Hekate

To risk sounding cheeky, that would be the "apathy is death" option... Any other ideas on why choosing to side with Kreia is LS?

i didn't know you had played through.

Good luck

You're right about game mechanics and the d20 leveling system interfering with a logical progression of characters improving. So, yes, if looking at it from a game mechanics point of view, that the main character has to be the "best", "toghest", whatever, does mess up the logic behind things being that way. Frankly, i don't see why someone who first gained consciousness in the middle of a battle starting with next to no skills and experience has to automatically be close in level to the war hero and relatively quickly surpass him especially since gaining experience occurs across the board other than to maintain simplicity for the players and to make Revan seem special. Sure, Revan is a prodigy and all that, but believability comes at the expence of maitaining the superiority distinction. With this blending of mechanics and story telling in mind though, my thoughts were Revan did have an effect on her/his companions. Even if things were skewed in the player character's favour for her/him to be the toughest, the devs did decide to make the war hero level 4 rather than a higher level. They could have left him at level 4 and given him some bonuses instead (ie: the war hero bonus to feat # or something such as Revan getting the 40 point boost to Force points due to Force sensitivity) but they didn't. So, to look at things in the broader scope of the game relative to Revan's companions gaining "experience" so quickly, one could argue Revan had an effect on them. i'm not saying this is the case necessarily, it just felt that way to me. Guess i should clarify a bit, in the story telling sense; Carth, after being a soldier for 20 years who was active during the Mandalorian and Jedi civil Wars, and Jolee, after being a Jedi for nuerous decades (don't know his exact age, at least 70 at time of KotOR assuming he was at least 30 at time of Exar Kun Wars since he married late and he fought Nayama when she defected) both progress and gain abilitites and strengths very quickly, a matter of months, once Revan becomes a part of their lives. In that light, story telling wise, i can see how one could believe Revan affected them. But, all of that can be explained through game mechanics and keeping things simple for the game. With regards to Exile, yes, the leeching the Force from her/his companions does work as an explanation. There are issues around it though, ie: if Exile is a wound in the Force and cut him/herself off completely from it, how then could Exile form Force bonds without being able to feel the Force? Or how could Exile leech/siphon the Force at all considering s/he has been cut off in an absolute sense from the Force? Or, considering Exile became a wound in the Force from cutting her/himself off from it, would that then mean Exile is no longer a wound in the Force if s/he can reconnect to it? When Exile speaks of her/him feeling the Force and using the Force, s/he mentions it is as if it is at a distance, and other such things. All i'm saying is there is the possibillity Exile didn't actually re-establish her/his connection to the Force at all. Not saying that is what happened, it is just an interesting theory. The link i put in for post #3 has a thread that touches on this subject if you're interested in it. There is alot to discuss concerning that issue in particular.

IIRC, that only happens with DS characters. i thought the LSers learn the techniques by watching and Kreia explaining in Exile's mind. Could be wrong about that though...

i noticed it too, at least when it is thought out in a logical sense. Revan, when coming back after being almost dead, begins at level 1 with 0 experience. By the time s/he meets up with Jolee, he is lower level than Revan eventhough he fought in the Exar Kun Wars and had had many adventures and caused a great deal of mischief. Being at that relatively low level considering his life story, then gains abilities and strength etc, quicker than he had up until that point previously in his life. Same goes for Carth. He is a decorated war hero, has seen more action than the rest of the Crew on the Endar Spire combined, and he is level 4. He can't dual-wield, has few feats, and nearly laughable skills abilities. Suddenly Revan comes along and he can do incredible things relatively quickly. So yeah, i'd definitely say Revan 'gave them Force'. As far as Exile goes, i'm not sure Exile tapped into her/his companions. i had thought it was Kreia who was giving the Force connection to Exile. Not that it states that in-game or anything, i just felt that makes the most logical sense and can explain alot of plot holes to rational conclusions. This, and things along this line are discussed in this thread called "KOTOR 2 purposely making fun of Lucas's ideas?, The Force, all that junk Kreia addesses." at this link <{POST_SNAPBACK}> but it is older so it would be hard to find. You've touched on one of the things that makes the d20 and experience increase through killing system lacking. With Exile, it becomes uncertain if her/his power increase is due to game mechanics since everyone's exp increases that way, or due to the . i think in KotOR (the first) the leveling up through killing was simply a game mechanic. i don't know why the Council told Exile s/he . To me, that confused the issue, especially since .

I just did it a couple days ago and she stuck around until I had defended her three times. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep. Me too. That is true. i hadn't thought of that. And i guess the fact they "resurrect" twice furthers that point. But at the initial choosing, Exile wouldn't know that though. But wasn't it Kreia who pulled her lightsabre on Atton first? i don't remember... And Bao-Dur stood by to protect Atton against Kreia whom he said he saw is threatening Atton with her lightsabre. But the point you make Exile knew it was about redemption and not to be taken too literally in the actual physical acting it out sense makes sound sense, if that makes sense... (sorry, couldn't help myself there)

