that Atris admired the Exile for other reasons than Revan or Malak, but then that begs - no *demands* - the question of what that was. The story therefore becomes woefully incomplete without that informaton. While it is true no one can control whom they love, it's also true no one can control whom they admire nor feel a kinship to. Feelings are feelings. Attraction, lust, love, are not the only intence and not based on reason emotions. i accept it is easier for you to accept Atris loves Exile as opposed to Atris hero worshipping Exile. i find both equally acceptable. While it would be interesting to know what happened to make Atris value Exile so highly, i don't feel it is necessary. That Atris is as upset about it as she is, that Atris told Brianna she thinks of Exile as a hero is enough to get the point across. If we were to want other things to be explained, we would be left equally wanting since so many things are left in the dark. Now, to make a connection to this particular ability to accept love without requiring and explanation, i present Sion. Except he does explain why he finds her beautiful, he does explain what he sees in her. Why he doesn't see that in male Exile since they are in essence the same person? i don't know. Maybe he has a weakness for female Jedi. Now going back to Atris, we know she respects Exile regardless of Exile's sex. We do not get an explination of why she would love male Exile. When contrasting the two, Sion's 'romance' arc, how it played out in-game, was apparent and direct. Atris' unfortunately, was not. [Jediphile]Yet you're perfectly willing to accept that side of it, so that does not seem to me to judge the sides by the same conventions, as you demand that I do. How is it judging the sides by different conventions? Of course i am perfectly willing to accept Atris sees Exile as a hero because she said so herself. i didn't make that up. She does not say she finds him attractive, nor does she tell him she loves him, nor any of that. Sion does tell Exile he cares about her. i didn't make that up either. There is no bias in stating those facts. There is no differential in what i have stated. There isn't even a judgement call involved with that. [Jediphile]Besides, even if we can rationalize things about the Exile past in Atris' case, the same is not true for Sion. Exile and Atris knew each other. Exile and Sion did not. That means that whatever relationship there is in the latter case *MUST* be there for us to see unfold in the game - there can be no unseen nuances or details, because you play the Exile from beginning to end with no interruptions in which such details might have taken place. The Exile and Sion only ever meet three times. First on Peragus, when they don't even interact. Then on Korriban, where they fight, but don't really talk. And finally on Malachor V, when the do talk, but still try to kill each other. There is no time for a relationship to build, and even there was, it still makes no sense. I mean: Sion: "Gee, I love you, but the plot still says I must kill you. No hard feelings, darling?" Exile: "No, of course not. That's fine, my dear..." It's just so idiotic that it defies belief and insults me as a player at the same time Oi. i never said it is the most cohesive story plot on the planet. Nor did i say it fits in with any romantic ideal. Sion's a mess. Both in his body and head. Some people will be put off by it, and some people will find it compelling. Just as some people will find Atris' romance plot repulsive, and others compelling. By your own admission, love and attraction are not feelings one can control. So Sion feels love for female Exile because he just does. i do not understand why if Sion developed those feelings throughout the game, we must have been shown it unfold. Technically though, they do in a way with him letting her go on Korriban saying she deserves at least that, and then on Malachor V he tells her why he cares about. He has had a long time to think things over and to think about her. She is more important to Kreia than he is. That draws him to her. They don't show that in cut-scenes throughout the game, but they do have him state it in-game. It is possible it was cut content and they intended to add alot more with their backstory. As a player i found it odd that was suddenly there, and even more odd when she had the choice of telling him he has been a presence in her mind as well. That would indicate they were thinking of eachother and they were somehow connected at the very least. But since the player isn't given a feel for Exile with many things, this being one of them, i just accepted it, as i accepted Exile had fought on Dxun, because it was one of the precious few things that did not have a contradiction in it. i could actually understand it. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] And since weight is given to Atris' love by virtue of a possible lengthy time she and Exile knew eachother, than it is impossible to write off Mical's significance to Exile since his connection to her is actually revealed in-game. A padawan-Jedi relationship is a very significant one, from what i can tell. How is that not important and binding? [Jediphile]Because even if you're right, the consequence of that observation is that if the female Exile had remained at the academy instead of running off to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, then she should be the last person in the universe to ever teach Mical. His feelings for her means that any emotions for her are doomed in any event, since Jedi may not have such feelings, especially not between master and padawan who have far stronger ties than other jedi do to each other. This would make far more sense if the Exile is male and there is no love in the picture. And so it again hurts the credibility of the plot in the case of the female Exile. i see it as a bit of a stretch to go as far as saying it hurts the credibility of the plot if Mical loves her. The same plot hurting potential holds true for Atris. i know we've been through the question of why a Jedi Master loving a Jedi is not plot hurting whereas a padawan having a thing for his potential master is. The fact it could contribute to her fall does not prevent the origin of either of their feelings from being of equal worth. The reason Mical having had feelings for female Exile isn't a big enough of a deal to break the plot nor to hurt the credibility of the plot is because he was a kid at the time. He had some feelings of attraction for her. But they weren't insane all consuming feelings. Nor hero worshipping obsession as with Atris. They seemed to be more of respect and admiration as atested to when he tells her she is a natural leader and a the younglings she taught could feel it. That does not translate into unhealthy sexual perversion. As he aged, he likely would master his feelings better. And if not, than that would then have had to be dealt with, or they might even have pulled a Bindo. But none of that really matters since it is speculation and can hardly be used as a reason to discredit the in-game plot. The other point is, just because Exile is female doesn't necessarily mean Mical did like her when he was younger. My inclination is to believe he had a bit of a crush on her, but it isn't actually stated. She did leave a lasting impression on him though. And that is what enriches their background story. [Jediphile]The potential I have pointed to above? Excuse me, but I need to find my bucket again... An antagonist having an affinity for the protagonist can be interesting, but only if it has relevance to the plot, and that is not the case here - it in no ways stops Sion from trying to continually kill the Exile. It has no impact or significance to the plot. The only difference is a few spoken lines about Sion's feelings, which are not very compelling, and which I do not find consistent to his character, in which case it hurts him in the plot. *Warning: humourous intent ahead* So, i take it you don't like Sion then? *Humourous attempt complete* Again, back to the multitude of other occurences which turn out the same regardless of the choices the protagonist makes. The first large one that comes to mind: all the Jedi Masters get killed no matter what Exile does. Next one: Kreia dies no matter what Exile does even if in the LS rendition she just does so seemingly without cause. Next: Peragus gets blown up regardless of what Exile does. There are more, as i'm sure you are well aware of. And a few spoken lines is more than Atris gets with regards to her loving Exile. In the cut content, Sion becomes very relevant to the plot, but until Team Gizka finishes the restoration, we simply won't know. That wasn't the point though. The point was in an earlier post it was stated he turned to the dark side because of Padme. [Jediphile]Please don't infer that I said that. You're ignoring that I said Anakin used Padme as a catalyst for turning to the dark side. I never said it was Padme's responsibility, and I don't think it's paritcularly polite to twist my words to suggest that I did so, and then proceeding to disagree with me on that basis. i was basing it on this quote: "Well, we disagree there. We saw Anakin fall because he loved Padme and couldn't bear to lose her. That Atris (cold ice-queen that she is...) should have a similar fate appeals to me i interpreted that as saying he fell because of Padme. i should have been more specific with qualifying the statement further since there are various interpretations possible to the basic fell because of Padme satetement. So i'll say i didn't mean to infer you were saying it was her fault he chose to do what he did. i just meant i thought you were saying he wouldn't have fallen if she hadn't been in the picture. i was tracing the Padme argument back in my previous post to explain why the Sandpeople slaughter did not have anything to do with the earlier issue of Anakin's fall being due to Padme. *grumble* difficult to convey meaning without body language and tone of voice to judge *grumble* [Jediphile]Once Visas confronts the Exile, however, Nihilus' control over her is broken, and becomes far more determined and self-aware. And she becomes dedicated to the goal of destroying Nihilus, so that other worlds will not suffer the same fate as Katarr. Visas is willing to destroy herself in the pursuit of that goal, because in some ways she feels guilt over having survived when all others on Katarr died. [Hekate]Yes. And that is why i thought she was easier for Exile to read and why Exile wouldn't be too worried about her betraying him. [Jediphile] Sorry, but that makes no sense to me... Since she is dedicated to stopping Nihilus, there would be no reason for her to betray Exile since they share the same goal. [Jediphile]I may see this side of Visas, but then I'm rationalizing after knowing the full story. I really was unsure all the way through playing the game, so I doubt the Exile was ever certain of this, because I sure wasn't. i find that interesting, because as i stated before, i had no doubt whatsoever of her dedication to Exile in the first run through. i guess in part that is because with Visas, the more Exile spoke with her, the more she opened-up about herself and she spoke more of why she is loyal to Exile. i did doubt Atton though, especially after he revealed that part of his history. i guess that is in part because Exile could never know if he was lying nor to what extent, Atton kept voicing his discontent with the situation and seemed edgy and as if he wanted to leave, and he openly mistrusted everybody. Then when the secret came out, he could have bolted because it not only is "it's what i do", but also because he doesn't like to be manipulated and Kreia was really pushing him hard. The other reason is because as a Sith assassin, he got alot of control over people. With Exile, he had a distinct lack of being the one in control. Those are some of the reasons i thought he'd take off. [Jediphile]No, that doesn't add up for me, since that would suggest Atris only ever admired the Exile, and not Kavar, Vandar, Zhar, Kae, Zez-Kai Ell, Revan, or anyone else we can think of. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Admiration without explanation is not convincing enough. Love, however, is. And that doesn't add up for me because she can easily admire a whole slew of people, but she saw Exile as a hero and not the others. i doubt on could explain hero worship much easier than love anyway. It is just something that 'clicks', it just happens. [Jediphile]I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Bao-Dur simplifying things, seeing things as he would a schematic so to speak, requires him to be able to see the big picture for him to simplify it. He does not only see bits and pieces, he sees the whole and how it all works, than he reduces it to a manageable size. An engineer has to consider not only the building itself, but also the soil, the weather conditions, the weight of what is being housed in the structure and well as that of those who enter it and the materials used to build it, etc. It also requires complexity of thought to be able to reduce the big into cohesive and workable small. As in math, to simplify one must first expand. [Jediphile]So you basically accept my analysis and then just apply the exact opposite conclusion to it? LOL Yes, actually, that is exactly what i am doing. i found how you explained it very interesting and appropriate for Bao-Dur. He himself says he sees things as parts. The only area we diverge on is the conclusion. i think one has to have complex thought processes to see things in webs to be able to understand how things interact, rather than a linear thought process of simple reduction. [Jediphile]Sorry, but it doesn't seem very plausible to suggest that Bao-Dur is a complex person because he simplifies things. I don't see at all how you can reach that conclusion. It seems more to me like you just throw it in there because you don't like the idea of Bao-Dur being an uncomplicated guy, but in doing so, I think you deny his greatest strength, which is his ability to bring things down to a level where he can deal with them. That ability is what makes him able to deal with his own dark past, while Atton struggles with a burden that is by comparison not so troubling as Bao-Dur's would seem to be. i reach that conclusion because as stated above, he can see the big picture, how things connect, and how to manipulate the big into manageable and cohesive small parts. And it is exactly what you say about him breaking things down to where he can manage them that i think requires alot of awareness and understanding to be able to do. Taking apart a machine, for instance, to keep track of the parts to be able te re-assemble it, one has to understand how to group the parts together. To be able to do that properly, one has to be able to see how the machine works, what each part's function is, and how they relate to all the others. Alot of people have tunnel vision, and when they look at that metaphorical machine, they get lost because they cannot fathom the complexity of the machine. Bao-Dur not only sees it, he can manipulate it so he can better handle it. He thinks on many different levels and sees things from many different perspectives. It is a shame he is given so little dialogue in the game. But he, moreso than the rest of the cast, really understands himself, i think. And to be able to do that, he has to be able to see clearly and to be able to take all these various factors into consideration and see how they intreact with eachother. But that is just how i see it. [Jediphile]Which is precisely why I prefer no romance between the Exile and Bao-Dur. And that is true in the male Exile's case. i don't get why complicating things for him is bad. i think it might just be the stimulous he needs to shake him out of his veneer of calm and deal with things he hasn't been able to since some of those have to do with how others perceive him and his feeling he cannot be loved by another. Atton has similar difficulties but in different ways. [Jediphile]That does not seem to be a good argument for a female Exile, since Bao-Dur can find just the same understanding and relief from the male Exile - and without the complication of love in there, which probably makes the whole thing more honest and above board. i think the exact opposite would be true. That he isn't being shaken by attraction allows him to keep himself removed, almost emotionally and psychologically sterilized if you will, and that ultimately is worse for him. But once attraction is thrown in, by the very nature of that depth of intimacy, it would force him out of his comfort zone and he would certainly be challenged by it, but he would also grow. And growth is good And the fact he would be intimate with someone who understands his terrible karmic burden would be soulagent (sorry, slipped into French...) a mix of soothing and unburdening, which makes for less resistance to his being able to become intimate at all. [Jediphile]I don't see why he would need her to love him in order to find forgiveness. In fact, if she did love him, he would then have to struggle with whether she truly forgave him for his acts or whether she just says so because she loves, takes pity on him, and wants him to not blame himself anymore. And as I've said before, that's why I prefer the male Exile here too. i don't get it why nor how with female's Exile's romance options, they all are in doubt and that love between them would compromise the integrity of the characters and the plot. Atton and Bao-Dur both wouldn't believe she loves them and it would be detrimental if she did, and Mical was to be her padawan so that is wrong, and Sion doesn't have enough grounds to love her so that also is not acceptable. i am saddened by this i find Atton, Bao-Dur, and Sion have very dark and disturbing histories and connections to Exile, with alot of potential for very powerful interactions and meaningful storytelling. With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. i don't think Atton so much idealizes Exile and sees her as perfection, although i do agree he sees she is dealing with her karmic burden better than he is dealing with his and he is a bit jealous of that, but he also sees her as a bit of a monster as he sees himself. It is a less personal and intimate type of monster, but that distance from it, that sterility of sorts (which Exile shares a bit with Bao-Dur), is the difference between them too. His is more raw, but also more honest. She has the calming effect of the Force and having had her lifetime being trained in it. Atton is disconnected and seeking to be connected. But he is terrified of it even in his being drawn to it. i thought the romantic/intimate interactions and possibilities among the guys were quite significant, moving, complex, and deep. [Jediphile]I don't think it's a question of forgiveness. In Bao-Dur's case, I think the past just is, and they have little choice but to live with it. That Bao-Dur doesn't blame the Exile is probably because he feels that he is himself more responsible for having created the MSG in the first place (sort of like Oppenheimer). He doesn't blame the Exile because the Exile did what he/she had to do, and Bao-Dur understands and accepts that. It was war, after all. The Exile, of course, sees it the other way, and does take responsibility, because he/she gave the order. Psychologically they both do the same thing - they accept the responsibility because it somehow gives them control over the situation, and that is easier to accept than that were not to blame, since that makes them apathetic and unable to alter the outcome, their choices void and meaningless. That is why they both understand each other on this level. Yup. But i think his not blaming Exile at all and rather blaming himself entirely is a little delusional. [Jediphile]However, I still think this trauma works better with attraction or love in the picture. That may even be why Bao-Dur was removed from being a romance option for the female Exile. It was the right decision too, I think, but the possibility of it is still there obscuring the matter. i feel the same way you do about Bao-Dur and Exile as i do about Visas and Exile. i think her trauma is far too severe for her to be able to really be able to cope with intimacy. i think it might have a chance down the road, after she has had a while to sort things out after she had partially been able to make peace with herself on the Ravager. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i keep insisting on the fact we have no clue how Atris came to be attracted to male Exile nor why because it is fact. And that this very same aspect of the player not knowing why Sion cares for female Exile is enough to discount him, than that has to apply to Atris too. That was the point i was making. It is wrong to apply different standards under the same point. [Jediphile]But apparently not where Atris' admiration for the female Exile is concerned? Be careful - standards can be double-edged swords... " *danger: humour flailing wildly* Yes, they can, when one is not careful... *flailing has decisited* Sion does explain why he cares for Exile. Atris does explain her respecting Exile by stating she sees Exile as a hero. [Jediphile]Brianna revealed it, as I have already pointed out. If you refuse to accept that, then the discussion is pointless. Countered above. [Jediphile]No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. He brings background history to Exile. He brings Jedi history to the story. He ties the Republic in directly to the Jedi and the search for them which is directly related to what Exile is doing. He states the worlds the Jedi Masters are hidden on are connected and they together resonate the echoes amplifying their effect and that will lead to the death of the Force. Kreia tells him directly Exile is the cause of this effect and that she must die to which Mical tells her he will not let her harm Exile. He states Revan was attempting to unify the galaxy which then adds context to Kreia's comment on how Revan knew the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i am not ignoring nor dismissing the fact Brianna's parents have ties to Revan and to Malahor V. Exile has a tie to Kae if she was a soldier under her/him, and if Kae was killed because of the MSG. Yusanis is tied to Revan and not Exile since he was the leader of the Echani and had his own command. We do not know if Yusanis and Exile were aquainted or not, though since it isn't mentioned, as with Kae, it is likely they were not aquainted. The original disagreement was that Brianna had no first-hand personal ties to Exile's past. She still doesn't. That her parents did means little since that would be like saying hypothetically if she knew Master Kavar that would link her and Exile. It wouldn't. That would only mean they know a person in common. [Jediphile]For the life of me I cannot understand why Brianna must have direct relevance to the Exile's past to be considered a valid character. I really do not get why you insist that she must in order to have relevance. In fact, I think the opposite is true - if any and all characters in the game must - by whatever means - have direct relevance to the Exile's past, then the plot becomes convoluted and implausible. The Exile is not the center of the universe that everything resolves around, nor should he or she be. It is far more interesting that some of the characters have their own rich stories that add nuances to unfolding plot. i am not saying she does have to have direct relevance to Exile's past. *mild frustration* i know i write alot in attempting to explain things, but i wonder if it is being read. *moving along* i have stated numerous times that is only one point of comparisson, which going back numerous posts (of various authors) pertained to a Brianna-Mical "showdown" of sorts wherein Mical's importance was being questioned.. That is all. And i agree with the rest of what you said. [Hekate]Brianna is personally tied to Atris, that is true. And Atris it tied to Exile. But until Brianna met Exile, other than Atris' obsession with him and all that is related to that, he meant nothing to her, nor she to him. And that was used to as a basis to contrast that to Mical who indeed had personal ties to Exile. It is a fair comparisson to make. Just as it is fair to make the comparisson that Brianna has a tie to Atris that Mical doesn't.Actually, he does. Substitute Mical with Atton. What are you confused about? If it is at how Mical has a tie to Atris that would be through the Dantooine academy assuming that is where she was as well and not on Coruscant. [Jediphile]No, Kavar's relationship with the Exile is immaterial. He is no more or less significant than, say, Zez-Kai Ell. So that is a non-issue. "...it is important to their relationship" Them being tied in that way, and that he refers to Exile as 'friend' indicates they have a different type of relationship than Exile has with the other Masters. Is it earth shattering? No. But does it cary meaning? Yes. He is the only Jedi Master to be on closer terms to Exile therefore his death would cary more weight than the others'. [Jediphile]It's just another gaping plot-hole for poor Mical, though one that I can thankfully sidestep by simply playing a male Exile. LOL [Jediphile]Well, excuse me for pointing out gaping plot holes... I shall endeavour not to do such heinous acts in the future ***see note on top of page**** [Hekate] Was that *choked with emotion* sarcasm? Et tu Jediphile, et tu. i refered to your sarcasm thusly since you later told me not to be sarcastic. But i do understand why you got angry. gomen nasai. [Jediphile]A dog tends to bite when you repeatedly step on its tail... Besides, implying that someonebiased is trolling, since you cannot in good faith expect a constructive response. And it's poison to the discussion. If I see a plothole I will point it out, and if the other side then responds with accusations, then I will be... disappointed, since I do not think it was an unfair observation to make in the first place. i would really like this bit of unpleasantness to get sorted out. Taking what i wrote at the begining of this post into consideration, i would like to think you can see how that was not a shot at you. Now i see because of the word order it does sound wrong. Mea culpa! :'( i had no intent whatsoever in trolling (i take that to mean insulting). i do maintain Mical would know if there were teachers or not as far as his credibility as a character goes. The notion there were not enough Masters to go around also is easy for me to believe. Many went to war and those who did not had to pick-up the slack doing their Jedi things across the galaxy left with the others' abcenses. Seems perfectly plausible to me. [Hekate]Perhaps too strongly but certainly not unjustified. i was getting very frustrated by the time i wrote that and i probably shouldn't have, but you did use the fanboy argument against people who defended Revan in a different thread so i thought i'd throw it in as a little touch of irony and humour, especially since the parenthesis directly preceeded my comment of rational debate. That's why i added the thong reference too, for humour. [Jediphile]One of us did not find it amusing... I geneally don't when people basically tells me I'm biased. Calling it a plothole that Mical claims nobody was left to teach him is not the same as claiming that "Oh my DS Revan pwn everyone ever in the whole galaxy", at least it isn't to me, and therefore inferring so does not seem like a very kind thing to do. Especially when I have already pointed to things in Brianna that made me prefer Visas over her as a romance option. Well everyone does have different senses of humour. i thought it funny and even a little clever too with the word placement setting up a contrast. i just don't like how things feel uneven, so i try to even things out. i am not a blindingly clever humourist but i am still allowed to joke. The problem lies with interpretation, and delivery too. However, i do feel there is a bias in some of the arguments you make, just as you feel there is a bias in mine. For instance, the comparisson between Mical's and Brianna's personal ties to Exile. i do keep restating it is only a comparisson basis of one aspect of the characters though, and it is certainly not the only factor. i have stated numerous times how i find evaluating a character's worth on what they bring to the overarching plot to be dubious. But i do debate those terms since they were presented. [Jediphile]If that were true, Telos should have been doomed in the male Exile's story, since Mical is not there to warn them. Besides, who says they were warned at all? The whole assumption during that part of the game is that Citadel Station will fall if the Exile does not stop Nihilus, which does not suggest to me that there was any warning, or Carth/Cede would have called in more of the republic fleet to defend Telos. And even if we suspect that they were warned, I find it just as likely that Kreia leaked this information, since she wanted the Exile to come to Telos and defeat both Atris and Nihilus. Again i feel as though what i wrote wasn't read. i stated Carth thanks Exile regardless of Exile's sex therefore he must have found out some other way with male Exile. But that still doesn't mean Mical isn't doing his duty to the Republic while travelling with Exile & co. which is important to the overarcing storyline. And with that i am just too darned tired to write more. So i'll finish with the Atton issue tomorrow. Jediphile, i would like you to know i am enjoying debating this with you, i respect your opinions, and that i have no intent of trolling nor doing any other nasty stuff. i do regret there has been this much misunderstanding, but looking on the bright side, it killed a few potentially monotonous hours And i am glad others have joined in as well Edited May 14, 2006 by Hekate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] In my last post i stated Brianna asked Atris why Exile (regardless of which sex) has such and effect on her. She also states she has never seen Atris that disturbed before. Atris's own answer is the same regardless of Exile's sex, the whole cut-scene is the same regardless of Exile's sex. Atris says: "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside." That is the reason Atris is affected by Exile so deeply. That applies even if Exile is male. I think I've found the source of our troubles now. Since there is no easy way of putting it, I think I'll just be blunt and break it to you and say that you're mistaken about the above. You have cited the passage of what Atris says correctly, but only with regards to the female Exile. For the male Exile, however, the same cutscene goes like this: Atris: "The exile reminded me of something... I had forgotten." Handmaiden sister: "Forgive me, mistress... but I must ask. The exile... I have never seen another effect you so strongly. Did you care for him once?" Atris: {Slight bitterness, doesn't want to admit she loved the player}"The Jedi have no such attachments.As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy... and the feelings of others... can burn for all he cares. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was... he was so right. He was so certain of it, I doubted myself. He chose Revan over the Jedi, over the Council... over...{unspoken "me" at end}" Since you clearly believe your above statement to be true for both male and female Exile, I shall drop the issue of Atris' love for the male Exile in the rest of my reply here (except where it relates to other issues), since it would only serve to point to arguments from a basis of misinformation, and doing so would only serve to point fingers and antagonize on my part. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Now, for Brianna's questions: "...You... you did not care for her, did you?..." It would seem Exile's answer to that question is what is important here. And in every possible answer, IIRC, it is a 'no'. To be totally honest, I do not recall what the Exile's options are, but even if they are all "no" in some form or at least evasive, I don't think that needs to mean that no such emotions were ever there. Given how Atris has treated him and continues to, it is not difficult for me to believe that he might have denied his feelings for Atris as well, if indeed he ever had any. And seeing as how she treats him now, and what she has become, there is little point in admitting to those emotions. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] *Hekate puts up a warning sign: caution: joke ahead* i thought Han was pretty busy thinking "Put it out! Put it out!!" *Hekate removes warning sign* It was pretty amusing to watch Han trying to put out the torches by *blowing* at them... How much more desperate can you get? Still, it did turn the film into slapstick - we knew they were never going to let that happen, and so you cannot take it seriously on a dramatic level. It really does make me dislike the Ewoks... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] It was a joke. Trying to lighten the mood. A character in BGII says "Well, bless me for being an idiot" so i thought i'd follow suit by taking a jab at myself since i did not understand the whole wound in the Force and echoes plots with all the contradictions inherent in the game the first time around, and i sitll don't past the 7th time around. My humour attempt was foiled again, i see Possibly because I never played BG II and so didn't get the reference. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] While it is true no one can control whom they love, it's also true no one can control whom they admire nor feel a kinship to. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree again. Admiration doesn't come from random and inexplicable feelings like love frequently does. Maybe you feel it differently, I don't know, but for me to admire someone, there would have to be some specific reason for me to do so. To say that I admire Ed Murrow and Ghandi is pointless unless you already know what I would admire those people for (and in these cases that would admittedly seem fairly obvious). However, if I said I admired someone you didn't know anything about, it would immediately prompt the question of what I admired about that person. For example, if I said I admired Ronald Reagan, that would probably raise a few eyebrows here and there, because someone might immediately wonder why, and there are indeed both reasons why one might or might not admire him. If, however, I then elaborated and said that I admired him for the role he played in ending the Cold War with the Soviet Union, then that casts my admiration in an entirely different light and would seem far more reasonable to most people (or so I think). But you would need to have that piece of information to understand it, and you would be wondering why I admired Reagan if I did not give it. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Oi. i never said it is the most cohesive story plot on the planet. Nor did i say it fits in with any romantic ideal. Sion's a mess. Both in his body and head. Some people will be put off by it, and some people will find it compelling. Just as some people will find Atris' romance plot repulsive, and others compelling. By your own admission, love and attraction are not feelings one can control. Actually no, but I have accepted that you think so and proceeded to argue on that basis. Perhaps not a particularly important point to make, but I do wish to mark that distinction. Anyways... [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]So Sion feels love for female Exile because he just does. i do not understand why if Sion developed those feelings throughout the game, we must have been shown it unfold. Technically though, they do in a way with him letting her go on Korriban saying she deserves at least that, and then on Malachor V he tells her why he cares about. He has had a long time to think things over and to think about her. She is more important to Kreia than he is. That draws him to her. They don't show that in cut-scenes throughout the game, but they do have him state it in-game. It is possible it was cut content and they intended to add alot more with their backstory. My problem with the Sion romance (apart from that it makes no sense to me and does not fit his characters as I see him) is that it has no significance in the game. None. You still have to fight Sion and, in the end, kill Sion regardless of it. The same is not true of Atris, however - you get the choice of whether to kill her for her crimes or spare her life and grant her redemption. What you decide for Atris will depend on how you perceive Atris and think and how you - yes - *FEEL* about her (including whether you're DS or LS obviously), but the point is that you have the choice. You have no choice for Sion - he must die. So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i see it as a bit of a stretch to go as far as saying it hurts the credibility of the plot if Mical loves her. The same plot hurting potential holds true for Atris. I do not think it is insignificant whether the feelings between jedi is between a master and some other student or whether it is between a young jedi and her even younger padawan. I do believe that it would have been much easier for the masters to notice Mical's feelings and therefore assign him to another master. Atris is a master, however, and is undoubtedly much, much better at hiding her feelings, and even if they were discovered, what would the masters do? They can't kick her out just for having them - that would require acting on them first, which does not seem to me to have happened - and even so, the masters probably go through these emotions on a regular basis (they can't old by uncaring buggers like our admirable and dear old Vrook, after all) and are expected to be much better at controlling their emotions than a mere youngling and a very young jedi. So I don't accept that this is as true for Atris as it is for Mical. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] *Warning: humourous intent ahead* So, i take it you don't like Sion then? *Humourous attempt complete* I like Sion, but not as a romance option. It doesn't seem right for his character to me. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Again, back to the multitude of other occurences which turn out the same regardless of the choices the protagonist makes. The first large one that comes to mind: all the Jedi Masters get killed no matter what Exile does. Next one: Kreia dies no matter what Exile does even if in the LS rendition she just does so seemingly without cause. Next: Peragus gets blown up regardless of what Exile does. There are more, as i'm sure you are well aware of. And a few spoken lines is more than Atris gets with regards to her loving Exile. In the cut content, Sion becomes very relevant to the plot, but until Team Gizka finishes the restoration, we simply won't know. I find it very interesting how you carefully avoid the question of whether the player will kill or redeem Atris in this list of events. Given how significant she is the plot, her final fate would seem fairly relevant to mention here. I wonder why you did not... [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Since she is dedicated to stopping Nihilus, there would be no reason for her to betray Exile since they share the same goal. But is she? I was uncertain about that all the way until the confrontation with Nihilus... [Jediphile]I may see this side of Visas, but then I'm rationalizing after knowing the full story. I really was unsure all the way through playing the game, so I doubt the Exile was ever certain of this, because I sure wasn't. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]i find that interesting, because as i stated before, i had no doubt whatsoever of her dedication to Exile in the first run through. i guess in part that is because with Visas, the more Exile spoke with her, the more she opened-up about herself and she spoke more of why she is loyal to Exile. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that's precisely why I doubted her - she said all the right things a little to quickly and came around to my side far too easily. Not because what she said was unconvincing, but precisely because it was. And because I *wanted* to believe her. I kept thinking about this scene from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Rocks and Shoals". Let me explain: Nog, a young ferengi Starfleet cadet, and Garak, a cardassian working for Starfleet, are exploring a planet the crew has crashed on. Garak notices that Nog keeps taking a step backwards whenever Garak does... He confronts Nog about it, who initially tries to be evasive about it and feign ignorance. Garak: "You know precisely what I mean - you're deliberately staying behind me, and I want to know why! Does this have anything to do with that unfortunate business between you and me last year?" [note: this is a reference to the events of the episode "Empok Nor", where Garak was infected with psychotropic drug that made him murder several Starfleet officers and nearly kill Nog as well] Nog: "You tied me up and threatened to kill me." Garak: "There were extenuating circumstances..." Nog: "It happened! So you can either stay in front of me or walk beside me - but I won't turn my back on you again!" Garak: "Cadet, there may be hope for you yet..." Now, this kept playing over and over in my head. "Yes, Visas I trust you... erm, would you go through that door first", while I thought to myself, "I like Visas and I *want* to trust her, but she *did* try to kill me! So I'm not turning my back on her!" It all made the game a lot more fun [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] LOL Yes, actually, that is exactly what i am doing. i found how you explained it very interesting and appropriate for Bao-Dur. He himself says he sees things as parts. The only area we diverge on is the conclusion. i think one has to have complex thought processes to see things in webs to be able to understand how things interact, rather than a linear thought process of simple reduction. So you think Bao-Dur is complex because he uncomplicates things WARNING: Danger of humor detected on current course! Sorry, but seem I detect a logic-circuit overloa... [brrzzzttt] - does not compute... does not compute... does not compute... [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i reach that conclusion because as stated above, he can see the big picture, how things connect, and how to manipulate the big into manageable and cohesive small parts. And it is exactly what you say about him breaking things down to where he can manage them that i think requires alot of awareness and understanding to be able to do. Taking apart a machine, for instance, to keep track of the parts to be able te re-assemble it, one has to understand how to group the parts together. To be able to do that properly, one has to be able to see how the machine works, what each part's function is, and how they relate to all the others. Alot of people have tunnel vision, and when they look at that metaphorical machine, they get lost because they cannot fathom the complexity of the machine. Bao-Dur not only sees it, he can manipulate it so he can better handle it. He thinks on many different levels and sees things from many different perspectives. It is a shame he is given so little dialogue in the game. But he, moreso than the rest of the cast, really understands himself, i think. And to be able to do that, he has to be able to see clearly and to be able to take all these various factors into consideration and see how they intreact with eachother. But that is just how i see it. Sorry, but that still... [brrzzttt] Damn, not again! *** System malfunction *** "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave..." [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i don't get why complicating things for him is bad. i think it might just be the stimulous he needs to shake him out of his veneer of calm and deal with things he hasn't been able to since some of those have to do with how others perceive him and his feeling he cannot be loved by another. No, I don't agree. That would require that Bao-Dur has not been dealing with his past, and that is not the case. He struggles with his past continually, of course, as any person with his past would do on a continued basis, but he has not been in in a state of denial for all these years that now needs to be countered. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i think the exact opposite would be true. That he isn't being shaken by attraction allows him to keep himself removed, almost emotionally and psychologically sterilized if you will, and that ultimately is worse for him. But once attraction is thrown in, by the very nature of that depth of intimacy, it would force him out of his comfort zone and he would certainly be challenged by it, but he would also grow. And growth is good And the fact he would be intimate with someone who understands his terrible karmic burden would be soulagent (sorry, slipped into French...) a mix of soothing and unburdening, which makes for less resistance to his being able to become intimate at all. So that means that for Bao-Dur to feel comfortable with others, he would not to get out of his comfort zon... [brrzzzzzttttt]. Oh no!!! *** Warning: Damage to logic core - subject will be erased from memory *** [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i don't get it why nor how with female's Exile's romance options, they all are in doubt and that love between them would compromise the integrity of the characters and the plot. Atton and Bao-Dur both wouldn't believe she loves them and it would be detrimental if she did, and Mical was to be her padawan so that is wrong, and Sion doesn't have enough grounds to love her so that also is not acceptable. i am saddened by this i find Atton, Bao-Dur, and Sion have very dark and disturbing histories and connections to Exile, with alot of potential for very powerful interactions and meaningful storytelling. Yes, but those dark backstories is precisely why they're not so appropriate for romantic relationships. It makes more sense for Mical, except he's just too boring in my opinion and does not seem to be enough of an equal to the Exile (nor does Atton for that matter...) [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. Precisely. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]i don't think Atton so much idealizes Exile and sees her as perfection, although i do agree he sees she is dealing with her karmic burden better than he is dealing with his and he is a bit jealous of that, but he also sees her as a bit of a monster as he sees himself. It is a less personal and intimate type of monster, but that distance from it, that sterility of sorts (which Exile shares a bit with Bao-Dur), is the difference between them too. His is more raw, but also more honest. She has the calming effect of the Force and having had her lifetime being trained in it. Atton is disconnected and seeking to be connected. But he is terrified of it even in his being drawn to it. i thought the romantic/intimate interactions and possibilities among the guys were quite significant, moving, complex, and deep. My problem is that they all, except for Mical, have some many demons to fight with that a romance option seems to burden the characters beyond what they can take. They just don't seem to be able to handle it on top of all the other ghosts they must also deal with. Whereas Brianna has no such ghosts and is just unhealthily curious, and Visas is from the dead "hole in the force" (Nihilus) to the live "hole in the force" (Exile). Visas sees the life that Nihilus denied to her in the Exile, in spite of his problems, because he is the opposite to Nihilus - the "positive" hole in the force. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] But i think his not blaming Exile at all and rather blaming himself entirely is a little delusional. Both Exile and Bao-Dur are a bit delusional about their guilt, in that they accept more responsibility than either of them should. And the Exile is far more in denial that Bao-Dur is. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i feel the same way you do about Bao-Dur and Exile as i do about Visas and Exile. i think her trauma is far too severe for her to be able to really be able to cope with intimacy. i think it might have a chance down the road, after she has had a while to sort things out after she had partially been able to make peace with herself on the Ravager. Ah, but I think what she longs for is life and all the feelings that comes with it. Nihilus is death incarnate, and Visas has been breathing that death for too long. She longs desperately for all the emotions and feelings of life. Note her comments in the cutscene where we first see her and Nihilus: Visas: "I have felt it, too, my lord... a disturbance in the Force. It was difficult to make out, my lord. At first it was such a quiet thing, I did not notice it. But now I wonder if it has always been there, I merely could not hear it before.The sound built so slowly, yet when you listen for it, you can make out the strains, even over the background life of the universe. Do you feel it is a thr-{threat? Gets choked off by Nihilus crushing her windpipe with the Force}{Whispering, as if being choked}You... you are the darkness in which all life dies, milord. All life... exists to feed your power, and my life... {he releases her, she collapses - the next is quiet, subservient}my life is yours.I beg you... please... let me die.{Deferent, a little firmer, now that she has her second wind - she is answering a question}Yes... this disturbance... echoes through the Force. I can follow it to its source... and bring it to you. I will leave at once, my lord." [Jediphile]No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] He brings background history to Exile. He brings Jedi history to the story. He ties the Republic in directly to the Jedi and the search for them which is directly related to what Exile is doing. He states the worlds the Jedi Masters are hidden on are connected and they together resonate the echoes amplifying their effect and that will lead to the death of the Force. Kreia tells him directly Exile is the cause of this effect and that she must die to which Mical tells her he will not let her harm Exile. He states Revan was attempting to unify the galaxy which then adds context to Kreia's comment on how Revan knew the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. Yes, but I maintain that he does not bring anything to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and that you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. None of what you mention here is missing in the male Exile's story. The only difference is that the male Exile does not get the relevantion that Mical was to be his padawan and that is not significant to the story. And in fact, I do seem to recall the male Exile having an option of remembering Mical from the academy, so even then he might recall that piece of information, even if it is never said in his plot. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] "...it is important to their relationship" Them being tied in that way, and that he refers to Exile as 'friend' indicates they have a different type of relationship than Exile has with the other Masters. Is it earth shattering? No. But does it cary meaning? Yes. He is the only Jedi Master to be on closer terms to Exile therefore his death would cary more weight than the others'. Actually, I felt a lot closer to Zez-Kai Ell, since he seemed to care far more about the Exile's situation and regret the masters decision than Kavar did, so I fear I'm going to have to doubt that greater meaning that you seem to think that Kavar carries in the game. Sorry. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i do maintain Mical would know if there were teachers or not as far as his credibility as a character goes. The notion there were not enough Masters to go around also is easy for me to believe. Many went to war and those who did not had to pick-up the slack doing their Jedi things across the galaxy left with the others' abcenses. Seems perfectly plausible to me. The time frame we're talking about is during the Mandalorian Wars, years before the Jedi Civil War. This was at a time when the jedi order had apparently been recovering from Exar Kun's Great Sith War for well over 30 years without particular incident. And we know that when Revan and Malak split the order, it was mostly the young jedi who heeded the call and went with them to war. Did this cost teachers? Yes, but given the context it makes no sense to me to suggest that it cost more teachers than young jedi students, since it consistently described as being all the young hotheads who rushed off the war, while the older and more experienced teachers generally stayed behind. Therefore Mical's statement of there being no teachers left makes no sense to me - if anything, there should have been more than before, since it was mostly the students who need teachers who had left. Any particular flaws with that logic? [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] However, i do feel there is a bias in some of the arguments you make, just as you feel there is a bias in mine. For instance, the comparisson between Mical's and Brianna's personal ties to Exile. i do keep restating it is only a comparisson basis of one aspect of the characters though, and it is certainly not the only factor. i have stated numerous times how i find evaluating a character's worth on what they bring to the overarching plot to be dubious. But i do debate those terms since they were presented. Then by what what standards would you evaluate significance of the characters? To me it would probably be something along the lines of: - Their impact on the game's greater plot. - How well written and characterized they are. - How consistently and logically - and dramatically - they act during the course of the plot. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Again i feel as though what i wrote wasn't read. i stated Carth thanks Exile regardless of Exile's sex therefore he must have found out some other way with male Exile. But that still doesn't mean Mical isn't doing his duty to the Republic while travelling with Exile & co. which is important to the overarcing storyline. Fair enough, but that's still just presumption, since there is nothing to suggest Mical was ever in contact with Carth (or Cede) during the female Exile's plot. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]Jediphile, i would like you to know i am enjoying debating this with you, i respect your opinions, and that i have no intent of trolling nor doing any other nasty stuff. i do regret there has been this much misunderstanding, but looking on the bright side, it killed a few potentially monotonous hours I'm just glad we survived the "bumps" on the road... And obviously I would not still be here if I had a low opinion of you or your views. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]And i am glad others have joined in as well And we finally agree on something... Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekate Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Jediphile, as we delve into this deeper, it is getting more difficult to counter you. But we ain't through just yet... [Jediphile]I think I've found the source of our troubles now. Since there is no easy way of putting it, I think I'll just be blunt and break it to you and say that you're mistaken about the above. You have cited the passage of what Atris says correctly, but only with regards to the female Exile. For the male Exile, however, the same cutscene goes like this: Atris: "The exile reminded me of something... I had forgotten." Handmaiden sister: "Forgive me, mistress... but I must ask. The exile... I have never seen another effect you so strongly. Did you care for him once?" Atris: {Slight bitterness, doesn't want to admit she loved the player}"The Jedi have no such attachments.As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy... and the feelings of others... can burn for all he cares. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was... he was so right. He was so certain of it, I doubted myself. He chose Revan over the Jedi, over the Council... over...{unspoken "me" at end}" *be warned, humourous intent up ahead* Is it really fair to use the text dialogues to prove your point? *humourous threat has ended. Resume regular activities* Yup. Can't argue that. Brianna's dialogue is the same regardless, except for a "her" in place of a "him", the difference in Atris' dialogue is from the begining of your quote to the point where she speaks of judging Exile. So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. [Jediphile]Since you clearly believe your above statement to be true for both male and female Exile, I shall drop the issue of Atris' love for the male Exile in the rest of my reply here (except where it relates to other issues), since it would only serve to point to arguments from a basis of misinformation, and doing so would only serve to point fingers and antagonize on my part. *snicker* wouldn't want that now would we? *Hee, hee, hee* [Jediphile]To be totally honest, I do not recall what the Exile's options are, but even if they are all "no" in some form or at least evasive, I don't think that needs to mean that no such emotions were ever there. Given how Atris has treated him and continues to, it is not difficult for me to believe that he might have denied his feelings for Atris as well, if indeed he ever had any. And seeing as how she treats him now, and what she has become, there is little point in admitting to those emotions. Well, the point in admitting those emotions would be to let Brianna know she doesn't stand a chance, for Exile to face reality, and for the player to have some clue what the heck is going on. Since everything the player gets to know on those subjects is through dialogues, it should be an indication of how Exile feels. *grumble* [Jediphile]Possibly because I never played BG II and so didn't get the reference. Blashphemer! Go rectify that right away. Choose Jaheira. [Jediphile]Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree again. Admiration doesn't come from random and inexplicable feelings like love frequently does. Maybe you feel it differently, I don't know, but for me to admire someone, there would have to be some specific reason for me to do so. To say that I admire Ed Murrow and Ghandi is pointless unless you already know what I would admire those people for (and in these cases that would admittedly seem fairly obvious). However, if I said I admired someone you didn't know anything about, it would immediately prompt the question of what I admired about that person. For example, if I said I admired Ronald Reagan, that would probably raise a few eyebrows here and there, because someone might immediately wonder why, and there are indeed both reasons why one might or might not admire him. If, however, I then elaborated and said that I admired him for the role he played in ending the Cold War with the Soviet Union, then that casts my admiration in an entirely different light and would seem far more reasonable to most people (or so I think). But you would need to have that piece of information to understand it, and you would be wondering why I admired Reagan if I did not give it. Exile cannot be compared to Regan in anyway. Ok, they are both human and have as much personality as wet noodles, but you know what i mean. Exile was a Jedi. Jedi do heroic things. It's what they are known for. Pillars of light and goodness, defenders of the Republic, and all that Jedi goodness. (i guess the US is a republic too so that doesn't count in not comparing them so shhh.) And i wasn't suggesting hero worship just *bing!* springs into a person's heart like that. Obviously there does have to be some reason for it. What i was saying, though, is it doesn't have to have come from a massive one time event, although it could. Such things could develop over time. In a sense, friendship can be like that a little too. And i still don't think any feelings nor affections felt for others can be controlled nor artificially created. Looking up to someone may stem in logic and reasoning; however; there are people whose actions or philosophies one may look up to without feeling anything for that person. And there are people one can admire eventhough they aren't all that admirable. That is why i said hero worship, especially such a potent case of it as Atris has for Exile, is an emotion that can occur without explanation. i do understand wanting to know why and how Atris' feelings for female Exile came about. It could be that Exile is good at Force bonding and Atris isn't so she admires Exile for it. But we don't get graced with an explination, so we gotta go on what we got. We do know in the Council Chambers when Exile is being exiled, Atris is just as furious at female Exile as male Exile. And as i have stated in earlier posts, i think that is powerful for a person to react that strongly without attraction having been the catalyst. Attraction naturally increases the effect of one's emotions for the other person. Now comparing the 2, Atris freaking out at male Exile with love, and Atris freaking out at female Exile without love, it seems more viscerally impactful that she is that affected by female Exile. Her feelings for her are honest in a sense. They aren't muddled with the confusion and amplifying aspect of attraction. Obviously attraction increases feelings and their effects. But female Exile got under Atris' skin without attraction as much as male Exile did. That doesn't take away from Atris' love for male Exile though. It is just how i see it. [Hekate]Oi. i never said it is the most cohesive story plot on the planet. Nor did i say it fits in with any romantic ideal. Sion's a mess. Both in his body and head. Some people will be put off by it, and some people will find it compelling. Just as some people will find Atris' romance plot repulsive, and others compelling. By your own admission, love and attraction are not feelings one can control. [Jediphile]Actually no, but I have accepted that you think so and proceeded to argue on that basis. Perhaps not a particularly important point to make, but I do wish to mark that distinction. Anyways... i'm sorry but i don't understand what you are saying. What is it you have accepted and what distinction do you wish to make? [Hekate]So Sion feels love for female Exile because he just does. i do not understand why if Sion developed those feelings throughout the game, we must have been shown it unfold. Technically though, they do in a way with him letting her go on Korriban saying she deserves at least that, and then on Malachor V he tells her why he cares about. He has had a long time to think things over and to think about her. She is more important to Kreia than he is. That draws him to her. They don't show that in cut-scenes throughout the game, but they do have him state it in-game. It is possible it was cut content and they intended to add alot more with their backstory. [Jediphile]My problem with the Sion romance (apart from that it makes no sense to me and does not fit his characters as I see him) is that it has no significance in the game. None. You still have to fight Sion and, in the end, kill Sion regardless of it. The same is not true of Atris, however - you get the choice of whether to kill her for her crimes or spare her life and grant her redemption. What you decide for Atris will depend on how you perceive Atris and think and how you - yes - *FEEL* about her (including whether you're DS or LS obviously), but the point is that you have the choice. You have no choice for Sion - he must die. So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all. i think if they had done it properly, that Sion has to die has quite an impact. Again, we can only go on what was in there. But i have read people state they felt Sion-Exile was powerful. Yes, as i have agreed, it sorta comes out of nowhere and implies those two were somehow feeling eachother for a long time, to which the player is left going "hun?" but the point is Exile wasn't going "hun?". And when i thought about it, everything the player knows about Atris' feelings comes from cut-scenes that Exile isn't even involved in. Her chat with Brianna and such. Exile doesn't get to feel much of anything from her other than she is a pretentious shutta who stole Exile's ship, kept her/his lightsabre, is royally miffed and yells at Exile while acusing Exile of things we assume Exile didn't do, and such. Again, i don't remember there being anything of significance in male Exile and Atris' last confrontation, so if there is, that changes things, but the player is given a bit more feel for Atris' romantic feelings than Sion's, but not all that much really. Of her anger though, in spades. Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. Sion becomes significant if the player accepts he is significant. i accepted he is, and i saw him as having more depth and purpose than just being the big baddie who is boss #2. How his relationship to Kreia mirrored Exile's, how he was just abandoned by her and then taken up again to fight Exile is similar to how Kreia abandoned Exile on Dantooine. And that Sion didn't want that, he didn't want Kreia to harm Exile in the way he was harmed where Exile wouldn't have anything to live for without Kreia giving her purpose, so she wouldn't turn out to be a monster as he was, that he was even willing to kill whom he cared for to protect her, that packs a punch. That Sion was a product of Malachor V makes him important since it is Exile who ordered its destruction. Sion is a physical manifestation of Malachor V, and a very acute one at that: pain. And pain is what everyone touched by Malachor V is burdened with. i see Atton and Sion as very similar in that respect; they both were affected by Malachor V, but they suffered differently, yet, they are so similar. In the cut content, Atton says to Exile once Sion messes him up severly, "Always was ugly, now the outside matches". And that, i think, is one of the important things Sion does; he shows the ugliness of Malachor V, of Exile, of the whole blood-soiled crusade. And that this monster can actually care for something, for someone through his pain, that also is important since it shows the others affected by Malachor V just might be able to too. Wearing down his will, and that there is a difference in how that is done between male and female Exile is important, because with Sion giving up as he fights male Exile, it means something entirely different than when he lets go with female Exile. You are right though. All of what i said came from how i see things. We are told Sion is pain and such, but we really aren't given much on him, so we have to read into him what we can. i felt he was important, especially as he acted as a sort of hub where so many people's stories came together, how his path paralled others' paths, and how he was a representation of the pain Malachor V caused. He also served as a mirror to the Exile and her/his companions wherein it was shown just how tenuous their grasp on things really were. But i do understand how you feel it had no significance in the game. You also said you feel the Jedi Masters had no significance in the game. And i can understand that as well. It is not as if the game explained things nor built-up relationships. In this game, a mere mention of something made it significant. i did feel Kavar did treated Exile differently than the other Masters though. He seemed more honest and more friendly. Master Zez-Kai did speak more compassionately and he spoke of the Council in a way the players could better empathize with. But all we got was one speach from all save Vrook, and Master Kavar had a much better understanding of of Exile from the dialogue. So how that relates to Sion is, with female Exile, we see an aspect of Sion and by extension the Force wound, that we do not otherwise get to see. [Jediphile]I do not think it is insignificant whether the feelings between jedi is between a master and some other student or whether it is between a young jedi and her even younger padawan. I do believe that it would have been much easier for the masters to notice Mical's feelings and therefore assign him to another master. Atris is a master, however, and is undoubtedly much, much better at