[Jediphile,May 21 2006, 10:52 AM] But does the quality lie in the romance or in Sion's complexity? Because the latter you certainly get in the male version of the game as well - you still have to convince Sion that the existence he has lived has not been worthwhile and that Kreia chose the Exile over him, because the Exile was able to give up the force, and that there is strength in that. I agree that this works plotwise, but you don't have to play the female Exile to experience it. The male version is just the same, except the early lines are different, because Sion sees the male Exile as a hated competitor for Kreia's affections and nothing else. But you still have to make Sion examine the value of his own existence and make him see that it is not worthwhile, which erodes his will. The last lines you quote are just the same for the male Exile, so in the end, Sion accepts the value in giving up the force from the male Exile just as much as he did from the female Exile. So we agree Sion is complex, good. Does the quality lie is Sion's complexity or in the romance? Yes. Sion's complexity is great on its own. The romance adds a layer to that complexity and gives female Exile more potential for depth as well. Also, in the bigger picture, basing the quality question on what Sion represents; the pain aspect, then his being able to feel tenderness and affection through his constant pain, represents the others affected by Malachor V have the chance to do so as well. When i consider those who were directly affected by Malachor V in the game, Nihilus, Kreia (who was a former Jedi Master), Exile, Bao-Dur, and Atton, all of them are pretty much incapable of dealing with their emotions and of forging meaningful, deep, and lasting personal relationships of any sort, wherein they do not supress, deny, or otherwise obscure their feelings and/or reality. So i find the romantic aspect of Sion's and Exile's to be a positive addition to the story and the plot. As far as the points Sion is deep regardless of Exile, and he has to die either way go; sure, he is deep regardless, and yes, he has to die either way. But i've dealt with these before so i'll sum up as quickly as i can: the difference in the reason for his dying between male and female Exile is significant to not only Sion personally, but also to Exile personally, and to the larger themes in the story. i find the love involved with Sion for female Exile (just to make it clear, it wouldn't matter to me if he loved male Exile as well/instead. But in the game, he only feels that way about female Exile, just as Atris feels love for only male Exile eventhough it wouldn't matter to me if she loved female Exile as well/instead too) is poignant, touching, (especially in contrast to the Sion's and the story's harshness), and important. Oh, and yes, many of the lines are the same. i hadn't intended to imply they weren't, sorry if it came across that way. i was attempting to point out Sion's complexity and depth as well as the significance of the female Exile-Sion relationship in quoting their conversation. i didn't write out every option either since i was going for the overall jist and the reciprocation of Exile's feelings. i don't have a save game with male Exile and Sion so i couldn't directly compare. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. [Jediphile] I'm not really about to disagree with any of this. I don't particularly hate Mical, I just don't think that he is very interesting. But do I think he has value in the game? Sure, I do. But given that we can only choose either him or Brianna to be in the game (by our choice of gender), the question simply becomes which character I find to be more interesting, and here Brianna wins hands down. She is a far more interesting character than Mical to me, and her "betrayal" of Atris adds depth to the plot as I see it. When I played male, I thought after speaking with Mical (in the jedi enclave), "gee, what a paperpusher...". But then he contacted Carth (or Cede) and gave a secret report, and I thought, "well, maybe there's more to this guy than meets the eye...". After that playing a female Exile, however, was disappointing, because my conclusion was "no, there isn't - he just isn't that interesting..." So that makes an argument in favor of the male Exile in my book. You don't like Brianna sparring in, well, the nude or close to it. Fair enough, you have every right to your opinion, but I do not think that all women feel the same way as you do, so while you might see it as demeaning, I do not concur that Brianna does. So we agree Mical has value in the game, good. i should have added to my above paragraph about Mical why i see him as a better character than Brianna (since they are the interchangable ones). One of my concerns and complaints about the male Exile being made cannon is how the female characters who are interested in him are depicted. To me, when i hear how they react, what they voice, their behaviour in general, they seem weak, too compliant, and lack centre. Their characters seem to bounce around too much in order to make them maleable for male Exile which hurts them as characters. Mical remains pretty much himself even if Exile tells him to take a hike. He knows himself, how he feels, what his values are without them being dependant on what Exile thinks, nor on how she may react or feel. i don't see that same strength in the females. Atton, as you have pointed out, doesn't tell female Exile how he feels about her. His character doesn't change because of his love for her. Same with Sion. He is going to try to stop her from getting made unwhole by Kreia, even if he has to kill her with his own hands, but who he is, how he reacts, what he thinks and feels are consistent and not dependant on how she feels about him. Guess to simplify, the males are constant and have a centre without losing themselves trying to curry favour, and their whole lives aren't lived, motivations dictated by, nor views dependant on Exile. The females basically all live for Exile. Two for Exile in any incarnation (Visas and Atris), the other for male Exile alone (Brianna). i find Visas specifically was well done and i believe in her character as she is. It doesn't bother me she is submissive (my opinion) to Exile. Considering her history, it makes perfect logical and emotional sense. All 3 of the potential love interests being so dependant on Exile's approval though, i find disturbing. As far as the Brianna vs Mical thing goes, meh, i find Brianna annoying. i don't like how she was voice acted, how wishy-washy she was, and all the other stuff i've mentioned before. She felt more like a bratty lost teen with a crush than a serious character. Not that lost teens with crushes can't be serious characters, it is just Brianna in particular didn't feel to me as if i could take her seriously, especially since she was supposed to be in her 20s, from what i coud tell. She did have some good qualities, it is true, but overall, the potential intensity of her plot and function in the story were overriden by the less ingratiating elements of her character. My feelings on it only. And i believe i said i thought it was good she had enough self-confidence to spar in her jiggly little outfit. i felt it was insulting to the players (for those who did not feel titilation was more prominent) because of the implications i mentioned in an earlier post. The point wherein it becomes insulting to Brianna is when she pulls the same stunt for all the sparring matches even when Exile tells her to put some clothes on. She ignores his discomfort with the situation and pushes it. To me, that seems rather a pushy, inconsiderate, and offensive thing to do. It'd be the same if the sexes were reversed. Try it once, if works, good for you. If it doesn't work, to persist seems rather... in poor taste. [Jediphile] It did in Brianna's fight against Atris. She could win, then Atris would zap her to the ground in the next cutscene, and then the Exile arrives in time to save her. Or she could lose, then cut to cutscene with Brianna at Atris' mercy, then the Exile arrives to save her. That battle could be won or lost and still have the same outcome. i thought in the Brianna-Atris fight Brianna has to win while she is being player controlled or else she gets killed and it goes to the "game over" screne. Only after Atris has been defeated by Brianna does the Atris cut-scene cue. [Jediphile] She's not bad-looking, but I wouldn't go further in that. Any other attraction would, as I see it, come more from the challenge of melting the ice-queen than anything else... (sort of like Han Solo does with Leia in ESB) i think Atris was intended to be "classically" gorgeous in the "typical" North American/Euro-centric sense. White, light coloured hair, blue eyes that stand out, pouty lips, high cheek bones, busty, tall, etc... Ultimately, seeing her as attractive or not would come down to player preference, but in the accepted ideal portrayed within the popular culture the devs use as a reference base, she is supposed to be very attractive. To be clear though, i am not in anyway saying those are necessarily good ideals to have. To each her/his own... [Jediphile] Sion clearly states having feeling for the female Exile, yes. I don't think that it makes much sense (which is why I say that I think it hurts the plot and his character), but he does say it. But I don't see the Exile returning those feelings with the statement you make here. "You've been a presence in my mind" can mean a lot of things. It can just as well be the Exile trying to avoid the confrontation because she is afraid of Sion as anything else, and so she placates him by accepting his comments of affection. I do not see that this statement *must* be a confirmation that the Exile has feelings for Sion as well in any way - it can just as well mean that she is afraid of him. [For better chi flow:]And I see the similar toward Sion in the female Exile's "you've been a presence in my mind"-comment. But though the Exile may be uncomfortable about it, I do think that the line to Atris is more sincere than the female Exile's line to Sion is. The reason behind that is probably that the male Exile no longer has true feelings for Atris, if indeed he ever did, but that when he says this, he has already chosen to spare Atris' life. You do not have that choice with Sion, however, and therefore you can lie or be sincere with him regardless, since he must die in any event. For that reason I do not see the two as completely comparable. [more snipping for better chi]Even if I accept that the principle you describe is true in general that does not mean that I must also accept that it is relevant to Sion and Exile. And I don't. Whatever Sion feels for the Exile, I see no evidence that Exile returns those feelings, and therefore your principle does not apply IMHO. She gets the choice of [persuation] (truth) "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." or [persuation] (lie) "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." among others. So i was basing my argument upon her returning his feelings on her choosing the truth option. That particular argument of mine becomes invalidated if she chooses the lie option. My other related argument though, is the only person Exile in any incarnation can have such a spoken and not dismissive and committal response to is Sion. [Jediphile] That doesn't make sense to me, because at the point where you say that line to Atris, you've already decided to spare her life. Then it would be truly cruel to lie right to her face, and letting Atris live is not the DS choice. It's true that the male Exile doesn't exactly reciprocate Atris' feelings here, but then how can he? If he doesn't feel that way about her, then it would be very wrong to do, and even if he did feel the same way, those feelings are the very thing that caused Atris' fall in the first place. Atris needs to distance herself from them before she can heal and become whole again, and the feelings she has would hinder that or even make it impossible. What i was getting at is how Exile speaks with Atris is very Exile focused. It is "I" focused rather than "you" focused. I again cannot concur she fell in the first place because of her loving male Exile. She falls no matter what. That is to me much more than a simple "Hell hath no furry as a woman scorned" meaning. There is something in how Atris identified with Exile (whichever Exile) that made her hold onto her rage and self-doubt for 10 years. To answer the how can he reciprocate Atris' love feelings; the answer, i think, would fall into a similar category as Bastila loving male Revan: love leading to redemption. Not that i think it would be good, it is just one of the accepted romantic ideals; that love can save people and all that. IIRC, that is what helped Mara Jade as well. So there is plenty of basis for it to have been possible. If that were an option; however; i think it would be worse for the situation than not having it an option at all. Rather than letting Atris figure things out in a safe way, throwing a romance in with the person who is the vessel of her problems, for her to attempt to slog through the romance as well... yikes! [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) [Jediphile] First of all, the point of whether a personal tie has relevance was made in the context of Mical having one vs. Brianna not having one - I did not not mention it in relation to the Sion/Atton fight (and I don't see how it applies there anyway...) *hesitation* Um, you did, and here it is: "Indeed, I find Brianna's confrontation far more compelling, because it both resolves her alleged betrayal to her sisters and Atris as well as settling the feelings both she and Atris have for the male Exile, which is significant because of Atris' direct tie to the Exile's past. That duality is not there in Atton's fight with Sion, since Sion is a stranger to the Exile." Only rather than compare Brianna to Mical, it is comparing Brianna to Atton through Sion's and Atris' personal (or lack thereof) histories with Exile. In an earlier post i stated reasons why the Atton-Sion fight held its own merrit without the need for them to have had a personal history with Exile because of what they each represent and bring to the story. [Jediphile] Second, no, I'm not going to step into this trap either. "a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter." I do not accept your authority to make this a black-and-white issue, and it is a trap, since the true answer IMHO is the unspoken option c. What I said before was that it hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a personal tie to the Exile past. Now, that clearly rules out option b. However, I did *not* say, "none of the character may have a personal tie to the exile's past", just that it would hurt the plot if *all* did. The logical conclusion is therefore that while *all* are not relevant, then *some* might. Therefore the correct answer is option c: "having a personal history with the Exile *can* matter, but doesn't have to". You get still get no brownie points, but I'm going to penalize you with demerit points for continual attempts to obscure the discussion. You don't need to see my identification - move along! i need to appologize for my tone with that one, it really did sound dictatorial. So i am sorry for that. i would really like to know how having a common basis of identifying a concept's worth is obscuring the discussion. If "option C" is the common understanding, than either of us could arbitrarily assign value to the personal history link, as has been done with: "No, Mical's personal tie to Exile and his supposing to be her padwan is insignificant, but that Sion doesn't have a personal history with Exile is significant". That makes little sense. That is why i state it should either be it does or doesn't. But, just because it is significant, doesn't mean it overrides other ties; as i have stated with Sion, i don't feel he and Exile need to have had a personal history tie-in in order for his loving her to be relevant and significant. As i read over what you have writen, i am trying to understand what the problem is, and where you see i am trying to trap you. i am quite preoccupied with trying to make cohesive arguments and to see the bigger picture of what we are debating. Just in re-reading what i have writen over the last numerous posts, i have found a few things i have changed my mind about and come to view differently, things i have come to see i misinterpreted, and things i have come to reach a deeper understanding about through our discussing. i don't want to trap you, i want to reach concensus. i want you to see the merrit in my arguments, and i want anyone who reads our thread to see why *off-hand* dismissing female Exile as inferrior to male Exile is an uninformed decission. i also want the terms of this discussion to be even so basic comparisson points are treated equally. [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... [Jediphile] Now, I know you read what you quote me for above, so why do you ignore the opening statement: "Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone." ? As i said, it doesn't matter if Atris feels sexual attraction for Exile, nor anger, nor any mix of any emotions. What matters is she feels intence emotions. The Jedi do not guard solely against feeling intence lust or love, they guard against intence everything, be it anger, jealousy, admiration, identifying with another too strongly... everything. Emotion X, regardless of what it may be, felt too strongly, leads to the DS in one way or another. Whether it is love to jealousy to anger = DS, or whatever other emotional progression follows from whatever emotions are felt. To the Jedi, anything felt too strong is bad. [Jediphile] I'm having trouble with this, since it seems to me that that you're willfully ignoring which emotions are at work here. You accuse Atris of openly revealing her feelings *for* (meaning either love or admiration) the Exile here, yet when I point out that those precise emotions are not unveiled in this scene, you ignore my point and proceed to claim plothole, because Atris demonstrates *any* feelings at all. YES, SHE DOES, BUT WHICH FEELINGS? It is not irrelevant in this case, because jedi are allowed to have feelings, it's just a question of which ones. Feelings present in Atris in council scene: Disapproval, disappointment, anger, disgust. Feelings *not* overtly present in Atris in council scene: Love or admiration. Attempt to maintain flawed plothole accusation rejected. Yes, there are droids here, but *THESE* are not the droids you're looking for. Move along! Yay, more sifting through previous posts.... Ok, i've gone back and re-read the Atris' feelings and the Jedi Council stuff back to post 70. The evolution of this topic began with the comparisson between Mical's and Atris's feelings. The conflict was between whose feelings would be worse or more plot breaking, if at all. i argued Atris's are worse than Mical's by virtue of her being a Jedi Master and that the Council would have acted on the intensity of her feelings. You argued a padawan feeling that way about his Master would be far worse and they would not have let it come to pass. From that, we got into the discussion of Atris revealing she feels strongly for Exile would/would not have been dealt with by the Council. With that in mind, Atris feeling love for male Exile matters in the Mical vs Atris debate. Her feelings of love are not what is important in the Council doing something debate since it is the fact she feels so intencely about anything (which happens to be Exile) that is the problem. Zez-Kai Ell's "mind your feelings" was about her anger and all that, not necessarily about her love since we don't know if the Council knew about Atris's feelings for Exile or not, nor if she was projecting love during the Council meeting or not, although judging solely by what is in-game, they did not, and from what we are shown, since it is the same cut-scene for both sexes of Exile, they would be concerned over what she was eminating during the meeting. And that is my point. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* [Jediphile] It would be a discrepancy only if Atton was a LS jedi. He was not. He was just an assassin/torturer working for the Sith, who found out that he was force sensitive. He explains how he had heard the stories of those who were found to be force sensitive among the Sith ranks and who were then forcibly removed from service for how knows what reasons (to be turned into dark jedi). It was only when Atton realised that he was himself force sensitive that he had to flee in order to avoid that fate. He was trained by Revan to be an elite Sith assassin who does not kill Jedi but rather captures them for conversion. How an abductor is an assassin, i'm not sure. He probably was order to kill some Jedi directly as opposed to capture for whatever reasons Revan chose to do so, so i guess in that light, assassin applies as well. Atton speaks of how he tortured Jedi, how he broke them. i thought he was doing the job of those he would have been sent to for conversion. He also mentions how he killed those he was breaking. That seems to defeat the purpose of breaking them. An example of which is that last female Jedi he spoke of who connected her mind to his, although he had personal reasons for killing her so he might have been able to cover that up somehow. He also states it is the Jedi (as in those who aren't fallen Jedi) who are taken to conversion 'therapy'. Then he says those who are found to be Force sensitive get taken, and he heard stories of how unpleasant that was for those who were found. Why they would do unpleasant things to those who were already fighting for Revan's cause of their own free will and who were loyal to Revan is beyond me. Perhaps it had to do with going that extra mile with complete domination over the fallen Jedi's mind since they pose a larger threat than those without Force use abilities. In the conflicting information on Revan's Sith and what went on, i find it difficult to fully understand. Anyway, pertaining to Atton leaving the Sith, he says the Jedi told him it was only a matter of time before it was found out he is Force sensitive, which means he would be taken to the dark Jedi training. That was one motivation for him to leave, but in my estimation, not the strongest. He speaks of how after she had connected her mind to his and let him feel everything, she had awoken feelings in him he had, up until that point,not allowed himself to feel. His true feelings. He admits he had never been on the receiving end of what he did to others, and after he felt what she could feel, he could no longer hold his own emotions back. He became completely unable to continue on with what he had been doing because of the compassion and guilt he felt, but also because he couldn't fake false emtions to the extent he previously had. Thus, he didn't leave only out fear of what would happen to him if his Force sensitivity was found out, he mainly (my opinion) left because he just couldn't make himself do it anymore. It isn't as if he stepped-down from being an elite assassin and became a regular grunt instead (assuming that was an option among the Sith way of doing things), he left the Sith, Revan, and the conviction of his belief they were in the right, completely and irrevokably. [Jediphile] Is he right? Ask a philospher - that's one for the ages, and one that we struggle with still in the real world. Like Malachor, that one echoes still... Well...? [Jediphile] I'm not certain about that. Are we ever told this? I do not recall a comment about Revan, Malak, or even the Exile ordering such a thing created and then commanded the engineers to figure out how, so I would assume this was something Bao-Dur thought up on his own volition. But I'm not sure... Even if Bao-Dur came up with the idea on his own, i assume they ordered him to build it since it would take time and resources which are both precious commodities during a war. It doesn't seem to be a kinda thing that could be thrown together in a short period of time. But you're right, we don't know if he thought of it himself, we only know he built it. [Jediphile] You're wrong there. I just checked the game to be certain and had no problem sacrificing Visas playing the female Exile. It's true that the option does not always present itself, but that has to do with a bug and not your choice of gender. Put standard clothes on Visas and equip her only with a vibroblade or lightsaber, and you'll get the option to sacrifice her every time, regardless of the Exile's gender. Ok, i was wrong about that then. i tried numerous times with re-loads and in different games, but i couldn't get it. She was in her original clothes and was dual-wielding lightsabres. Come to think of it, maybe dual-wielding is the problem... [Jediphile] Well, a lot of jedi did die in the Great Sith War, but I don't get the sensation that their ranks were depleted or close to it judging from how it all ends in the "Sith War" comic books, which is, after all, the original source of that information. The jedi assemble a fleet full of jedi vessels and fly to Yavin IV to confront Exar Kun. It even says, "thousands upon thousands of force wielders converge upon the small jungle moon" (yes, it just says "force wielders", but it does mean jedi, I think). At this point Exar Kun realises that Ulic has betrayed his location to the jedi. He then begins a ritual, which requires the sacrifice of all the Massassi warriors he has left. "Even as the jedi approach, Exar KUn prepares himself to unleash his powerful spirit... To shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos!" However, "The wall of light generation by many jedi becomes a crushing blow for the light side of the force... A flood that sweeps down to extinghuish the corrupted power of the Sith... and to stop Exar Kun." After that the jungles around the temple burst into flame, Exar Kun's forces are destroyed, and Exar Kun himself is trapped in his spiritform. No jedi are killed. So while many have been killed during the war, none of those "thousands upon thousands" are killed at the end of it. Haven't read the comics so i have no idea about that. i didn't even know there were thousands and thousands of Jedi at all... Can't argue with source material though... Tag... you're it...

Yeah, i can see that perspective applying. The issue i have with that though is to allow for the possibility for Kreia to be redeemed, the others have to be killed. Since apathy is death thus Exile must chose between the two (pertaining to Kreia's potential redemption vs companions' lives), that then is placing the chance for Kreia's redemption ahead of the lives of Exile's companions. Which doesn't seem particularily LS to me. Especially when considered in the bigger picture. Forgot to add that since Exile's companions began to confront Kreia to defend Exile, that should be taken into account as well. Also, in the bigger picture i mentioned, does the one act of the companions doing something wrong (if it is wrong) then make killing them right? i mean that is one act. Do all their other acts and future acts then become over shadowed by the one confrontation in the tomb?

Yay! Love is good. Glad to hear it is present. i find it kinda sad (sad as in unhappy, not as in pathetic) that you see it as sad though. i think having a forum for such debate and exploration is good. It's not like we're saying "males suck" "no they don't" "yes they do" "no they don't" etc. Some of the concepts we're exploring are interesting and profound, that also mirror 'real life'. Certainly not the direct pursuit of bringing equality and social responsibility to the world, but i see value in the debate. It also allows me to see other people's perspectives in a way i usually wouldn't be able to. All and all, a good thing... *growing uncertainty out of fear this too will be delved into and debated - nervous laughter - ha ha.. hun...* i think. It wouldn't matter in a vacuum where there is no point of contention over the representation of strong female leads in the SW universe. But this isn't a vacuum, and there is alot of contention over the issue, therefore, it matters. But it also matters in more personal ways since the question of how people see things specifically in that light can be quite disturbing. Bringing these issues to light and duscussing them, is basically how people come to broaden their horizons and can see other viewpoints. Then there is room for them to come to terms. That is the way of politics, and that is one method to use to initiate change in how things are done. But i have no delusions that our discussing this is going to have significant impact. But maybe, if someone reads the debate and sees a different perspective and they then question how they saw things up 'til then, then some use has come out of it, i'd like to think anyway... And that is why it is important to have discussions like this since just accepting yet another cannon male uncontested lead (uncontested lead as in a lead who will not take the back seat to another character) can be detrimental to the SW universe. It also, since Revan was made cannonical male ( <_< ), then reduces possible female lead representation to just Exile. So if Exile is made cannonical male, the game players' choices and experiences playing as female are reduced to just being some peripheral and unimportant choices in the games where the female versions had no real significance at all and will be completely disgarded in cannon SW, which by its nature, carries all the weight. So any representation of female Revan & Exile will have to be unofficial (female Revan is already there), will be reduced to fan-fic and thus have no bearing on the George Lucas official SW universe, and will get very limited readership. And i find that to be wrong. i know official SW workers aren't going to read this, and it will probably not even come to their attention there are people who care about it, but if that were used as a reason to dismiss its significance, than many things would be kept in silence and never discussed. i will respond to Jediphile's post later, gotta go.

i have a question regarding the whole Korriban tomb encounter with defending or attacking Kreia. By the time the tomb encounter takes place, the player has a fairly good idea Kreia is not a good person. While i do understand why Atton, Bao-Dur, T3-M4, can't remember who else, attacking a single foe would be considered unfair, i don't understand how siding with Kreia, after her admitting she is a Sith, and a condition of siding with her is having to kill the others, is particularily LS. Any thoughts or explanations?

i concur. While learning things about Revan's origins would be interesting, i don't see it as necessary for plot integrity. i think it is one of those things that would be better left unknown, and with the brain damage done to Revan, it fits nicely with those parts of Revan remaining mysterious. However, how Revan found out about the true Sith, what that thing is that Revan started and is now trying to stop, that stuff, does need to be explained.

[Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing to suppress his own feelings about Exile's reponsibility (and in this case, i do mean suppress. He does not allow himself to feel that at all). Two: it serves as a counter balance to how he feels about both the attrocity and himself. He sees, knows, feels the horror of Malachor V. He isn't at all deluded about that. The Jedi Civil War was a direct effect of the MSG activation. Those 2 put together are a helluva psychological and karmic burden to deal with. In allowing Exile to be free of the responsibility of those attrocities, it allows a wedge of that for himself as well. Anyway, that is how i see it at the moment. This does go against my theory he sees Exile as sacrosanct though... Hmm... They could work in conjunction though... [Hekate]It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. [Jediphile] It's because he cannot hold the exile responsible without reducing his own sense of guilt and responsibility. Bao-Dur says that the Exile had no choice - s/he had to give the order, since it was war, and the Mandalorians had to be defeated, etc. The Exile was a general. Generals lead troops in battles, and so it was the Exile's job to kill the enemy by whatever means. He cannot blame the exile for doing his/her job. But he can blame himself for giving the Exile the MSG - he can blame himself for luring the Exile into giving them order by offering him/her a terrible weapon so powerful that no warlord could resist using it to kill millions. If only Bao-Dur had not created the bloody thing, all those people would not have died, the "general" would not have been exiled, the jedi would not have fallen to the dark side, and so and so forth. Yes, it's a bit of a self-delusion, of course, but given the choice between accepting that and accepting that Bao-Dur had no influence or significance on what was to happen, it becomes easier to accept the responsibility, because that at least means that you had some control over the outcome. The opposite means that you were powerless, that it could likely happen again because you probably still are, and that there is nothing you can do about it. In that situation most would rather prefer to believe that they do have a choice, even if heavy guilt comes with it. i don't know. It was his job to make the MSG once the brass ordered it be made. It was his job to activate it when the order was given for him to do so. So if his General had not given the order to use it and decided to use a different strategy instead, than none of it would have happened anyway either. i think he thinks of all these possibilities and different potential outcomes. i still cannot connect him feeling he was powerless if he assigned the proper responsibility to Exile. i wonder if he would assign it to a different General were it someone other than Exile who gave the order... [Jediphile] In this context it means, "I'm willing to give my life so that you can live, because you have the power to defeat the evil that we that must be overcome, while I do not, and therefore your survival is more essential than mine." At least it does to me. i would agree with that if weren't said in the context of her admitting she has nothing to offer and that she would rather die by Exile's hand than by Nihilus'. Her placing her life in Exile's hands at that point is not about Exile defeating Nihilus. It is about her saying she sees little value in her own life and she is handing it over to Exile competely. That is a submissive gesture and one that defines their relationship as unequal. [Jediphile] And there is no middle ground between submission and equality? Besides, I don't agree that this is submission for the reasons stated above. Of course there is middle ground between equality and total submission. But i am not speaking of total submission. i am speaking of the nature of their relationship being unequal. i am not judging their inate worth as individuals, i am only saying Exile is in control between the 2 of them. [Jediphile] That does not seem so likely to me... What would prevent Nihilus from letting the Exile grow stronger while captured until Nihilus was ready to "eat" the Exile? Besides, Visas senses in the first cutscene that the Exile is a threat, so if she is still loyal to Nihilus, it does not make much sense to allow the Exile to grow stronger, since that would just increase the odds that he might kill Nihilus. The reason i believe Visas, initially, wants Exile to be strong when confronting Nihilus and her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus is because: 1) she was broken under Nihilus' will and he gave her that mandate so she would by logical extension follow it without hesitation 2) she herself had, at best, divergent feelings on the worth of life and living things so she didn't, at that point, have an ingrained desire to save the universe from Nihilus. She aquired that throughout the game and through her experiences with Exile & co. 3) she felt, at that point, Nihilus could not be bested, so she would have little reason to think Exile could put an end to Nihilus. [Jediphile] Visas knows nothing about the Exile's force wound until Exile tells her after the meeting with the masters. She just knows that the exile is a threat to Nihilus. And I don't see her hating all life. I just see her not daring to see the worth in it until after Nihilus is destroyed. i thought Visas, through her inate connection to the Force, knew Exile was Force-wise nothing. i thought that is what she felt on the Ravager; that nothingness. Hence it was difficult for her to hear for a long while. You know, as it states in your sig, "... but in the howling of a storm, it is difficult to hear the whisper of the blade." kinda deal. Altough it should probably be "silence of the blade" to fit better, but i think you know what i'm getting at. The reasons i stated i thought she hates all life is because she said so when speaking of Katarr, and her wanting to kill innocents, and such. But i think she was seeing the potential value in life before confronting Nihilus when she tells Exile she wants to know if it is possible Nihilus, and what he showed her about the ugliness of life, was wrong. [Jediphile] That's Kreia's particular hobby-horse, not Visas' Yes, yes it is... i thought it applied to Visas too, but that is clearly not the case if she wasn't aware of Exile's destructive potential. [Jediphile] You cannot conclude something about the Exile in general based on a DS act that the exile may or may not choose. And even if the LS exile did this, we cannot speculate that Visas was killed just because the exile didn't like her - Nihilus may have been tough to fight and left the exile with the impression that he could never be defeated unless they first weakened him by sacrificing Visas. That what "you must be sacrificed if I'm to live" means to me anyway - that Visas must die to weaken Nihilus so that exile can then live and kill him. Sure you can defeat Nihilus without killing Visas, but we can't be sure whether the exile was aware of that. i said "emphasizes", not "proves". i also said his walking away was an option, not that he has to. And we are pretty certain he can be defeated without having to sacrifice Visas since Nihilus was an easy fight and getting Visas to sacrifice herself is only one dialogue option and not a forced one, so Exile chooses to do so. Visas chooses to submit. If she indeed did have the defiance and independace argued earlier, she should have been able to refuse to kill herself. But because her role in their relationship is that of being submissive (lower rank, subserviant, etc), she obeys Exile's orders. Hence she is submitting to Exile's will against her own self-preservation instinct and against her belief it is unnecessary to do so to win. [Jediphile] To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? Because from what i've read, i don't think she can self-sacrifice for female Exile. It wasn't an option when i played female Exile. She can ask Visas if she could use the bond she and Nihilus share to weaken him, but the option for her to kill herself isn't given. i may have chosen the wrong dialogue options though. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. [Jediphile] Sure he says it - how else can he justify himself and his own actions? But he doesn't believe it. He also says, "How can you even live with yourself?" That is far more significant, because that's what he is looking for himself - to be able to live with himself. He cannot really do that at the moment - he is still running from himself and has been since Malachor. Being able to live with himself is the skill he wants to learn from the exile. He doesn't realise that the exile is probably even more in denial in some ways than he is himself. He justifies his own actions by the fact the Jedi who did not participate in the Mandalorian Wars were guilty of mass murder, of breaking their oaths to protect those they had sworn to protect, and of being unfeeling cowards who use the guise of deliberation and patience to mask their fear and impotance. Prior to your pointing it out, i did not see "How can you even live with yourself?" could be meant as a technical question, especially because he says it with disgust in his voice, but i see it can. i am actually excited at this discovery! Thanks. *smile* But i did say he is pulled in lots of different directions (that being one of them) by many varrying and often opposing factors, so it fits in well. But, especially with the death scene quote i posted above, Atton isn't one-dimentionally ruthless and conscienceless like that. He showed there is more to him in-non-cut-content-game too ie: he can empathize with Kreia's pain... [Jediphile] I don't see where you get that from, and in any event, it was close to four decades before the time frame we're talking about. Yes, it was 40 years and not 30. Probably closer to 45 by then actually. i am not certain of what you are specifically refering to with your question of where i get that from. If you mean the population pyramid annalogy, i learned that in school, and i mentioned it so, how i saw how it was possible for there to be a lack of teaching age Jedi, could be understood. But if you mean my idea the Exar Kun Wars killed alot of Jedi; i am quite certain Jolee said so... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. [Jediphile] First of all, there is no complete hole in the pyramid, since it was not an entire generation of jedi that left. Many stayed. Bastila, for example. Clearly Juhani did too. And there seem to be more jedi of their age in the enclave in K1. Revan split the order. He did not cut it in two.But yes, some of the pyramid is missing, but what I don't understand is why the remains of the pyrmid cannot connect and fill out the blanks. The old masters who used to teach padawans have no padawans now, so they must teach younglings instead. The pick up the slack and the numbers add up. Problem solved. You're right there isn't a complete hole in the pyramid. i meant in the echelon where the young, teaching age Jedi are placed. i already did say the upper tier of the pyramid would be teaching younglings. i just said i thought the number of those who left vs the number of those who stayed and were able to teach was probably not equal and they would be unable to cover all the gaps. [Jediphile] Is it just me or is that precisely what Revan's army initially consisted of? Always sounded like that to me. i thought it was actual Jedi, not so much padawans who weren't ready to face their trials. [J]Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... [M]Why? Because it is trolling. And you are swallowing the bait whole. [M]Now go outside and run naked in the rain, because anything is more owrthwhile than the diatribe you write. I am serious. You are going above and beyond the definition of fanboy. [J]Well, that sure puts me in right place and proves how much of a fanboy I am - I guess I'll run off to the rain now i'm not feeling the love here people.... What happened to the love?... * a plea* Sorry these are so long. I'm replying to 2 people though so go easy on me for double posting... *end plea*

In the public transit chat forums, I've seen threads with hundreds of pages dedicated to speaking of bus sightings. Yes, bus sightings. While i do understand your point, guess i'll explain my view. To me, discussing this stuff is like getting into the socially relevant issues you were refering to, except it is in a forum that puts enough emotional distance between reality and imagination so it is easier to talk about. This gives me a hard enough time as it is. I can't handle debating intence issues i feel strongly about with people who adamantly disagree with me. We can't even come to concensus here on the point if Visas is subserviant to Exile or whether Atton is complex. i certainly don't want to get into debates about religion, genetics, and such with people who cannot understand my views nor with those i find to be, sounds bad saying it but it is how i see it, wrong. And given that people see things so varried and people generally stick to their views and beliefs without having much room for seeing others' views, i don't think mountains could be moved with the amount of effort put into our discussions. Would be nice though. And it would make it worth it to get into it if it actually presented the chance things could change for the better. The other thing is, i'd reckon about 30%-40% of what is posted is repeating others' quotes so the conversation can be properly followed which reduces the actual fresh material post length. But i'm curious, why does our discussing these things in this detail bother you? [Dhampyre] Hekate sorry for the harshness of my previous post, had a bad day, forgiveness. :'( Thank you. i appreciate it greatly. Forgive me too? [Dhampyre] Yes but neither the male exile nor the female exile display any particular affection for Atris/Sion, it is one sided in both cases. All i am saying is thet with Atris we have a deeper understanding of why and how. With Sion its "You made me the way i am.... You took my master from me, i hate you, i love you". Bam Wham Thank you mam. Doesn't sound like a great story. [moved from lower for cohesiveness:]That is exactly my point. They are both nuts and love the exile who doesn't love them. Repeating myself for the tenth time, Atris's version is done with a better story, Sion's isn't. The 2 places we disagree on are: 1) the notion of Atris' feelings provide a deeper understanding of how and why she feels as she does, and 2) Sion's feelings are as left hanging in the ether as is indicated. i can accept Atris displacing her feelings about morality and self-worth onto another person since she is conflicted, and that person just happens to be Exile. i can also understand Atris loves Exile just because. But i don't have a clue why Atris feels that way about Exile (hero worship) nor what she saw in Exile for her to have loved him. But i don't use that as a basis to discredit her worth. They are both fine because the game suggests she loves Exile, and stated directly she saw Exile as her hero. Now for Sion. i just replayed the female Exile-Sion confrontation on Malachor V. And there is quite alot more to it than i remembered. Getting it down was a pain (unfortunately i'm stuck with an Xbox version), but i got some important quotes to make my argument. In the bigger picture, he tells her he cares about her and he doesn't want her to suffer as he has at the hands of Kreia. But it isn't just physically, he means it from psychological, emotional, and spiritual (as in karma, soul, etc) perspectives. The reason i say this is because he tells her to go back to Malachor V's surface and die there whole rather than for her to be warped by Kreia. He later mentions something similar again about her remaining herself is more important than her physical life. Now i'll walk through their conversation and fill the the non-quoted gaps to give direction: Sion enters Sion: "You should not have come to Malachor. She will break you, your mind, your body... you will be lost. Exile: "Why are you telling me this?" Sion "You and her are alike... yet different in all ways that matter. And I hate you as I hate her. I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." "I hate you because you are beautiful to me and in that weakness lies death." - here he is saying he hates the effect she has on him, that he finds her beautiful (i understand it to be meant in the depth and soul type of ways as opposed to the physical beauty way), and the result of her being able to affect him leaves him vulnerable to dying because of it since his will to chanel the DS and to fulfill his mandate of doing the pain thing is what holds him together. Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." Sion: "Then turn from this place. Do not go to her. Preserve yourself." "I cannot, if you pass you shall not return as you are now." Sion: "If you go before her, you will be broken. If killing you will spare you what lies ahead, then kill you I must." After Exile and Sion fight and Exile wins Exile: "I am stronger than you expected - and I am stronger than Kreia expects. Let me confront her and we shall see" Sion: "There is truth in your words but there is nothing left for me except my master." Exile mentions Kreia told her he his held together by the strength of his will Sion: "I am held together by the DS ... I fight because it is the power that the Force fills me with. To survive, to inflict pain on others ..." "I will not fall, I cannot die" - so his raison d'etre, why he is alive at all, is for him to be pain. Not only in the form of his physical pain, but also to bring that pain to others. As Kreia is betrayal. As Nihilus is hunger. That is why he commits evil acts; he basically is scripted to since it is the purpose he fulfills. He sees the possibility for more in female Exile, hence she poses a threat to his existence, and that is another reason why he wants to kill her. As Jediphile said, he is twisted and perverse. i expand on that by adding he is torn and conflicted over his very existence and if he even wants to go on, but he also isn't suicidal and has a will to live. But to live means to be a slave to pain and to wanting to kill the only one he can see beauty in. The DS gives him his purpose of surviving and not of just inflicting pain on others. That he has come to see an other as something more than someone to inflict pain on is what compels him and disturbs him. Exile tells him to let go of the Force and in doing so he will free himself Sion: "It is not possible to walk away from such things unscarred. To keep living when the universe dies around you" "The Force is who I am - the DS fills me. It is what I am" Exile: "It is possible to live without the Force. And to die without it." - Sion has a similar view and understanding as Visas. Not the same obviously, but i mean Sion has experienced large scale death and had Malachor V's wound effect him, and as Revan had planned, those who did not turn from the Force as Exile did, got twisted and damaged by it wherein they were inundated and indoctrinated by the alteration of their natures to DS Force users. And without him chanelling the DS Force, he will cease to be. He can see how twisted it is, he knows he is bound by it, and he hates it. And he hates how it makes him feel she had been able to let go of it. Exile: "What kind of life have you lived with the Force flowing through you? Was it worth it?" Sion: "It... it was not. No matter how many I have killed... there was no end to the pain... The blades the Force tore through my flesh. Kreia, she will try to break you, to teach you how far someone can fall. Her weakness is you. As you were mine. I am glad to leave this place... at last." So, it does explain alot about Sion, why he does what he does, why he wants to kill female Exile even with him falling for her. It does not specifically state why he sees her as beautiful nor why she in particular has that effect on him, but i think it is safe to assume part of it is they can feel eachothers' presences within eachother, and she was able to deny the Force and was thus free of the strangle hold the Malachor V wound has on him. And those are good reasons. [Dhampyre] I didn't say they were bad but compared to the male exile romantic stories, its not as interesting. Atton's is good but again its based on infatuation. Atton is attracted to both the male and female exile due to the fact that he/she is able to go on living without letting the burden of so many deaths weigh him down. Don't forget the exile has taken many many more lives than Atton, and Atton took a fair share of Jedi Lives as well.The female exile story only modifies Atton's infatuation into lust and eventually love. To defend Atton, i'll write down his death scene: "You're alive... did I save you yet? You're eyes. That bad, huh? Always was ugly now the outside matches. Was waiting for this but's not fair. I let you down... was supposed to save you. Was tired of living anyway... too many deaths... Never told you, lied to you. I don't want you to see me like this. I don't want to die infront of you... can't bear it.... Loved you from the moment I first saw you. Thought you were a dream. Meant every word. Tried to play it off as a joke... wasn't funny. Hurts when I laugh... hurts. You saved me. Joke's on me. Heh heh. Hurts when I laugh... hurts" So, assuming Atton wasn't lying as he was dying and such, he loved her and was not just infatuated by her, nor did he only lust after her. He wanted to save her, and he states she saved him which would be LS and assuming he means she saved his soul. When he says he meant every word, i would assume he is refering to when he and Exile spoke, both the good things and the bad things. This could, however, be refering to cut content. It seems to me, from this dialogue and from what he says in-game, he didn't envy Exile's ability to kill without repercusion nor remorse. It seems more akin to wanted to become a better person. And that is why i said he left the Sith because of what the Jedi who opened her mind to him had shown him and evoked in him rather than he ran to escape Revan doing horrible things to him. Atton also says, when he speaks of his past with Exile, it took time for him to not be able to do the Sith assassin thing anymore and he decided to leave because of it. [Dhampyre] Mical on the other hand is dull as a character and his love story is pretty dull too. "I didn't have anyone to train me so i'll just sit here in this monster infested enclave and hint that i have ties to the republic initially and then all else about that is forgotten". Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. As far as him sitting in the monster infested enclave goes, meh, that was a kinda weird thing for him to do with dead bodies just lying there and all in the same room. But that is where the holocrons were stored so i guess he didn't have much choice in the matter. The devs dropping his working for the Republic theme was odd, but i think it can be safely assumed he carried on with his duty though it seems the game gives no indication thereof. i thought i heard him talk about it or refer to it once, but i really don't remember. i don't see that as a big sticking point anyway. [Dhampyre] Atton was player controlled in the cantina on Narr-Shadda as well while fighting the twin-suns. When the exile goes to Jekk Jekk Tar. So yes, it is completely possible. But if Atton died there, it was "game over". Same with Mira when Hanhaar fights her. i thought it is in the engine that if all the controllable party members die, even if there is only one to control at the time, it ends the game. So if that is true, then Atton can't die fighting Sion if it is player controlled since the game would end. Unless it goes to a cut-scene before his hit points reach 0, sorta like they do with Sion and Kreia. But i don't think so 'cause that doesn't happen with player controlled characters. [Hekate] What i am saying is regardless of the outcome and of whom Exile loves, if any, Atton and Sion facing off is significant because of how they feel about Exile, what their characters represent to the story, and for their own vlaues as NPCs. [Dhampyre] Err?!?!? What? i am confused at what is confusing, but that just makes life more interesting. To rephrase (although technically that should be 'resentence' i guess...); it doesn't matter whom Exile loves or if he loves either in the Brianna Atris fight since their fight, how they are expressing themselves, what the fight represents to them and the overall storyarc, etc, is important in and of itself. [Hekate] i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole [Dhampyre] I beg to differ. That only tells us that the jedi masters knew of Atris's feelings, it doesn't mean exile knew of her feelings. No plot holes here. Move along. Context though. The issue at hand had nothing to do with Exile. We were debating why the Masters not doing anything about Atris' feelings made for a problem in believability and such. [Hekate] i do not know what you mean by his self-denial. He feels guilty but i don't think he has any delusions on the matter nor about himself. Or did you mean self-denial in the sense of he denies himself things he needs as in self-deprivation? And i am not so sure it is impunity either. He is the only one who actively voices to Exile he does not like Kreia and he tells Exile she can't be trusted. [Dhampyre] Atton is not in self-denial but he definately does feel guilty for what he has done. He doesn't trust anyone and has a good sense of who can be reliable and who can't. However that stands with both male exile and female exile. I don't see how this is being used to debate which exile is better? Actually, my above statement goes back to my defending my position that Atton is a complex character and that his value as a romance option cannot be dismissed so that is how it relates to the debate. [Dhampyre] At the end of the day IT WAS cut out. Lets not play with Ifs and Buts. Bao-Dur is NOT a romantic interest in the game period (male or female exile) it may have been originally concieved for him to be but it was cut out because of the already extremely long list of romantic releationships attributed with the exile. It was swapped for the much better and intellectually sound relationship of war veterans. Even female exile does NOT have any romantic links with Bao-Dur, if that is forced into the relationship it ruins it. For that reason and to avoid any confusion Male Exile makes a better choice. i know it was removed. i initially added the Bao-Dur romance option into the debate to make a point that it seemed odd to me the romances count was set in male Exile's favour eventhough they were equal, so i added Bao-Dur as a means to emphasize how skewed that particular line of reasoning was. So saying that even with it cut it makes for a better male Exile choice is something that seems inconsistent to me. That having been said, i find it interesting to discuss the possibility though. i liked Bao-Dur and felt he was sadly underexplored as a character. [Dhampyre] And finally on a lighter note, have any of you noticed a pattern here? Hekate Quotes = Red, Jediphile Quotes = Blue and apparently My Quotes = Cyan. I protest! Keeping in sync with Star Wars and the Force i insist my Quotes color be changed to Gray! *choked-up* Are you saying i'm dark side? Oh no! ----- [Jediphile,May 19 2006, 07:19 PM] You know, I don't think putting a ** sarcasm ** note in front of anything makes what you say afterwards any less problematic. If I say something really insulting or inflammatory, then I cannot invalidate it at the end just by putting a smiley there either... I was once on a board where some guy thought he could say whatever he liked to people and then avoid the fallout by using that tactic. The results were not pretty... [shudder] i was voicing my displeasure and frustration at the way i was being portrayed. i have that right. And i put that sarcasm alert in specifically so it was known to those reading it to take it with a grain of salt and with the understanding i was exaggerating and using terminology i usually don't to make my points. And while the references to our discussion disagreements were inflamatory, i did not get personally offensive anymore than had been done against me. And feel free to use what i have said against me. i said it, so i have the responsibility that goes along with it as a natural consequence. i felt it was important for me to have voiced my anger and frustration over the things i find to be wrong since in my posts i back down and i try to neutralize my statements. And i felt the sarcasm directed at me had not recinded, so it was important to me to make it clear i am not just quietly sitting by and letting it go on. Yes, that is my issue, but i chose to deal with it the way i did since others were involved in it and just as responsible for their own writings as i am for mine. And my having done that rooted from the fallout of others' tactics as much as from my own anger over it. [Jediphile] Because that's what the word means:"adj 1: compliant and obedient to authority" And before the word we used was "submission", which doesn't make it any better: "The act of submitting to the power of another" Neither definition fits Visas, as far as I can tell, since she is perfectly willing to openly refuse the exile's wishes. Then what would be the word to use that describes there is an inequality in the nature of a relationship wherein one is dominant over the other but that still allows room for disagreement on the not-dominant one's part? Being in a submissive role does not mean the person is absolutely submissive in every way at all times. That is why i used parent-child, boss-employee relationships to better clarify my meaning. Visas is compliant with Exile, and she does submit to Exile's power over her. She is not a slave who is not, by definition of slavery, given any room to question authority. [Hekate] And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. [Jediphile] You're allowed to use sarcasm, but I'm not allowed to be self-ironic?!? That was below the board... and uncalled for... :"> Now i am totally lost. What is it that was below board and uncalled for? and when were you being self-ironic? i read back through the posts and i thought you were telling me that i was pointing out inconsistencies as a type of being on my high horse/moral high ground because i had nothing to lose. Which led directly into the next statement which was "war is more fun when you are winning" which i thought was saying you were winning the discussion, and that, of course, would directly go against what your original statement of this not being about winning which you made when i wrote i found it more difficult to be countering your points implying i was seeing this as a battle ground rather than a discussion. So where did i go wrong in my interpretation? and i am sorry if i inadvertantly upset you over my misinterpretation. And of course you're allowed to be self-ironic. *joke* i'm not allowed to use words that mean what they mean when you don't like the point i am making, though *joke ends* Now that joke was uncalled for.... [Jediphile] Ah, so if I meet a girl I like and she asks me if the dress she wears makes her look fat, then I should always answer truthfully regardless? Sorry, but that's always a trick question i honestly can't see how building a relationship between 2 people with honesty over important things such as Exile's feelings and former feelings for Atris can be compared to honesty over if a girl looks fat in a dress. *joke* reach a little harder next time *joke ends* [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Jediphile] In the interest of not derailing the topic, I will say only that your comment has not gone unnoticed... i'm not sure it would be derailling to comment on comments. i sighed at disbelieving Mical with it being right there in the game, especially when things that are writen in the devs notes are used to prove points when they can't be accessed through playing the game. Figured it would just be enough to state i disagree without having to get into why since we've already done that. [Hekate] i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. [Jediphile] KotOR2 would seem to suggest otherwise, since we hear repeatedly from the "common people" that they see the jedi and sith as just the same - as religious fanatics at opposite sides. No, the jedi are definitely not beloved guardians of light and truth during this age of Star Wars. Yes, you're right about that. But there are also cases where people don't react poorly to Jedi. But i was speaking in a broad sense. Usually when one, off the top of one's head, thinks of Jedi, "good" would be at the forefront, and when thinking of politicians, "not so good" would be at the forefront. [Jediphile] You're forgetting the timetable, which is fairly significant here. Before the Mandalorian Wars, Vrook had a low opinion of the exile, Zez-Kai Ell and Vandar seem indifferent or impressed, while Atris and Kavar had high thoughts. When the exile was exiled, however, we know that they all had a low opinion, except Vandar, whom we know nothing about, although it would seem strange if he did not disapprove as much as the others. Atris began hero worshipping Exile before the Mandalorian Wars therefore Masters Kavar and Vandar having a high opinion of Exile lends strength to my point it is believable Atris hero worshipped Exile. [Jediphile] How would I even know that he is intelligent if he doesn't do anything significant with it? Besides, would you admire someone for being born into a a particular gender, skin color, class, wealth or whatever? No offense to you, but to me that sounds awfully close to racism, which is why I'm so set against it. Sure you might admire an athlete, but not until he has won races. That's trained skill, not innate ability that he was just born with. Forming Force bonds and natural Force aptitude are things that are important to Jedi. i don't see how admiring a person's natural abilities, skills, talents, proficiencies, etc relate to admiring a person's social-economic status. i was saying it is like admiring a genius for being a genius. The person just is a genius and there's nothing that person can do about it. Same with Exile's ability to form Force bonds. It is just something Exile is naturally attuned to, and Exile forms these bonds just as a genius (or Ghandi) uses her/his genius (his intelect). [Jediphile] Still don't see how that applies to Atris... From what i have read, the general concensus is she is attractive, or otherwise refered to as "hot Jedi chick". [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate] Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. [Jediphile] Have I said otherwise? I do recall saying, "in either case"... Yes, I did say that... Yes, you do. i thought that was refering to in either case (whether Exile is male or female), Kreia tells Atris she betrayed herself. Then i thought you were speaking of the Sith holocrons affecting Atris as a means of detailling how Atris could hold onto her feelings of love for male Exile for so long to counter my argument that her doing so seems rather unrealistic. [Hekate] She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. [Jediphile] That's an interpretation, and if that is to be considered valid, then my interpretation of the Atris-Exile relationship would seem just as relevant. i again fail to see how the two compare. i concured it states in the dev notes Atris loved Exile. i then went about the rest of my points with aknowledging that fact when it came up. *confusion* Sion: "I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." i do not feel Sion's and Exile's dialogue leaves much room for interpretation on the point of whether they mean "on their minds" as in thinking about (self directed), vs "presence in my mind" as in feeling the other within eachother (not self-directed). [Jediphile] Now, you have said yourself that this proves that Atris loves the male Exile How was thay my avoiding it then? *confusion* [Jediphile] ... but not insists that this remains immaterial because it is not said out loud in spite of Brianna's question to the male Exile about having feelings for Atris (which clearly are not the same as for the female Exile). Now, I would argue that since I saw the above scene and I play the Exile, then it is supposed to be something I can presume that the Exile is also aware of, or else that scene would not have been on-screen (sort of a bit how Kreia tells Atton about the wars on Dxun - Exile is not there to hear it, but clearly s/he is fully aware of it all). By that token one can assume female Exile is aware of Mical's discoveries which then revalidates the argument i made he offers info to Exile. [Jediphile] Still, even if I accept that the exile might not know, we still have the following possibilities in the end, when the Exile finally faces Atris. This is where i say "i am not sure about this since i can't remember that well, but i think Atris doesn't admit her feelings of love to male Exile nor vice-versa in the last confrontation between them", then you can go look it up in the dialogue text files and can prove/disprove my recollection of it. The option Exile has of saying: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." sounds to me as if Exile is uncomfortable with the whole caring thing. Exile is emotionally dense as it is, and is a rather dismissive person, so the fact Exile is so focused on her/himself when s/he is speaking about Atris' intence feelings ("I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me") to me suggests Exile is put off by the whole thing and does not realize the strength of Atris' feelings. Or worse, does, but has chosen to be cold and sterile about them. So, bringing this back to the issue of how much the NPCs personally affect Exile, i would argue Atris does not affect Exile deeply, nor does Exile care too much about her pain. Disagree at will... [Jediphile] Atris: "It is because I care for you. And I suspect that you alone hold that place in her heart, where nothing else lives. And that is why you are the only one who can stop the destruction to come." Now, again, given that Atris admires the female Exile and loves the male, that sentence does not carry the same meaning. As for the Exile returning those feelings, he/she can, during the same conversation, say: Exile: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." Again, it's the same for an exile of either gender, but since it's just admiration for the female and love for the male, it does not carry the same meaning. QED. Just as you think i am looking too deeply into Sion, i think you are looking too deeply into the Atris-Exile exchange that is the same for both of Exile's sexes. Also, as i have pointed out, Exile does not say he returns those feelings. i am agreeing with you Atris loved male Exile. i am agreeing with you that to Atris, her saying she cares for Exile has different meanings to her when she says it to one as opposed to the other. But it is Exile's reaction to it that i am saying isn't one of reciprocation. Exile doesn't feel the same way. i'm not even sure Exile understands there is a difference in Atris' feelings. So to count their last exchange as profound and suggest it is more meaningful than the Exile-Sion encounter is, to me, inacurately assessed. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. [Jediphile] Ah, but what are we talking about here? Are we talking universal truths and general terms, or are we talking about these specific characters in this specific plot? If we do the former, then I'll accept your statement as true, but I would also see it as trite and irrelevant, since nobody is likely to disagree with it as a general principle. If we're talking Sion and Exile, however, then it's a question of whether the principle applies at all to this specific situation. Hence my answer, "only the player can tell if that is true." I would have to accept that the feelings are there between Exile and Sion to accept that your statement is fitting, and as you know, I don't. Universal truths and the big picture... *warning: cognitive function core overload. Status reaching critical* Trite and irrelevant, eh? Hmm... You would just have to read their dialogue options to agree that Sion has feelings for Exile, and that Exile potentially has feelings for Sion, and if not feelings for him in the attraction to and/or love for ways, than that he, at the very least, affects her. As i recall, i was defending my position that Sion is relevant when i pointed out the universal truth that if Exile feels Sion and/or thinks about him, that he is important to Exile. That Sion is important to Exile was being refuted. So why now am i being metaphorically spanked for having been put into the position of having to defend what is a universally applicable concept? [Jediphile] Be careful about applying very broad generalizations to specific situations. The danger of making a flawed argument is huge. I mean, it is often wrong on principle. You may not think so in this case, but what if I said, "Everybody likes music. Britney Spears plays music. Therefore everybody loves Britney Spears." I doubt you'd let me get away with that, even if you did like Britney Spears i agree with you on this one. But in the context of the discussion, i wasn't making a bold and weak connection through stating a universal truth. i was kinda confused why what i said was being questioned... And to be a little cheeky, i would would equally advise to be careful of dismissing points as useless and irrelevant when they aren't. Else, we wouldn't be able to avoid get into semantics like this... [Jediphile] But what is love? Are we talking about the act, the feelings, or the commitment? Anakin loved Padme, but he lost that love when he turned to the dark side. He says himself that he wants more and that he knows he shouldn't, but he still makes the choice to take power and allows Palpatine to use his love as a catalyst for turning him to evil. It seems unlikely to me that he felt true love as much as self-imposed delusion at this point, because how can he honestly expect Padme to love him after he has killed children and seeks to seize power and do away with the democracy that she clearly loves so much? And Yuthura was not completely lost to the dark side - like Juhani she was DS out of confusion and delusion and could be turned LS. I do not believe that the Sith know love in the sense that we usually think of it. Sure, they know passion, lust, and infatuation. But real love - the love that comes from commitment and dedication - takes trust, and that the Sith don't have. They may be able to feel love, but I don't think they can truly expeirence it. The jedi can feel and experience true love (as we saw for Anakin before his fall and for Jolee), only they are not allowed to embrace it. As Anakin says, "we are encouraged to love", although only to a point... For simplicity's sake, how we have thus far been speaking of love is as a blanket definition refering to sexual attraction mixed with caring. i just write "love" and "romance" as reference bases rather than absolute terms nor in sticking close to their historical definitions, etc... It is good enough for what we are discussing, i think. Now if we were to go into more detail about what is love, is it true love, etc.. than i think game assessment wise, we really don't have enough to go on for any of the NPCs and especially not for Exile. So all the attraction possibilities get lumped into the same, general, "love" heading. As far as Anakin loving Padme goes, i honestly haven't a clue if he ever truly loved her at all. And i don't think whether he expects her to be able to love him after his heinous acts has anything to do with his own feelings for her. He feels how he feels and nothig is going to change that other than him changing. Yes, Yuthura and Juhani both had some LS left in them. One could also argue Sion did as well for feeling his role as pain was not worth continuing on for. But in that respect, i'm not sure just because someone is still capable of being rational and having good, tender, nice, protective feelings for another (or a cause, whatever) that that person isn't DS. Uthar had a sense of humour and he could take being insulted without flying off the handle. He also warned some of his students to be careful and such. It is still nice and good, and genuine i would think, but he is quite set being DS. All i'm getting at is there are some very evil people who do genuinely love others. But they are still evil people. And so i think there must be Sith who are parents who genuinely feel love for their children and/or partners. [Hekate] And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? [Jediphile] I fear I'm not going to step into your little trap. You know full well that what I said was a dismissal of your suggestion that Mical was somehow a more significant character because he had a direct tie to the Exile's past. Since the alternate character is Brianna, that suggests that she must therefore be less interesting since she has no such tie to the Exile's past. I dismissed that argument and said that it seemed unreasonable to assume that this made Brianna's story any less significant or compelling, and *then* I said that it would hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a direct tie to the Exile's past for them to be interesting in the plot. That is not the same as the dislike that you mention. I'm afraid you're not going to score brownie points here. But thanks for playing... my little trap, eh? That, i am sad to admit, would be giving me far too much credit. Unfortunately, you dug your own hole with that one, just as i have dug my own holes quite often herein already... As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) [Jediphile] Which is why I think his alleged emotions make no sense and hurt the plot.]/color] Bu you're the one who said he doesn't have emotions in the first place which was inacurate since he speaks of them on Malachor V, so i don't understand how his having emotions hurts the plot and his alleged not having emotions hurts the plot. What i am hearing is Sion hurts the plot... *confusion* [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. [Jediphile] What a nice "we don't know"-argument. Gee, thanks. You're making me blush.... (joke) [Jediphile] Basically you're implying that because there is no evidence that Sion and Exile did not know each other in the past, then they probably did. No, you don't say it - you very carefully avoid saying it - but it is the unspoken conclusion, isn't it? I mean, what value does that observation have, if that's not the conclusion? That you very clearly avoided saying it, though, suggests to me that you know it is a flawed argument, and that we cannot presume anything from what we simply do not know. i am surprised anyone can see so much hidden depth in my plain statements but do not get the joking in my obviously overdone ones. i have alot to learn about communicating through writing (not meant mean or anthing... i really do have alot to learn). i'm just saying it can be assumed they don't know eachother on the basis we aren't directly shown they do. It can also be assumed they do because of the presence in eachothers' minds statements. Assuming they don't is fine. i can easily live with it since my inclinination is they also they did not have a direct personal history prior to their meeting in the game. The reason i mentioned it is possible is because the game doesn't make it clear with the ambiguity in the player's choice to decide Sion has been a presence in Exile's mind. Therefore i felt it was important enough to mention just so it isn't overlooked as a possibility. That does complicate the matter more with the added possibility, but most things we're debating have diverging possibilities anyway. i'll, at the risk of sounding pretentious, repost my offending quote "... While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory." To me, i am stating it is likely they don't since it isn't mentioned in the game, but i allow for the possibility. i thought i made it a spoken conclusion of mine they do not have a direct personal history. So i'll say it directly, clearly, and unquestionably: i believe they do not have a direct personal history. [Jediphile] But I'll give you this much: If a past relationship between female Exile and the man that Sion *used to be* had been established, then the romance between them would make far more sense. It would have been a very convenient thing for the devs to do. But they didn't, and we have to live with it now. i can see how that would make things more "tidy" as it were, and it adds substance to the depth of their relationship. But i find it a different kind of compelling, interesting, and powerful if Sion and Exile didn't have a direct personal history. He full well knows she gave the order and was in part responsible for what happened to him, he knows one of 'em has to die when they confront eachother, he also knows Kreia values Exile far above himself, but he falls for her anyway. That has its own sad but potent meaning. [Jediphile] Another "we don't know"-argument, basically... This one I really don't like, since it sounds to me like it suggests that we can do just anything with Sion because he's twisted, insane, and generally evil. As both a GM and an RPG-player, I *hate* it when the bad guys do cruel and stupid things just because, well, they're evil and that's what they do... Sorry, but that's how I feel about it. No need to appologize for feeling that way. i think in reality there are very few people who are evil, period. So using that as a storyline cop-out does seem a rather cheap way of going about it. However, in the Sion dialogue quotes & notes i wrote above in response to Dhampyre's post, it shows Sion has more depth than just being bad guy #2. Sion is tormented both physically and mentally, and for him to remain alive, he has to do evil since it is how he connects to the Force. That is how i understood it anyway. [Jediphile] That depends on how likely it is that it would have been a problem, had it come to pass. Given the examples of Jolee's wife and master Kae, it seems fairly obvious to me that there would more than likely have been trouble at some point. The discontent in what i was writing was about how the criteria measuring an argument's/view point's validity are too inconsistent. Therefore i mention how one point emphasizing one particular idea needs to apply across the board for related issues. Hence, if it is pointed out Mical's feelings could have been intence and potentially dangerous (falling to DS from being too attached etc) than it can equally be pointed out his feelings were of admiration and feeling he and Exile belong in the padawan-master relationship and were not too intence nor threatening. i am protesting against using the assumption Mical felt too strongly about Exile as a means of discrediting the plot of female Exile, especially since in Mical's own way of putting it, he was in awe of her and her natural leadership abilities. Now expanding to how this ties in with Atris, in-game it is clearly shown she is very affected by Exile. She has emotional outbursts in front of the Council and she is told to mind her feelings. Now, if Mical's assumed intence feelings for female Exile when he was still a youth can be seen as plot breaking, than i say applying the same reasoning to Atris' feelings, hers are also plot breaking for reasons i have already pointed out. It makes no sense to suggest a Jedi Master having those out of control feelings is acceptable, whereas a youngling having out of control feelings is not. If Mical's love (going on assumption it was attraction/love) disrupts the plot's credibility, than so does Atris'. i do aknowledge the point Atris has been in the presence of the Sith holorons and they have had an affect on her. i also aknowledge she loved male Exile. However, when comparing Atris and Mical, the reason for her ongoing obsession while important, doesn't overide the basic fact she has those too strong feelings. [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... [Jediphile] You cannot help someone with a problem they deny they have. The first step towards healing is always to acknowledge that you have a problem, so I don't believe that an intervention would help until after Atris admits to herself that she has a problem. Technically, in order to be able to aknowledge something, one must be aware of it. Certainly no one can force another to face and/or fix their issues if they refuse to aknowledge them, but a person cannot begin to aknowledge those problems if they aren't aware of them. With this in mind, i was saying the Masters would have (should have) brought Atris' emotional instability to her attention. And eventhough they could not force her to change nor to heal, they could take measures to assist her with getting to the point where she could begin to aknowledge her feelings. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. [Jediphile] Suppression is not what you say: "Psychiatry. Conscious exclusion of unacceptable desires, thoughts, or memories from the mind." Yep. You're right. Suppression (i finally figured out how to spell it...) is the wrong word to use. i was using the non-psychiatric/psychological definition of suppress. i appologize for the confusion. Substitute "suppress" for "quash", "subdue", or "stifle", and the points i was making make sense again. Thank goodnes for thesauri... [Jediphile] If controlling emotions is suppression and is wrong or harmful, then the logical conclusion is that you must give in to your emotions to remain healthy. I doubt you think so, since it would then naturally follow, that you should never rein yourself in, when you get angry at someone. Self-control is not the same as suppression. Note the "expulsion of... from the mind" above. Bao-Dur doesn't put it out of his mind, because that would mean he consciously tries to forget it. He doesn't. He remembers his dreams, and he talks about them. That's dealing with your emotions. You don't have to give in to your emotions in order to deal with them. It is often enough that you acknowledge that you have them, even if you then decide not to act on them. For example, if I have a big crush on a girl, but decide not to pursue my infatuation because I see trouble down the road for various reasons, then that does not mean that I'm suppressing my emotions - I'm making a conscious choice not to pursue emotions that I accept that I have. And eventually those emotions will then just go away. As a human being, I have the choice overrule my emotions, not act on them, and then bring closure to them. Controlling one's emotions in and of itself is not inherently detrimental. What i was getting at is to live in that state as a constant is unhealthy. Bao-Dur, i think, feels his emotions strongly judging by his reaction to Mandalore and Kreia, and how he spoke of his self of the past, but he stifles his emotions so he will not walk the same path he took when he let his emotions control his actions. Both extremes of suppressing emotions as a constant, and of letting them dictate behaviour as a constant, are bad. My view is (and it is only a perspective) Bao-Dur stifles his emotions too much. i think he needs to let himself get into them more than he does. i was basing my points on why an Exile-Bao-Dur relationship would have its uses and would not necessarily be detrimental and/or bad for the plot. [Jediphile] He escaped because he knew he was going to be "drafted" into the dark jedi ranks soon whether he liked it or not... He may have left on his own volition, but I dare say he had rather a lot of *ahem* "persuasion" to leave... Had some compelling reasons to leave, indeed! This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* Atton also did say it took him a while to accept what she had told him as truth, so he didn't leave right away. He made the choice to leave based on many factors, the threat of what would be done to him if his Force sensitivity was found out being one of them, and his inability to go on doing what he had being another. [Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing

The way i understood it from my games is if you kill Vrook, the other Masters sense it and they become hostile on Dantooine regardless if you killed him before meeting the other masters. However killing Master Zez-Kai Ell or Master Kavar doesn't necessarily force the DS ending.