hiding her feelings, and even if they were discovered, what would the masters do? They can't kick her out just for having them - that would require acting on them first, which does not seem to me to have happened - and even so, the masters probably go through these emotions on a regular basis (they can't old by uncaring buggers like our admirable and dear old Vrook, after all) and are expected to be much better at controlling their emotions than a mere youngling and a very young jedi. So I don't accept that this is as true for Atris as it is for Mical. i'm not sure if they would have switched a youngling's or a padawan's master for her/him having some feelings of attraction. They would seem to have more likely used it as a tool to help him learn to master his feelings. i am certain as kids grow-up they would have all sorts of those feelings for a whole bunch of different people. That is only natural. i can't see why that would have been such a huge problem. Whereas a Jedi Master having such intence feelings, that would indeed have been a big problem i would think. Maybe Atris was never good at controlling her feelings and that is why she never got to instruct a padawan. Conjecture, i know, but the point is, a Master who has such feelings for a Jedi is a far more serious problem that a youth or a teen having those feelings for the same Jedi. Not only is a master strong in the Force, but a Master falling to the dark side, as Atris proved, is a far worse danger than the attraction a young padawan feels. Atris was literally freaking out after Exile's trial. She did not go about hiding her feelings in a terribly effective way. And it is the stupidity of the Jedi Council in this game with regards to Atris that makes me feel it damages the plot more than Mical's attraction does. The same thing happened in KotOR. Why the Jedi Council went about sending Revan on the Star Map mission when s/he was clearly DS when s/he got there, i will never know. That just seemed an incredibly stupid thing to do. And so the Council in KotOR II suffers with the same stupidity disease. They should have done something about Atris back then. Leaving her with such intence feelings would make it too easy for her to lose control and to fall to the dark side which, *joke at work, proceed with caution* surprise, surprise *joke zone ends*, is exactly what happened. *another joke rears its ugly head* Meh, maybe those loose and wild guys on the Council like playing it risky every now and then. Must get boring being all serene all the time. *it's been put out of its misery now* [Hekate]*Warning: humourous intent ahead* So, i take it you don't like Sion then? *Humourous attempt complete* [Jediphile]I like Sion, but not as a romance option. It doesn't seem right for his character to me. Out of intence curiosity, and i know i'll regret asking but oh well, why doesn't it seem right for his character? [Hekate]Again, back to the multitude of other occurences which turn out the same regardless of the choices the protagonist makes. The first large one that comes to mind: all the Jedi Masters get killed no matter what Exile does. Next one: Kreia dies no matter what Exile does even if in the LS rendition she just does so seemingly without cause. Next: Peragus gets blown up regardless of what Exile does. There are more, as i'm sure you are well aware of. And a few spoken lines is more than Atris gets with regards to her loving Exile. In the cut content, Sion becomes very relevant to the plot, but until Team Gizka finishes the restoration, we simply won't know. [Jediphile]I find it very interesting how you carefully avoid the question of whether the player will kill or redeem Atris in this list of events. Given how significant she is the plot, her final fate would seem fairly relevant to mention here. I wonder why you did not... The reason it isn't included in that particular list of events is because that list was of things that occur regardless of what Exile does. In Atris' case, Exile can decide if s/he'll kill Atris directly or not therefore it did not belong on that list. Just as an aside, i thought Atris dies regardless of what happens with Exile. i thought Exile either kills her directly, condemns her to death by Sith holocron, or Atris just gives-up and dies. That is what i remember of the last conversation with her. Exile can offer to help/save her but she doesn't want it and sends Exile away because it is too late for her. Alot like Kreia going "G-gaaaaahhhhh" dead for no apparent reason. i could be wrong though... [Jediphile]But is she? I was uncertain about that all the way until the confrontation with Nihilus... *baffle* i saw Visas as having no room nor patience for games nor manipulations. She seemed very straight forward and honest. i thought that complete honesty was very interesting and also completely understandable since she carried such deep pain she really didn't have the wherewithal to do anything else. She was pretty much at the edge all the time. She didn't seem to hold anything back (other than influence related stuff but that is more of a game mechanic). She, Mical, and Brianna (Hanhaar too actually), seemed to be the only NPCs where Exile knew where s/he stood. The reason i didn't include Bao-Dur is because when he is with Exile and sees Exile doing something DS, than he tells Exile the only reason he is following her/him is because of their history which indicates a rather poignant discontent. [Jediphile]Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that's precisely why I doubted her - she said all the right things a little to quickly and came around to my side far too easily. Not because what she said was unconvincing, but precisely because it was. And because I *wanted* to believe her. *joke* Perhaps you are a little too paranoid. Carth, anyone? *joke end* [Jediphile]I kept thinking about this scene from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Rocks and Shoals". Let me explain: Nog, a young ferengi Starfleet cadet, and Garak, a cardassian working for Starfleet, are exploring a planet the crew has crashed on. Garak notices that Nog keeps taking a step backwards whenever Garak does... He confronts Nog about it, who initially tries to be evasive about it and feign ignorance. Garak: "You know precisely what I mean - you're deliberately staying behind me, and I want to know why! Does this have anything to do with that unfortunate business between you and me last year?" [note: this is a reference to the events of the episode "Empok Nor", where Garak was infected with psychotropic drug that made him murder several Starfleet officers and nearly kill Nog as well] Nog: "You tied me up and threatened to kill me." Garak: "There were extenuating circumstances..." Nog: "It happened! So you can either stay in front of me or walk beside me - but I won't turn my back on you again!" Garak: "Cadet, there may be hope for you yet..." Now, this kept playing over and over in my head. "Yes, Visas I trust you... erm, would you go through that door first", while I thought to myself, "I like Visas and I *want* to trust her, but she *did* try to kill me! So I'm not turning my back on her!" It all made the game a lot more fun Wow. It is amazing what people can see in some things and not in others. Just examining how we contrast our views, how i see depth and complexity in both Bao-Dur and Atton, how i see importance in the Sion-Exile intimacy, vs how you see Mical's past with Exile as plot destroying, Sion and Exile being without meaning, seeing Atton as trustworthy once his secret is revealed... Fascinating. [Jediphile]So you think Bao-Dur is complex because he uncomplicates things WARNING: Danger of humor detected on current course! Sorry, but seem I detect a logic-circuit overloa... [brrzzzttt] - does not compute... does not compute... does not compute... Indeed your sarcasm truly is greater than mine! i think Bao-Dur has a complex psyche and intellect. I think he can see things from many different perspectives and he can see how things are woven together in the grand tapestry of life. i also think how he can reduce things to manageable sizes is in and of itself a difficult thing to do since many get overwhelmed in seeing so much. Bao-Dur doesn't get overwhelmed, he simplifies. But it's not as if he loses sight of things, its more like he says "OK. This is too big for me to deal with all at once. I am going to group these issues together here, and these other issues here. I'll deal with these ones first, and once I've done enough work on those, I'll move on to doing these. But I won't forget everything else; I'll keep it all in mind and work on it sub-consciouly as I deal with one group of problems than the next." So eventhough he makes it simple, he still thinks about the other stuff, and he still sees the big picture. And he knows what he can handle at once, which also takes self-awareness and an understanding of the issues. [Jediphile]Sorry, but that still... [brrzzttt] Damn, not again! *** System malfunction *** "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave..." i'm trying to think of a better way to explain it. Unfortunately, i'm no Bao-Dur. [Hekate]i don't get why complicating things for him is bad. i think it might just be the stimulous he needs to shake him out of his veneer of calm and deal with things he hasn't been able to since some of those have to do with how others perceive him and his feeling he cannot be loved by another. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]No, I don't agree. That would require that Bao-Dur has not been dealing with his past, and that is not the case. He struggles with his past continually, of course, as any person with his past would do on a continued basis, but he has not been in in a state of denial for all these years that now needs to be countered. i wasn't getting at he was in a state of denial. i was saying as a consequence of how he deals with things, by his reducing and remaining mostly calm, he has taken to supressing his feelings. The only time he shows strong emotions i can remember off hand, is when Canderous pushes him too hard and when he confronts Kreia. He isn't emotional when he was being Jedified eventhough one would logically expect it to be so. Even when he is DS and Jedifies from giving into his anger, he still isn't very passionate about it. Why is that? i think for 2 reasons. The first is how he sees Exile as sacrosanct and a person he cannot get angry with regardless of what Exile does, and because he surpresses his feelings. When he speaks of the wars, he mentions how much hate and anger he felt, and how he now feels those were bad reasons to fight. He regrets he killed out of anger, and especially made the MSG out of anger. But he doesn't really connect with those feelings in a meaningful way. He chose to be active rather than emotional. So what i was saying is an intimate relationship might just be exactly what he needs to allow him to begin the process of getting in touch with his supressed emotions. Not only those of rage, regret, and frustration which he does allow himself to feel on occasion, but the whole spectrum of emotions he has denied himself since entering the war, such as joy, love, and so on. [Hekate]i think the exact opposite would be true. That he isn't being shaken by attraction allows him to keep himself removed, almost emotionally and psychologically sterilized if you will, and that ultimately is worse for him. But once attraction is thrown in, by the very nature of that depth of intimacy, it would force him out of his comfort zone and he would certainly be challenged by it, but he would also grow. And growth is good And the fact he would be intimate with someone who understands his terrible karmic burden would be soulagent (sorry, slipped into French...) a mix of soothing and unburdening, which makes for less resistance to his being able to become intimate at all. [Jediphile]So that means that for Bao-Dur to feel comfortable with others, he would not to get out of his comfort zon... [brrzzzzzttttt]. Oh no!!! *** Warning: Damage to logic core - subject will be erased from memory *** i feel like a dim-wit, but i don't get what you are disagreeing with right here. [Hekate]i don't get it why nor how with female's Exile's romance options, they all are in doubt and that love between them would compromise the integrity of the characters and the plot. Atton and Bao-Dur both wouldn't believe she loves them and it would be detrimental if she did, and Mical was to be her padawan so that is wrong, and Sion doesn't have enough grounds to love her so that also is not acceptable. i am saddened by this i find Atton, Bao-Dur, and Sion have very dark and disturbing histories and connections to Exile, with alot of potential for very powerful interactions and meaningful storytelling. [Jediphile]Yes, but those dark backstories is precisely why they're not so appropriate for romantic relationships. It makes more sense for Mical, except he's just too boring in my opinion and does not seem to be enough of an equal to the Exile (nor does Atton for that matter...) Visas' backstory is the darkest of them all. And as such, it feels much more inappropriate for romantic endeavours than the others' do. There is a huge difference between being active participants in death and large scale slaughter, especially when actively instigating it and being aware of the consequences, contrasted to being an unsuspecting victim who feels all life around her die, and as if that wasn't devastating enough, to be made a slave to the one who destroyed it in the first place. i just can't agree with your assesment on the differences here. Trauma like that is extremely severe. It defies logic Visas isn't just a walking zombie or in a vegetative mental state. But she isn't, so she is in the game. But it really does feel off with Visas. As i said though, that interaction where she is reaching out and asks Exile to allow her to look upon him, that was a beautiful moment in the game. And it felt appropriate. However a relationship would seem to me to be entirely out of the question for a good long while, if ever. Visas doesn't even know who she is. It is only with Nihilus' death is she free of her servitude to him, but as we have seen, she already transfered that servitude onto Exile long before Nihilus died so she knew she would have a master no matter the outcome. No matter what way that is looked at, it is an unhealthy and imbalanced relationship. She puts everything in the Exile's hands, not only her life and her fate, but also her ability to hope and to feel. Surely Bao-Dur, Atton, and Sion's lives are dark and full of conflict and pain, but they have retained their individuality to a strong enough degree that they would not reshape who they are to please Exile. They would change surely, but they would not be without a sense of self nor of purpose unless she gave it them. Sion, actually, one could argue, would have been like that if he didn't have to die, but that he does make it kinda moot, and we don't know enough about him to decide that. Brianna changes herself far too readily and easily to try to please Exile. That bothered me in the game. Visas does the same thing though differently, as i wrote above. That is why i find the male Exile to be a weaker choice for cannon if it is based on romantic relationships, since the females are such Exile dependant characters. Even Atris is an Exile dependant character. The only significant difference between her in male and female Exile is Atris isn't romantically interested in female Exile. i find that to be distrubing actually, that these supposed strong women are so completely dependant on the protagonist. Whereas the males are not dependant on the protagonist. The same is seen in KotOR with Bastila. She becomes such a... lost soul who can't think for herself anymore once Malak gets to her. She then comes completely under Revan's control, and becomes even more dependant on Revan if s/he is light side. That is disturbing to me, thus to me, the better story as whole is female Exile. [Hekate]With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. [Jediphile]Precisely. Preciely what? Again my dim-wit sense is tingling... i'm the dim-wit. Not you [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]i don't think Atton so much idealizes Exile and sees her as perfection, although i do agree he sees she is dealing with her karmic burden better than he is dealing with his and he is a bit jealous of that, but he also sees her as a bit of a monster as he sees himself. It is a less personal and intimate type of monster, but that distance from it, that sterility of sorts (which Exile shares a bit with Bao-Dur), is the difference between them too. His is more raw, but also more honest. She has the calming effect of the Force and having had her lifetime being trained in it. Atton is disconnected and seeking to be connected. But he is terrified of it even in his being drawn to it. i thought the romantic/intimate interactions and possibilities among the guys were quite significant, moving, complex, and deep. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]My problem is that they all, except for Mical, have some many demons to fight with that a romance option seems to burden the characters beyond what they can take. They just don't seem to be able to handle it on top of all the other ghosts they must also deal with. Whereas Brianna has no such ghosts and is just unhealthily curious, and Visas is from the dead "hole in the force" (Nihilus) to the live "hole in the force" (Exile). Visas sees the life that Nihilus denied to her in the Exile, in spite of his problems, because he is the opposite to Nihilus - the "positive" hole in the force. i'll leave Visas out of it with this one since i dealt with that above. With Bao-Dur and Atton, i can see how intimacy could help them in different ways. It would be different from eachother, of course, because they are such different people. i already spoke of Bao-Dur, how intimacy with someone who does understand the ugliness of Malachor V as well as the responsibility of being the one who put it into action could be good for him. And corollary, it would be good for Exile since she would have to face stuff we assume she hasn't judging by her lack of reacting to things and by how she spoke with Bao-Dur about the MSG and whose fault it was, or rather wasn't. According to Exile, neither of theirs. Just a wee tad ' denial there, lass. i think Bao-Dur would go to great lengths to do what he could for his General, and that would include delving into things previously put aside because he did not have a pressing enough need to face them. Just by virtue of being in a relationship, especially with her, he couln't avoid all of that any longer. And Exile would finally be allowed to, made to, let herself feel again. And she couldn't hide behind her Jedi calm as she has up until that point because relationships are by their nature emotional and messy. With Atton, the reason it matters it is Exile is because he actually loves her. We don't find out in the game but it is in the cut Malachor V content. No one else would be able to reach him because no one else matters to him enough. Atton has a way of emotionally getting into people, and he would definitely do so with her. He already did way back on Peragus and the conversation they have on the Ebon Hawk before reaching Telos is one of the conversations wherein she shows the most personality in the whole game, that they mostly dump for the rest of it other than a few disjointed places on occasion . Atton, being more raw, emotional, and passionate would evoke such in her. Exile would bring some calm and centering to him. So i think their demons, although bad, are still ones they could heal together from. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Both Exile and Bao-Dur are a bit delusional about their guilt, in that they accept more responsibility than either of them should. And the Exile is far more in denial that Bao-Dur is. Yup, Exile is. But do they really blame themselves more than they should? i don't know. i think that is something no one could forget in a lifetime. It turns out an unexpected consequence of activating the MSG was the Force wound which bore Nihilus and ended-up destroying Katarr and goodness knows what else. That karmic burden, as Kreia spoke of when she told Exile of ripples and everything having far reaching consequences, is exactly what they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. Bao-Dur has a far more healthy understanding of that, but the price he has to pay is that emotional barren. Exile seems not to have faced it yet. And as Exile learns how to feel and deal with it, Bao-Dur would alos feel more and lend strength. Even if they weren't in an attraction based relationship. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Ah, but I think what she longs for is life and all the feelings that comes with it. Nihilus is death incarnate, and Visas has been breathing that death for too long. She longs desperately for all the emotions and feelings of life. Note her comments in the cutscene where we first see her and Nihilus: Visas: "I have felt it, too, my lord... a disturbance in the Force. It was difficult to make out, my lord. At first it was such a quiet thing, I did not notice it. But now I wonder if it has always been there, I merely could not hear it before.The sound built so slowly, yet when you listen for it, you can make out the strains, even over the background life of the universe. Do you feel it is a thr-{threat? Gets choked off by Nihilus crushing her windpipe with the Force}{Whispering, as if being choked}You... you are the darkness in which all life dies, milord. All life... exists to feed your power, and my life... {he releases her, she collapses - the next is quiet, subservient}my life is yours.I beg you... please... let me die.{Deferent, a little firmer, now that she has her second wind - she is answering a question}Yes... this disturbance... echoes through the Force. I can follow it to its source... and bring it to you. I will leave at once, my lord." i am confused. Where do you see her longing for emotions and life in that cut-scene? i got the opposite. She wants her torment to end. Hmm... again, it is fascinating how different perceptions can be... [Jediphile]No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] He brings background history to Exile. He brings Jedi history to the story. He ties the Republic in directly to the Jedi and the search for them which is directly related to what Exile is doing. He states the worlds the Jedi Masters are hidden on are connected and they together resonate the echoes amplifying their effect and that will lead to the death of the Force. Kreia tells him directly Exile is the cause of this effect and that she must die to which Mical tells her he will not let her harm Exile. He states Revan was attempting to unify the galaxy which then adds context to Kreia's comment on how Revan knew the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Yes, but I maintain that he does not bring anything to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and that you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. None of what you mention here is missing in the male Exile's story. The only difference is that the male Exile does not get the relevantion that Mical was to be his padawan and that is not significant to the story. And in fact, I do seem to recall the male Exile having an option of remembering Mical from the academy, so even then he might recall that piece of information, even if it is never said in his plot. Male Exile gets the same line as female Exile about him having a common face so no, the player wouldn't have a clue about any of that history if it weren't for Mical joining female Exile. i could have sworn he was the only one to make the direct connection of Revan attempting to protect the galaxy... i also thought he was the only one to make it clear, as he spoke with Kreia, Exile is a wound in the Force which is also the only time Kreia says Exile must therefore die. i could be wrong, but i vaguely remember thinking it was odd how that never gets pieced together for male Exile, and how not the Council nor Kriea say directly (other than with Mical) Exile is a wound in the Force and shoould die. But my memory isn't exactly stellar, as i've proved with Atris, so someone with a good memory would have to rebuke that. But i think the history he adds about Exile is enough on its own. It is the most the player finds out about pre-war Exile, IIRC. And certainly, male Exile doesn't find out so it isn't a big deal in that sense since the game can be finished without that knowledge, but one could argue the same about all the romance plots. Every outcome is basically the same (not in the cut Malachor V scenes) regardless of what the NPCs feel for the PC. Exile has very little to do with anything as far as that is concerned. So although Brianna adds some information about Kae and Yusanis, and we see a bit more of Atris, she really doesn't add anything either. Everything stays the same with or without her. But i question what does it matter what the NPC brings plot revelation wise, as i have from the begining. The NPCs should have their own merrits, be it skills, preferably personalities, their own backstories. Yes, people hate Mical. i know. But in a non-emotional and distanced evaluation, he isn't any worse than the other NPCs as far as his character and such go. How he was voice acted is a different story, as i said, it gave me the creeps. But Mical without all that overdone ickiness isn't all that bad. He is very skilled in many different areas, he makes a good fighter if leveled up as a soldier for a while and then he gets good Jedi powers, he is smart, and he is a nice change from all the angstiness among the rest of the core crew. [Jediphile]Actually, I felt a lot closer to Zez-Kai Ell, since he seemed to care far more about the Exile's situation and regret the masters decision than Kavar did, so I fear I'm going to have to doubt that greater meaning that you seem to think that Kavar carries in the game. Sorry. i understand why you like Zez-Kai Ell better than Kavar. i as a player felt the same way. i was looking forward to hearing what Kavar would have to say since he is supposed to have been one of Exile's Masters, and i was disappointed. But story wise, he is closer to Exile than Zez-Kai, and he is the only Master that was stated to have a personal bond with Exile. i'm not sure Zez-Kai showed much concern for Exile though. i thought he was more interested in his issues with the Council and ow he felt let down by them. Those 2 turned into very odd hypocrites on Dantooine though, so neither of them made any sense to me at that point anyway. Many went to war and those who did not had to pick-up the slack doing their Jedi things across the galaxy left with the others' abcenses. Seems perfectly plausible to me.[/color] [Jediphile]The time frame we're talking about is during the Mandalorian Wars, years before the Jedi Civil War. This was at a time when the jedi order had apparently been recovering from Exar Kun's Great Sith War for well over 30 years without particular incident. And we know that when Revan and Malak split the order, it was mostly the young jedi who heeded the call and went with them to war. Did this cost teachers? Yes, but given the context it makes no sense to me to suggest that it cost more teachers than young jedi students, since it consistently described as being all the young hotheads who rushed off the war, while the older and more experienced teachers generally stayed behind. Therefore Mical's statement of there being no teachers left makes no sense to me - if anything, there should have been more than before, since it was mostly the students who need teachers who had left. Any particular flaws with that logic? 30 years ago they lost a huge slew of Jedi. However long the war lasted, they didn't immediately jump into taking on a boat-load of padawans. They had to recooperate, get things sorted, and then go about Jedi life again. Their numbers were diminished. They were limited with the numbers of padawans they could teach. Slowly they add to their numbers as those padawans age. 30 years down the road, the younglings who came to them after the Exar Kun war head off to the Mandalorian Wars, those who, like Exile, are supposed to begin teaching new padawans. The number of older Jedi who survived the Exar Kun war are low, and now they have to go and take care of the extra responsibilities the first generation Jedi who left to go the Mandalorian wars were no longer fulfilling. So there logically should be a larger number of younglings who did not get to be taught since the older Jedi would have been teaching apprentices anyway, and many of those of their preceeding generation who were supposed to teach them, left. To me, that makes sense. [Jediphile]Then by what what standards would you evaluate significance of the characters? To me it would probably be something along the lines of: - Their impact on the game's greater plot. - How well written and characterized they are. - How consistently and logically - and dramatically - they act during the course of the plot. i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities [Jediphile]Fair enough, but that's still just presumption, since there is nothing to suggest Mical was ever in contact with Carth (or Cede) during the female Exile's plot. i can't contest that since i can't remember if Mical speaks of it or not. *pout* [Jediphile]I'm just glad we survived the "bumps" on the road... And obviously I would not still be here if I had a low opinion of you or your views. cue Snoopy-like happy dance and much smiling. Thank you. :D [Jediphile]And we finally agree on something... Maybe this'll set a trend... Gonna try to get to Atton stuff later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Blivion Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Do you make your posts that long so that you don't suffer a rebuttal or what? Still think the Male Exile is preferable to the female. Bao Dur - war buddy understanding. Atris - her stifled passions for the Exile have been poisoned by her pride, into open hate. Handmaiden; need her for the launch codes to the polar academy plus she's so much more interesting with her Echani backround, her betrayal of Atris to become a Jedi like her mother Arren Kae, and there is this little motivation she has because the Exile reminds her of her father. Nice stuff. Visas - a lot of depth, possible love angle with the Exile and she is definitely more worthy or should I say more likely to be considered an equal to the Exile than let's say, an Atton or a Mical. Basically, a lot points Jediphile has stated and restated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinokono Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Ok, I am a male gamer, but I feel that the story felt more "correct" with a female, I think that there was kind of a "mother daughter thing going on between kreia and the exile, as well as a jealous sister aspect with atris, and as for the romance (that was totally cut from the game) u had not only disciple, but Atton AND Bao Dur. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I just wanted to add one more thing, with Mira, u kind of had a best friend vibe about the Exile asking her "Do you understand men?" and Mira's hilarious reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Jediphile, as we delve into this deeper, it is getting more difficult to counter you. But we ain't through just yet... You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form (I find that seeing it that also has the benefit of making it far easier to accept it, when I have to concede a point to someone else ) [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] *be warned, humourous intent up ahead* Is it really fair to use the text dialogues to prove your point? *humourous threat has ended. Resume regular activities* Yup. Can't argue that. Brianna's dialogue is the same regardless, except for a "her" in place of a "him", the difference in Atris' dialogue is from the begining of your quote to the point where she speaks of judging Exile. So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. ...especially when first we begin to deceive... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Well, the point in admitting those emotions would be to let Brianna know she doesn't stand a chance, that's actually another reason for him to admit to those feelings, assuming he wants to have a chance with Brianna [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]for Exile to face reality, and for the player to have some clue what the heck is going on. Since everything the player gets to know on those subjects is through dialogues, it should be an indication of how Exile feels. *grumble* My apologies... [Jediphile]Possibly because I never played BG II and so didn't get the reference. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Blashphemer! Go rectify that right away. Choose Jaheira. Why would this surprise you - have we not already established me as one? [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Exile cannot be compared to Regan in anyway. I was not making a direct analogy - I was just using Reagan as an example. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Ok, they are both human and have as much personality as wet noodles, but you know what i mean. Exile was a Jedi. Jedi do heroic things.It's what they are known for. Pillars of light and goodness, defenders of the Republic, and all that Jedi goodness. (i guess the US is a republic too so that doesn't count in not comparing them so shhh.) Actually, not all the jedi seem to think so highly of the Exile [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]And i wasn't suggesting hero worship just *bing!* springs into a person's heart like that. Obviously there does have to be some reason for it. What i was saying, though, is it doesn't have to have come from a massive one time event, although it could. Such things could develop over time. In a sense, friendship can be like that a little too. And i still don't think any feelings nor affections felt for others can be controlled nor artificially created. Looking up to someone may stem in logic and reasoning; however; there are people whose actions or philosophies one may look up to without feeling anything for that person. And there are people one can admire eventhough they aren't all that admirable. That is why i said hero worship, especially such a potent case of it as Atris has for Exile, is an emotion that can occur without explanation. i do understand wanting to know why and how Atris' feelings for female Exile came about. It could be that Exile is good at Force bonding and Atris isn't so she admires Exile for it. Hmmm. I don't see Atris admiring Exile for an innate ability (i.e., an ability that the Exile was born with and did nothing on his/her own to promote - Exile was, after all, completely unaware of it). Admiration usually comes from impressive things people have done willfully, I think. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] But we don't get graced with an explination, so we gotta go on what we got. Which is what I find hurts the story. If Atris loves the male Exile, okay. I don't need an explanation for that, because in most cases nobody can explain why they love someone else, but rather just know they do. But I don't think admiration works the same way, and therefore the male Exile's relationship with Atris seems more compelling to me than the female Exile's. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] We do know in the Council Chambers when Exile is being exiled, Atris is just as furious at female Exile as male Exile. And as i have stated in earlier posts, i think that is powerful for a person to react that strongly without attraction having been the catalyst. Attraction naturally increases the effect of one's emotions for the other person. Now comparing the 2, Atris freaking out at male Exile with love, and Atris freaking out at female Exile without love, it seems more viscerally impactful that she is that affected by female Exile. Her feelings for her are honest in a sense. They aren't muddled with the confusion and amplifying aspect of attraction. Obviously attraction increases feelings and their effects. But female Exile got under Atris' skin without attraction as much as male Exile did. That doesn't take away from Atris' love for male Exile though. It is just how i see it. I don't think I could disagree more. For me to ever accept that for the female Exile, I would have to hear a really good explanation for Atris' admiration of her, but the plot gives me nothing. That's not good storytelling. One thing they could have done is made Atris the Exile's old master. That would have solved the problem by explaining Atris' admiration as pride in a padawan's potential. It also seems to be a fairly convenient solution. I find it very interesting that they did not do this... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i think if they had done it properly, that Sion has to die has quite an impact. Again, we can only go on what was in there. But i have read people state they felt Sion-Exile was powerful. Yes, as i have agreed, it sorta comes out of nowhere and implies those two were somehow feeling eachother for a long time, to which the player is left going "hun?" but the point is Exile wasn't going "hun?". The real problem is whether the player goes "huh?"... which I did. It seemed to come out of the blue, made no sense to me, and did not lead to anything revealing or worthwhile in the plot. Which in my eyes made it look too much like the devs were thinking they used the love-theme between Atris and male Exile, and so they had to do something similar between the female Exile and one of the bad guys, and then it got forced onto Sion because it was unfeasible for Nihilus. And that's how it felt to me - forced! [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] And when i thought about it, everything the player knows about Atris' feelings comes from cut-scenes that Exile isn't even involved in. So what? Brianna even comments on the male Exile's feelings for Atris, so it's not as if the Exile wasn't aware of it. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Again, i don't remember there being anything of significance in male Exile and Atris' last confrontation, so if there is, that changes things, but the player is given a bit more feel for Atris' romantic feelings than Sion's, but not all that much really. Of her anger though, in spades. You get several options for how to end story for Atris. Unless you choose to kill her, you can choose among these: Atris: "And what will you do with me now? Abandon me here on this dead world - or end my life, as I wished to end yours?" 1. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." 2. "I need you to see what you have become - and turn away from it." 3. "You will answer for your crimes before the Council, and then you shall return to your prison." 4. "You must return to your prison, Atris. And leave the battles to those who have the strength to fight them." [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. Why? [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Sion becomes significant if the player accepts he is significant. i accepted he is, and i saw him as having more depth and purpose than just being the big baddie who is boss #2. How his relationship to Kreia mirrored Exile's, how he was just abandoned by her and then taken up again to fight Exile is similar to how Kreia abandoned Exile on Dantooine. And that Sion didn't want that, he didn't want Kreia to harm Exile in the way he was harmed where Exile wouldn't have anything to live for without Kreia giving her purpose, so she wouldn't turn out to be a monster as he was, Yes, but this is just as relevant to the male Exile. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]that he was even willing to kill whom he cared for to protect her, that packs a punch. I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] That Sion was a product of Malachor V makes him important since it is Exile who ordered its destruction. Sion is a physical manifestation of Malachor V, and a very acute one at that: pain. And pain is what everyone touched by Malachor V is burdened with. i see Atton and Sion as very similar in that respect; they both were affected by Malachor V, but they suffered differently, yet, they are so similar.In the cut content, Atton says to Exile once Sion messes him up severly, "Always was ugly, now the outside matches". And that, i think, is one of the important things Sion does; he shows the ugliness of Malachor V, of Exile, of the whole blood-soiled crusade. Agreed, but again, the Exile's gender has no bearing on this, since it is true for Sion regardless. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] And that this monster can actually care for something, for someone through his pain, that also is important since it shows the others affected by Malachor V just might be able to too. That is entirely dependent on whether Sion is compelling enough for the player to accept his feelings as genuine. I found that more than difficult. Especially in the female Exile's story, where he spoke of feelings for me even as he tried to kill me - that does sort of make me doubt his words, somehow... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Wearing down his will, and that there is a difference in how that is done between male and female Exile is important, because with Sion giving up as he fights male Exile, it means something entirely different than when he lets go with female Exile. No, I don't agree, since I did not believe he was ever sincere. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] You are right though. All of what i said came from how i see things. We are told Sion is pain and such, but we really aren't given much on him, so we have to read into him what we can. i felt he was important, especially as he acted as a sort of hub where so many people's stories came together, how his path paralled others' paths, and how he was a representation of the pain Malachor V caused. He also served as a mirror to the Exile and her/his companions wherein it was shown just how tenuous their grasp on things really were. But i do understand how you feel it had no significance in the game. You also said you feel the Jedi Masters had no significance in the game. And i can understand that as well. I think I haven't explained myself well then. Sion is significant, but I don't think his emotions for the female Exile are compelling or believable in any way. The masters are significant, but they're not entirely consistent, since especially Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell appear to have changed a lot from when you first meet them and when you meet them at the council. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i'm not sure if they would have switched a youngling's or a padawan's master for her/him having some feelings of attraction. They would seem to have more likely used it as a tool to help him learn to master his feelings. i am certain as kids grow-up they would have all sorts of those feelings for a whole bunch of different people. That is only natural. i can't see why that would have been such a huge problem. Whereas a Jedi Master having such intence feelings, that would indeed have been a big problem i would think. Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Maybe Atris was never good at controlling her feelings and that is why she never got to instruct a padawan. Conjecture, i know, but the point is, a Master who has such feelings for a Jedi is a far more serious problem that a youth or a teen having those feelings for the same Jedi. Not only is a master strong in the Force, but a Master falling to the dark side, as Atris proved, is a far worse danger than the attraction a young padawan feels. Atris was literally freaking out after Exile's trial. She did not go about hiding her feelings in a terribly effective way. And it is the stupidity of the Jedi Council in this game with regards to Atris that makes me feel it damages the plot more than Mical's attraction does. The same thing happened in KotOR. Why the Jedi Council went about sending Revan on the Star Map mission when s/he was clearly DS when s/he got there, i will never know. That just seemed an incredibly stupid thing to do. And so the Council in KotOR II suffers with the same stupidity disease. They should have done something about Atris back then. Leaving her with such intence feelings would make it too easy for her to lose control and to fall to the dark side First of all, I think it works because it underscores the very denial of the jedi council that Zez-Kai Ell speaks off. The jedi masters are - collectively - arrogant, because they think they are always right and the younger jedi wrong, and they think they are themselves above the failings of the young. That's why Zez-Kai Ell's admission of how flawed the jedi have become is so significant to me. The master did not see many things. Atris' love is just one of them. I do not agree entirely on the masters in K1, though. How was it obvious that Revan was DS?!? And in any event, they had no choice but to send him on that journey, because that was the only way to find the starmaps and so the Starforge. Remember that while Revan and Bastila knew which planets they were on, it wasn't until Revan actually went to each planet that he gained a vision of its precisely location. And as Bastila explains, sending a master along would only have made them easier for Malak to find. But otherwise I agree, the masters have been ignorant, self-delusional, and generally unwilling to accept their own responsibility. Heck, Zez-Kai Ell even says it himself, and he's one of them, so there really is no surprise there. [Jediphile]I like Sion, but not as a romance option. It doesn't seem right for his character to me. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Out of intence curiosity, and i know i'll regret asking but oh well, why doesn't it seem right for his character? Because Sion is not characterized deeply enough to warrant such an attachment, and there seems to be no reason why he would suddenly develop it out of the blue. And to throw it in there in just six to ten lines is not enough to create the depth that a romance would require, especially if there is no backstory to establish it. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i think Bao-Dur has a complex psyche and intellect. I think he can see things from many different perspectives and he can see how things are woven together in the grand tapestry of life. i also think how he can reduce things to manageable sizes is in and of itself a difficult thing to do since many get overwhelmed in seeing so much. Bao-Dur doesn't get overwhelmed, he simplifies. Which is precisely why he is not complicated. He is very intelligent, yes, but does not have a complex psyche. Not because he is not a deep character, but because he insists on not allowing things to overwhelm him. He simplifies things, and that is his greatest strength. He openly admits that he hated the mandalorians and took pleasure in their death. That's a terrible thing to admit. Does it make Bao-Dur evil? No, because looks on it as a part of himself, an experience that is part of what he is now. Like other experiences, it has led him to be the person he is now. And you can see his simplication of things in how he responds to things like influence. You can sweettalk your way to influence with Bao-Dur. No, he has to see you do good deeds to gain respect for you. Even here you can see that he is a no-nonsense kind-of-guy, who won't put up with explanations of justification, innuendo, or manipulation. He refuses to consider anything but the value of your acts. He keeps it simple. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] But it's not as if he loses sight of things, its more like he says "OK. This is too big for me to deal with all at once. I am going to group these issues together here, and these other issues here. I'll deal with these ones first, and once I've done enough work on those, I'll move on to doing these. But I won't forget everything else; I'll keep it all in mind and work on it sub-consciouly as I deal with one group of problems than the next." So eventhough he makes it simple, he still thinks about the other stuff, and he still sees the big picture. And he knows what he can handle at once, which also takes self-awareness and an understanding of the issues. Yes and no. He keeps it separated and puts the stuff he cannot deal with yet out of his mind, so that he can concentrate on it later, when the first problem is solved and no longer requires his attention. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i wasn't getting at he was in a state of denial. i was saying as a consequence of how he deals with things, by his reducing and remaining mostly calm, he has taken to supressing his feelings. I don't see that at all. He openly admits his hatred for the mandalorians and the pleasure he took in killing them. But you just know as he says it, that he regrets having those feelings. That's not denial or suppression. That's dealing with them right then and there. But he is a rather reserved person, which probably comes from his long years apart from the Exile, where he had no one he could relate those emotions to. Bao-Dur is strong in that he has faced his demons alone and come to terms with them. Exile and Atton have been utterly unable to do the same. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] The only time he shows strong emotions i can remember off hand, is when Canderous pushes him too hard and when he confronts Kreia. He isn't emotional when he was being Jedified eventhough one would logically expect it to be so. Even when he is DS and Jedifies from giving into his anger, he still isn't very passionate about it. Why is that? i think for 2 reasons. The first is how he sees Exile as sacrosanct and a person he cannot get angry with regardless of what Exile does, and because he surpresses his feelings. When he speaks of the wars, he mentions how much hate and anger he felt, and how he now feels those were bad reasons to fight. He regrets he killed out of anger, and especially made the MSG out of anger. But he doesn't really connect with those feelings in a meaningful way. He chose to be active rather than emotional. I don't see it that way at all. On the contrary, he has already dealt with those emotions and closed the book on them. But they are part of the sum that he is now, and he never forgets that. If he doesn't connect with them, then it's because they are in his past and should stay there. And I don't think he sees the Exile as sacrosanct. The Exile was just there and someone he expects can understand his emotions, in which he is not entirely correct - the Exile is far more in denial than he is. But he can certainly be dismissive of the Exile, if he/she does something he doesn't like (DS acts). [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] So what i was saying is an intimate relationship might just be exactly what he needs to allow him to begin the process of getting in touch with his supressed emotions. Not only those of rage, regret, and frustration which he does allow himself to feel on occasion, but the whole spectrum of emotions he has denied himself since entering the war, such as joy, love, and so on. That sounds like the worst basis for ever being involved with someone to me. You shouldn't be with someone as a means of healing old wounds, because that suggests the other person is just a catalyst for you to deal with your own problems, and the other person does not deserve that. That's why I'm a bit skeptical about Brianna's feelings for the male Exile, since she sees too much of her father him for it to be entirely healthy. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Visas' backstory is the darkest of them all. And as such, it feels much more inappropriate for romantic endeavours than the others' do. There is a huge difference between being active participants in death and large scale slaughter, especially when actively instigating it and being aware of the consequences, contrasted to being an unsuspecting victim who feels all life around her die, and as if that wasn't devastating enough, to be made a slave to the one who destroyed it in the first place. i just can't agree with your assesment on the differences here. Trauma like that is extremely severe. It defies logic Visas isn't just a walking zombie or in a vegetative mental state. But she isn't, so she is in the game. But it really does feel off with Visas. But there is a major difference between Visas' background and that of Atton or Bao-Dur - Visas was not responsible for it. She has a lot of trauma to deal with, but there is no responsibility or guilt over her past for her to deal with. Nihilus destroyed her world and made her his servant. She had no choice in the matter. It's more like she was in a trance-like state until the Exile defeated her and awoke her from a nightmare. She may have great pain to deal with, but she seems quite determined in what the right course of action must be. There is no doubt or hesitation. She may seem submissive to the Exile, but I don't think she really is - to her the Exile is something that can destroy Nihilus, and she is determined to bring that about, even at the cost of her own life. She will tell nothing of Nihilus until she is convinced the Exile has the power to face him, and she can be openly dismissive the Exile's choices, if she feels it puts the Exile in danger. Since I like playing LS, that makes me prefer the male Exile, because otherwise Visas is just using the Exile as a weapon, which seems callous. If Visas also has feelings for the Exile, however, then humanizes her more, because she is in the dilemma of having to put the one she loves in harms way if Nihilus is to be defeated. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] As i said though, that interaction where she is reaching out and asks Exile to allow her to look upon him, that was a beautiful moment in the game. And it felt appropriate. However a relationship would seem to me to be entirely out of the question for a good long while, if ever. Visas doesn't even know who she is. It is only with Nihilus' death is she free of her servitude to him, but as we have seen, she already transfered that servitude onto Exile long before Nihilus died so she knew she would have a master no matter the outcome. No matter what way that is looked at, it is an unhealthy and imbalanced relationship. She puts everything in the Exile's hands, not only her life and her fate, but also her ability to hope and to feel. Surely Bao-Dur, Atton, and Sion's lives are dark and full of conflict and pain, but they have retained their individuality to a strong enough degree that they would not reshape who they are to please Exile. I disagree completely. Nobody succumbs to the Exile's will more than Atton does. Note how he sort of loses control over himself and follows the Exile into combat whether he wants to or not. That is not true for Visas. Bao-Dur is not relevant to consider in this context, since he is the same for either gender. As for Visas not knowing who she is, I never saw her doubting herself or her goals in the game. She is quite determined and certain about her priorities. And she does not put everything in the Exile's hands, except as a consequnce of her seeing the Exile as the only hope for the galaxy to survive Nihilus. It is not her own hopes she puts in the Exile's hands as much as the hope for survival for the entire galaxy. And as I've said above, her "servitude" for the Exile is not an act of submission but rather a dedication to her own greater goal. She cannot defeat Nihilus, but the Exile can, and so she does everything she can to bring that about. I find Sion irrelevant in this context, because his relationship with female Exile is forced and uncompelling. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] That is why i find the male Exile to be a weaker choice for cannon if it is based on romantic relationships, since the females are such Exile dependant characters. And the male love interests aren't? Atton feels so inferior that he dare not even admit his feelings, and if the Disciple bowed and scraped more than he does, the floor of the the Ebon Hawk would suffer a hull breach. No, I don't agree. Brianna is a bit unhealthy, as I've said, but she is strong enough that I'm wondering how long the relationship would last, once Brianna comes to terms with her past. And Visas does not submit to the Exile's will - she submits to her cause and the consequences that follows. But that is her choice and not the Exile's will. [Hekate]With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. [Jediphile]Precisely. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Preciely what? Again my dim-wit sense is tingling... i'm the dim-wit. Not you Mical can provide normalcy in a way that Atton never can. That's where Atton feels threatened by Mical, because he seems Mical having a relationship with female Exile that Atton can never hope for himself. Hence the confrontation between them in the cut content. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] With Bao-Dur and Atton, i can see how intimacy could help them in different ways. It would be different from eachother, of course, because they are such different people. i already spoke of Bao-Dur, how intimacy with someone who does understand the ugliness of Malachor V as well as the responsibility of being the one who put it into action could be good for him. Bao-Dur doesn't need intimacy to deal with his past. He has no problems doing so in the male Exile's story, and he doesn't even need friendship - he has already dealt with it and put it behind him. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]And corollary, it would be good for Exile since she would have to face stuff we assume she hasn't judging by her lack of reacting to things and by how she spoke with Bao-Dur about the MSG and whose fault it was, or rather wasn't. According to Exile, neither of theirs. Just a wee tad ' denial there, lass. The Exile (either gender) is far more in denial about the past than Bao-Dur is. Bao-Dur is at the state that the Exile is still trying to reach. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] With Atton, the reason it matters it is Exile is because he actually loves her. We don't find out in the game but it is in the cut Malachor V content. No one else would be able to reach him because no one else matters to him enough. Atton has a way of emotionally getting into people, and he would definitely do so with her. He already did way back on Peragus and the conversation they have on the Ebon Hawk before reaching Telos is one of the conversations wherein she shows the most personality in the whole game, that they mostly dump for the rest of it other than a few disjointed places on occasion . Atton, being more raw, emotional, and passionate would evoke such in her. Exile would bring some calm and centering to him. So i think their demons, although bad, are still ones they could heal together from. Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]But do they really blame themselves more than they should? i don't know. i think that is something no one could forget in a lifetime. It turns out an unexpected consequence of activating the MSG was the Force wound which bore Nihilus and ended-up destroying Katarr and goodness knows what else. That karmic burden, as Kreia spoke of when she told Exile of ripples and everything having far reaching consequences, is exactly what they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. Those ripples are the Exile's responsibility, not Bao-Dur's, since he was "just" another engineer at the time and not a jedi. He is not responsible for the consequences in the force, since he "just" created a warmachine that killed people. He was not the one who used it, however, and he was not the one who denied the force. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Ah, but I think what she longs for is life and all the feelings that comes with it. Nihilus is death incarnate, and Visas has been breathing that death for too long. She longs desperately for all the emotions and feelings of life. Note her comments in the cutscene where we first see her and Nihilus: Visas: "I have felt it, too, my lord... a disturbance in the Force. It was difficult to make out, my lord. At first it was such a quiet thing, I did not notice it. But now I wonder if it has always been there, I merely could not hear it before.The sound built so slowly, yet when you listen for it, you can make out the strains, even over the background life of the universe. Do you feel it is a thr-{threat? Gets choked off by Nihilus crushing her windpipe with the Force}{Whispering, as if being choked}You... you are the darkness in which all life dies, milord. All life... exists to feed your power, and my life... {he releases her, she collapses - the next is quiet, subservient}my life is yours.I beg you... please... let me die.{Deferent, a little firmer, now that she has her second wind - she is answering a question}Yes... this disturbance... echoes through the Force. I can follow it to its source... and bring it to you. I will leave at once, my lord." [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]i am confused. Where do you see her longing for emotions and life in that cut-scene? i got the opposite. She wants her torment to end. Hmm... again, it is fascinating how different perceptions can be... She is a void inside, her feelings dead. But suddenly she senses something from across the galaxy even over the oppressing presence of Nihilus. She shifts in her nightmare, taking a sudden and unexpected breath of the very life that seemed lost to the galaxy. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] 30 years ago they lost a huge slew of Jedi. However long the war lasted, they didn't immediately jump into taking on a boat-load of padawans. They had to recooperate, get things sorted, and then go about Jedi life again. Their numbers were diminished. They were limited with the numbers of padawans they could teach. Slowly they add to their numbers as those padawans age. 30 years down the road, the younglings who came to them after the Exar Kun war head off to the Mandalorian Wars, those who, like Exile, are supposed to begin teaching new padawans. The number of older Jedi who survived the Exar Kun war are low, and now they have to go and take care of the extra responsibilities the first generation Jedi who left to go the Mandalorian wars were no longer fulfilling. So there logically should be a larger number of younglings who did not get to be taught since the older Jedi would have been teaching apprentices anyway, and many of those of their preceeding generation who were supposed to teach them, left. To me, that makes sense. Makes no sense to me at all. You make it sound as if any and all jedi below the age of 30 or so left to fight with Revan and Malak, but that is not true. Revan split the jedi order. He did not destroy it, and the fact that there are jedi to fight him later in the Jedi Civil War would seem to prove that. Take a look at the jedi conclave on Dantooine in K1 - plenty of not old jedi around. I also don't see why the older jedi masters who lost their padawans to Revan's cause suddenly turned incapable of teaching younger padawans instead. As for Exar Kun leaving only few jedi left, I don't know where that came from. Many died, yes, but there was a lot of jedi on those ships above Yavin IV, and none of them seem to have died. The Mandalorian Wars were over thirty years later, which gave the order time enough time to recuperate and train several new generations of jedi. But it's not as if so much time had passed that all the old masters had just died. Sorry, but it doesn't add up, unless we suggest that the younglings are trained only by the young jedi who have just moved beyond the rank of padawan, and we know that is unlikely, since we saw Yoda train the padawans in Episode II. Were teachers lost. Sure. But I cannot see why the teachers alone left, but none of those padawans, who would have left their masters without an apprentice. Mical may suggest it, but both Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell tell us that they too lost padawans (Exile in Kavar's case) to Revan's cause. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities Why is ties to the Exile's personal history relevant? It's like you're saying a character is only interesting if he or she has a direct tie to the Exile's past. I don't agree with that at all. Atton and Brianna have no ties to the Exile, and their stories are quite rich anyhow. Besides, it hurts credibility if everything in a plot has relevance to the protagonist directly, since it suggests that nothing can take place in the rest of the universe. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Do you make your posts that long so that you don't suffer a rebuttal or what? Still think the Male Exile is preferable to the female.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's doubtful. Hekate and myself can both be very verbose, but since we're both here, it's unlikely one of us will get away with anything. Besides, DAWUSS has also joined in on the long posts once or twice. Bao Dur - war buddy understanding. Atris - her stifled passions for the Exile have been poisoned by her pride, into open hate. Handmaiden; need her for the launch codes to the polar academy plus she's so much more interesting with her Echani backround, her betrayal of Atris to become a Jedi like her mother Arren Kae, and there is this little motivation she has because the Exile reminds her of her father. Nice stuff. Visas - a lot of depth, possible love angle with the Exile and she is definitely more worthy or should I say more likely to be considered an equal to the Exile than let's say, an Atton or a Mical. Basically, a lot points Jediphile has stated and restated. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekate Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 (edited) Do you make your posts that long so that you don't suffer a rebuttal or what? No. As you can see, i get plenty rebuttals as you are rebutting me now. Now for the or what... even with all the details Jediphile and i get into, we still misunderstand what the other is getting at. Short and sweet leaves alot of room for misinterpretation. Still think the Male Exile is preferable to the female. i still think he isn't. Is that on its own satisfying? Bao Dur - war buddy understanding. Atris - her stifled passions for the Exile have been poisoned by her pride, into open hate. Handmaiden; need her for the launch codes to the polar academy plus she's so much more interesting with her Echani backround, her betrayal of Atris to become a Jedi like her mother Arren Kae, and there is this little motivation she has because the Exile reminds her of her father. Nice stuff. Visas - a lot of depth, possible love angle with the Exile and she is definitely more worthy or should I say more likely to be considered an equal to the Exile than let's say, an Atton or a Mical. Basically, a lot points Jediphile has stated and restated. Bao-Dur - yes. Atirs - went DS even with female Exile Handmaiden - sure, it is nice stuff. Never said it ain't. Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. Yeah, i kinda got that. [Jediphile,May 17 2006, 09:44 AM]You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form (I find that seeing it that also has the benefit of making it far easier to accept it, when I have to concede a point to someone else ) Which you haven't, i just happened to notice... Perhaps that " " should have been a [Hekate]So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. [Jediphile]...especially when first we begin to deceive... Is that an admission? [Jediphile]that's actually another reason for him to admit to those feelings, assuming he wants to have a chance with Brianna Do you mean "not to admit those feelings"? Then that would be starting it off with a lie. But if you meant it as is posted than that is indeed another reason why he wouldn't have lied. Hence furthering the argument of why we have to take what the characters say as being the truth (except where plot dictates otherwise) because it is all we have to go on. [Hekate]for Exile to face reality, and for the player to have some clue what the heck is going on. Since everything the player gets to know on those subjects is through dialogues, it should be an indication of how Exile feels. *grumble* [Jediphile]My apologies... *grumble* was at the game for making all this ambigousness, not at you. [Jediphile]I was not making a direct analogy - I was just using Reagan as an example. My appologies... Actually, i meant a politician (who just happened to be Reagan) versus a Jedi. Infact, there is very little here (as in not the Star Wars universe) that can be compared to Jedi. When you explained the point of a general understanding of why Ghandi is understandably seen as heroic, i was making the point Jedi are generally seen as heroic therefore it is easy for me to accept Exile did something or somethings Atris would see as heroic. [Jediphile]Actually, not all the jedi seem to think so highly of the Exile And that makes Atris loving Exile more believable how? That sounded alot more snarky than sincere but i can't think of how to rephrase it. [Jediphile]Hmmm. I don't see Atris admiring Exile for an innate ability (i.e., an ability that the Exile was born with and did nothing on his/her own to promote - Exile was, after all, completely unaware of it). Admiration usually comes from impressive things people have done willfully, I think. i can't agree with that. When i think of those who have natural talents i do not, i admire those people's skills. When i think of kids (adults even) who hero worship athletes, they often do so based on the athlete's skill and natural talent and not based on whether that athlete has done something good for them personally nor on if that athlete is a person the admirer would respect. Hero worship of that sort has more to do with what the admirer is attributing to the "worshipee" as opposed to being about the "worshipee's" true qualities. And Exile did make Force bonds. Even if Exile doesn't do it purposely, it occurs often enough for the Jedi Masters to have taken notice and for them to be impressed with. Not saying that is the case, just saying i can accept the hero worship without a stated cause as i can love without a reference base. [Jediphile]Which is what I find hurts the story. If Atris loves the male Exile, okay. I don't need an explanation for that, because in most cases nobody can explain why they love someone else, but rather just know they do. But I don't think admiration works the same way, and therefore the male Exile's relationship with Atris seems more compelling to me than the female Exile's. Usually i'd be inclined to agree about the love happens without a reason thing. Love is love, it just happens. End of story. But i felt just as lost about it with Atris as i did with Sion over the why. There was nothing personal about it in the least. Not one little memory, not one comment refering to it in anyway... To me, it felt thrown in there with the purpose of adding 'a hot Jedi chick' to the list of women who lust after male Exile. It is 10 years down the road. Carth was seen as a whiner for still being affected by his wife's death 4 years down the road. Atris being so furious with male Exile 10 years later based on her romantic feelings for him is, to me, not only creepy, but difficult to believe, especially for a Jedi Master and all. For anyone to identify that intencely with a person requires s/he has great difficulty distinguishing between the other person and her/himself. Romantic love does that to an extent, but there is more going on than that. Hero worship, especially if it went to the extreme it seems to have, makes more sense to me. Putting Exile up on a pedestal, especially one where Exile is seen to have been able to do no wrong and be the pillar of light and Jedi goodness (sorta the way you think Atton does for Exile but with differences), and mix in Atris expected Exile not to go to war which also justified in her own mind her not going to war, then Exile goes to war, Atris's world, and everything she used to keep herself elevated by in equating herself with Exile, is now gone. Hence, rather than look at herself, she blames Exile. Now that i can see burning at her soul for 10 years. It has little to do with Exile, and alot to do with Atris. If i'm lucky, that provided more clarity on my standpoint. [Jediphile]One thing they could have done is made Atris the Exile's old master. That would have solved the problem by explaining Atris' admiration as pride in a padawan's potential. It also seems to be a fairly convenient solution. I find it very interesting that they did not do this... Yup, that could have explained Atris feeling as if she failed and her being unable to accept that so her anger and inability to look at herself still lingers. [Jediphile]The real problem is whether the player goes "huh?"... which I did. It seemed to come out of the blue, made no sense to me, and did not lead to anything revealing or worthwhile in the plot. Which in my eyes made it look too much like the devs were thinking they used the love-theme between Atris and male Exile, and so they had to do something similar between the female Exile and one of the bad guys, and then it got forced onto Sion because it was unfeasible for Nihilus. And that's how it felt to me - forced! Nah, i don't buy the devs threw it in to equal things out. They likely would have chosen 'a hot Jedi hunk' for that instead. One would assume if they wanted to have the player feel something for the villain, the dev would have chosen to follow popular culture standards therefore Sion would have had to be more like *shudder in fear* Mical. i find it difficult to see they thought female players (whose interest i assume you are refering to by the evening out the "score" in the love interest of a villain category) would find Sion's feelings for female Exile appealing as a whole. Just look, they came up with Mical. i don't think they gave a hoot about making things even like that. It seems Sion was supposed to be alot more important in the game, all the antagonists actually, and Sion vs Atton was supposed to be a major event in female Exile's game. That battle wouldn't be as meaningful if it is just Atton who loves her as opposed to both Atton and Sion loving her (not saying Atton sacrificing himself isn't meaningful, it is. i just meant the battle itself). The only difference between Atris and Sion, when dealing with their respective loves, is the dialogue is a bit altered. There aren't any extra cut-scenes as there is with Atton (asking Boa-Dur about Exile), which could mean both were thrown in, or poorly cut out. [Jediphile]So what? Brianna even comments on the male Exile's feelings for Atris, so it's not as if the Exile wasn't aware of it. Brianna asks him if he had feelings for Atris. She, on the other hand, makes it quite clear how she feels about his feelings for Visas if his influence is high with Visas and low with Brianna. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Again, i don't remember there being anything of significance in male Exile and Atris' last confrontation, so if there is, that changes things, but the player is given a bit more feel for Atris' romantic feelings than Sion's, but not all that much really. Of her anger though, in spades. [Jediphile]You get several options for how to end story for Atris. Unless you choose to kill her, you can choose among these: Atris: "And what will you do with me now? Abandon me here on this dead world - or end my life, as I wished to end yours?" 1. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." 2. "I need you to see what you have become - and turn away from it." 3. "You will answer for your crimes before the Council, and then you shall return to your prison." 4. "You must return to your prison, Atris. And leave the battles to those who have the strength to fight them." Ayup. Same with female Exile, is what i was getting at. There is no love confession etc... But the point of Sion has to die no matter what goes on is true and uncontested. i thought her deciding to stay and die came after that part of the conversation though. And i also thought that is what she and Kreia were talking about post the Jedi Master massacre on Dantooine; once Atris realized Kreia was lying, she saw there was no place left her since she felt she couldn't be redeemed. i could be entirely wrong with that though. It's just how i thought of it after playing. [Hekate]Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. [Jediphile]Why? 'cause he had been on her mind. To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. Why more meaningful depending on how the Atton-Sion fight goes? Because if she loves Atton, he gets killed. If she loves Sion, then he kills her companion. If she loves both of them, than she has feelings for someone who just killed someone she had feelings for too. If she loves neither of them, than their feelings hold their own worth and it is a powerful image since both did things for her she will never care about. All in all, significant i say. [Jediphile]Yes, but this is just as relevant to the male Exile. We were speaking of the significance of Sion's death and how it pertained specifically to the romace plot with Exile. You're saying "So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all." is why i tried to explain why Sion's death held impact and his caring for female Exile mattered to the game. If he died just because he had had enough and he realized he could never live-up to what Kreia saw in Exile, than his death came about from just that. On the other hand, if he died because he realized he was wrong and that his caring for Exile is stronger than his need to stay alive, than that is important. Exile had a direct impact on his death either way. The distinction lies in Sion's motivation of either giving up, or on letting go. And his letting go carries other meanings as i have pointed out in earlier posts. [Jediphile]I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. He certainly makes it more clear than Atris does, and she tries to kill Exile after she had let him go the first time because Kreia told her she would be the next Darth Traya. By having that be the reason, they reduce the impact of her loving him by virtue of her attempt on his life has nothing to do with him. Whereas with Sion, his letting go instead of giving in increases the impact of his loving her. And i know the whole point of Atris having to kill Exile specifically is a sort of Sith rite to bring her to the DS, but as with Sion, she tries to kill all incarnations of Exile even if she did love male Exile. [Jediphile]Agreed, but again, the Exile's gender has no bearing on this, since it is true for Sion regardless. Atton only sacrifices himself for female Exile so of course it has bearing on his importance. Or did i completely misunderstand what you were saying? [Jediphile]That is entirely dependent on whether Sion is compelling enough for the player to accept his feelings as genuine. I found that more than difficult. Especially in the female Exile's story, where he spoke of feelings for me even as he tried to kill me - that does sort of make me doubt his words, somehow... Does that mean Atris' feelings for Exile went away when she tried to kill him? Do we then doubt she loved him at all and it was all just a ruse so he would let his guard down when she finally did try to kill him? No, of course not. i find it hard to believe she would try to kill someone she loves just because Kreia told her to. i fail to see the logic of Sion lying about his feelings to female Exile at that point. He explains he would rather she die than lose to Kreia and have her become broken as he was. He asked her to leave rather than go to Kreia; however; female Exile did not have that option so she had to participate in Sion's death since by his very nature, the consequence for him to accept he was wrong about the views he held, was death. Atris doesn't tell male Exile her feelings. Male Exile doesn't get the dialogue option to even aknowlege her feelings nor to suggest his own. Female Exile gets to say Sion is a presence in her mind, he gets to tell her she is important to him. The fact she says "as well" with regard to him being a presence in her mind indicates she believes what he is saying is true. *confusion* [Jediphile]No, I don't agree, since I did not believe he was ever sincere. Why not? What indication was there of him not being sincere? [Jediphile]The masters are significant, but they're not entirely consistent, since especially Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell appear to have changed a lot from when you first meet them and when you meet them at the council. That they do, and i think saying "not entirely" is being a little generous. Those were the only dialogues they had in the game, other than Kavar who had scenes with Talia and a brief talk with Exile in the cantina wherein nothing significant about this issue was said. To me, that was a huge blunder on the devs part and messed-up my understanding of the whole Force wounds and bonding with Kreia themes, and left me wondering if Exile had been speaking with doppelgangers. [Jediphile]Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) i'm not sure how well the 2 can be compared; a child being removed from her/his family, and a youth having an attraction to her/his master. Mical said he felt awe and things along those lines. There is nothing to indicate an intence crush or lust. Most likely, if his feelings were strong enough to warrant it, they would have done something about it, but they obviously were not. [Jediphile]First of all, I think it works because it underscores the very denial of the jedi council that Zez-Kai Ell speaks off. The jedi masters are - collectively - arrogant, because they think they are always right and the younger jedi wrong, and they think they are themselves above the failings of the young. That's why Zez-Kai Ell's admission of how flawed the jedi have become is so significant to me. The master did not see many things. Atris' love is just one of them. ...But otherwise I agree, the masters have been ignorant, self-delusional, and generally unwilling to accept their own responsibility. Heck, Zez-Kai Ell even says it himself, and he's one of them, so there really is no surprise there. Vash said (paraphrasing) "We do not cast blame, we take responsibility Atris" which to me indicates she, at least, sees a problem with the severity of Atris' feelings. i find it very difficult to believe they would have done absolutely nothing about it. As on their high horse and infalible as they believe themselves to be, Atris' feelings posed the real and forseeable danger she would fall to the DS. Such strong emotions are the very thing they guard against the most. Also, i thought Zez-Kai Ell was speaking his doubts about the Jedi teachings as a whole rather than casting blame on the Masters. He did say he left the Order the day Exile was exiled since he felt they should have asked why Exile chose to defy the Council, but then he speaks of how Exile's wound made them affraid and they couldn't deal with it. But that is quite different than counselling a fellow Master on controling her feelings. The strength of a Jedi comes from them never having to stand alone. By ignoring Atris' feelings and letting her isolate herself through their intencity, they are intentionally cutting her off from the Jedis' source of strength. i just can't see that, especially not given how fond of deliberating, minding eachother's business, and meditating on problems they are. [Jediphile]I do not agree entirely on the masters in K1, though. How was it obvious that Revan was DS?!?And in any event, they had no choice but to send him on that journey, because that was the only way to find the starmaps and so the Starforge. Remember that while Revan and Bastila knew which planets they were on, it wasn't until Revan actually went to each planet that he gained a vision of its precisely location. And as Bastila explains, sending a master along would only have made them easier for Malak to find. Oops! i could have made that more clear. i meant if, when meeting the Council for the first time, Revan is obviously DS (in the DS alignment range, especially at point wherein it shows in Revan's features), why did they send her/him without a Master leaving Bastila out to dry with her having a strong bond with Revan, especially since she is so important with her battle meditation? That did not make any sense to me whatsoever. Nor did the whole sending them without a Master because it would draw too much attention. How so? Masters can hide their presences, can they not? The risk of sending them without one far outweighs the risk of sending one, i would think... [Jediphile]Because Sion is not characterized deeply enough to warrant such an attachment, and there seems to be no reason why he would suddenly develop it out of the blue. And to throw it in there in just six to ten lines is not enough to create the depth that a romance would require, especially if there is no backstory to establish it. i see. [Jediphile]Which is precisely why he is not complicated. He is very intelligent, yes, but does not have a complex psyche. Not because he is not a deep character, but because he insists on not allowing things to overwhelm him. He simplifies things, and that is his greatest strength. He openly admits that he hated the mandalorians and took pleasure in their death. That's a terrible thing to admit. Does it make Bao-Dur evil? No, because looks on it as a part of himself, an experience that is part of what he is now. Like other experiences, it has led him to be the person he is now. And you can see his simplication of things in how he responds to things like influence. You can sweettalk your way to influence with Bao-Dur. No, he has to see you do good deeds to gain respect for you. Even here you can see that he is a no-nonsense kind-of-guy, who won't put up with explanations of justification, innuendo, or manipulation. He refuses to consider anything but the value of your acts. He keeps it simple. Hmm. i think he does have a complex psyche and things aren't as unentangled within him as they seem. When he speaks of Malachor V, he does not do so as if it was something of his past that has been dealt with. There even is the cut-scene where he and Exile couldn't sleep and he tells Exile of his dream of the MSG activation and he tells Exile the event is within him still. It is embeded in his psyche, he can't escape it. Exile listening in on the crew's thoughts hears Bao-Dur's echo "Malachor V". When he speaks with Exile about his being affected by her/him during the Jedification, he tells Exile he blames himself for both building the MSG, and for activating it. Exile counters, yet still Bao-Dur tells Exile he cannot see it that way. He tells Exile he may have to see himself as responsible, and through that, he attempts to atone. The fact he says it is something he might have to see that way indicates he is aware that he doesn't have to because there are other ways of looking at it, as Exile pointed out, but he also can see he needs to for his psychological and emotional stability. He can see what would happen to him if he let himself let go of that, as well as what is by refusing to let go of it. Bao-Dur knows himself quite well, but he is still very much at odds with himself. That he holds onto the notion Exile is not to blame for giving the order whereas he is for acting on that order shows he aknowledges his own falibility and he has a clarity of understanding his own responsibility, yet he cannot clearly see his insisting Exile is not responsible is delusional. [Hekate]But it's not as if he loses sight of things, its more like he says "OK. This is too big for me to deal with all at once. I am going to group these issues together here, and these other issues here. I'll deal with these ones first, and once I've done enough work on those, I'll move on to doing these. But I won't forget everything else; I'll keep it all in mind and work on it sub-consciouly as I deal with one group of problems than the next." So eventhough he makes it simple, he still thinks about the other stuff, and he still sees the big picture. And he knows what he can handle at once, which also takes self-awareness and an understanding of the issues. [Jediphile]Yes and no. He keeps it separated and puts the stuff he cannot deal with yet out of his mind, so that he can concentrate on it later, when the first problem is solved and no longer requires his attention. **joke begins* *Sigh* So close, yet so far.... *joke ends** [Jediphile]I don't see that at all. He openly admits his hatred for the mandalorians and the pleasure he took in killing them. But you just know as he says it, that he regrets having those feelings. That's not denial or suppression. That's dealing with them right then and there. But he is a rather reserved person, which probably comes from his long years apart from the Exile, where he had no one he could relate those emotions to. Bao-Dur is strong in that he has faced his demons alone and come to terms with them. Exile and Atton have been utterly unable to do the same. We agree he isn't in denial (other than about the responsibility Exile had in events). And he is strong for not running from his responsibilities nor from the intencity of the emotions he used to feel. The unique thing about him is he is in a different place psychologically than everyone else. This is where we differ on this; he does surpress his feelings. When Exile does something evil, he calmly says (paraphrasing) "I only follow you because of what we have been through together General". That is him supressing the anger, disappointment, and myriad of other different things he feels so he can go on doing what he is. He changed from who he was during the Mandalorian Wars. From being an emotion driven person reacting to emotional stimulus (he even enlisted out of hate and anger), to being a reserved person who tries to do things following reason by surpressing his emotions. He does not like where his emotions had lead him. In order to not become the same monster he was, he has learned to control his anger and other emotions through supressing them. i also think Atton has dealt with some of his demons. Just leaving the Sith was him facing things about himself he hadn't dared to before. Certainly, he was still affraid. During the Jedification he tells Exile he was too affraid of it changing him when that Jedi sought him out so he killed her for showing him the truth. Then he tells Exile he isn't affraid of that anymore. He is still messed-up. No doubt about it. But he does see more than just what is obvious, and he does have self-knowledge. [Jediphile]I don't see it that way at all. On the contrary, he has already dealt with those emotions and closed the book on them. But they are part of the sum that he is now, and he never forgets that. If he doesn't connect with them, then it's because they are in his past and should stay there. And I don't think he sees the Exile as sacrosanct. The Exile was just there and someone he expects can understand his emotions, in which he is not entirely correct - the Exile is far more in denial than he is. But he can certainly be dismissive of the Exile, if he/she does something he doesn't like (DS acts). As stated above, they aren't in his past since he is still effected by it during the game. i do think he sees Exile as sacrosanct. There is no other reason i can fathom why he is so rational about everything other than Exile. Exile gave the order. Bao-Dur cannot accept Exile bears the responsibility that now rests on her/his shoulders because of it. Yet he can accept his own. There has to be some reason for that, some reason why he doesn't let Exile bear her/his rightful burden of responsibility and guilt. [Jediphile]That sounds like the worst basis for ever being involved with someone to me. You shouldn't be with someone as a means of healing old wounds, because that suggests the other person is just a catalyst for you to deal with your own problems, and the other person does not deserve that. That's why I'm a bit skeptical about Brianna's feelings for the male Exile, since she sees too much of her father him for it to be entirely healthy. i never said it is a good basis to go into a relationship consciously expecting nor thinking of. i was explaining how a relationship between them would affect them, and by extension why it wouldn't necesarily be a bad thing for them. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Visas' backstory is the darkest of them all. And as such, it feels much more inappropriate for romantic endeavours than the others' do. There is a huge difference between being active participants in death and large scale slaughter, especially when actively instigating it and being aware of the consequences, contrasted to being an unsuspecting victim who feels all life around her die, and as if that wasn't devastating enough, to be made a slave to the one who destroyed it in the first place. i just can't agree with your assesment on the differences here. Trauma like that is extremely severe. It defies logic Visas isn't just a walking zombie or in a vegetative mental state. But she isn't, so she is in the game. But it really does feel off with Visas. [Jediphile]But there is a major difference between Visas' background and that of Atton or Bao-Dur - Visas was not responsible for it. She has a lot of trauma to deal with, but there is no responsibility or guilt over her past for her to deal with. Nihilus destroyed her world and made her his servant. She had no choice in the matter. The level of effect being the victim of a severe trauma versus the perpetrator of a severe trauma is so completely differential in scale and scope. There most certainly is guilt involved in the complex intermixing of emotions Visas experiences. When she speaks with Exile about Katarr, she mentions she questions why she survived. Having something of that scale occur as she could do nothing other than live through it, even losing herself to the point wherein she sees life as ugly and abhorent, that does not go away with an epiphany nor a single event, not even with the death of the one who caused such destruction in the first place. And Exile is the one who caused the cataclysmic event creating the Force wound from which Nihilus, hence the resultant destruction of Katarr, was made. Then she made herself Exile's servant. That does not bode well for her psyche, nor for her being able to heal. [Jediphile]It's more like she was in a trance-like state until the Exile defeated her and awoke her from a nightmare. i disagree she was in a trance-like state and she had a sudden perception change when he defeated her. She was quite aware when she spoke with Nihilus in the cut-scene, even making the decision to take a shot at him by asking him if he is affraid of the "noise" she picked-up on. Now certainly, one could assume she was in a disociative state of mind while serving Nihilus; however; that way of perceiving and experiencing life does not simply change with one event. The brain requires adjustment to the changes, especially if that is how one survived through ongoing psychological and emotional strain. [Jediphile]She may have great pain to deal with, but she seems quite determined in what the right course of action must be. There is no doubt or hesitation. She may seem submissive to the Exile, but I don't think she really is - to her the Exile is something that can destroy Nihilus, and she is determined to bring that about, even at the cost of her own life. She will tell nothing of Nihilus until she is convinced the Exile has the power to face him, and she can be openly dismissive the Exile's choices, if she feels it puts the Exile in danger. Since I like playing LS, that makes me prefer the male Exile, because otherwise Visas is just using the Exile as a weapon, which seems callous. She doesn't say, until before the Ravager when speaking with male Exile on the Ebon Hawk, she thinks perhaps life can be something to value. When on Onderon, and the Vaklu soldiers attack the cantina, she wants to slaughter everyone to rid the galaxy of the festering life she sees people represent. i don't think her priority is to kill Nihilus before the Ravager. i think it is to get Exile as strong as possible so s/he can feed Nihilus better. That was her mandate afterall. To bring that thing she felt to Nihilus. i think it wasn't until later, when she realized what Exile is, could she even fathom the notion Nihilus could be defeated. And i don't see that as callous. i see that as her severely traumatized and following her programming. [Jediphile]If Visas also has feelings for the Exile, however, then humanizes her more, because she is in the dilemma of having to put the one she loves in harms way if Nihilus is to be defeated. From a certain point of view, Visas having feelings for male Exile isn't necessarily of itself a bad thing. It might even be seen as a good sign she is able to feel a bit of a broader range of emotions again. What i am saying is she is still way too severly traumatized for anything positive to come of it if he pursued, especially since Exile is as deep in denial and unaffected by others' needs as he (and female Exile) seems to be. Adding more dilemas to Visas though, seems to be more cruel and to be pushing things with her character too far as opposed to being more humanizing. Thankfully she was aware of the confrontation's inevitability from the start. And yes, if she loves Exile than that is him getting into harm's way; however; she did ask him to stay and not confront Nihilus thus he is putting himself in harm's way. And that you said she is doing it is telling. Visas will take that burden onto herself eventhough it really doesn't belong there. And that is one example that depicts why i feel the devs adding her loving Exile to the already heavily burdened character takes away from the plot and from her character development. [Jediphile]I disagree completely. Nobody succumbs to the Exile's will more than Atton does. Note how he sort of loses control over himself and follows the Exile into combat whether he wants to or not. That is not true for Visas. Bao-Dur is not relevant to consider in this context, since he is the same for either gender. As for Visas not knowing who she is, I never saw her doubting herself or her goals in the game. She is quite determined and certain about her priorities. And she does not put everything in the Exile's hands, except as a consequnce of her seeing the Exile as the only hope for the galaxy to survive Nihilus. It is not her own hopes she puts in the Exile's hands as much as the hope for survival for the entire galaxy. And as I've said above, her "servitude" for the Exile is not an act of submission but rather a dedication to her own greater goal. She cannot defeat Nihilus, but the Exile can, and so she does everything she can to bring that about. I find Sion irrelevant in this context, because his relationship with female Exile is forced and uncompelling. He loses control of himself because of the bond and because killing is something he has ingrained in him. He isn't pleased about it and even said so the first time when he asked for some warning for next time. As the game goes on, his protests turn into agreement if he is DS (don't know if alignment has an effect on that, i assume it doesn't) which signify he is turning DS and following more his ingrained assassin behaviour. Visas and Atton both gain influence with kind and cruel acts because of their histories. However, Atton isn't anymore affected by Exile's killing innocents than any of the others. Mira admits killing with Exile has become easy, and it frightens her. Brianna also has a similar reaction of jumping in and killing eventhough if she were not with Exile, she wouldn't, and it disturbs her. i have never seen Visas refuse combat. i can't see why she would since she hates all life and wants to put an end to the chaos of living things. We diverge on the concept of what Visas' goals are. i saw her initial goal to be to bring Exile to Nihilus. You saw her goal as destroying Nihilus. Visas' servitude seems quite apparent to me. After besting her in combat she is confused why Exile would let her live and she tells Exile (paraphrasing) "you are stronger than I. I have nothing to offer." That speaks to her state of mind of her being a servant who can see value in herself only in terms of what she can bring to the other. i also saw her sacrificing herself on the Ravager as being done for Exile and not to defeat Nihilus since she first questions if he is certain. When he states he is, she does so. When it is not offered as a suggestion, she does not offer herself up for them to kill Nihilus. [Jediphile]And the male love interests aren't? Atton feels so inferior that he dare not even admit his feelings, and if the Disciple bowed and scraped more than he does, the floor of the the Ebon Hawk would suffer a hull breach. No, I don't agree. Brianna is a bit unhealthy, as I've said, but she is strong enough that I'm wondering how long the relationship would last, once Brianna comes to terms with her past. And Visas does not submit to the Exile's will - she submits to her cause and the consequences that follows. But that is her choice and not the Exile's will. Atton does not change who he is to suit what his idea of what Exile wants him to be. Atton remains true to himself throughout, eventhough he isn't sure who he is. It is not as if Atton has a sudden Exile induced epiphany and has become a pious celebate monk. He does change, but it is a part of his personal growth or regression depending on his alignment. Though that could be significantly different with the cut-content. They had to have Kreia force him into staying on with Exile to explain why he would stay, since he certainly would not have done so of his own volition, not even for female Exile. Mical bows once. On Dantooine. As a greeting. He bows to male Exile too. Mical in no way changes who he is nor how he views things, he openly disagrees with her about her exile, he teachers her meditation, and he explains things to her (about stuff she should know too... ), and tells her she is wrong. Mical is not weak and maleable, nor does he do nor say things to please her. He says what he thinks and feels and if she doesn't like it, so be it. [Hekate]With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. [Jediphile]Precisely. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Preciely what? Again my dim-wit sense is tingling... i'm the dim-wit. Not you [Jediphile]Mical can provide normalcy in a way that Atton never can. That's where Atton feels threatened by Mical, because he seems Mical having a relationship with female Exile that Atton can never hope for himself. Hence the confrontation between them in the cut content. Oh. i thought you were disagreeing with me and wrote "preciely" as a way of saying that proved your point. [Jediphile]Bao-Dur doesn't need intimacy to deal with his past. He has no problems doing so in the male Exile's story, and he doesn't even need friendship - he has already dealt with it and put it behind him. He needs something to light the metaphorical fire under him to get him going. Just saying an intimate relationship would do that. [Jediphile]The Exile (either gender) is far more in denial about the past than Bao-Dur is. Bao-Dur is at the state that the Exile is still trying to reach. i didn't see any sign at all that i can recall of Exile wanting to deal with her/his issues which is a reason i think something that isn't tragic nor includes killing is what Exile needs since s/he deals with those without it affecting her/him deeply. [Jediphile]Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... i disagree with that. Atton in part wants to be able to do as she can, but there is far more to it than that. From the begining he saw Exile's weaknesses, and weakness is not something he finds appealing, and his natural inclination is to exploit it which he chooses not to do. Also from the begining, he saw Exile's strengths, her/his courage and determination. He didn't even know about the dark past at that point. When Exile is DS, he voices his discontent strongly. When Exile is LS, he speaks of it being good. To me, that indicates he is working on changing, and he is doing so regardless of what Exile does. He is a complicated person who is torn in many different directions. i do concede though, at the end of the day, his alignment and if he falls back into the pattern of his Revan days, depends a great deal on Exile. That is the nature of Exile's Force bond. Visas has the exact same large and actuated alignment deciding based on Exile. Atton and Visas' pasts are the reasons for their maleability. [Jediphile]Those ripples are the Exile's responsibility, not Bao-Dur's, since he was "just" another engineer at the time and not a jedi. He is not responsible for the consequences in the force, since he "just" created a warmachine that killed people. He was not the one who used it, however, and he was not the one who denied the force. It was Bao-Dur's hands that not only built the MSG, but also that activated it. When he speaks with Exile about the dream, he reveals he was the one to 'push the button' It was at Exile's command, but that act and its inception lie solely on Bao-Dur. He did not know, nor could he have forseen the impact that would have on the Force, nor that it created a DS power spot. But intentions do not take away from reality. He is responsible for his creation and for its use. Exile is responsible for ordering its use and for rejecting the Force. [Jediphile]She is a void inside, her feelings dead. But suddenly she senses something from across the galaxy even over the oppressing presence of Nihilus. She shifts in her nightmare, taking a sudden and unexpected breath of the very life that seemed lost to the galaxy. What she saw, unless i am mistaken, is Exile's lack of connection to the Force. Exile's wound and the nothing the Jedi Masters saw. That would be very akin to Nihilus. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]30 years ago they lost a huge slew of Jedi. However long the war lasted, they didn't immediately jump into taking on a boat-load of padawans. They had to recooperate, get things sorted, and then go about Jedi life again. Their numbers were diminished. They were limited with the numbers of padawans they could teach. Slowly they add to their numbers as those padawans age. 30 years down the road, the younglings who came to them after the Exar Kun war head off to the Mandalorian Wars, those who, like Exile, are supposed to begin teaching new padawans. The number of older Jedi who survived the Exar Kun war are low, and now they have to go and take care of the extra responsibilities the first generation Jedi who left to go the Mandalorian wars were no longer fulfilling. So there logically should be a relatively large number of younglings who did not get to be taught since the older Jedi would have been teaching apprentices anyway, and many of those of their preceeding generation who were supposed to teach them, left. To me, that makes sense. [Jediphile]Makes no sense to me at all. You make it sound as if any and all jedi below the age of 30 or so left to fight with Revan and Malak, but that is not true. Revan split the jedi order. He did not destroy it, and the fact that there are jedi to fight him later in the Jedi Civil War would seem to prove that. Take a look at the jedi conclave on Dantooine in K1 - plenty of not old jedi around. I also don't see why the older jedi masters who lost their padawans to Revan's cause suddenly turned incapable of teaching younger padawans instead. As for Exar Kun leaving only few jedi left, I don't know where that came from. Many died, yes, but there was a lot of jedi on those ships above Yavin IV, and none of them seem to have died. The Mandalorian Wars were over thirty years later, which gave the order time enough time to recuperate and train several new generations of jedi. But it's not as if so much time had passed that all the old masters had just died. Sorry, but it doesn't add up, unless we suggest that the younglings are trained only by the young jedi who have just moved beyond the rank of padawan, and we know that is unlikely, since we saw Yoda train the padawans in Episode II. Were teachers lost. Sure. But I cannot see why the teachers alone left, but none of those padawans, who would have left their masters without an apprentice. Mical may suggest it, but both Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell tell us that they too lost padawans (Exile in Kavar's case) to Revan's cause. i re-read the paragraph i wrote, and i must say, i am not sure why you are stating i said most of the Jedi died during the Exar Kun Wars, nor that i implied the older Jedi did not take on padawans. I clearly state they most likely did. Jolee in KotOR spoke of the Exar Kun Wars splitting the Order and many Jedi died, leaving the Order weakened and with severly reduced numbers since many went to the DS, and others died fighting those who left. Based on that, those who had padawans and those who were to teach them, were lost, leaving a rather large youngling population without the chance to become padawans. A similar thing occured with the Mandalorian Wars. Except not as many left to fight, and most of the older generations remained with the yonger post-Exar generations leaving. They were at teaching age, therefore when they left, a larger number of youngling were left without those who could teach them. The older Jedi who did not leave had to pick-up the slack, and they most likely took on padawans for training, but there is still a hole in the heirarchy, and there are still missing teachers. Judging from what Mical recounted, he was supposed to become Exile's padawan. i don't know if those who left were thought to return so their intended padawans were left for them or not, but i do find it believable the dent put into the Order was enough to hinder the making younglings into padawans process. [Hekate] i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities [Jediphile]Why is ties to the Exile's personal history relevant? It's like you're saying a character is only interesting if he or she has a direct tie to the Exile's past. I don't agree with that at all. Atton and Brianna have no ties to the Exile, and their stories are quite rich anyhow. Besides, it hurts credibility if everything in a plot has relevance to the protagonist directly, since it suggests that nothing can take place in the rest of the universe. Did i say it is the only important factor? Did i say it is the most important factor? Did i say a character is less significant without a personal tie to Exile? Nope. i didn't at that. The only reasons i can think of having a personal history is important is: to establish a better sense of the background in the story, it gives Exile a foundation in the game world, it gives different relationship potentials to Exile, and it has the potential to bring more or different meanings to the events in the game. i've also stated i'm not sure that is a good basis to judge the character's worth. However it cannot be denied 2 people having a shared history of some sort is significant. The question is what weight should it be given when deciding the extent of the character's overall effect and how to "score" it. Edited May 18, 2006 by Hekate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Blivion Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. I'd anticipated that you'd write that. So here goes my reasoning. She is the last of the Miraluka: just like the Exile is purpoted to be the last of the Jedi (at least the last of the Jedi who can do somethign about the Sith). She is a seer of great wisdom. she is true to herself. She wasn't some shallow soldier who killed Jedi for the hell of it. She isn't some hapless, love sick fruit, who left the Jedi because the Master (they loved) went to war - nothing compelling there. She's a former apprentice of Nihilus (an uber powerful Sith Lord if there ever was one) and she knows - just as much as the Exile, what loss is. Are those good enough reasons for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekate Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. I'd anticipated that you'd write that. So here goes my reasoning. She is the last of the Miraluka: just like the Exile is purpoted to be the last of the Jedi (at least the last of the Jedi who can do somethign about the Sith). She is a seer of great wisdom. she is true to herself. She wasn't some shallow soldier who killed Jedi for the hell of it. She isn't some hapless, love sick fruit, who left the Jedi because the Master (they loved) went to war - nothing compelling there. She's a former apprentice of Nihilus (an uber powerful Sith Lord if there ever was one) and she knows - just as much as the Exile, what loss is. Are those good enough reasons for you? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Be that as it may, it does not alter the fact she is subserviant to Exile which by definition prevents them from being equals. So, in the context of their equality, no, those aren't good enough reasons for me. Since you dislike long answers, i'll refrain from rebutting the rest of your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Blivion Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 She is subservient to the Exile, to serve a purpose. Notice how she never agrees to lead the Exile to Nihilus (as "subservient" as she is) because she feels he is not strong enough for Nihilus. I like arguing - believe me - but it's hard to argue when someone refuses to concede to very solid reasoning. Compared to Atton and Mical, Visas is certainly a more (for lack of wanting, to use a softer word) worthy romantic option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts