Hekate

To risk sounding cheeky, that would be the "apathy is death" option... Any other ideas on why choosing to side with Kreia is LS?

i didn't know you had played through.

Good luck

You're right about game mechanics and the d20 leveling system interfering with a logical progression of characters improving. So, yes, if looking at it from a game mechanics point of view, that the main character has to be the "best", "toghest", whatever, does mess up the logic behind things being that way. Frankly, i don't see why someone who first gained consciousness in the middle of a battle starting with next to no skills and experience has to automatically be close in level to the war hero and relatively quickly surpass him especially since gaining experience occurs across the board other than to maintain simplicity for the players and to make Revan seem special. Sure, Revan is a prodigy and all that, but believability comes at the expence of maitaining the superiority distinction. With this blending of mechanics and story telling in mind though, my thoughts were Revan did have an effect on her/his companions. Even if things were skewed in the player character's favour for her/him to be the toughest, the devs did decide to make the war hero level 4 rather than a higher level. They could have left him at level 4 and given him some bonuses instead (ie: the war hero bonus to feat # or something such as Revan getting the 40 point boost to Force points due to Force sensitivity) but they didn't. So, to look at things in the broader scope of the game relative to Revan's companions gaining "experience" so quickly, one could argue Revan had an effect on them. i'm not saying this is the case necessarily, it just felt that way to me. Guess i should clarify a bit, in the story telling sense; Carth, after being a soldier for 20 years who was active during the Mandalorian and Jedi civil Wars, and Jolee, after being a Jedi for nuerous decades (don't know his exact age, at least 70 at time of KotOR assuming he was at least 30 at time of Exar Kun Wars since he married late and he fought Nayama when she defected) both progress and gain abilitites and strengths very quickly, a matter of months, once Revan becomes a part of their lives. In that light, story telling wise, i can see how one could believe Revan affected them. But, all of that can be explained through game mechanics and keeping things simple for the game. With regards to Exile, yes, the leeching the Force from her/his companions does work as an explanation. There are issues around it though, ie: if Exile is a wound in the Force and cut him/herself off completely from it, how then could Exile form Force bonds without being able to feel the Force? Or how could Exile leech/siphon the Force at all considering s/he has been cut off in an absolute sense from the Force? Or, considering Exile became a wound in the Force from cutting her/himself off from it, would that then mean Exile is no longer a wound in the Force if s/he can reconnect to it? When Exile speaks of her/him feeling the Force and using the Force, s/he mentions it is as if it is at a distance, and other such things. All i'm saying is there is the possibillity Exile didn't actually re-establish her/his connection to the Force at all. Not saying that is what happened, it is just an interesting theory. The link i put in for post #3 has a thread that touches on this subject if you're interested in it. There is alot to discuss concerning that issue in particular.

IIRC, that only happens with DS characters. i thought the LSers learn the techniques by watching and Kreia explaining in Exile's mind. Could be wrong about that though...

i noticed it too, at least when it is thought out in a logical sense. Revan, when coming back after being almost dead, begins at level 1 with 0 experience. By the time s/he meets up with Jolee, he is lower level than Revan eventhough he fought in the Exar Kun Wars and had had many adventures and caused a great deal of mischief. Being at that relatively low level considering his life story, then gains abilities and strength etc, quicker than he had up until that point previously in his life. Same goes for Carth. He is a decorated war hero, has seen more action than the rest of the Crew on the Endar Spire combined, and he is level 4. He can't dual-wield, has few feats, and nearly laughable skills abilities. Suddenly Revan comes along and he can do incredible things relatively quickly. So yeah, i'd definitely say Revan 'gave them Force'. As far as Exile goes, i'm not sure Exile tapped into her/his companions. i had thought it was Kreia who was giving the Force connection to Exile. Not that it states that in-game or anything, i just felt that makes the most logical sense and can explain alot of plot holes to rational conclusions. This, and things along this line are discussed in this thread called "KOTOR 2 purposely making fun of Lucas's ideas?, The Force, all that junk Kreia addesses." at this link <{POST_SNAPBACK}> but it is older so it would be hard to find. You've touched on one of the things that makes the d20 and experience increase through killing system lacking. With Exile, it becomes uncertain if her/his power increase is due to game mechanics since everyone's exp increases that way, or due to the . i think in KotOR (the first) the leveling up through killing was simply a game mechanic. i don't know why the Council told Exile s/he . To me, that confused the issue, especially since .

I just did it a couple days ago and she stuck around until I had defended her three times. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep. Me too. That is true. i hadn't thought of that. And i guess the fact they "resurrect" twice furthers that point. But at the initial choosing, Exile wouldn't know that though. But wasn't it Kreia who pulled her lightsabre on Atton first? i don't remember... And Bao-Dur stood by to protect Atton against Kreia whom he said he saw is threatening Atton with her lightsabre. But the point you make Exile knew it was about redemption and not to be taken too literally in the actual physical acting it out sense makes sound sense, if that makes sense... (sorry, couldn't help myself there)

[Jediphile,May 21 2006, 10:52 AM] But does the quality lie in the romance or in Sion's complexity? Because the latter you certainly get in the male version of the game as well - you still have to convince Sion that the existence he has lived has not been worthwhile and that Kreia chose the Exile over him, because the Exile was able to give up the force, and that there is strength in that. I agree that this works plotwise, but you don't have to play the female Exile to experience it. The male version is just the same, except the early lines are different, because Sion sees the male Exile as a hated competitor for Kreia's affections and nothing else. But you still have to make Sion examine the value of his own existence and make him see that it is not worthwhile, which erodes his will. The last lines you quote are just the same for the male Exile, so in the end, Sion accepts the value in giving up the force from the male Exile just as much as he did from the female Exile. So we agree Sion is complex, good. Does the quality lie is Sion's complexity or in the romance? Yes. Sion's complexity is great on its own. The romance adds a layer to that complexity and gives female Exile more potential for depth as well. Also, in the bigger picture, basing the quality question on what Sion represents; the pain aspect, then his being able to feel tenderness and affection through his constant pain, represents the others affected by Malachor V have the chance to do so as well. When i consider those who were directly affected by Malachor V in the game, Nihilus, Kreia (who was a former Jedi Master), Exile, Bao-Dur, and Atton, all of them are pretty much incapable of dealing with their emotions and of forging meaningful, deep, and lasting personal relationships of any sort, wherein they do not supress, deny, or otherwise obscure their feelings and/or reality. So i find the romantic aspect of Sion's and Exile's to be a positive addition to the story and the plot. As far as the points Sion is deep regardless of Exile, and he has to die either way go; sure, he is deep regardless, and yes, he has to die either way. But i've dealt with these before so i'll sum up as quickly as i can: the difference in the reason for his dying between male and female Exile is significant to not only Sion personally, but also to Exile personally, and to the larger themes in the story. i find the love involved with Sion for female Exile (just to make it clear, it wouldn't matter to me if he loved male Exile as well/instead. But in the game, he only feels that way about female Exile, just as Atris feels love for only male Exile eventhough it wouldn't matter to me if she loved female Exile as well/instead too) is poignant, touching, (especially in contrast to the Sion's and the story's harshness), and important. Oh, and yes, many of the lines are the same. i hadn't intended to imply they weren't, sorry if it came across that way. i was attempting to point out Sion's complexity and depth as well as the significance of the female Exile-Sion relationship in quoting their conversation. i didn't write out every option either since i was going for the overall jist and the reciprocation of Exile's feelings. i don't have a save game with male Exile and Sion so i couldn't directly compare. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. [Jediphile] I'm not really about to disagree with any of this. I don't particularly hate Mical, I just don't think that he is very interesting. But do I think he has value in the game? Sure, I do. But given that we can only choose either him or Brianna to be in the game (by our choice of gender), the question simply becomes which character I find to be more interesting, and here Brianna wins hands down. She is a far more interesting character than Mical to me, and her "betrayal" of Atris adds depth to the plot as I see it. When I played male, I thought after speaking with Mical (in the jedi enclave), "gee, what a paperpusher...". But then he contacted Carth (or Cede) and gave a secret report, and I thought, "well, maybe there's more to this guy than meets the eye...". After that playing a female Exile, however, was disappointing, because my conclusion was "no, there isn't - he just isn't that interesting..." So that makes an argument in favor of the male Exile in my book. You don't like Brianna sparring in, well, the nude or close to it. Fair enough, you have every right to your opinion, but I do not think that all women feel the same way as you do, so while you might see it as demeaning, I do not concur that Brianna does. So we agree Mical has value in the game, good. i should have added to my above paragraph about Mical why i see him as a better character than Brianna (since they are the interchangable ones). One of my concerns and complaints about the male Exile being made cannon is how the female characters who are interested in him are depicted. To me, when i hear how they react, what they voice, their behaviour in general, they seem weak, too compliant, and lack centre. Their characters seem to bounce around too much in order to make them maleable for male Exile which hurts them as characters. Mical remains pretty much himself even if Exile tells him to take a hike. He knows himself, how he feels, what his values are without them being dependant on what Exile thinks, nor on how she may react or feel. i don't see that same strength in the females. Atton, as you have pointed out, doesn't tell female Exile how he feels about her. His character doesn't change because of his love for her. Same with Sion. He is going to try to stop her from getting made unwhole by Kreia, even if he has to kill her with his own hands, but who he is, how he reacts, what he thinks and feels are consistent and not dependant on how she feels about him. Guess to simplify, the males are constant and have a centre without losing themselves trying to curry favour, and their whole lives aren't lived, motivations dictated by, nor views dependant on Exile. The females basically all live for Exile. Two for Exile in any incarnation (Visas and Atris), the other for male Exile alone (Brianna). i find Visas specifically was well done and i believe in her character as she is. It doesn't bother me she is submissive (my opinion) to Exile. Considering her history, it makes perfect logical and emotional sense. All 3 of the potential love interests being so dependant on Exile's approval though, i find disturbing. As far as the Brianna vs Mical thing goes, meh, i find Brianna annoying. i don't like how she was voice acted, how wishy-washy she was, and all the other stuff i've mentioned before. She felt more like a bratty lost teen with a crush than a serious character. Not that lost teens with crushes can't be serious characters, it is just Brianna in particular didn't feel to me as if i could take her seriously, especially since she was supposed to be in her 20s, from what i coud tell. She did have some good qualities, it is true, but overall, the potential intensity of her plot and function in the story were overriden by the less ingratiating elements of her character. My feelings on it only. And i believe i said i thought it was good she had enough self-confidence to spar in her jiggly little outfit. i felt it was insulting to the players (for those who did not feel titilation was more prominent) because of the implications i mentioned in an earlier post. The point wherein it becomes insulting to Brianna is when she pulls the same stunt for all the sparring matches even when Exile tells her to put some clothes on. She ignores his discomfort with the situation and pushes it. To me, that seems rather a pushy, inconsiderate, and offensive thing to do. It'd be the same if the sexes were reversed. Try it once, if works, good for you. If it doesn't work, to persist seems rather... in poor taste. [Jediphile] It did in Brianna's fight against Atris. She could win, then Atris would zap her to the ground in the next cutscene, and then the Exile arrives in time to save her. Or she could lose, then cut to cutscene with Brianna at Atris' mercy, then the Exile arrives to save her. That battle could be won or lost and still have the same outcome. i thought in the Brianna-Atris fight Brianna has to win while she is being player controlled or else she gets killed and it goes to the "game over" screne. Only after Atris has been defeated by Brianna does the Atris cut-scene cue. [Jediphile] She's not bad-looking, but I wouldn't go further in that. Any other attraction would, as I see it, come more from the challenge of melting the ice-queen than anything else... (sort of like Han Solo does with Leia in ESB) i think Atris was intended to be "classically" gorgeous in the "typical" North American/Euro-centric sense. White, light coloured hair, blue eyes that stand out, pouty lips, high cheek bones, busty, tall, etc... Ultimately, seeing her as attractive or not would come down to player preference, but in the accepted ideal portrayed within the popular culture the devs use as a reference base, she is supposed to be very attractive. To be clear though, i am not in anyway saying those are necessarily good ideals to have. To each her/his own... [Jediphile] Sion clearly states having feeling for the female Exile, yes. I don't think that it makes much sense (which is why I say that I think it hurts the plot and his character), but he does say it. But I don't see the Exile returning those feelings with the statement you make here. "You've been a presence in my mind" can mean a lot of things. It can just as well be the Exile trying to avoid the confrontation because she is afraid of Sion as anything else, and so she placates him by accepting his comments of affection. I do not see that this statement *must* be a confirmation that the Exile has feelings for Sion as well in any way - it can just as well mean that she is afraid of him. [For better chi flow:]And I see the similar toward Sion in the female Exile's "you've been a presence in my mind"-comment. But though the Exile may be uncomfortable about it, I do think that the line to Atris is more sincere than the female Exile's line to Sion is. The reason behind that is probably that the male Exile no longer has true feelings for Atris, if indeed he ever did, but that when he says this, he has already chosen to spare Atris' life. You do not have that choice with Sion, however, and therefore you can lie or be sincere with him regardless, since he must die in any event. For that reason I do not see the two as completely comparable. [more snipping for better chi]Even if I accept that the principle you describe is true in general that does not mean that I must also accept that it is relevant to Sion and Exile. And I don't. Whatever Sion feels for the Exile, I see no evidence that Exile returns those feelings, and therefore your principle does not apply IMHO. She gets the choice of [persuation] (truth) "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." or [persuation] (lie) "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." among others. So i was basing my argument upon her returning his feelings on her choosing the truth option. That particular argument of mine becomes invalidated if she chooses the lie option. My other related argument though, is the only person Exile in any incarnation can have such a spoken and not dismissive and committal response to is Sion. [Jediphile] That doesn't make sense to me, because at the point where you say that line to Atris, you've already decided to spare her life. Then it would be truly cruel to lie right to her face, and letting Atris live is not the DS choice. It's true that the male Exile doesn't exactly reciprocate Atris' feelings here, but then how can he? If he doesn't feel that way about her, then it would be very wrong to do, and even if he did feel the same way, those feelings are the very thing that caused Atris' fall in the first place. Atris needs to distance herself from them before she can heal and become whole again, and the feelings she has would hinder that or even make it impossible. What i was getting at is how Exile speaks with Atris is very Exile focused. It is "I" focused rather than "you" focused. I again cannot concur she fell in the first place because of her loving male Exile. She falls no matter what. That is to me much more than a simple "Hell hath no furry as a woman scorned" meaning. There is something in how Atris identified with Exile (whichever Exile) that made her hold onto her rage and self-doubt for 10 years. To answer the how can he reciprocate Atris' love feelings; the answer, i think, would fall into a similar category as Bastila loving male Revan: love leading to redemption. Not that i think it would be good, it is just one of the accepted romantic ideals; that love can save people and all that. IIRC, that is what helped Mara Jade as well. So there is plenty of basis for it to have been possible. If that were an option; however; i think it would be worse for the situation than not having it an option at all. Rather than letting Atris figure things out in a safe way, throwing a romance in with the person who is the vessel of her problems, for her to attempt to slog through the romance as well... yikes! [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) [Jediphile] First of all, the point of whether a personal tie has relevance was made in the context of Mical having one vs. Brianna not having one - I did not not mention it in relation to the Sion/Atton fight (and I don't see how it applies there anyway...) *hesitation* Um, you did, and here it is: "Indeed, I find Brianna's confrontation far more compelling, because it both resolves her alleged betrayal to her sisters and Atris as well as settling the feelings both she and Atris have for the male Exile, which is significant because of Atris' direct tie to the Exile's past. That duality is not there in Atton's fight with Sion, since Sion is a stranger to the Exile." Only rather than compare Brianna to Mical, it is comparing Brianna to Atton through Sion's and Atris' personal (or lack thereof) histories with Exile. In an earlier post i stated reasons why the Atton-Sion fight held its own merrit without the need for them to have had a personal history with Exile because of what they each represent and bring to the story. [Jediphile] Second, no, I'm not going to step into this trap either. "a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter." I do not accept your authority to make this a black-and-white issue, and it is a trap, since the true answer IMHO is the unspoken option c. What I said before was that it hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a personal tie to the Exile past. Now, that clearly rules out option b. However, I did *not* say, "none of the character may have a personal tie to the exile's past", just that it would hurt the plot if *all* did. The logical conclusion is therefore that while *all* are not relevant, then *some* might. Therefore the correct answer is option c: "having a personal history with the Exile *can* matter, but doesn't have to". You get still get no brownie points, but I'm going to penalize you with demerit points for continual attempts to obscure the discussion. You don't need to see my identification - move along! i need to appologize for my tone with that one, it really did sound dictatorial. So i am sorry for that. i would really like to know how having a common basis of identifying a concept's worth is obscuring the discussion. If "option C" is the common understanding, than either of us could arbitrarily assign value to the personal history link, as has been done with: "No, Mical's personal tie to Exile and his supposing to be her padwan is insignificant, but that Sion doesn't have a personal history with Exile is significant". That makes little sense. That is why i state it should either be it does or doesn't. But, just because it is significant, doesn't mean it overrides other ties; as i have stated with Sion, i don't feel he and Exile need to have had a personal history tie-in in order for his loving her to be relevant and significant. As i read over what you have writen, i am trying to understand what the problem is, and where you see i am trying to trap you. i am quite preoccupied with trying to make cohesive arguments and to see the bigger picture of what we are debating. Just in re-reading what i have writen over the last numerous posts, i have found a few things i have changed my mind about and come to view differently, things i have come to see i misinterpreted, and things i have come to reach a deeper understanding about through our discussing. i don't want to trap you, i want to reach concensus. i want you to see the merrit in my arguments, and i want anyone who reads our thread to see why *off-hand* dismissing female Exile as inferrior to male Exile is an uninformed decission. i also want the terms of this discussion to be even so basic comparisson points are treated equally. [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... [Jediphile] Now, I know you read what you quote me for above, so why do you ignore the opening statement: "Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone." ? As i said, it doesn't matter if Atris feels sexual attraction for Exile, nor anger, nor any mix of any emotions. What matters is she feels intence emotions. The Jedi do not guard solely against feeling intence lust or love, they guard against intence everything, be it anger, jealousy, admiration, identifying with another too strongly... everything. Emotion X, regardless of what it may be, felt too strongly, leads to the DS in one way or another. Whether it is love to jealousy to anger = DS, or whatever other emotional progression follows from whatever emotions are felt. To the Jedi, anything felt too strong is bad. [Jediphile] I'm having trouble with this, since it seems to me that that you're willfully ignoring which emotions are at work here. You accuse Atris of openly revealing her feelings *for* (meaning either love or admiration) the Exile here, yet when I point out that those precise emotions are not unveiled in this scene, you ignore my point and proceed to claim plothole, because Atris demonstrates *any* feelings at all. YES, SHE DOES, BUT WHICH FEELINGS? It is not irrelevant in this case, because jedi are allowed to have feelings, it's just a question of which ones. Feelings present in Atris in council scene: Disapproval, disappointment, anger, disgust. Feelings *not* overtly present in Atris in council scene: Love or admiration. Attempt to maintain flawed plothole accusation rejected. Yes, there are droids here, but *THESE* are not the droids you're looking for. Move along! Yay, more sifting through previous posts.... Ok, i've gone back and re-read the Atris' feelings and the Jedi Council stuff back to post 70. The evolution of this topic began with the comparisson between Mical's and Atris's feelings. The conflict was between whose feelings would be worse or more plot breaking, if at all. i argued Atris's are worse than Mical's by virtue of her being a Jedi Master and that the Council would have acted on the intensity of her feelings. You argued a padawan feeling that way about his Master would be far worse and they would not have let it come to pass. From that, we got into the discussion of Atris revealing she feels strongly for Exile would/would not have been dealt with by the Council. With that in mind, Atris feeling love for male Exile matters in the Mical vs Atris debate. Her feelings of love are not what is important in the Council doing something debate since it is the fact she feels so intencely about anything (which happens to be Exile) that is the problem. Zez-Kai Ell's "mind your feelings" was about her anger and all that, not necessarily about her love since we don't know if the Council knew about Atris's feelings for Exile or not, nor if she was projecting love during the Council meeting or not, although judging solely by what is in-game, they did not, and from what we are shown, since it is the same cut-scene for both sexes of Exile, they would be concerned over what she was eminating during the meeting. And that is my point. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* [Jediphile] It would be a discrepancy only if Atton was a LS jedi. He was not. He was just an assassin/torturer working for the Sith, who found out that he was force sensitive. He explains how he had heard the stories of those who were found to be force sensitive among the Sith ranks and who were then forcibly removed from service for how knows what reasons (to be turned into dark jedi). It was only when Atton realised that he was himself force sensitive that he had to flee in order to avoid that fate. He was trained by Revan to be an elite Sith assassin who does not kill Jedi but rather captures them for conversion. How an abductor is an assassin, i'm not sure. He probably was order to kill some Jedi directly as opposed to capture for whatever reasons Revan chose to do so, so i guess in that light, assassin applies as well. Atton speaks of how he tortured Jedi, how he broke them. i thought he was doing the job of those he would have been sent to for conversion. He also mentions how he killed those he was breaking. That seems to defeat the purpose of breaking them. An example of which is that last female Jedi he spoke of who connected her mind to his, although he had personal reasons for killing her so he might have been able to cover that up somehow. He also states it is the Jedi (as in those who aren't fallen Jedi) who are taken to conversion 'therapy'. Then he says those who are found to be Force sensitive get taken, and he heard stories of how unpleasant that was for those who were found. Why they would do unpleasant things to those who were already fighting for Revan's cause of their own free will and who were loyal to Revan is beyond me. Perhaps it had to do with going that extra mile with complete domination over the fallen Jedi's mind since they pose a larger threat than those without Force use abilities. In the conflicting information on Revan's Sith and what went on, i find it difficult to fully understand. Anyway, pertaining to Atton leaving the Sith, he says the Jedi told him it was only a matter of time before it was found out he is Force sensitive, which means he would be taken to the dark Jedi training. That was one motivation for him to leave, but in my estimation, not the strongest. He speaks of how after she had connected her mind to his and let him feel everything, she had awoken feelings in him he had, up until that point,not allowed himself to feel. His true feelings. He admits he had never been on the receiving end of what he did to others, and after he felt what she could feel, he could no longer hold his own emotions back. He became completely unable to continue on with what he had been doing because of the compassion and guilt he felt, but also because he couldn't fake false emtions to the extent he previously had. Thus, he didn't leave only out fear of what would happen to him if his Force sensitivity was found out, he mainly (my opinion) left because he just couldn't make himself do it anymore. It isn't as if he stepped-down from being an elite assassin and became a regular grunt instead (assuming that was an option among the Sith way of doing things), he left the Sith, Revan, and the conviction of his belief they were in the right, completely and irrevokably. [Jediphile] Is he right? Ask a philospher - that's one for the ages, and one that we struggle with still in the real world. Like Malachor, that one echoes still... Well...? [Jediphile] I'm not certain about that. Are we ever told this? I do not recall a comment about Revan, Malak, or even the Exile ordering such a thing created and then commanded the engineers to figure out how, so I would assume this was something Bao-Dur thought up on his own volition. But I'm not sure... Even if Bao-Dur came up with the idea on his own, i assume they ordered him to build it since it would take time and resources which are both precious commodities during a war. It doesn't seem to be a kinda thing that could be thrown together in a short period of time. But you're right, we don't know if he thought of it himself, we only know he built it. [Jediphile] You're wrong there. I just checked the game to be certain and had no problem sacrificing Visas playing the female Exile. It's true that the option does not always present itself, but that has to do with a bug and not your choice of gender. Put standard clothes on Visas and equip her only with a vibroblade or lightsaber, and you'll get the option to sacrifice her every time, regardless of the Exile's gender. Ok, i was wrong about that then. i tried numerous times with re-loads and in different games, but i couldn't get it. She was in her original clothes and was dual-wielding lightsabres. Come to think of it, maybe dual-wielding is the problem... [Jediphile] Well, a lot of jedi did die in the Great Sith War, but I don't get the sensation that their ranks were depleted or close to it judging from how it all ends in the "Sith War" comic books, which is, after all, the original source of that information. The jedi assemble a fleet full of jedi vessels and fly to Yavin IV to confront Exar Kun. It even says, "thousands upon thousands of force wielders converge upon the small jungle moon" (yes, it just says "force wielders", but it does mean jedi, I think). At this point Exar Kun realises that Ulic has betrayed his location to the jedi. He then begins a ritual, which requires the sacrifice of all the Massassi warriors he has left. "Even as the jedi approach, Exar KUn prepares himself to unleash his powerful spirit... To shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos!" However, "The wall of light generation by many jedi becomes a crushing blow for the light side of the force... A flood that sweeps down to extinghuish the corrupted power of the Sith... and to stop Exar Kun." After that the jungles around the temple burst into flame, Exar Kun's forces are destroyed, and Exar Kun himself is trapped in his spiritform. No jedi are killed. So while many have been killed during the war, none of those "thousands upon thousands" are killed at the end of it. Haven't read the comics so i have no idea about that. i didn't even know there were thousands and thousands of Jedi at all... Can't argue with source material though... Tag... you're it...

Yeah, i can see that perspective applying. The issue i have with that though is to allow for the possibility for Kreia to be redeemed, the others have to be killed. Since apathy is death thus Exile must chose between the two (pertaining to Kreia's potential redemption vs companions' lives), that then is placing the chance for Kreia's redemption ahead of the lives of Exile's companions. Which doesn't seem particularily LS to me. Especially when considered in the bigger picture. Forgot to add that since Exile's companions began to confront Kreia to defend Exile, that should be taken into account as well. Also, in the bigger picture i mentioned, does the one act of the companions doing something wrong (if it is wrong) then make killing them right? i mean that is one act. Do all their other acts and future acts then become over shadowed by the one confrontation in the tomb?

Yay! Love is good. Glad to hear it is present. i find it kinda sad (sad as in unhappy, not as in pathetic) that you see it as sad though. i think having a forum for such debate and exploration is good. It's not like we're saying "males suck" "no they don't" "yes they do" "no they don't" etc. Some of the concepts we're exploring are interesting and profound, that also mirror 'real life'. Certainly not the direct pursuit of bringing equality and social responsibility to the world, but i see value in the debate. It also allows me to see other people's perspectives in a way i usually wouldn't be able to. All and all, a good thing... *growing uncertainty out of fear this too will be delved into and debated - nervous laughter - ha ha.. hun...* i think. It wouldn't matter in a vacuum where there is no point of contention over the representation of strong female leads in the SW universe. But this isn't a vacuum, and there is alot of contention over the issue, therefore, it matters. But it also matters in more personal ways since the question of how people see things specifically in that light can be quite disturbing. Bringing these issues to light and duscussing them, is basically how people come to broaden their horizons and can see other viewpoints. Then there is room for them to come to terms. That is the way of politics, and that is one method to use to initiate change in how things are done. But i have no delusions that our discussing this is going to have significant impact. But maybe, if someone reads the debate and sees a different perspective and they then question how they saw things up 'til then, then some use has come out of it, i'd like to think anyway... And that is why it is important to have discussions like this since just accepting yet another cannon male uncontested lead (uncontested lead as in a lead who will not take the back seat to another character) can be detrimental to the SW universe. It also, since Revan was made cannonical male ( <_< ), then reduces possible female lead representation to just Exile. So if Exile is made cannonical male, the game players' choices and experiences playing as female are reduced to just being some peripheral and unimportant choices in the games where the female versions had no real significance at all and will be completely disgarded in cannon SW, which by its nature, carries all the weight. So any representation of female Revan & Exile will have to be unofficial (female Revan is already there), will be reduced to fan-fic and thus have no bearing on the George Lucas official SW universe, and will get very limited readership. And i find that to be wrong. i know official SW workers aren't going to read this, and it will probably not even come to their attention there are people who care about it, but if that were used as a reason to dismiss its significance, than many things would be kept in silence and never discussed. i will respond to Jediphile's post later, gotta go.

i have a question regarding the whole Korriban tomb encounter with defending or attacking Kreia. By the time the tomb encounter takes place, the player has a fairly good idea Kreia is not a good person. While i do understand why Atton, Bao-Dur, T3-M4, can't remember who else, attacking a single foe would be considered unfair, i don't understand how siding with Kreia, after her admitting she is a Sith, and a condition of siding with her is having to kill the others, is particularily LS. Any thoughts or explanations?

i concur. While learning things about Revan's origins would be interesting, i don't see it as necessary for plot integrity. i think it is one of those things that would be better left unknown, and with the brain damage done to Revan, it fits nicely with those parts of Revan remaining mysterious. However, how Revan found out about the true Sith, what that thing is that Revan started and is now trying to stop, that stuff, does need to be explained.

[Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing to suppress his own feelings about Exile's reponsibility (and in this case, i do mean suppress. He does not allow himself to feel that at all). Two: it serves as a counter balance to how he feels about both the attrocity and himself. He sees, knows, feels the horror of Malachor V. He isn't at all deluded about that. The Jedi Civil War was a direct effect of the MSG activation. Those 2 put together are a helluva psychological and karmic burden to deal with. In allowing Exile to be free of the responsibility of those attrocities, it allows a wedge of that for himself as well. Anyway, that is how i see it at the moment. This does go against my theory he sees Exile as sacrosanct though... Hmm... They could work in conjunction though... [Hekate]It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. [Jediphile] It's because he cannot hold the exile responsible without reducing his own sense of guilt and responsibility. Bao-Dur says that the Exile had no choice - s/he had to give the order, since it was war, and the Mandalorians had to be defeated, etc. The Exile was a general. Generals lead troops in battles, and so it was the Exile's job to kill the enemy by whatever means. He cannot blame the exile for doing his/her job. But he can blame himself for giving the Exile the MSG - he can blame himself for luring the Exile into giving them order by offering him/her a terrible weapon so powerful that no warlord could resist using it to kill millions. If only Bao-Dur had not created the bloody thing, all those people would not have died, the "general" would not have been exiled, the jedi would not have fallen to the dark side, and so and so forth. Yes, it's a bit of a self-delusion, of course, but given the choice between accepting that and accepting that Bao-Dur had no influence or significance on what was to happen, it becomes easier to accept the responsibility, because that at least means that you had some control over the outcome. The opposite means that you were powerless, that it could likely happen again because you probably still are, and that there is nothing you can do about it. In that situation most would rather prefer to believe that they do have a choice, even if heavy guilt comes with it. i don't know. It was his job to make the MSG once the brass ordered it be made. It was his job to activate it when the order was given for him to do so. So if his General had not given the order to use it and decided to use a different strategy instead, than none of it would have happened anyway either. i think he thinks of all these possibilities and different potential outcomes. i still cannot connect him feeling he was powerless if he assigned the proper responsibility to Exile. i wonder if he would assign it to a different General were it someone other than Exile who gave the order... [Jediphile] In this context it means, "I'm willing to give my life so that you can live, because you have the power to defeat the evil that we that must be overcome, while I do not, and therefore your survival is more essential than mine." At least it does to me. i would agree with that if weren't said in the context of her admitting she has nothing to offer and that she would rather die by Exile's hand than by Nihilus'. Her placing her life in Exile's hands at that point is not about Exile defeating Nihilus. It is about her saying she sees little value in her own life and she is handing it over to Exile competely. That is a submissive gesture and one that defines their relationship as unequal. [Jediphile] And there is no middle ground between submission and equality? Besides, I don't agree that this is submission for the reasons stated above. Of course there is middle ground between equality and total submission. But i am not speaking of total submission. i am speaking of the nature of their relationship being unequal. i am not judging their inate worth as individuals, i am only saying Exile is in control between the 2 of them. [Jediphile] That does not seem so likely to me... What would prevent Nihilus from letting the Exile grow stronger while captured until Nihilus was ready to "eat" the Exile? Besides, Visas senses in the first cutscene that the Exile is a threat, so if she is still loyal to Nihilus, it does not make much sense to allow the Exile to grow stronger, since that would just increase the odds that he might kill Nihilus. The reason i believe Visas, initially, wants Exile to be strong when confronting Nihilus and her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus is because: 1) she was broken under Nihilus' will and he gave her that mandate so she would by logical extension follow it without hesitation 2) she herself had, at best, divergent feelings on the worth of life and living things so she didn't, at that point, have an ingrained desire to save the universe from Nihilus. She aquired that throughout the game and through her experiences with Exile & co. 3) she felt, at that point, Nihilus could not be bested, so she would have little reason to think Exile could put an end to Nihilus. [Jediphile] Visas knows nothing about the Exile's force wound until Exile tells her after the meeting with the masters. She just knows that the exile is a threat to Nihilus. And I don't see her hating all life. I just see her not daring to see the worth in it until after Nihilus is destroyed. i thought Visas, through her inate connection to the Force, knew Exile was Force-wise nothing. i thought that is what she felt on the Ravager; that nothingness. Hence it was difficult for her to hear for a long while. You know, as it states in your sig, "... but in the howling of a storm, it is difficult to hear the whisper of the blade." kinda deal. Altough it should probably be "silence of the blade" to fit better, but i think you know what i'm getting at. The reasons i stated i thought she hates all life is because she said so when speaking of Katarr, and her wanting to kill innocents, and such. But i think she was seeing the potential value in life before confronting Nihilus when she tells Exile she wants to know if it is possible Nihilus, and what he showed her about the ugliness of life, was wrong. [Jediphile] That's Kreia's particular hobby-horse, not Visas' Yes, yes it is... i thought it applied to Visas too, but that is clearly not the case if she wasn't aware of Exile's destructive potential. [Jediphile] You cannot conclude something about the Exile in general based on a DS act that the exile may or may not choose. And even if the LS exile did this, we cannot speculate that Visas was killed just because the exile didn't like her - Nihilus may have been tough to fight and left the exile with the impression that he could never be defeated unless they first weakened him by sacrificing Visas. That what "you must be sacrificed if I'm to live" means to me anyway - that Visas must die to weaken Nihilus so that exile can then live and kill him. Sure you can defeat Nihilus without killing Visas, but we can't be sure whether the exile was aware of that. i said "emphasizes", not "proves". i also said his walking away was an option, not that he has to. And we are pretty certain he can be defeated without having to sacrifice Visas since Nihilus was an easy fight and getting Visas to sacrifice herself is only one dialogue option and not a forced one, so Exile chooses to do so. Visas chooses to submit. If she indeed did have the defiance and independace argued earlier, she should have been able to refuse to kill herself. But because her role in their relationship is that of being submissive (lower rank, subserviant, etc), she obeys Exile's orders. Hence she is submitting to Exile's will against her own self-preservation instinct and against her belief it is unnecessary to do so to win. [Jediphile] To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? Because from what i've read, i don't think she can self-sacrifice for female Exile. It wasn't an option when i played female Exile. She can ask Visas if she could use the bond she and Nihilus share to weaken him, but the option for her to kill herself isn't given. i may have chosen the wrong dialogue options though. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. [Jediphile] Sure he says it - how else can he justify himself and his own actions? But he doesn't believe it. He also says, "How can you even live with yourself?" That is far more significant, because that's what he is looking for himself - to be able to live with himself. He cannot really do that at the moment - he is still running from himself and has been since Malachor. Being able to live with himself is the skill he wants to learn from the exile. He doesn't realise that the exile is probably even more in denial in some ways than he is himself. He justifies his own actions by the fact the Jedi who did not participate in the Mandalorian Wars were guilty of mass murder, of breaking their oaths to protect those they had sworn to protect, and of being unfeeling cowards who use the guise of deliberation and patience to mask their fear and impotance. Prior to your pointing it out, i did not see "How can you even live with yourself?" could be meant as a technical question, especially because he says it with disgust in his voice, but i see it can. i am actually excited at this discovery! Thanks. *smile* But i did say he is pulled in lots of different directions (that being one of them) by many varrying and often opposing factors, so it fits in well. But, especially with the death scene quote i posted above, Atton isn't one-dimentionally ruthless and conscienceless like that. He showed there is more to him in-non-cut-content-game too ie: he can empathize with Kreia's pain... [Jediphile] I don't see where you get that from, and in any event, it was close to four decades before the time frame we're talking about. Yes, it was 40 years and not 30. Probably closer to 45 by then actually. i am not certain of what you are specifically refering to with your question of where i get that from. If you mean the population pyramid annalogy, i learned that in school, and i mentioned it so, how i saw how it was possible for there to be a lack of teaching age Jedi, could be understood. But if you mean my idea the Exar Kun Wars killed alot of Jedi; i am quite certain Jolee said so... [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. [Jediphile] First of all, there is no complete hole in the pyramid, since it was not an entire generation of jedi that left. Many stayed. Bastila, for example. Clearly Juhani did too. And there seem to be more jedi of their age in the enclave in K1. Revan split the order. He did not cut it in two.But yes, some of the pyramid is missing, but what I don't understand is why the remains of the pyrmid cannot connect and fill out the blanks. The old masters who used to teach padawans have no padawans now, so they must teach younglings instead. The pick up the slack and the numbers add up. Problem solved. You're right there isn't a complete hole in the pyramid. i meant in the echelon where the young, teaching age Jedi are placed. i already did say the upper tier of the pyramid would be teaching younglings. i just said i thought the number of those who left vs the number of those who stayed and were able to teach was probably not equal and they would be unable to cover all the gaps. [Jediphile] Is it just me or is that precisely what Revan's army initially consisted of? Always sounded like that to me. i thought it was actual Jedi, not so much padawans who weren't ready to face their trials. [J]Pardon me, but please explain to me how this is not trolling or flaming... [M]Why? Because it is trolling. And you are swallowing the bait whole. [M]Now go outside and run naked in the rain, because anything is more owrthwhile than the diatribe you write. I am serious. You are going above and beyond the definition of fanboy. [J]Well, that sure puts me in right place and proves how much of a fanboy I am - I guess I'll run off to the rain now i'm not feeling the love here people.... What happened to the love?... * a plea* Sorry these are so long. I'm replying to 2 people though so go easy on me for double posting... *end plea*

In the public transit chat forums, I've seen threads with hundreds of pages dedicated to speaking of bus sightings. Yes, bus sightings. While i do understand your point, guess i'll explain my view. To me, discussing this stuff is like getting into the socially relevant issues you were refering to, except it is in a forum that puts enough emotional distance between reality and imagination so it is easier to talk about. This gives me a hard enough time as it is. I can't handle debating intence issues i feel strongly about with people who adamantly disagree with me. We can't even come to concensus here on the point if Visas is subserviant to Exile or whether Atton is complex. i certainly don't want to get into debates about religion, genetics, and such with people who cannot understand my views nor with those i find to be, sounds bad saying it but it is how i see it, wrong. And given that people see things so varried and people generally stick to their views and beliefs without having much room for seeing others' views, i don't think mountains could be moved with the amount of effort put into our discussions. Would be nice though. And it would make it worth it to get into it if it actually presented the chance things could change for the better. The other thing is, i'd reckon about 30%-40% of what is posted is repeating others' quotes so the conversation can be properly followed which reduces the actual fresh material post length. But i'm curious, why does our discussing these things in this detail bother you? [Dhampyre] Hekate sorry for the harshness of my previous post, had a bad day, forgiveness. :'( Thank you. i appreciate it greatly. Forgive me too? [Dhampyre] Yes but neither the male exile nor the female exile display any particular affection for Atris/Sion, it is one sided in both cases. All i am saying is thet with Atris we have a deeper understanding of why and how. With Sion its "You made me the way i am.... You took my master from me, i hate you, i love you". Bam Wham Thank you mam. Doesn't sound like a great story. [moved from lower for cohesiveness:]That is exactly my point. They are both nuts and love the exile who doesn't love them. Repeating myself for the tenth time, Atris's version is done with a better story, Sion's isn't. The 2 places we disagree on are: 1) the notion of Atris' feelings provide a deeper understanding of how and why she feels as she does, and 2) Sion's feelings are as left hanging in the ether as is indicated. i can accept Atris displacing her feelings about morality and self-worth onto another person since she is conflicted, and that person just happens to be Exile. i can also understand Atris loves Exile just because. But i don't have a clue why Atris feels that way about Exile (hero worship) nor what she saw in Exile for her to have loved him. But i don't use that as a basis to discredit her worth. They are both fine because the game suggests she loves Exile, and stated directly she saw Exile as her hero. Now for Sion. i just replayed the female Exile-Sion confrontation on Malachor V. And there is quite alot more to it than i remembered. Getting it down was a pain (unfortunately i'm stuck with an Xbox version), but i got some important quotes to make my argument. In the bigger picture, he tells her he cares about her and he doesn't want her to suffer as he has at the hands of Kreia. But it isn't just physically, he means it from psychological, emotional, and spiritual (as in karma, soul, etc) perspectives. The reason i say this is because he tells her to go back to Malachor V's surface and die there whole rather than for her to be warped by Kreia. He later mentions something similar again about her remaining herself is more important than her physical life. Now i'll walk through their conversation and fill the the non-quoted gaps to give direction: Sion enters Sion: "You should not have come to Malachor. She will break you, your mind, your body... you will be lost. Exile: "Why are you telling me this?" Sion "You and her are alike... yet different in all ways that matter. And I hate you as I hate her. I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." "I hate you because you are beautiful to me and in that weakness lies death." - here he is saying he hates the effect she has on him, that he finds her beautiful (i understand it to be meant in the depth and soul type of ways as opposed to the physical beauty way), and the result of her being able to affect him leaves him vulnerable to dying because of it since his will to chanel the DS and to fulfill his mandate of doing the pain thing is what holds him together. Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." Sion: "Then turn from this place. Do not go to her. Preserve yourself." "I cannot, if you pass you shall not return as you are now." Sion: "If you go before her, you will be broken. If killing you will spare you what lies ahead, then kill you I must." After Exile and Sion fight and Exile wins Exile: "I am stronger than you expected - and I am stronger than Kreia expects. Let me confront her and we shall see" Sion: "There is truth in your words but there is nothing left for me except my master." Exile mentions Kreia told her he his held together by the strength of his will Sion: "I am held together by the DS ... I fight because it is the power that the Force fills me with. To survive, to inflict pain on others ..." "I will not fall, I cannot die" - so his raison d'etre, why he is alive at all, is for him to be pain. Not only in the form of his physical pain, but also to bring that pain to others. As Kreia is betrayal. As Nihilus is hunger. That is why he commits evil acts; he basically is scripted to since it is the purpose he fulfills. He sees the possibility for more in female Exile, hence she poses a threat to his existence, and that is another reason why he wants to kill her. As Jediphile said, he is twisted and perverse. i expand on that by adding he is torn and conflicted over his very existence and if he even wants to go on, but he also isn't suicidal and has a will to live. But to live means to be a slave to pain and to wanting to kill the only one he can see beauty in. The DS gives him his purpose of surviving and not of just inflicting pain on others. That he has come to see an other as something more than someone to inflict pain on is what compels him and disturbs him. Exile tells him to let go of the Force and in doing so he will free himself Sion: "It is not possible to walk away from such things unscarred. To keep living when the universe dies around you" "The Force is who I am - the DS fills me. It is what I am" Exile: "It is possible to live without the Force. And to die without it." - Sion has a similar view and understanding as Visas. Not the same obviously, but i mean Sion has experienced large scale death and had Malachor V's wound effect him, and as Revan had planned, those who did not turn from the Force as Exile did, got twisted and damaged by it wherein they were inundated and indoctrinated by the alteration of their natures to DS Force users. And without him chanelling the DS Force, he will cease to be. He can see how twisted it is, he knows he is bound by it, and he hates it. And he hates how it makes him feel she had been able to let go of it. Exile: "What kind of life have you lived with the Force flowing through you? Was it worth it?" Sion: "It... it was not. No matter how many I have killed... there was no end to the pain... The blades the Force tore through my flesh. Kreia, she will try to break you, to teach you how far someone can fall. Her weakness is you. As you were mine. I am glad to leave this place... at last." So, it does explain alot about Sion, why he does what he does, why he wants to kill female Exile even with him falling for her. It does not specifically state why he sees her as beautiful nor why she in particular has that effect on him, but i think it is safe to assume part of it is they can feel eachothers' presences within eachother, and she was able to deny the Force and was thus free of the strangle hold the Malachor V wound has on him. And those are good reasons. [Dhampyre] I didn't say they were bad but compared to the male exile romantic stories, its not as interesting. Atton's is good but again its based on infatuation. Atton is attracted to both the male and female exile due to the fact that he/she is able to go on living without letting the burden of so many deaths weigh him down. Don't forget the exile has taken many many more lives than Atton, and Atton took a fair share of Jedi Lives as well.The female exile story only modifies Atton's infatuation into lust and eventually love. To defend Atton, i'll write down his death scene: "You're alive... did I save you yet? You're eyes. That bad, huh? Always was ugly now the outside matches. Was waiting for this but's not fair. I let you down... was supposed to save you. Was tired of living anyway... too many deaths... Never told you, lied to you. I don't want you to see me like this. I don't want to die infront of you... can't bear it.... Loved you from the moment I first saw you. Thought you were a dream. Meant every word. Tried to play it off as a joke... wasn't funny. Hurts when I laugh... hurts. You saved me. Joke's on me. Heh heh. Hurts when I laugh... hurts" So, assuming Atton wasn't lying as he was dying and such, he loved her and was not just infatuated by her, nor did he only lust after her. He wanted to save her, and he states she saved him which would be LS and assuming he means she saved his soul. When he says he meant every word, i would assume he is refering to when he and Exile spoke, both the good things and the bad things. This could, however, be refering to cut content. It seems to me, from this dialogue and from what he says in-game, he didn't envy Exile's ability to kill without repercusion nor remorse. It seems more akin to wanted to become a better person. And that is why i said he left the Sith because of what the Jedi who opened her mind to him had shown him and evoked in him rather than he ran to escape Revan doing horrible things to him. Atton also says, when he speaks of his past with Exile, it took time for him to not be able to do the Sith assassin thing anymore and he decided to leave because of it. [Dhampyre] Mical on the other hand is dull as a character and his love story is pretty dull too. "I didn't have anyone to train me so i'll just sit here in this monster infested enclave and hint that i have ties to the republic initially and then all else about that is forgotten". Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. As far as him sitting in the monster infested enclave goes, meh, that was a kinda weird thing for him to do with dead bodies just lying there and all in the same room. But that is where the holocrons were stored so i guess he didn't have much choice in the matter. The devs dropping his working for the Republic theme was odd, but i think it can be safely assumed he carried on with his duty though it seems the game gives no indication thereof. i thought i heard him talk about it or refer to it once, but i really don't remember. i don't see that as a big sticking point anyway. [Dhampyre] Atton was player controlled in the cantina on Narr-Shadda as well while fighting the twin-suns. When the exile goes to Jekk Jekk Tar. So yes, it is completely possible. But if Atton died there, it was "game over". Same with Mira when Hanhaar fights her. i thought it is in the engine that if all the controllable party members die, even if there is only one to control at the time, it ends the game. So if that is true, then Atton can't die fighting Sion if it is player controlled since the game would end. Unless it goes to a cut-scene before his hit points reach 0, sorta like they do with Sion and Kreia. But i don't think so 'cause that doesn't happen with player controlled characters. [Hekate] What i am saying is regardless of the outcome and of whom Exile loves, if any, Atton and Sion facing off is significant because of how they feel about Exile, what their characters represent to the story, and for their own vlaues as NPCs. [Dhampyre] Err?!?!? What? i am confused at what is confusing, but that just makes life more interesting. To rephrase (although technically that should be 'resentence' i guess...); it doesn't matter whom Exile loves or if he loves either in the Brianna Atris fight since their fight, how they are expressing themselves, what the fight represents to them and the overall storyarc, etc, is important in and of itself. [Hekate] i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole [Dhampyre] I beg to differ. That only tells us that the jedi masters knew of Atris's feelings, it doesn't mean exile knew of her feelings. No plot holes here. Move along. Context though. The issue at hand had nothing to do with Exile. We were debating why the Masters not doing anything about Atris' feelings made for a problem in believability and such. [Hekate] i do not know what you mean by his self-denial. He feels guilty but i don't think he has any delusions on the matter nor about himself. Or did you mean self-denial in the sense of he denies himself things he needs as in self-deprivation? And i am not so sure it is impunity either. He is the only one who actively voices to Exile he does not like Kreia and he tells Exile she can't be trusted. [Dhampyre] Atton is not in self-denial but he definately does feel guilty for what he has done. He doesn't trust anyone and has a good sense of who can be reliable and who can't. However that stands with both male exile and female exile. I don't see how this is being used to debate which exile is better? Actually, my above statement goes back to my defending my position that Atton is a complex character and that his value as a romance option cannot be dismissed so that is how it relates to the debate. [Dhampyre] At the end of the day IT WAS cut out. Lets not play with Ifs and Buts. Bao-Dur is NOT a romantic interest in the game period (male or female exile) it may have been originally concieved for him to be but it was cut out because of the already extremely long list of romantic releationships attributed with the exile. It was swapped for the much better and intellectually sound relationship of war veterans. Even female exile does NOT have any romantic links with Bao-Dur, if that is forced into the relationship it ruins it. For that reason and to avoid any confusion Male Exile makes a better choice. i know it was removed. i initially added the Bao-Dur romance option into the debate to make a point that it seemed odd to me the romances count was set in male Exile's favour eventhough they were equal, so i added Bao-Dur as a means to emphasize how skewed that particular line of reasoning was. So saying that even with it cut it makes for a better male Exile choice is something that seems inconsistent to me. That having been said, i find it interesting to discuss the possibility though. i liked Bao-Dur and felt he was sadly underexplored as a character. [Dhampyre] And finally on a lighter note, have any of you noticed a pattern here? Hekate Quotes = Red, Jediphile Quotes = Blue and apparently My Quotes = Cyan. I protest! Keeping in sync with Star Wars and the Force i insist my Quotes color be changed to Gray! *choked-up* Are you saying i'm dark side? Oh no! ----- [Jediphile,May 19 2006, 07:19 PM] You know, I don't think putting a ** sarcasm ** note in front of anything makes what you say afterwards any less problematic. If I say something really insulting or inflammatory, then I cannot invalidate it at the end just by putting a smiley there either... I was once on a board where some guy thought he could say whatever he liked to people and then avoid the fallout by using that tactic. The results were not pretty... [shudder] i was voicing my displeasure and frustration at the way i was being portrayed. i have that right. And i put that sarcasm alert in specifically so it was known to those reading it to take it with a grain of salt and with the understanding i was exaggerating and using terminology i usually don't to make my points. And while the references to our discussion disagreements were inflamatory, i did not get personally offensive anymore than had been done against me. And feel free to use what i have said against me. i said it, so i have the responsibility that goes along with it as a natural consequence. i felt it was important for me to have voiced my anger and frustration over the things i find to be wrong since in my posts i back down and i try to neutralize my statements. And i felt the sarcasm directed at me had not recinded, so it was important to me to make it clear i am not just quietly sitting by and letting it go on. Yes, that is my issue, but i chose to deal with it the way i did since others were involved in it and just as responsible for their own writings as i am for mine. And my having done that rooted from the fallout of others' tactics as much as from my own anger over it. [Jediphile] Because that's what the word means:"adj 1: compliant and obedient to authority" And before the word we used was "submission", which doesn't make it any better: "The act of submitting to the power of another" Neither definition fits Visas, as far as I can tell, since she is perfectly willing to openly refuse the exile's wishes. Then what would be the word to use that describes there is an inequality in the nature of a relationship wherein one is dominant over the other but that still allows room for disagreement on the not-dominant one's part? Being in a submissive role does not mean the person is absolutely submissive in every way at all times. That is why i used parent-child, boss-employee relationships to better clarify my meaning. Visas is compliant with Exile, and she does submit to Exile's power over her. She is not a slave who is not, by definition of slavery, given any room to question authority. [Hekate] And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. [Jediphile] You're allowed to use sarcasm, but I'm not allowed to be self-ironic?!? That was below the board... and uncalled for... :"> Now i am totally lost. What is it that was below board and uncalled for? and when were you being self-ironic? i read back through the posts and i thought you were telling me that i was pointing out inconsistencies as a type of being on my high horse/moral high ground because i had nothing to lose. Which led directly into the next statement which was "war is more fun when you are winning" which i thought was saying you were winning the discussion, and that, of course, would directly go against what your original statement of this not being about winning which you made when i wrote i found it more difficult to be countering your points implying i was seeing this as a battle ground rather than a discussion. So where did i go wrong in my interpretation? and i am sorry if i inadvertantly upset you over my misinterpretation. And of course you're allowed to be self-ironic. *joke* i'm not allowed to use words that mean what they mean when you don't like the point i am making, though *joke ends* Now that joke was uncalled for.... [Jediphile] Ah, so if I meet a girl I like and she asks me if the dress she wears makes her look fat, then I should always answer truthfully regardless? Sorry, but that's always a trick question i honestly can't see how building a relationship between 2 people with honesty over important things such as Exile's feelings and former feelings for Atris can be compared to honesty over if a girl looks fat in a dress. *joke* reach a little harder next time *joke ends* [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example [Jediphile] In the interest of not derailing the topic, I will say only that your comment has not gone unnoticed... i'm not sure it would be derailling to comment on comments. i sighed at disbelieving Mical with it being right there in the game, especially when things that are writen in the devs notes are used to prove points when they can't be accessed through playing the game. Figured it would just be enough to state i disagree without having to get into why since we've already done that. [Hekate] i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. [Jediphile] KotOR2 would seem to suggest otherwise, since we hear repeatedly from the "common people" that they see the jedi and sith as just the same - as religious fanatics at opposite sides. No, the jedi are definitely not beloved guardians of light and truth during this age of Star Wars. Yes, you're right about that. But there are also cases where people don't react poorly to Jedi. But i was speaking in a broad sense. Usually when one, off the top of one's head, thinks of Jedi, "good" would be at the forefront, and when thinking of politicians, "not so good" would be at the forefront. [Jediphile] You're forgetting the timetable, which is fairly significant here. Before the Mandalorian Wars, Vrook had a low opinion of the exile, Zez-Kai Ell and Vandar seem indifferent or impressed, while Atris and Kavar had high thoughts. When the exile was exiled, however, we know that they all had a low opinion, except Vandar, whom we know nothing about, although it would seem strange if he did not disapprove as much as the others. Atris began hero worshipping Exile before the Mandalorian Wars therefore Masters Kavar and Vandar having a high opinion of Exile lends strength to my point it is believable Atris hero worshipped Exile. [Jediphile] How would I even know that he is intelligent if he doesn't do anything significant with it? Besides, would you admire someone for being born into a a particular gender, skin color, class, wealth or whatever? No offense to you, but to me that sounds awfully close to racism, which is why I'm so set against it. Sure you might admire an athlete, but not until he has won races. That's trained skill, not innate ability that he was just born with. Forming Force bonds and natural Force aptitude are things that are important to Jedi. i don't see how admiring a person's natural abilities, skills, talents, proficiencies, etc relate to admiring a person's social-economic status. i was saying it is like admiring a genius for being a genius. The person just is a genius and there's nothing that person can do about it. Same with Exile's ability to form Force bonds. It is just something Exile is naturally attuned to, and Exile forms these bonds just as a genius (or Ghandi) uses her/his genius (his intelect). [Jediphile] Still don't see how that applies to Atris... From what i have read, the general concensus is she is attractive, or otherwise refered to as "hot Jedi chick". [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. [Hekate] Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. [Jediphile] Have I said otherwise? I do recall saying, "in either case"... Yes, I did say that... Yes, you do. i thought that was refering to in either case (whether Exile is male or female), Kreia tells Atris she betrayed herself. Then i thought you were speaking of the Sith holocrons affecting Atris as a means of detailling how Atris could hold onto her feelings of love for male Exile for so long to counter my argument that her doing so seems rather unrealistic. [Hekate] She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. [Jediphile] That's an interpretation, and if that is to be considered valid, then my interpretation of the Atris-Exile relationship would seem just as relevant. i again fail to see how the two compare. i concured it states in the dev notes Atris loved Exile. i then went about the rest of my points with aknowledging that fact when it came up. *confusion* Sion: "I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." i do not feel Sion's and Exile's dialogue leaves much room for interpretation on the point of whether they mean "on their minds" as in thinking about (self directed), vs "presence in my mind" as in feeling the other within eachother (not self-directed). [Jediphile] Now, you have said yourself that this proves that Atris loves the male Exile How was thay my avoiding it then? *confusion* [Jediphile] ... but not insists that this remains immaterial because it is not said out loud in spite of Brianna's question to the male Exile about having feelings for Atris (which clearly are not the same as for the female Exile). Now, I would argue that since I saw the above scene and I play the Exile, then it is supposed to be something I can presume that the Exile is also aware of, or else that scene would not have been on-screen (sort of a bit how Kreia tells Atton about the wars on Dxun - Exile is not there to hear it, but clearly s/he is fully aware of it all). By that token one can assume female Exile is aware of Mical's discoveries which then revalidates the argument i made he offers info to Exile. [Jediphile] Still, even if I accept that the exile might not know, we still have the following possibilities in the end, when the Exile finally faces Atris. This is where i say "i am not sure about this since i can't remember that well, but i think Atris doesn't admit her feelings of love to male Exile nor vice-versa in the last confrontation between them", then you can go look it up in the dialogue text files and can prove/disprove my recollection of it. The option Exile has of saying: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." sounds to me as if Exile is uncomfortable with the whole caring thing. Exile is emotionally dense as it is, and is a rather dismissive person, so the fact Exile is so focused on her/himself when s/he is speaking about Atris' intence feelings ("I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me") to me suggests Exile is put off by the whole thing and does not realize the strength of Atris' feelings. Or worse, does, but has chosen to be cold and sterile about them. So, bringing this back to the issue of how much the NPCs personally affect Exile, i would argue Atris does not affect Exile deeply, nor does Exile care too much about her pain. Disagree at will... [Jediphile] Atris: "It is because I care for you. And I suspect that you alone hold that place in her heart, where nothing else lives. And that is why you are the only one who can stop the destruction to come." Now, again, given that Atris admires the female Exile and loves the male, that sentence does not carry the same meaning. As for the Exile returning those feelings, he/she can, during the same conversation, say: Exile: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." Again, it's the same for an exile of either gender, but since it's just admiration for the female and love for the male, it does not carry the same meaning. QED. Just as you think i am looking too deeply into Sion, i think you are looking too deeply into the Atris-Exile exchange that is the same for both of Exile's sexes. Also, as i have pointed out, Exile does not say he returns those feelings. i am agreeing with you Atris loved male Exile. i am agreeing with you that to Atris, her saying she cares for Exile has different meanings to her when she says it to one as opposed to the other. But it is Exile's reaction to it that i am saying isn't one of reciprocation. Exile doesn't feel the same way. i'm not even sure Exile understands there is a difference in Atris' feelings. So to count their last exchange as profound and suggest it is more meaningful than the Exile-Sion encounter is, to me, inacurately assessed. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM]i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. [Jediphile] Ah, but what are we talking about here? Are we talking universal truths and general terms, or are we talking about these specific characters in this specific plot? If we do the former, then I'll accept your statement as true, but I would also see it as trite and irrelevant, since nobody is likely to disagree with it as a general principle. If we're talking Sion and Exile, however, then it's a question of whether the principle applies at all to this specific situation. Hence my answer, "only the player can tell if that is true." I would have to accept that the feelings are there between Exile and Sion to accept that your statement is fitting, and as you know, I don't. Universal truths and the big picture... *warning: cognitive function core overload. Status reaching critical* Trite and irrelevant, eh? Hmm... You would just have to read their dialogue options to agree that Sion has feelings for Exile, and that Exile potentially has feelings for Sion, and if not feelings for him in the attraction to and/or love for ways, than that he, at the very least, affects her. As i recall, i was defending my position that Sion is relevant when i pointed out the universal truth that if Exile feels Sion and/or thinks about him, that he is important to Exile. That Sion is important to Exile was being refuted. So why now am i being metaphorically spanked for having been put into the position of having to defend what is a universally applicable concept? [Jediphile] Be careful about applying very broad generalizations to specific situations. The danger of making a flawed argument is huge. I mean, it is often wrong on principle. You may not think so in this case, but what if I said, "Everybody likes music. Britney Spears plays music. Therefore everybody loves Britney Spears." I doubt you'd let me get away with that, even if you did like Britney Spears i agree with you on this one. But in the context of the discussion, i wasn't making a bold and weak connection through stating a universal truth. i was kinda confused why what i said was being questioned... And to be a little cheeky, i would would equally advise to be careful of dismissing points as useless and irrelevant when they aren't. Else, we wouldn't be able to avoid get into semantics like this... [Jediphile] But what is love? Are we talking about the act, the feelings, or the commitment? Anakin loved Padme, but he lost that love when he turned to the dark side. He says himself that he wants more and that he knows he shouldn't, but he still makes the choice to take power and allows Palpatine to use his love as a catalyst for turning him to evil. It seems unlikely to me that he felt true love as much as self-imposed delusion at this point, because how can he honestly expect Padme to love him after he has killed children and seeks to seize power and do away with the democracy that she clearly loves so much? And Yuthura was not completely lost to the dark side - like Juhani she was DS out of confusion and delusion and could be turned LS. I do not believe that the Sith know love in the sense that we usually think of it. Sure, they know passion, lust, and infatuation. But real love - the love that comes from commitment and dedication - takes trust, and that the Sith don't have. They may be able to feel love, but I don't think they can truly expeirence it. The jedi can feel and experience true love (as we saw for Anakin before his fall and for Jolee), only they are not allowed to embrace it. As Anakin says, "we are encouraged to love", although only to a point... For simplicity's sake, how we have thus far been speaking of love is as a blanket definition refering to sexual attraction mixed with caring. i just write "love" and "romance" as reference bases rather than absolute terms nor in sticking close to their historical definitions, etc... It is good enough for what we are discussing, i think. Now if we were to go into more detail about what is love, is it true love, etc.. than i think game assessment wise, we really don't have enough to go on for any of the NPCs and especially not for Exile. So all the attraction possibilities get lumped into the same, general, "love" heading. As far as Anakin loving Padme goes, i honestly haven't a clue if he ever truly loved her at all. And i don't think whether he expects her to be able to love him after his heinous acts has anything to do with his own feelings for her. He feels how he feels and nothig is going to change that other than him changing. Yes, Yuthura and Juhani both had some LS left in them. One could also argue Sion did as well for feeling his role as pain was not worth continuing on for. But in that respect, i'm not sure just because someone is still capable of being rational and having good, tender, nice, protective feelings for another (or a cause, whatever) that that person isn't DS. Uthar had a sense of humour and he could take being insulted without flying off the handle. He also warned some of his students to be careful and such. It is still nice and good, and genuine i would think, but he is quite set being DS. All i'm getting at is there are some very evil people who do genuinely love others. But they are still evil people. And so i think there must be Sith who are parents who genuinely feel love for their children and/or partners. [Hekate] And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? [Jediphile] I fear I'm not going to step into your little trap. You know full well that what I said was a dismissal of your suggestion that Mical was somehow a more significant character because he had a direct tie to the Exile's past. Since the alternate character is Brianna, that suggests that she must therefore be less interesting since she has no such tie to the Exile's past. I dismissed that argument and said that it seemed unreasonable to assume that this made Brianna's story any less significant or compelling, and *then* I said that it would hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a direct tie to the Exile's past for them to be interesting in the plot. That is not the same as the dislike that you mention. I'm afraid you're not going to score brownie points here. But thanks for playing... my little trap, eh? That, i am sad to admit, would be giving me far too much credit. Unfortunately, you dug your own hole with that one, just as i have dug my own holes quite often herein already... As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) [Jediphile] Which is why I think his alleged emotions make no sense and hurt the plot.]/color] Bu you're the one who said he doesn't have emotions in the first place which was inacurate since he speaks of them on Malachor V, so i don't understand how his having emotions hurts the plot and his alleged not having emotions hurts the plot. What i am hearing is Sion hurts the plot... *confusion* [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. [Jediphile] What a nice "we don't know"-argument. Gee, thanks. You're making me blush.... (joke) [Jediphile] Basically you're implying that because there is no evidence that Sion and Exile did not know each other in the past, then they probably did. No, you don't say it - you very carefully avoid saying it - but it is the unspoken conclusion, isn't it? I mean, what value does that observation have, if that's not the conclusion? That you very clearly avoided saying it, though, suggests to me that you know it is a flawed argument, and that we cannot presume anything from what we simply do not know. i am surprised anyone can see so much hidden depth in my plain statements but do not get the joking in my obviously overdone ones. i have alot to learn about communicating through writing (not meant mean or anthing... i really do have alot to learn). i'm just saying it can be assumed they don't know eachother on the basis we aren't directly shown they do. It can also be assumed they do because of the presence in eachothers' minds statements. Assuming they don't is fine. i can easily live with it since my inclinination is they also they did not have a direct personal history prior to their meeting in the game. The reason i mentioned it is possible is because the game doesn't make it clear with the ambiguity in the player's choice to decide Sion has been a presence in Exile's mind. Therefore i felt it was important enough to mention just so it isn't overlooked as a possibility. That does complicate the matter more with the added possibility, but most things we're debating have diverging possibilities anyway. i'll, at the risk of sounding pretentious, repost my offending quote "... While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory." To me, i am stating it is likely they don't since it isn't mentioned in the game, but i allow for the possibility. i thought i made it a spoken conclusion of mine they do not have a direct personal history. So i'll say it directly, clearly, and unquestionably: i believe they do not have a direct personal history. [Jediphile] But I'll give you this much: If a past relationship between female Exile and the man that Sion *used to be* had been established, then the romance between them would make far more sense. It would have been a very convenient thing for the devs to do. But they didn't, and we have to live with it now. i can see how that would make things more "tidy" as it were, and it adds substance to the depth of their relationship. But i find it a different kind of compelling, interesting, and powerful if Sion and Exile didn't have a direct personal history. He full well knows she gave the order and was in part responsible for what happened to him, he knows one of 'em has to die when they confront eachother, he also knows Kreia values Exile far above himself, but he falls for her anyway. That has its own sad but potent meaning. [Jediphile] Another "we don't know"-argument, basically... This one I really don't like, since it sounds to me like it suggests that we can do just anything with Sion because he's twisted, insane, and generally evil. As both a GM and an RPG-player, I *hate* it when the bad guys do cruel and stupid things just because, well, they're evil and that's what they do... Sorry, but that's how I feel about it. No need to appologize for feeling that way. i think in reality there are very few people who are evil, period. So using that as a storyline cop-out does seem a rather cheap way of going about it. However, in the Sion dialogue quotes & notes i wrote above in response to Dhampyre's post, it shows Sion has more depth than just being bad guy #2. Sion is tormented both physically and mentally, and for him to remain alive, he has to do evil since it is how he connects to the Force. That is how i understood it anyway. [Jediphile] That depends on how likely it is that it would have been a problem, had it come to pass. Given the examples of Jolee's wife and master Kae, it seems fairly obvious to me that there would more than likely have been trouble at some point. The discontent in what i was writing was about how the criteria measuring an argument's/view point's validity are too inconsistent. Therefore i mention how one point emphasizing one particular idea needs to apply across the board for related issues. Hence, if it is pointed out Mical's feelings could have been intence and potentially dangerous (falling to DS from being too attached etc) than it can equally be pointed out his feelings were of admiration and feeling he and Exile belong in the padawan-master relationship and were not too intence nor threatening. i am protesting against using the assumption Mical felt too strongly about Exile as a means of discrediting the plot of female Exile, especially since in Mical's own way of putting it, he was in awe of her and her natural leadership abilities. Now expanding to how this ties in with Atris, in-game it is clearly shown she is very affected by Exile. She has emotional outbursts in front of the Council and she is told to mind her feelings. Now, if Mical's assumed intence feelings for female Exile when he was still a youth can be seen as plot breaking, than i say applying the same reasoning to Atris' feelings, hers are also plot breaking for reasons i have already pointed out. It makes no sense to suggest a Jedi Master having those out of control feelings is acceptable, whereas a youngling having out of control feelings is not. If Mical's love (going on assumption it was attraction/love) disrupts the plot's credibility, than so does Atris'. i do aknowledge the point Atris has been in the presence of the Sith holorons and they have had an affect on her. i also aknowledge she loved male Exile. However, when comparing Atris and Mical, the reason for her ongoing obsession while important, doesn't overide the basic fact she has those too strong feelings. [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... [Jediphile] You cannot help someone with a problem they deny they have. The first step towards healing is always to acknowledge that you have a problem, so I don't believe that an intervention would help until after Atris admits to herself that she has a problem. Technically, in order to be able to aknowledge something, one must be aware of it. Certainly no one can force another to face and/or fix their issues if they refuse to aknowledge them, but a person cannot begin to aknowledge those problems if they aren't aware of them. With this in mind, i was saying the Masters would have (should have) brought Atris' emotional instability to her attention. And eventhough they could not force her to change nor to heal, they could take measures to assist her with getting to the point where she could begin to aknowledge her feelings. [Hekate,May 19 2006, 02:56 PM] i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. [Jediphile] Suppression is not what you say: "Psychiatry. Conscious exclusion of unacceptable desires, thoughts, or memories from the mind." Yep. You're right. Suppression (i finally figured out how to spell it...) is the wrong word to use. i was using the non-psychiatric/psychological definition of suppress. i appologize for the confusion. Substitute "suppress" for "quash", "subdue", or "stifle", and the points i was making make sense again. Thank goodnes for thesauri... [Jediphile] If controlling emotions is suppression and is wrong or harmful, then the logical conclusion is that you must give in to your emotions to remain healthy. I doubt you think so, since it would then naturally follow, that you should never rein yourself in, when you get angry at someone. Self-control is not the same as suppression. Note the "expulsion of... from the mind" above. Bao-Dur doesn't put it out of his mind, because that would mean he consciously tries to forget it. He doesn't. He remembers his dreams, and he talks about them. That's dealing with your emotions. You don't have to give in to your emotions in order to deal with them. It is often enough that you acknowledge that you have them, even if you then decide not to act on them. For example, if I have a big crush on a girl, but decide not to pursue my infatuation because I see trouble down the road for various reasons, then that does not mean that I'm suppressing my emotions - I'm making a conscious choice not to pursue emotions that I accept that I have. And eventually those emotions will then just go away. As a human being, I have the choice overrule my emotions, not act on them, and then bring closure to them. Controlling one's emotions in and of itself is not inherently detrimental. What i was getting at is to live in that state as a constant is unhealthy. Bao-Dur, i think, feels his emotions strongly judging by his reaction to Mandalore and Kreia, and how he spoke of his self of the past, but he stifles his emotions so he will not walk the same path he took when he let his emotions control his actions. Both extremes of suppressing emotions as a constant, and of letting them dictate behaviour as a constant, are bad. My view is (and it is only a perspective) Bao-Dur stifles his emotions too much. i think he needs to let himself get into them more than he does. i was basing my points on why an Exile-Bao-Dur relationship would have its uses and would not necessarily be detrimental and/or bad for the plot. [Jediphile] He escaped because he knew he was going to be "drafted" into the dark jedi ranks soon whether he liked it or not... He may have left on his own volition, but I dare say he had rather a lot of *ahem* "persuasion" to leave... Had some compelling reasons to leave, indeed! This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* Atton also did say it took him a while to accept what she had told him as truth, so he didn't leave right away. He made the choice to leave based on many factors, the threat of what would be done to him if his Force sensitivity was found out being one of them, and his inability to go on doing what he had being another. [Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing

The way i understood it from my games is if you kill Vrook, the other Masters sense it and they become hostile on Dantooine regardless if you killed him before meeting the other masters. However killing Master Zez-Kai Ell or Master Kavar doesn't necessarily force the DS ending.

continued from last post, still don't know what went wrong [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] The level of effect being the victim of a severe trauma versus the perpetrator of a severe trauma is so completely differential in scale and scope. There most certainly is guilt involved in the complex intermixing of emotions Visas experiences. When she speaks with Exile about Katarr, she mentions she questions why she survived. Having something of that scale occur as she could do nothing other than live through it, even losing herself to the point wherein she sees life as ugly and abhorent, that does not go away with an epiphany nor a single event, not even with the death of the one who caused such destruction in the first place. And Exile is the one who caused the cataclysmic event creating the Force wound from which Nihilus, hence the resultant destruction of Katarr, was made. Then she made herself Exile's servant. That does not bode well for her psyche, nor for her being able to heal. [Jediphile] No, she did not make herself the Exile's servant. She made herself a servant to the greater cause of destroying Nihilus. Not the same at all. i guess we have wildly different views on what "My life for yours" means. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i disagree she was in a trance-like state and she had a sudden perception change when he defeated her. She was quite aware when she spoke with Nihilus in the cut-scene, even making the decision to take a shot at him by asking him if he is affraid of the "noise" she picked-up on. Now certainly, one could assume she was in a disociative state of mind while serving Nihilus; however; that way of perceiving and experiencing life does not simply change with one event. The brain requires adjustment to the changes, especially if that is how one survived through ongoing psychological and emotional strain. [Jediphile] Yes, but then KotOR2 takes place over the course of an entire year or more, and there are a lot of experiences during that time. And Visas seems to put her trauma behind her with astounding strength. i didn't see it. i saw she was single-mindedly focused on her task of bringing Exile to Nihilus. i heard her speak submissively to Exile. i heard her defer to Exile's will other than with the dancing for Vogga thing. i heard her voice concern and/or disagreement but back down at Exile's protest. Those are acts of submission. Not of equalitly. [Jediphile] But I don't agree with you that she is fully aware in the cutscene you mention above. Knowing Visas, it seems more likely that she is a witness to her own actions more than anything. She does not take a shot at Nihilus - she states openly whether there is concern. Given how much she is broken upon Nihilus' will at the time, she never would have dared to challenge of question his authority. You are speaking of her being in a dissociative state, i think. And i agreed with that. But i do believe she was quite lucid insofar as her being aware of what she was doing goes. i think it is possible she wasn't taking a shot at Nihilus by asking if he is affraid of Exile. It may very well be she wasn't even really consciously thinking of what she was saying and just reacting. The reason i don't think full dissociation is the case though is she seems to be completely in control of her faculties and she seems to be conditioned to know what he will get angry over and it seemed to me as if she added that fear dig to get a shot in. Again, it doesn't mean i am necessarily right. However, if she is dissociative to that degree with Nihilus, it makes little sense she would suddenly be able to function at full cognitive functioning immediately once she left his presence. And the whole notion of her being broken upon Nihilus' will in conjunction with her statement she has nothing to offer Exile, indicate to me she is in a submissive mindframe with Exile from their very first encounter on. [Jediphile] Well, those are not nice people... She meant everyone in the cantina. Not just Vaklu's soldiers. Exile has the option of telling her not to harm innocents. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i don't think her priority is to kill Nihilus before the Ravager. [Jediphile] What?!? Are we playing the same game? Visas absolutely *refuses* to take the Exile to Nihilus until s/he is powerful enough to defeat him in the VERY FIRST conversation you ever have with her Visas: "Even if I could lead you to my Master, I cannot permit you to find him... until you are ready.{Quiet}If I bring you before my Master, untested, without your potential realized, then you will be lost to me. {Beat}And I cannot allow that to happen.It would be as if one brought fire to a paradise valley, shattered a cavern of rare crystal... or blinded a painter.It is a choice that can be made by neither one of us.Do not be so quick to meet that which you do not understand. Use the time you have now, to grow, to train, and to strengthen yourself. {Firm, slight passion}I cannot - I will not. I would die first, and gladly, to preserve you, untouched, unharmed. Now that I have found you, I cannot sacrifice what I have found.You will meet my master. It is inevitable, I have... seen it. And when you stand before him, and realize what you face, you must be prepared. Until then, I must protect you, help you, until you are ready. There is a... a greatness in you, a greatness that does not stem from the Force. It stems from who you are. And if my Master does not understand you, cannot see you, then perhaps there is hope for us all. But if you seek to survive, then you must understand why this is so." Yes, she does state Exile could potentially defeat Nihilus when s/he is ready. She also suggests Nihilus could be defeated by Exile depending on one's interpretation of the sentence in bold. But her priority is to bring Exile to Nihilus in a state wherein Exile is either strong enough to defeat Nihilus or to be good feeding for Nihilus. So her intention at the begining of bringing Exile to Nihilous as being her priority is true. i felt, based on how she speaks throughout the rest of the game up until the point post the Jedi Masters' deaths, her goal behind bringing Exile to Nihilus was either to just do her job and bring him something of substance to eat, or to exploit Exile's unique Force wounding properties and through their confrontation, or by some other method thereafter, have Exile kill the Force. Since there are apparent contradictions in Visas' views, priorities, and how she feels about life, i tend to see as her being conflicted as she grows and learns to see some value in life for its own sake. But the whole point of all this is she is going to get Exile to Nihilus when she feels Exile is ready no matter what. In other conversations she states she hates all life and came to view life the same way Nihilus did when he made her see. In this paragraph, she states Exile is important to her for the potential Exile has by virtue of the unique quality s/he has of being a Force wound. It is Exile's nothingness she sees as precious, rare, and as having the ability to destroy everything. She is not willing to let that go to waste by Exile confronting Nihilus too soon. But the very line you put into bold type can be interpreted a different way: as her saying there is the chance Exile will be able to destroy the Force since Exile would have to defeat Nihilus in order to do so. The more Exile takes power from those Exile kills, the stronger Exile gets, the bigger the wound in the Force and the more devastating impact it will have on the galaxy. She sees all life as ugly and that it should all just die. In later conversations she tells Exile she came to see life as something abhorent when Nihilus forced her to look with her own eyes upon the devastation. So if that is her governing philosophy and world view, it is just as possible she sees hope not in stopping Nihilus, rather in what defeating Nihilus will add to Exile's destructive potential. But i will say, based solely on this conversation, it seems Visas does want Nihilus destroyed. [Jediphile] I had similar concerns playing the game, but it doesn't come to pass, so apparently Visas was sincere all along. But her priority was to get Exile to Nihilus when s/he was ready. Therefore i find it difficult to see how her loyalty to that cause could have been in doubt. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To bring that thing she felt to Nihilus. i think it wasn't until later, when she realized what Exile is, could she even fathom the notion Nihilus could be defeated. And i don't see that as callous. i see that as her severely traumatized and following her programming. [Jediphile] She talks of hope in the very first conversation you ever have with her. I don't see her as quite as traumatized as you do. Sure she has been through a lot, but Visas is a complex and strong person. She may have suffered under Nihilus, but she has also gained insight far beyond what her apparently young age would suggest. That's why she's able to take it all in stride. She does speak of there being "hope for us all" if Nihilus cannot see nor understand Exile. Which is exactly what happened on the Ravager when Nihilus tried to eat Exile. Nihilus got weakened because Nihilus did not understand Exile is a wound in the Force. Now the question is if that would be hope to her that Exile defeated the monster who was eating the energy released from killing Force sentives upon their deaths, or is it hope to her that Exile would then have siphoned Nihilous' powers too and would thus be even stronger and better able to destroy the Force, or hope in the sense of saving the galaxy? i'm not going to discuss trauma in this way anymore for now. i have to think on it and sort my feelings on it. [Jediphile] Atton never sees himself as worthy, Disciple submits completely to the Exile, and Brianna just loves the shadow of her dead father. Any of those healthy? See above for Mical. i'm am still not certain if Brianna seeing the similarity btween her father's and Exile's pain is her transfering her feelings for her father onto Exile. As for Atton, i can't agree with the simplified explanation of Atton not seeing himself as being worthy being the only reason he hasn't told Exile he loves her. But i'll have to respond to the whole Atton issue yet another time since i am getting too tired now. [Jediphile] No. I maintain that Visas is far more mature and strong than any of the alternate love interests. Ok. But i do wonder how you are qualifying maturity in this respect. [Jediphile] If she does not love Exile, then Exile just becomes a weapon she can use to fight Nihilus with. Does that make the plot better or worse? i do not agree with the assessment of if Visas doesn't love Exile than she is only using Exile as a weapon. Surely her and Exile could have developped a friendship in the interim regardless of what sex Exile is. [Jediphile] Atton was a torturer, not a warrior. And if it's just because of the bond, then why does only he "blank" out when he attacks. The others do it because they must stand together, but Atton seems to do it even against his own will. Atton was a soldier before he was trained as an assassin. Atton blanks out because of how he was trained to deal with such things and because of the conflicting feelings he has over it. The others do not stand together only because they must. Brianna had a very similar reaction to Atton wherein she states she is surprised she reacted as she did at attacking an innocent. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i have never seen Visas refuse combat. i can't see why she would since she hates all life and wants to put an end to the chaos of living things. We diverge on the concept of what Visas' goals are. i saw her initial goal to be to bring Exile to Nihilus. You saw her goal as destroying Nihilus. Visas' servitude seems quite apparent to me. After besting her in combat she is confused why Exile would let her live and she tells Exile (paraphrasing) "you are stronger than I. I have nothing to offer." That speaks to her state of mind of her being a servant who can see value in herself only in terms of what she can bring to the other. i also saw her sacrificing herself on the Ravager as being done for Exile and not to defeat Nihilus since she first questions if he is certain. When he states he is, she does so. When it is not offered as a suggestion, she does not offer herself up for them to kill Nihilus. [Jediphile] And that she doesn't offer herself tells me that she wants to go on living. But she is willing to accept death, if that is what it takes to defeat Nihilus. Visas doesn't hate life, she is just scared that there is no hope for it, and so she is reluctant to hold out hope for it. She is willing to accept death because Exile tells her to which is his, in essence, telling her he does not value her since Nihilus can be defeated without sacrificing Visas. She accepts this and thus commits suicide. The option he has to just walk away from her as she is lying dying emphasizes this. Visas clearly stated she did hate life. As she spends time with Exile and the others, her perspective changes. But the fact she is willing to kill herself eventhough she has come to see value in life indicates she is subserviant to male Exile to the extent of putting that servitude ahead of her own life. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton does not change who he is to suit what his idea of what Exile wants him to be. Atton remains true to himself throughout, eventhough he isn't sure who he is. It is not as if Atton has a sudden Exile induced epiphany and has become a pious celebate monk. He does change, but it is a part of his personal growth or regression depending on his alignment. Though that could be significantly different with the cut-content. They had to have Kreia force him into staying on with Exile to explain why he would stay, since he certainly would not have done so of his own volition, not even for female Exile. [Jediphile] He has a complete infiriority-complex towars the Exile throughout the game. He loves her, but hates himself far too much to ever reach out for her. And he doesn't love her as much as he loves the concept of redemption that she represents to him. Not a good basis. i can't see how Atton has an inferiority complex to Exile. He sees Jedi as scum. He says at least the Sith are honest. He even counted himself as Sith for a while and uses that as a comparisson to the difference he sees between them. He asks Exile how can s/he live with her/himself. Atton changes throughout the game. Either he reverts to his Sith tendencies and becomes a conscienceless monster (killing Mical because he thinks she likes Mical more), or he grows and becomes a better person who is capable of self-sacrifice and doing good for good's sake and not for a reward. Meanwhile, he faces many of his demons and gains internal strength and stability. Exile, on the other hand, is sitll in denial and still stuck in the same mess she was in to begin with. Atton outgrows Exile and he doesn't base his self-worth on if she loves him in return or not. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Mical bows once. On Dantooine. As a greeting. He bows to male Exile too. Mical in no way changes who he is nor how he views things, he openly disagrees with her about her exile, he teachers her meditation, and he explains things to her (about stuff she should know too... ), and tells her she is wrong. Mical is not weak and maleable, nor does he do nor say things to please her. He says what he thinks and feels and if she doesn't like it, so be it. [Jediphile] He still submits entirely to her will, and far more than Visas could ever hope to match, since he submits to the Exile directly, while Visas submits herself to a greater cause. Mical may disagree with the Exile on occasion, but he doesn't seem to have much personality or sense of self. How and when does he submit entirely to her will? And what does Visas' greater cause have to do with her restraining herself from slaughtering innocents in a cantina at Exile's command? The most i've seen him do is back off when she tells him to. But he certainly does defy her. He asks her for permission to watch the hololog of her exile, she can say no, but he does anyway. He disagrees with her on her take on her exile no matter how strongly she diverges in her opinion. His views don't change based on hers, he holds firm in his beliefs. She even loses influence with him if she says something insulting and if she puts down the Republic. His personality is constant throughout the game, his sense of self does not waver. i am at a loss to seeing how you see it so differently. [Jediphile] No, he doesn't. Bao-Dur is fine. Why does he need fire under him? If Bao-Dur can make it alone in his life, then more power to him. Because he lives by supressing his emotions as a constant. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i didn't see any sign at all that i can recall of Exile wanting to deal with her/his issues which is a reason i think something that isn't tragic nor includes killing is what Exile needs since s/he deals with those without it affecting her/him deeply. [Jediphile] I'm not sure I understand... Exile isn't moved by battle, bloodshed, stuff like that. As Exile can explain to Bao-Dur; battle is impersonal, s/he separates her/himself from the frenzy. Thus it would take something Exile cannot control and something that is unfamiliar and unsetling to shake Exile up and maybe be able to get Exile to start facing reality. [Jediphile]Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... [Jediphile] Visas is far more willing to disagree with the exile and criticize him/her than Atton, who is more of a confused person than a complicated one. Visas is complicated, but Atton is not, he "just" has a dark past that he cannot put behind him. i don't see that either. i see Atton voicing complaints and concerns. He tells Exile off when Exile goes DS. He complains about Exile's choices. He points out things he doesn't agree with. In what way is Visas more willing to criticize Exile than Atton is? Visas is indeed complicated, and so is Atton. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] It was Bao-Dur's hands that not only built the MSG, but also that activated it. When he speaks with Exile about the dream, he reveals he was the one to 'push the button' It was at Exile's command, but that act and its inception lie solely on Bao-Dur. He did not know, nor could he have forseen the impact that would have on the Force, nor that it created a DS power spot. [Jediphile] The MSG had no impact on the force. It's just a weapon, albeit a fairly nasty one. The impact on the force was the Exile's doing. Otherwise the whole point of the force wound becomes irrelevant to the story. The MSG was just the catalyst that made the exile cut himself off from the force and cause the wound. The power spot created on Malachor V required death and destruction on such a large scale it would wound the Force. Similar to how Telos created an echo as well. Only the scale of Malachor V's was larger since it destroyed the planet and was not limited to its surface. The Masters spoke of it, as did Mical, and Kreia. They also say Exile's rejecting the Force so absolutely caused Exile to become a wound in the Force as well. And only in Exile reconnecting to the Force, will it grow. As i have stated, there are alot of contradictions in the game about the Force wound thing, so i cannot guarantee this understanding is acurate. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] But intentions do not take away from reality. He is responsible for his creation and for its use. Exile is responsible for ordering its use and for rejecting the Force. [Jediphile] And yet Bao-Dur accepts responsibility for both, for the reasons I've already stated. No, he doesn't see himself as having given the order to use it. He keeps those facts distinct. It is only with the giving the order part that he doesn't assign responsibility where it lies; with Exile. Unless you were saying he accpets his responsibillities in which case we agree on that. And that goes back to the sacrosanct point. [Jediphile] Well, you already know that I see Exile and Nihilus as opposite sides of the same wound, so Visas seeing the "other" is not so unlikely to me. What i was getting at is she didn't see an inherent hope in Exile's wound. She saw the wound and then the potential of that wound being able to destroy the Force. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]i re-read the paragraph i wrote, and i must say, i am not sure why you are stating i said most of the Jedi died during the Exar Kun Wars, [Jediphile] You said, "they lost a huge slew of Jedi." That suggests rather a lot. Alot is different than most. "Huge slew" was redundant however. [Jediphile] For the life of me I cannot understand the logic here. Yes, I realise that Mical says it, but that still doesn't mean that it makes any sense. Revan's jedi were mostly *THE YOUNGER JEDI* We hear again and again of the older jedi losing their padawans to Revan's cause. THOSE ARE PADAWANS AND NOT TEACHERS. The only thing anyone has ever said to suggest that teachers left is Mical's one statement that nobody was left to teach him. I will take the repeated statements to the contrary of everyone else talking on the subject over just Mical's any day. Fine, do so. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]The older Jedi who did not leave had to pick-up the slack, and they most likely took on padawans for training, but there is still a hole in the heirarchy, and there are still missing teachers. Judging from what Mical recounted, he was supposed to become Exile's padawan. i don't know if those who left were thought to return so their intended padawans were left for them or not, but i do find it believable the dent put into the Order was enough to hinder the making younglings into padawans process. [Jediphile] How so? The older jedi and masters lost the majority of their padawans, while the younglings lost some teachers. The only logical conclusion I can reach from following that is that there were more teachers than needed. Where did it state the majority of the older Jedi and Jedi Masters lost their padawans? When i think of it in terms of population pyramids, there is the smaller number of Masters at the top. The population base increases as the age of the Jedi decreases. The majority of the population per sector would be at the bottom with younglings since many are not accepted to further their training past the youngling or apprentice stage. Now the Exar Kun War drastically decreased the Jedi numbers. So it took some years to build-up the Jedi numbers since those who were left over are the ones who had to go about recruiting, training, and becoming Masters to the new younglins. Those who were the second and third (depending on how it is counted. i am doing so based on from the time of youngling to Jedi able to train younglings) generations leave to go to the Mandalorian Wars. So there is a hole in the pyramid where those, such as Exile, who would teach the next generation are depleted. Yes, the older Jedi did lose some padawans, but i think number wise, there would be more younglings left without teachers than there were Masters without padawans. Also, i have trouble believing padawans who were not yet ready for their trials would have been too likely to go off to war. They wouldn't seem to be proficient enough as not-even-Jedi to be out there fighting wars. It is sorta like cadets fighting along side soldiers. At least that is my understanding of it. [Jediphile] And I'm not allowed to question that factor? I didn't even take it out of context, you know... Question away. i find that to be a rather cheeky question though since you in your last post use the personal tie argument to support Atris vs Sion. i was reacting to the acusation i did not see worth in the characters who did not have such ties rather than to questioning the worth of the personal ties factor. i stated myself it is a dubious point for one to be considered more significant on that basis alone, although personal ties are significant.

*** Scathing sarcasm alert! ... Warning! Warning! Rhetoric flailling wildly!! *** I am so sick of this malarky. WTF, dude? Did you actually read with your eyes open, or did you like, use the Force? Take what i said in context. Anyone could clip a quote and then apply it wrongly and claim it to mean something it doesn't. i suggest you re-read, if you actually read it at all, what i wrote. i am so friken' tired of having to restate what i have already said and having to re-explain my intent when i have already done so before. Changing the context of what an issue is while it is being debated, messes it up. This whole thing began with claims female Exile gets less relationships than male, that the story makes less sense with female Exile and yadda, yadda, ya. i have already made it clear if Bao-Dur isn't counted, than they are equal in terms of number. Honest. It is right there in the post you conveniently didn't take in context and used that to misrepresent what i was saying. But i guess i shouldn't be surprised by that since it is how victories are won... Funny how that same argument wherein neiter makes a proper love interest then is reduced to it being absurd for female Exile alone. How can i counter such bias? WTF can i say that will carry enough meaning so it will be taken in context and seriously? Here is the best i can do since i am not a smart person who obviously cannot articulate a point well enough for it to be understood: "so is using Atris as a reason to make Exile cannon male. That is the whole point. The unequal applying of what makes a good character and story vs what doesn't." Is that good enough? Are you convinced? Were you somehow moved by what i said? Does what i write even matter? Ich bin ein Berliner! What can i say to that? Atris finding male Exile attractive is more believable and deeper than Sion's lust. Ok then. Sure, WTF not? How about i help you out by adding Atris is hot and Sion is all gross. Atris FTW! Re-read the post. Then read it again. Read it a third time, then tell me if you still think i was saying what you are implying. i so love how it is argued the male romantic interests are simple and not really significant but the female love interests are so fraking deep and make such better storylines and characters. We all know that MUST be true because we all know in literature, film, hell everywhere in popular culture, women are portrayed as strong and healthy individuals who aren't in the least subservient to males, nor do they do idiotic and humiliating things just to please men such as, oh, i don't know, try to spar in a low cut thong say. Oh, pardon me. Substitute "thong" for "impractical sparing gear". How could i have been such a f*cking idiot to have seen the females in the game in that light? This is SW, afterall, where it isn't as humiliating to be put into a slave-girl outfit as it is letting oneself be captured by Ewoks since being made a slave and paraded as a sex object is so empowering. i only wish all the females i knew were given such a confidence boosting experience at least once so they would benefit from the inner stregth and joy it would bring them. Of course the Visas-Exile romance is the best. What the hell have i been thinking this whole time? And it really was such an in-fraken-credible twist. Visas falling for the guy who is responsible for making the Force wound that created Nihilus who destroyed all life on her homeworld. But why the bloody hell not? She's a right tough lass who can bounce right back from such a trivial thing. It not only makes sense she isn't subservient to Exile when she says "my life for yours", it is imperitave she means it in the "I'm gonna use you to kill Nihilus" way. Again, i don't see how i could have missed such an obvious thing; Visas and Exile romance being the best. So, i officially rescind my position and state that indeed, male Exile not only should be cannon, but that every post of mine stating otherwishe should be deleted by the moderators since i was spreading false information to the masses. And let's face it, they are so bloody long too. i can only wish my previous disagreements haven't permanently damaged anyone, and that the horror of having read them will lessen with time. So i bid you all, adieu. [Exuent stage left] ***Downgrade Sarcasm Alert Status to Nominal. Sarcasm threat has been neutralized through venting**** Regular posting resumes: [Dhampyre,May 18 2006, 03:12 PM] Oh lord!! I leave for a week and i find the very reason i decided to join this forum and create this topic to be the hot discussion. Ok folks, i am jumping back into this pool. Welcome back. It is good to see the original topic poster participating again. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Usually i'd be inclined to agree about the love happens without a reason thing. Love is love, it just happens. End of story. But i felt just as lost about it with Atris as i did with Sion over the why. There was nothing personal about it in the least. Not one little memory, not one comment refering to it in anyway... To me, it felt thrown in there with the purpose of adding 'a hot Jedi chick' to the list of women who lust after male Exile. [Dhampyre] What the hell is with this Sion/Atris BS? Neither are proper Love interests in the game. Sure they both show some romantic feelings to the exile (sion if female, atris if male) but using that as an arguement to make the exile female is quite absurd. i think they count as love interests because they are seen as having feelings for the protagonist. Without getting hung up on the details, since they are important figures in the story, how they feel matters. [Dhampyre] Having said that Atris's reason for finding the exile attractive is more convincing and more believable, her background story for romance with the exile is deeper. Whereas on Sion's part its pretty much lust and nothing more. She doesn't give any reason at all why she is attracted to Exile, nor does she state what she sees in him. Sion does tell Exile what he sees in her. How that makes Atris' love deeper, i don't know. i also completely disagree Sion's feelings for Exile are lust. i haven't a clue how you came to see it that way, Dhampyre. Would you mind elaborating? [Dhampyre] Ohh and Hekate, Pardon me for being away for so long but i just have to bring this up since i never got to answer you. No problemo. You don't owe me an appology for that, but it is nice of you so, thank you [Dhampyre] female exile 4 : male exile 2?? Thats the romantic relathionships counted??? Dude? wtf?? Female Exile has Disciple and Atton (sort of its not really love, more like infatuation with Atton). Thats 2!! Count em 2!! Are you adding Sion and Bao-Dur?? wtf? If you are adding Sion, Then we can Add Atris for Male exile.....and Bao Dur?? There isn't even a hint of romance there. So as it seems if you choose to add Sion/Atris to the list, its 3-3 each for male/female. Disciple, Atton and Sion (if you insist on bringing him in) Visas, Handmaiden and Atris (same as above). As i stated in my sacrastic venting portion of my post, i think if you re-read where i originally posted those ideas and in the post to follow, i explained the tabulation system and the count. i don't know how to do links and such, i really am not on friendly terms with computers in the least, so i'll tell you they are posts #37 http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...ic=41617&st=30# and #42 http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...ic=41617&st=30#. i don't know how to link up to the direct quote. [Dhampyre] Although with Bao-Dur we do get the problem of misunderstanding their relationship. Exile-Bao-Dur have a strict old war buddies relationship, and Bao-Dur looking up to the exile if the exile is female can be confused for romance which IT IS NOT. i explicitly stated i had read Bao-Dur was originally supposed to be a romantic option for female Exile but in the released game he was not, nor does it appear to be in the cut content. That if one does count him as an option if one is to look at the cannon in the big picture (ie just because it was cut from the game doesn't mean it has to be excluded from further works), than it makes 4, if one doesn't, they both have 3 a piece. [Dhampyre] Look at those two lists and the relationships. The male exile relationships are more detailed, have better stories and Visas-Exile is the best romantic twist in all of KoTOR II period. i assume you didn't read all of the posts Jediphile, Darth Blivion, Xard, Krookie, Shadow Paladin, Kinokono, DAWUSS, galassia, HK-47_THE_MEATBAG_KILLER, Whootidoo, and i posted since that is alot of material to cover, but it does contain debate on the topic of the Visas-Exile romance which may alter how it is viewed if read. So i'll say there are reasons why that romance in particular may not be the best romance in KotOR II. If you have read them and hold to that view than i request you share more details on why, if you are so inclined. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]It seems Sion was supposed to be alot more important in the game, all the antagonists actually, and Sion vs Atton was supposed to be a major event in female Exile's game. That battle wouldn't be as meaningful if it is just Atton who loves her as opposed to both Atton and Sion loving her (not saying Atton sacrificing himself isn't meaningful, it is. i just meant the battle itself). The only difference between Atris and Sion, when dealing with their respective loves, is the dialogue is a bit altered. There aren't any extra cut-scenes as there is with Atton (asking Boa-Dur about Exile), which could mean both were thrown in, or poorly cut out. [Dhampyre] Again Hekate you are being selective in what you say and what you leave out. KoTOR II was rushed because Lucasarts wanted it released when Episode III came out to boost sales. So alot of content was cut. The content you mentioned was for the female exile. The cut content for the male exile had a similar battle take place originally between Atris and Handmaiden. Infact Atris was given a much bigger role than Sion since there was the possibility of her to become "Darth Traya" instead of Kreia (Depending on how we played the game). So don't pull that on us. First, the Atris-Brianna fight was left in the game and i even made reference to it to lend weight to the Atris-Exile romance argument in earlier posts (#37 i believe). Second, whaddaya mean "don't pull that on us"? What i wrote about the Sion & Atton fight on Malachor V was to defend my position about Sion's merrit. It isn't exactly fair to expect me to add stuff about Atris when i am trying to explain something about Sion. You don't add info on how Atton's romance option is good when you speak of Visas' romance, nor do you speak of Mical's merrits when you are depicting Brianna's, do you? *Hekate is unhappy * [Dhampyre] Hekate you are taking trivial matters and using them as arguements for the exile to be female. "Sion loves female exile so exile should be female, "atton could have died in the game at the hands of sion if the female exile loved them". All i hear is "could have" and "if the exile is female". Now i am miffed. These trivial matters are spoken of across the board, or are you suggesting my points are trivial while the points of those who disagree with me are significant? When speaking of Sion, Atton, fill in the blank, it is to explain my views and positions which had been called into question. i really do not understand why there is such a discrepancy in the assigned value of what points i am making vs the points others are making. [Dhampyre] The simple fact is people who played KoTOR II for the first time with a female exile prefer the female exile because thats what left the first impression AND People who played KoTOR II for the first time with a Male exile Prefer the Male Exile. That could be so. It wasn't for me, but that is just me. [Dhampyre] I think the current poll results also speak for themselves. Within their own context, they do. i haven't voted. [Dhampyre] Anyway, back me up here guys? *joke* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! *end joke* [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. [Jediphile,May 18 2006, 01:41 PM] I'm going to agree with Darth Blivion on this one. Visas does not submit to the Exile. She submits to the greater cause. It is not the same. If she were submissive to the Exile, then she would do whatever s/he tells her to and always agree with the Exile's decision, and we know that is definitely not the case. On the contrary, Visas openly criticises the Exile for taking risks and flatly refuses to wear the thong that you hate so much or even to lead the Exile to Nihilus before she thinks the Exile is ready for that confrontation. Refusal is not an indication of submissive behaviour. Why is it that if Visas is subserviant to Exile, she has to do everything s/he tells her to? In other relationships that are unequal by their nature (ie parent and child or boss and employee), the one who is in the subserviant role does not always have to do everything requested of them, but there is still that inherent inequality in their "rank". Visas, who hates all life and wants to see it end, will not do unecessary things for the mere amusement of a Hutt. i see the reasoning for her refusal. She sees no worth in Vogga's existence, so doing such for his benefit is not something she would even consider. Exile doesn't order her to, and even if s/he did, i still can't see why that would be reason enough for her to dismiss her contempt for such things. The misson was to get at Vogga's horde. It had nothing to do with defeating Nihilus. And, Visas has plenty of submissive behaviours, those certainly should be considered along with the refusal. Using Visas not telling Exile where Nihilus is as a point to prove her refusing Exile seems a bit lacking since she herself tells Exile she doesn't know how to find him. He finds her. [Jediphile] Always easy to take the moral high ground when you have nothing to lose, isn't it Or as Martok (from DS9) would say, "war is much more fun when you're winning" :cool: And here i thought we were to "You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form". And congratulations on your victory, have a cigar. [Jediphile] Yes and no. The Exile might no longer care for Atris given how she has treated him, and there are good reasons why he would feel that way. Besides, if he likes Brianna, then he would not be off to a good start by admitting to having feelings for Atris. Brianna: "you did not have feelings for her... did you?" Exile: whatever incarnation of "no" If he did, that would be a lie. Generally, honesty would be the best way to begin a relationship, i would think [Jediphile] That's always the problem with these things. We have no choice but to look at what is said, because that is our only frame of reference, but we sometimes forget that just because a character says it does not make it true. I believe that about Mical's claim that there were no one left to teach him after the Exile left, for example *sigh* [Jediphile] The consequence of what you say here is that any and all discussion becomes pointless, because Jedi cannot be compared to normal people, and since jedi do not exist in real life, we can't compare them to anything. I don't agree with that. Not that I like analogies, but beggers can't be choosers... No, that is not what i am saying. i meant here there is no match for Jedi since we don't have the ability to use Force powers and such. Certainly one could draw comparissons between Jedi and holy warriors of whatever religion/culture/etc.. One may even compare non-holy warriors such as Samurai with their bushido code. i meant as accepted pillars of light and goodness since in our understanding of reality, there is no generally cross-cultural accepted notion of what virtuous warriors would be as Jedi are in the SW universe. i specifically objected to the Reagan comparisson because, well, it's Reagan, but also because of the dubious nature of politicians and that in the accepted goodness category, it is lacking. [Jediphile] That's not the same at all. I can point specifically to why I admire Ghandi. I cannot do that for the Exile. Indeed, the Exile seems to have only failed in his past, and generally been an average student (according to Vandar and Vrook), so that just begs even more for clarification of Atris' admiration. i hardly consider being granted Jedihood and being allowed to teach padawans a failure. i do not recall anything in the game to signify Exile was a failure. Being an average student means just that: average. Not below average, not lacking, s/he was just not above average nor exceptional other than in her/his ability to create exceptionally potent Force bonds. Which on its own is quite something. Perhaps it is the very fact this average student has such a gift is what Atris admires. i don't know. But i also don't know a reason why Exile should be precluded from being worthy of being seen as heroic in Atris' eyes. We know very little of Atris, other than she is obsessive, she fell to the DS, was a Jedi Master, and is manipulated by Kreia. We have no means to measure what she values, what moves her, nor why. Same goes for Exile. We barely know anything about her/him, and we certainly know little of her/his past. Therefore, i see no reason why Atris' feelings cannot be accepted as presented, be they hero worship and/or love. [Jediphile] That people apparently have a low opinion of the Exile based on her past does not exactly lend support to Atris' admiration for the female Exile. On the contrary, it calls it into question even more. And that is why I maintain that it hurts the story, when we don't get the details about the basis of that admiration. Vrook has a low opinion of Exile. Master Kavar did not, nor did Masters Zez-Kai Ell, Vandar, and Atris. [Jediphile] That's due to presumed qualities people expect that person to have. Try having the same athlete kill his wife, make extreme political statements, or molest children, then see if there is any admiration left for his athletic abilities. And back to Exile, how does what you said apply? Exile most certainly did not perform such heinous acts before joining the Mandalorian Wars. [Jediphile] Besides, if I were really evil, I would now say that since you said jedi are not ordinary people, when I made an analogy to Reagan, I now get to apply the standard and dismiss the comparison. It's a good thing I'm not evil, isn't it... i am lost. i don't follow your reasoning here. Could you please clarify? (Not being sacastic) [Jediphile] That would require that this is common knowledge, which I doubt. Besides, jedi are not glory-hounds who want to be rich and famous. They're more like monks. So even if you were right and normal people might admire someone for an innate ability (and that's not an admission, since I still doubt it), I don't think the same would be true among the jedi themselves, since it is unreasonable to admire someone for something that he or she did not make an active effort to achieve. That would be like saying that I admire Ghandi's children for who their father was. No, it would be like saying you admire Ghandi for his intelect. Something he naturally possesses and cannot be altered through working on it. And the very fact Vrook and Vandar speak about Exile's abilities in the holorecording proves it was common knowledge to the Masters at the very least. Add to that the fact the Jedi seem to tend to know everything like that about eachother, it would only make sense for Atris to be aware of it as well. [Jediphile] When did Atris become a "hot jedi chick"? She's an ice-queen! She could give the witch in the Narnia movie lessons in how to be frigid and aloof! i used "hot" in the slang definition meaning: attractive, sexy, good looking... Not "hot" as in passionate, warm, friendly.... [Jediphile] Atris is blame-shifting. No doubt about that. And she does it in either case. As Kreia tells her, "you betrayed yourself, don't blame the Exile." But let's not forget those Sith holocrons. I doubt they helped matters any... Sure, Atris should have known better and controlled her emotions better, but she is like Denethor in Lord of the Rings (the novel, not the film), who has been secretly using the palantir and slowly been eroded by its corrupting effect. The sith holocrons have done the same with Atris - they have twisted all her unresolved emotions into something perverse and overpowering, and the relationship with the Exile is a particularly unclosed subject to exploit for them. Be that as it may, the Sith holocrons affect Atris' hero worship as well. [Jediphile] Like who? It's not as if there is a great list to choose from... Good point. :"> [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]One would assume if they wanted to have the player feel something for the villain, the dev would have chosen to follow popular culture standards therefore Sion would have had to be more like *shudder in fear* Mical. i find it difficult to see they thought female players (whose interest i assume you are refering to by the evening out the "score" in the love interest of a villain category) would find Sion's feelings for female Exile appealing as a whole. Just look, they came up with Mical. i don't think they gave a hoot about making things even like that. [Jediphile] If you feel that way, then I fail to see why you're objecting to my criticism of Mical and Sion as love interests... Because i don't view things in the popular culture way nor, i would assume, do many male and female gamers. Sion didn't repulse me. But from a stereotypical view point, which i assume the devs were using since they did come up with Mical's way of speaking, i find it difficult to believe they would have cared about there being balance nor thought Sion would be a typical archetypical character female gamers would be able to see as appealing. i was explaining why i did not believe the devs threw the female Exile-Sion romance in at the last minute. [Jediphile] So Atris is also poorly done? *joke commences* Would i be flogged if i answered with a "yes"? *joke ends* The fact is all the romances were poorly done. None of them, ironically other than Sion's, had any resolution to them wherein Exile was able to say anything about her/his feelings for the NPC. [Jediphile] You can say it, but it still made no sense to me. Besides, what does that mean "you've been a presence in my mind"? Given that Sion has been hunting the Exile all through the plot, of course he has been a presence - you're constantly scared that he'll track you down and kill you, after all. It's a completely redundant comment to make, if you look at it in that context. She didn't say "you have been on my mind", she says "you have been a presence in my mind". The implication is they felt eachother's presences, essences if you will, in eachother's psyches kinda as if they are Force bonded, especially since Sion had just spoken of how she, her presence, is something he feels inside himself. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. [Jediphile] Only the player can tell whether this is true, and I never believed that the Exile could have true emotions for Sion or that Sion was still capable of them himself. He's just a dark, twisted being longing back to something he remembers from his life and which is now lost. That's not true love, only the shadow of it. And I cannot believe that the Exile can love a being a dark as Sion is, because if she is DS, then she won't care - there is no true love among the Sith - and if she is LS, then all the evil things he does will scare her off to such an extent that no true emotions will ever grow to the surface. So it's all doomed either way. i don't see how there can be any doubt about my previous statement. Someone Exile thinks about and has feelings for is more important to Exile than a person Exile does not think about nor have feelings for. That is pretty much a universal truth, i would think. i find difficulty in seeing consistency in what you have said. Just being DS does not make a person incapable of feeling love. Yuthura spoke of that in KotOR. Anakin felt love for Padme even when he was DS. And Exile herself has done evil things so why should Sion's evil things remove the possibility she could love him? You yourself said love just happens. There need not be a reason for it. As far as Sion's emotions go, i cannot see why he isn't allowed his humanity just as every other character other than Nihilus (to an extent) is. He is the embodiment of pain. Those are very strong physical and emotional feelings. Sion to me seems quite aware of his predicament of being caught in Kreia's web and of his emotions surrounding that. He is conflicted, but not feelingless. He is said to be in constant pain, yet he endures through his willpower. He seems intuned with his inner conflicts and what those evoke in him. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM]Why more meaningful depending on how the Atton-Sion fight goes? Because if she loves Atton, he gets killed. [Jediphile] The Atton-Sion fight was cut. And in any event, I seem to recall that Atton is player-controlled during that fight and that he can win it, which also makes your point moot. i did not know Atton could be player controlled. If he is then basically he has to win since if he doesn't the game goes to the "game over" screne since every party member dies. i don't understand how they could have his being mutilated then killed by Sion part in there since he would have to win... *confusion* [Hekate] If she loves Sion, then he kills her companion. If she loves both of them, than she has feelings for someone who just killed someone she had feelings for too. If she loves neither of them, than their feelings hold their own worth and it is a powerful image since both did things for her she will never care about. All in all, significant i say. [Jediphile] I don't follow. But that might be because I just don't believe in the Sion-Exile "relationship". What i am saying is regardless of the outcome and of whom Exile loves, if any, Atton and Sion facing off is significant because of how they feel about Exile, what their characters represent to the story, and for their own vlaues as NPCs. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] We were speaking of the significance of Sion's death and how it pertained specifically to the romace plot with Exile. You're saying "So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all." is why i tried to explain why Sion's death held impact and his caring for female Exile mattered to the game. If he died just because he had had enough and he realized he could never live-up to what Kreia saw in Exile, than his death came about from just that. On the other hand, if he died because he realized he was wrong and that his caring for Exile is stronger than his need to stay alive, than that is important. Exile had a direct impact on his death either way. The distinction lies in Sion's motivation of either giving up, or on letting go. And his letting go carries other meanings as i have pointed out in earlier posts. [Jediphile] Ah, but then you're doing with Sion precisely what you won't let me do for Atris - assigning different value to the relationship even though the outcome is the same in either event. If you're allowed to assign a deeper interpretation to the outcome of the confrontation with Sion, because you see romance in it that are not there for the male Exile, then is it not just as reasonable to assign a similarly deeper aspect to the male Exile's relationship with Atris, when we know that she loved him? Sion must be persuaded to die regardless of the Exile's gender - there is ultimately no difference. If you assign a different interpretation to Sion's death for the female Exile, then I'm just as justified in doing something similar for Atris in the male Exile's story. i don't think i evaluated them with a bias and differential. i hadn't questioned what significance lies in Atris' confrontation with male Exile if she loves him. i can clearly see the importance therein. What i was questioning is the asumption Sion's feelings for Exile are not as significant as Atris' feelings for Exile. And in exploring the differences between them, i stated Atris doesn't actually say she has feelings for him. Sion does actually say he has feelings for Exile. i didn't refute the fact Atris falls to the DS. What i refuted is attributing her loving male Exile to that fall since, as Sion has to die either way, so did Atris fall to the DS either way. [Jediphile] I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] He certainly makes it more clear than Atris does, [Jediphile] Of course he does. Atris is doing everything she can to hide her true feelings, whereas Sion longs openly for feelings that he as lost in his now undead state. That's not a relevant basis of comparison. So what i am hearing is: Atris is doing everything to hide her feelings so the game doesn't suffer from her not speaking of them and the player has no clear means of knowing she loves male Exile without going into the text file in the game data to see the notes therein that state she does not want Brianna to think/know she loves Exile, but Sion speaking of his feelings directly in-game hurts the game because it is difficult to see how he could have come to love her. i don't see Sion as undead, i see him as immortal as long as he doesn't lose his will to live. And i cannot concur with the assesment Sion does not have feelings. [Jediphile] Unlike Sion who tries to kill the Exile everytime they meet? What difference does that make to the fact Atris, who is supposed to have loved Exile for at least 10 years, decides she is going to kill him? Sion, as we are later told, has personal reasons for wanting to kill Exile. The two motivations and the proceeding understanding of their behaviour are significantly different. [Jediphile]Atris is DS. She does not need to kill the Exile to meet some silly Sith standard. Kreia manipulated her to do it, sure, but is Kreia Atris' master now? I think not. Atris sees herself as the master and continues to - there is no ritual involved. i was thinking more along the lines of when Bastial tells Revan on the Star Forge Malak knew she had to kill him in order for her to completely give herself over to the DS and let go of her past and all that. i felt Atris wanting to kill Exile would have likely stemmed from a similar inclination. [Jediphile] As for Sion, he has to die in just the same way regardless of your gender, so that is a non-factor, even if you did believe him to be sincere about his feelings, which I don't. Sion having to die is part of the plot. i don't see how that hurts the romance plot. In the argument against using a character's personal historical ties to Exile as a comparisson point you say if all characters had to have a tie to Exile than it would be boring and so on (which i agree with). So i am applying the same logic here that if all those whom Exile could romance have to survive for them to be meaningful is reducing the plot options and forcing their characters to be something they shouldn't be. Sion has to die because; with male Exile, he is an enemy to be defeated and the player never gets to see his other qualities so there is little else to see in him; with female Exile, Sion's depth get revealed and since the very nature of his existence depends on his using the Force and his willpower to remain alive, Exile getting him to let go of all of his pain makes him die. [Jediphile] It's like you're saying that the outcome is the same in Atris' case, so it's irrelevant, but it's not for Sion because you assign a value to the relationship even though you have to defeat in just the same way. Sorry, but that sounds like a double standard to me. i said if Sion having to die either way nullifies his worth, than Atris' worth should be nullified too since her outcome does not diverge based on Exile's sex. i was defending Sion and saying the dismissing must occur for both since the criteria was Sion dies regardless of Exile's sex therefore his love role is insignificant. i argued there is no difference in how Atris' fate turns out either regardless of Exile's sex. i don't like how i was in the position of defending my position and that then gets turned around to be seen as if i was the one who had originated that line of questioning. It feels acusatory and dismissive. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] Atton only sacrifices himself for female Exile so of course it has bearing on his importance. Or did i completely misunderstand what you were saying? [Jediphile] Brianna only challenges her sisters and Atris for the male Exile, so that's not particularly compelling argument for the female Exile's story. Indeed, I find Brianna's confrontation far more compelling, because it both resolves her alleged betrayal to her sisters and Atris as well as settling the feelings both she and Atris have for the male Exile, which is significant because of Atris' direct tie to the Exile's past. That duality is not there in Atton's fight with Sion, since Sion is a stranger to the Exile. Nor is it more compelling Brianna only challenges her sisters and Atris only with male Exile. That is the whole point of the romance differences in game. With male Exile the player gets to see more details about Brianna, the player gets to hear extra lines about Atris, and the players gets to see Visas falls for Exile. With female Exile, the player gets to find out Sion is more than just baddie #2, the player gets to learn more about Mical and all he brings, and the player gets to learn more of Atton. And you are right that a direct tie to Exile's past is significant. So are you now rescinding on your earlier dislike of using that as a comparisson basis? [Jediphile] The difference is that Atris' feelings have had the time to become twisted and perverse, whereas Sion's have not. Therefore he should logically be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are, and yet he tries to kill the Exile at every turn. He is newly in love, which should make him want to embrace the Exile, only he doesn't. Atris' love, however, has been twisted into something perverse for a decade, making it far more believable that it no longer manifests itself in the way that it logically should. The argument Sion himself is incapable of having feelings would make this new point impossible. He cannot both be someone who is not capable of feeling and someone who logically should be more sincere to himself about what his feelings are. We don't know if Sion and Exile have a history or not. Exile can't even remember the face of the guy who was supposed to be her/his padawan, nor the face of the guy who made the MSG and activated it eventhough Exile was looking right at Bao-Dur as s/he gave the activation order. While it can be asumed they do not have a tie since it isn't mentioned thus by default it would suggest it isn't there, since there is so much cut content, it is a possibility they may have had a backstory. Even with ignoring that possibility though, the notion Sion's feelings had not had time to become twisted and perverse seems rather weak since Sion's perspectives and perceptions are themselves twisted, thus his feelings for Exile would naturally begin twisted and perverse. For Sion, who is ruled by pain and torment, being embraced and accepted would end him since his focus would be lost which = death, which is exactly what happens if female Exile reciprocates interest. It would make sense he has to fight his feelings for her, and even try to kill her, not just because of his duty to Kreia, but also out of self-preservation. He isn't suicidal. He wants to live and to have his life have meaning, as Zelean, Meelypie, and i were discussing in another thread <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [Hekate] He explains he would rather she die than lose to Kreia and have her become broken as he was. He asked her to leave rather than go to Kreia; however; female Exile did not have that option so she had to participate in Sion's death since by his very nature, the consequence for him to accept he was wrong about the views he held, was death. Atris doesn't tell male Exile her feelings. Male Exile doesn't get the dialogue option to even aknowlege her feelings nor to suggest his own. [Jediphile] Wrong. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." You cannot admit that Atris loved the male Exile but merely admired the female without reading that sentence in a different light. It may have been the same for both male and female Exile, I'm not sure, but it's inescapable that it does not carry the same interpretation for the male Exile that it did for the female. And obviously there is a great difference, since you can choose to let Atris live (and actually will with the above), whereas Sion must die in any event. It is the same line regardless of Exile's sex. Atris reacts the same way to Exile's statement regardless of Exile's sex. i still can't understand how if Atris' feelings for male Exile are only given voice by Atris in a cut-scene that did not include Exile, and as you pointed out she is trying to deny her feelings for him and intentionally not admitting them, than how could male Exile know she loves him? If he doesn't, that dialogue option cannot mean more for male Exile than for female Exile. And even if it can be argued he knew and he is refering to her loving him, that is quite plainly a reaction on his part that indicates he does not feel the same way for her. It is dismissive. Thus, there is no opportunity for Exile to reciprocate those feelings which means Sion's feelings can be responded to in kind by female Exile while Atris' cannot by male Exile. Even with this, it is still insisted on Sion's feelings are meaningless and irrelevant which i cannot understand when he is the only person in the whole game any incarnation of Exile can respond to in kind without Exile being passively neutral nor outright dismissive. That is significant. [Jediphile] Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) [Jediphile] Considering that Mical never became the Exile's apprentice, that does not seem to be a valid conclusion. That it didn't happen is no basis for concluding that it cannot have been a problem. I can just as well conclude that they didn't deal with it simply because the problem never arose in the first place and so they never became aware of it. By the same token, dismissing Mical for having those feelings on the basis he was to be her padawan is then voided as well since it didn't happen and thus has no bearing on the conversation. [Hekate] Vash said (paraphrasing) "We do not cast blame, we take responsibility Atris" which to me indicates she, at least, sees a problem with the severity of Atris' feelings. [Jediphile] That's a comment aimed at Atris dismissing the Exile's wound as a thing of the dark side out of hand, not of her emotions towards the Exile. Probably, but it never became relevant, since the Exile was, well, exiled and left. And besides, maybe Atris was good at hiding her emotions from them. Or they could have decided to let her deal with it on her own as a test of her character and only intervene if she began losing control. i just replayed that scene and Atris had just said "We are not the ones who taught her/him" to which Vash responded. Atris was speaking of herself not being to blame for Exile going to war against the Council's decree. Later in that conversation, as Atris is going on about Exile rather passionately, Zez-Kai Ell says "What would you have done with her/him Atris? Be mindful of your feelings..." which means he saw and/or felt Atris' feelings for Exile were too strong. Hence my point the Masters were aware she felt that strongly thus their not dealing with Atris' feelings makes for a disturbing plot hole. It is obvious Atris wasn't good at hiding her feelings as both Masters Vash and Zez-Kai Ell pointed out. [Jediphile] They would need for Atris to acknowledge the problem herself, first. You cannot help someone unless they first accept that they have a problem. Besides, this is just another example of the very arrogance that the masters have been guilty off at this time. They think everyone else is flawed, and that they are themselves - including Atris - infallible. There are such things as interventions. If a person isn't aware s/he is doing something wrong, than it needs to be brought to her/his attention. Just assuming Atris will figure it out is too dangerous for the Council to do. They may very well be arrogant, but they do not seem to have difficulty pointing out eachothers' flaws and weaknesses. [Jediphile] First of all, I still don't see why Revan was *obviously* DS during that meeting. My Revan was fairly close to LS mastery at that point, actually. Ok, i have to make it even more clear. Just as your Revan in that particular game you played was LS and near mastery, so a DS Revan in any other given game with near DS mastery would have been obviously DS to the Council. i was not saying Revan her/himself has to be a set DS alignment. [Jediphile] Anyway, the masters did explain it. 1. Sending a master along would be a beacon that Malak could track. They did not send one, because Bastila and Revan then had a better chance of slipping under the radar, while Malak was busy with all the more powerful jedi. And no, it's not easy to hide your presence, when you're a very powerful jedi. Yoda hid on Dagobah, because the cave where the dark side was strong (where Luke had his vision-battle with Vader) shielded his presence there. Apparently Sith are better at this, since Palpatine could hide under the nose of the order. Then again, they had no idea to look for him... i find that so very difficult to believe. A Jedi Master, or even a plain Jedi accompanying them should not have made them significantly easier to find. We're not talking about Yoda. We're talking about someone with experience and enough wisdom and stability whose job it is to keep Bastila from losing herself and to help Revan avoid falling to the DS. [Jediphile] 2. They send Bastila along, because she shared Revan's visions, and so if Revan was untrustworthy, they would at least still get the clues to where the starmaps were located and at least have a chance of finding the starforge that way. Obviously that concern must have outweighed the value of Bastila's battle meditation. My issue with it wasn't over Bastila being sent. They made it pretty clear in the game they had to be together. [Jediphile] It's in his past so obviously it stays with him. He has to deal with it continually, since the alternative is to suppress it. And the Exile's presence has probably opened the wound a bit. But he does not have a problem dealing with it, and seems to come to the Exile mostly because he knows s/he probably feels the same way. My point was it isn't something he has fully come to terms with nor dealt with. It does haunt him still, and by how he has changed from being an emotionally driven person to an emotion supressing person is how he simplifies. And i counter with he does have problems dealing with it. He dreams of it often, he thinks of it often, and it is the main issue surrounding his Jedification and what he speaks with Exile about. [Hekate] Exile listening in on the crew's thoughts hears Bao-Dur's echo "Malachor V". When he speaks with Exile about his being affected by her/him during the Jedification, he tells Exile he blames himself for both building the MSG, and for activating it. Exile counters, yet still Bao-Dur tells Exile he cannot see it that way. He tells Exile he may have to see himself as responsible, and through that, he attempts to atone. The fact he says it is something he might have to see that way indicates he is aware that he doesn't have to because there are other ways of looking at it, as Exile pointed out, but he also can see he needs to for his psychological and emotional stability. He can see what would happen to him if he let himself let go of that, as well as what is by refusing to let go of it. Bao-Dur knows himself quite well, but he is still very much at odds with himself. [Jediphile] I don't see him being at odds with himself. He is quite open about where he stands here and what sort of responsibility he takes for his past. Being at odds with himself roots in his denial over Exile's responsibility for the events on Malachor V, and with his having to supress his emotions in order to maintain his veneer of calm. And as i stated in the above paragraph, he knows things logically he cannot come to accept emotionally. Thus he is at odds with himself. [Jediphile] Because that would make his own guilt pointless. Bao-Dur must accept that responsibility, because that is the only way his choices have lasting meaning. The alternative is that his actions had no significance, and that if he had not build the MSG, then someone else would have built it or something similar. He accepts responsibility, because it gives him control over the situation in the sense that all those terrible things would not have happened, if only he had made a different choice himself. How would his accepting Exile gave the order and thus carries that responsibility make his own role in having both created and then activated the MSG pointless? They both have responsibility for the events of Malachor V whether either of them admit it or not. [Jediphile] I don't entirely agree, since the only conclusion to your statements here is that you can control your emotions only by suppressing or denying them, and I do not believe that is true. I believe that you can acknowledge your emotions internally and yet choose not to respond to them outwardly. Otherwise it would be the same as saying that I'm suppressing my emotions, if someone insults me, and I choose not to go ballistic and yell at him for it. But I also have the option of just shaking my head (inwardly or otherwise) and thinking "what an idiot!", and then ignoring him because he's not worth the trouble. Is that suppression? i think supressing and denying as we are applying them are 2 different things. i am using supress mean to hold back and to push down. To deny means to ignore and to pretend it doesn't exist. So supressing is controlling them as in, not letting them control the person. So, to have feelings and to aknowledge them but to not let oneself be controlled by them is to supress them. To deny one's feelings is not to aknowledge they are there and to go about things as if they weren't even when they are. When Bao-Dur is angry at Mandalore, he is obviously strained and feeling emotions, but rather than let them control him and dictate his actions, he supresses the intencity of his feelings and goes about conversing without getting into a blind rage. [Hekate,May 18 2006, 06:02 AM] i also think Atton has dealt with some of his demons. Just leaving the Sith was him facing things about himself he hadn't dared to before. Certainly, he was still affraid. During the Jedification he tells Exile he was too affraid of it changing him when that Jedi sought him out so he killed her for showing him the truth. Then he tells Exile he isn't affraid of that anymore. He is still messed-up. No doubt about it. But he does see more than just what is obvious, and he does have self-knowledge. [Jediphile] Atton didn't leave the Sith, he escaped. He escaped of his own volition, meaning, he left the Sith and went to Nar Shadaa. [Jediphile] And his guilt and self-denial haunts him throughout the game. That's why Kreia can manipulate him with impunity. i do not know what you mean by his self-denial. He feels guilty but i don't think he has any delusions on the matter nor about himself. Or did you mean self-denial in the sense of he denies himself things he needs as in self-deprivation? And i am not so sure it is impunity either. He is the only one who actively voices to Exile he does not like Kreia and he tells Exile she can't be trusted. [Jediphile] The past will always be a part of who you are at any given point in your life, and it must be reexamined on a continual basis, especially if there are dark episodes there. That's what Bao-Dur is doing. That is true. The past will always ba a part of who a person is and how that person sees him/herself. Though i maintain Bao-Dur's re-examination isn't as intelectual and removed from the emotional as is implied. [Jediphile] And that reason is simple: If Bao-Dur lets the Exile accept responsibility, then he will be admitting to himself that it really wasn't his fault, and that any choice he made at the time was pointless. That is more difficult for him to bear than it is to accept the responsibility for himself, it gives him control over the situation. His logic is that if he had not build the MSG, then none of it would have happened, and the guilt of that is easier to live with than the idea that he had no say in the matter and that his choices had no consequence. This is all fairly basic psychology, I think. As above, i don't see why their responsibility for Malachor V has to be mutually exclusive. They are both responsible. Bao-Dur can accept his role, it is only Exile's he cannot. He does not suddenly lose the power he has over the situation by aknowledging Exile's role. It seems to have more to do with how he sees Exile as opposed to his not accpeting Exile gave the Order. His stating he knows Exile gave the Order means he is aware of it, and when in the Jedification discussion he states he is aware he has to see Exile as not responsible indicates he sees Exile as sacrosanct. As someone he cannot attribute that responsibility to. i can't figure out why he needs to do that though. [Jediphile] Bad for the plot, though, since it's not romance on a sound basis. i would say far better for the plot than a Jedi Master who is still furious with Exile for not loving her 10 years later... And who said the romance would be based on that anyway? i was pointing out things that would likely occur as a result of Exile and Bao-Dur getting involved. One would certainly assume they would gravitate into having a romantic relationship because of attraction rather than for having calculated the benefits. EDIT: had to cut some out, will resume when i figure out what went on...

i think it is also important to look at the function/roles each of the main characters played and what they then bring to the future. Just as companions are important to the protagonist for how the protagonist changes and grows because of their influence, so it could be looked at what Revan and Exile bring to the galaxy. Revan is said to be the heart of the Force, and Exile to be the death of the Force. That yin-yang aspect of their function would suggest creating a balance. So if the story that remains to be told is about the role the 2 main protagonists have, than it would make sense to pursue that story. And you're right, it shouldn't be difficult to bring them back. Revan is the catalyst of this whole story, so unless Revan passes that mantle onto someone else, Revan has to go on with what s/he is doing. Exile's addition then would either compliment or contrast Revan's doings.

Actually, it does in a way. One of the dialog options after you beat him down for the last time indicates that: "What kind of life have you lived with the Force flowing through you? Was it worth living?" to which he responds "It was not. No matter how many I killed... there was no end to the pain... the blades the Force tore through my flesh. Kreia, she will try to break you, to teach you how far someone can fall. Her weakness... is you. {Beat} As you were mine. I am glad to leave this place... at last." "I am glad to leave this place at last" I believe when he says "this place" is refering to life. And I think the Exile knew that, which is why s/he tries to convince him to let go of the Force. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mellypie, you're right about that. i forgot that was an option. It does make the others odd though. Thanks Wel. that depends when you ask them . And you are right about sometimes giving something up is to show true strength, even moreso when it is one's life one is giving up. i'm not sure about that since she goes to such lengths to keep Atton around. i always wondered why Atton is so important to her... Konichi wa! i can only imagine it. Yeah, i can see that now... "I spent 50 bucks on this?!?!? Expletive, expletive, expletive...."

Be that as it may, it does not alter the fact she is subserviant to Exile which by definition prevents them from being equals. So, in the context of their equality, no, those aren't good enough reasons for me. Since you dislike long answers, i'll refrain from rebutting the rest of your points.

No. As you can see, i get plenty rebuttals as you are rebutting me now. Now for the or what... even with all the details Jediphile and i get into, we still misunderstand what the other is getting at. Short and sweet leaves alot of room for misinterpretation. i still think he isn't. Is that on its own satisfying? Bao-Dur - yes. Atirs - went DS even with female Exile Handmaiden - sure, it is nice stuff. Never said it ain't. Visas - i don't see how she is more equal to Exile when the whole point of her is her submiting to Exile. Yeah, i kinda got that. [Jediphile,May 17 2006, 09:44 AM]You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form (I find that seeing it that also has the benefit of making it far easier to accept it, when I have to concede a point to someone else ) Which you haven't, i just happened to notice... Perhaps that " " should have been a [Hekate]So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. [Jediphile]...especially when first we begin to deceive... Is that an admission? [Jediphile]that's actually another reason for him to admit to those feelings, assuming he wants to have a chance with Brianna Do you mean "not to admit those feelings"? Then that would be starting it off with a lie. But if you meant it as is posted than that is indeed another reason why he wouldn't have lied. Hence furthering the argument of why we have to take what the characters say as being the truth (except where plot dictates otherwise) because it is all we have to go on. [Hekate]for Exile to face reality, and for the player to have some clue what the heck is going on. Since everything the player gets to know on those subjects is through dialogues, it should be an indication of how Exile feels. *grumble* [Jediphile]My apologies... *grumble* was at the game for making all this ambigousness, not at you. [Jediphile]I was not making a direct analogy - I was just using Reagan as an example. My appologies... Actually, i meant a politician (who just happened to be Reagan) versus a Jedi. Infact, there is very little here (as in not the Star Wars universe) that can be compared to Jedi. When you explained the point of a general understanding of why Ghandi is understandably seen as heroic, i was making the point Jedi are generally seen as heroic therefore it is easy for me to accept Exile did something or somethings Atris would see as heroic. [Jediphile]Actually, not all the jedi seem to think so highly of the Exile And that makes Atris loving Exile more believable how? That sounded alot more snarky than sincere but i can't think of how to rephrase it. [Jediphile]Hmmm. I don't see Atris admiring Exile for an innate ability (i.e., an ability that the Exile was born with and did nothing on his/her own to promote - Exile was, after all, completely unaware of it). Admiration usually comes from impressive things people have done willfully, I think. i can't agree with that. When i think of those who have natural talents i do not, i admire those people's skills. When i think of kids (adults even) who hero worship athletes, they often do so based on the athlete's skill and natural talent and not based on whether that athlete has done something good for them personally nor on if that athlete is a person the admirer would respect. Hero worship of that sort has more to do with what the admirer is attributing to the "worshipee" as opposed to being about the "worshipee's" true qualities. And Exile did make Force bonds. Even if Exile doesn't do it purposely, it occurs often enough for the Jedi Masters to have taken notice and for them to be impressed with. Not saying that is the case, just saying i can accept the hero worship without a stated cause as i can love without a reference base. [Jediphile]Which is what I find hurts the story. If Atris loves the male Exile, okay. I don't need an explanation for that, because in most cases nobody can explain why they love someone else, but rather just know they do. But I don't think admiration works the same way, and therefore the male Exile's relationship with Atris seems more compelling to me than the female Exile's. Usually i'd be inclined to agree about the love happens without a reason thing. Love is love, it just happens. End of story. But i felt just as lost about it with Atris as i did with Sion over the why. There was nothing personal about it in the least. Not one little memory, not one comment refering to it in anyway... To me, it felt thrown in there with the purpose of adding 'a hot Jedi chick' to the list of women who lust after male Exile. It is 10 years down the road. Carth was seen as a whiner for still being affected by his wife's death 4 years down the road. Atris being so furious with male Exile 10 years later based on her romantic feelings for him is, to me, not only creepy, but difficult to believe, especially for a Jedi Master and all. For anyone to identify that intencely with a person requires s/he has great difficulty distinguishing between the other person and her/himself. Romantic love does that to an extent, but there is more going on than that. Hero worship, especially if it went to the extreme it seems to have, makes more sense to me. Putting Exile up on a pedestal, especially one where Exile is seen to have been able to do no wrong and be the pillar of light and Jedi goodness (sorta the way you think Atton does for Exile but with differences), and mix in Atris expected Exile not to go to war which also justified in her own mind her not going to war, then Exile goes to war, Atris's world, and everything she used to keep herself elevated by in equating herself with Exile, is now gone. Hence, rather than look at herself, she blames Exile. Now that i can see burning at her soul for 10 years. It has little to do with Exile, and alot to do with Atris. If i'm lucky, that provided more clarity on my standpoint. [Jediphile]One thing they could have done is made Atris the Exile's old master. That would have solved the problem by explaining Atris' admiration as pride in a padawan's potential. It also seems to be a fairly convenient solution. I find it very interesting that they did not do this... Yup, that could have explained Atris feeling as if she failed and her being unable to accept that so her anger and inability to look at herself still lingers. [Jediphile]The real problem is whether the player goes "huh?"... which I did. It seemed to come out of the blue, made no sense to me, and did not lead to anything revealing or worthwhile in the plot. Which in my eyes made it look too much like the devs were thinking they used the love-theme between Atris and male Exile, and so they had to do something similar between the female Exile and one of the bad guys, and then it got forced onto Sion because it was unfeasible for Nihilus. And that's how it felt to me - forced! Nah, i don't buy the devs threw it in to equal things out. They likely would have chosen 'a hot Jedi hunk' for that instead. One would assume if they wanted to have the player feel something for the villain, the dev would have chosen to follow popular culture standards therefore Sion would have had to be more like *shudder in fear* Mical. i find it difficult to see they thought female players (whose interest i assume you are refering to by the evening out the "score" in the love interest of a villain category) would find Sion's feelings for female Exile appealing as a whole. Just look, they came up with Mical. i don't think they gave a hoot about making things even like that. It seems Sion was supposed to be alot more important in the game, all the antagonists actually, and Sion vs Atton was supposed to be a major event in female Exile's game. That battle wouldn't be as meaningful if it is just Atton who loves her as opposed to both Atton and Sion loving her (not saying Atton sacrificing himself isn't meaningful, it is. i just meant the battle itself). The only difference between Atris and Sion, when dealing with their respective loves, is the dialogue is a bit altered. There aren't any extra cut-scenes as there is with Atton (asking Boa-Dur about Exile), which could mean both were thrown in, or poorly cut out. [Jediphile]So what? Brianna even comments on the male Exile's feelings for Atris, so it's not as if the Exile wasn't aware of it. Brianna asks him if he had feelings for Atris. She, on the other hand, makes it quite clear how she feels about his feelings for Visas if his influence is high with Visas and low with Brianna. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Again, i don't remember there being anything of significance in male Exile and Atris' last confrontation, so if there is, that changes things, but the player is given a bit more feel for Atris' romantic feelings than Sion's, but not all that much really. Of her anger though, in spades. [Jediphile]You get several options for how to end story for Atris. Unless you choose to kill her, you can choose among these: Atris: "And what will you do with me now? Abandon me here on this dead world - or end my life, as I wished to end yours?" 1. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." 2. "I need you to see what you have become - and turn away from it." 3. "You will answer for your crimes before the Council, and then you shall return to your prison." 4. "You must return to your prison, Atris. And leave the battles to those who have the strength to fight them." Ayup. Same with female Exile, is what i was getting at. There is no love confession etc... But the point of Sion has to die no matter what goes on is true and uncontested. i thought her deciding to stay and die came after that part of the conversation though. And i also thought that is what she and Kreia were talking about post the Jedi Master massacre on Dantooine; once Atris realized Kreia was lying, she saw there was no place left her since she felt she couldn't be redeemed. i could be entirely wrong with that though. It's just how i thought of it after playing. [Hekate]Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. [Jediphile]Why? 'cause he had been on her mind. To get more specific; someone a person thinks of and has whatever feelings for is more personally significant to said person than one said person does not have those thoughts about nor feelings for. Why more meaningful depending on how the Atton-Sion fight goes? Because if she loves Atton, he gets killed. If she loves Sion, then he kills her companion. If she loves both of them, than she has feelings for someone who just killed someone she had feelings for too. If she loves neither of them, than their feelings hold their own worth and it is a powerful image since both did things for her she will never care about. All in all, significant i say. [Jediphile]Yes, but this is just as relevant to the male Exile. We were speaking of the significance of Sion's death and how it pertained specifically to the romace plot with Exile. You're saying "So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all." is why i tried to explain why Sion's death held impact and his caring for female Exile mattered to the game. If he died just because he had had enough and he realized he could never live-up to what Kreia saw in Exile, than his death came about from just that. On the other hand, if he died because he realized he was wrong and that his caring for Exile is stronger than his need to stay alive, than that is important. Exile had a direct impact on his death either way. The distinction lies in Sion's motivation of either giving up, or on letting go. And his letting go carries other meanings as i have pointed out in earlier posts. [Jediphile]I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. He certainly makes it more clear than Atris does, and she tries to kill Exile after she had let him go the first time because Kreia told her she would be the next Darth Traya. By having that be the reason, they reduce the impact of her loving him by virtue of her attempt on his life has nothing to do with him. Whereas with Sion, his letting go instead of giving in increases the impact of his loving her. And i know the whole point of Atris having to kill Exile specifically is a sort of Sith rite to bring her to the DS, but as with Sion, she tries to kill all incarnations of Exile even if she did love male Exile. [Jediphile]Agreed, but again, the Exile's gender has no bearing on this, since it is true for Sion regardless. Atton only sacrifices himself for female Exile so of course it has bearing on his importance. Or did i completely misunderstand what you were saying? [Jediphile]That is entirely dependent on whether Sion is compelling enough for the player to accept his feelings as genuine. I found that more than difficult. Especially in the female Exile's story, where he spoke of feelings for me even as he tried to kill me - that does sort of make me doubt his words, somehow... Does that mean Atris' feelings for Exile went away when she tried to kill him? Do we then doubt she loved him at all and it was all just a ruse so he would let his guard down when she finally did try to kill him? No, of course not. i find it hard to believe she would try to kill someone she loves just because Kreia told her to. i fail to see the logic of Sion lying about his feelings to female Exile at that point. He explains he would rather she die than lose to Kreia and have her become broken as he was. He asked her to leave rather than go to Kreia; however; female Exile did not have that option so she had to participate in Sion's death since by his very nature, the consequence for him to accept he was wrong about the views he held, was death. Atris doesn't tell male Exile her feelings. Male Exile doesn't get the dialogue option to even aknowlege her feelings nor to suggest his own. Female Exile gets to say Sion is a presence in her mind, he gets to tell her she is important to him. The fact she says "as well" with regard to him being a presence in her mind indicates she believes what he is saying is true. *confusion* [Jediphile]No, I don't agree, since I did not believe he was ever sincere. Why not? What indication was there of him not being sincere? [Jediphile]The masters are significant, but they're not entirely consistent, since especially Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell appear to have changed a lot from when you first meet them and when you meet them at the council. That they do, and i think saying "not entirely" is being a little generous. Those were the only dialogues they had in the game, other than Kavar who had scenes with Talia and a brief talk with Exile in the cantina wherein nothing significant about this issue was said. To me, that was a huge blunder on the devs part and messed-up my understanding of the whole Force wounds and bonding with Kreia themes, and left me wondering if Exile had been speaking with doppelgangers. [Jediphile]Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) i'm not sure how well the 2 can be compared; a child being removed from her/his family, and a youth having an attraction to her/his master. Mical said he felt awe and things along those lines. There is nothing to indicate an intence crush or lust. Most likely, if his feelings were strong enough to warrant it, they would have done something about it, but they obviously were not. [Jediphile]First of all, I think it works because it underscores the very denial of the jedi council that Zez-Kai Ell speaks off. The jedi masters are - collectively - arrogant, because they think they are always right and the younger jedi wrong, and they think they are themselves above the failings of the young. That's why Zez-Kai Ell's admission of how flawed the jedi have become is so significant to me. The master did not see many things. Atris' love is just one of them. ...But otherwise I agree, the masters have been ignorant, self-delusional, and generally unwilling to accept their own responsibility. Heck, Zez-Kai Ell even says it himself, and he's one of them, so there really is no surprise there. Vash said (paraphrasing) "We do not cast blame, we take responsibility Atris" which to me indicates she, at least, sees a problem with the severity of Atris' feelings. i find it very difficult to believe they would have done absolutely nothing about it. As on their high horse and infalible as they believe themselves to be, Atris' feelings posed the real and forseeable danger she would fall to the DS. Such strong emotions are the very thing they guard against the most. Also, i thought Zez-Kai Ell was speaking his doubts about the Jedi teachings as a whole rather than casting blame on the Masters. He did say he left the Order the day Exile was exiled since he felt they should have asked why Exile chose to defy the Council, but then he speaks of how Exile's wound made them affraid and they couldn't deal with it. But that is quite different than counselling a fellow Master on controling her feelings. The strength of a Jedi comes from them never having to stand alone. By ignoring Atris' feelings and letting her isolate herself through their intencity, they are intentionally cutting her off from the Jedis' source of strength. i just can't see that, especially not given how fond of deliberating, minding eachother's business, and meditating on problems they are. [Jediphile]I do not agree entirely on the masters in K1, though. How was it obvious that Revan was DS?!?And in any event, they had no choice but to send him on that journey, because that was the only way to find the starmaps and so the Starforge. Remember that while Revan and Bastila knew which planets they were on, it wasn't until Revan actually went to each planet that he gained a vision of its precisely location. And as Bastila explains, sending a master along would only have made them easier for Malak to find. Oops! i could have made that more clear. i meant if, when meeting the Council for the first time, Revan is obviously DS (in the DS alignment range, especially at point wherein it shows in Revan's features), why did they send her/him without a Master leaving Bastila out to dry with her having a strong bond with Revan, especially since she is so important with her battle meditation? That did not make any sense to me whatsoever. Nor did the whole sending them without a Master because it would draw too much attention. How so? Masters can hide their presences, can they not? The risk of sending them without one far outweighs the risk of sending one, i would think... [Jediphile]Because Sion is not characterized deeply enough to warrant such an attachment, and there seems to be no reason why he would suddenly develop it out of the blue. And to throw it in there in just six to ten lines is not enough to create the depth that a romance would require, especially if there is no backstory to establish it. i see. [Jediphile]Which is precisely why he is not complicated. He is very intelligent, yes, but does not have a complex psyche. Not because he is not a deep character, but because he insists on not allowing things to overwhelm him. He simplifies things, and that is his greatest strength. He openly admits that he hated the mandalorians and took pleasure in their death. That's a terrible thing to admit. Does it make Bao-Dur evil? No, because looks on it as a part of himself, an experience that is part of what he is now. Like other experiences, it has led him to be the person he is now. And you can see his simplication of things in how he responds to things like influence. You can sweettalk your way to influence with Bao-Dur. No, he has to see you do good deeds to gain respect for you. Even here you can see that he is a no-nonsense kind-of-guy, who won't put up with explanations of justification, innuendo, or manipulation. He refuses to consider anything but the value of your acts. He keeps it simple. Hmm. i think he does have a complex psyche and things aren't as unentangled within him as they seem. When he speaks of Malachor V, he does not do so as if it was something of his past that has been dealt with. There even is the cut-scene where he and Exile couldn't sleep and he tells Exile of his dream of the MSG activation and he tells Exile the event is within him still. It is embeded in his psyche, he can't escape it. Exile listening in on the crew's thoughts hears Bao-Dur's echo "Malachor V". When he speaks with Exile about his being affected by her/him during the Jedification, he tells Exile he blames himself for both building the MSG, and for activating it. Exile counters, yet still Bao-Dur tells Exile he cannot see it that way. He tells Exile he may have to see himself as responsible, and through that, he attempts to atone. The fact he says it is something he might have to see that way indicates he is aware that he doesn't have to because there are other ways of looking at it, as Exile pointed out, but he also can see he needs to for his psychological and emotional stability. He can see what would happen to him if he let himself let go of that, as well as what is by refusing to let go of it. Bao-Dur knows himself quite well, but he is still very much at odds with himself. That he holds onto the notion Exile is not to blame for giving the order whereas he is for acting on that order shows he aknowledges his own falibility and he has a clarity of understanding his own responsibility, yet he cannot clearly see his insisting Exile is not responsible is delusional. [Hekate]But it's not as if he loses sight of things, its more like he says "OK. This is too big for me to deal with all at once. I am going to group these issues together here, and these other issues here. I'll deal with these ones first, and once I've done enough work on those, I'll move on to doing these. But I won't forget everything else; I'll keep it all in mind and work on it sub-consciouly as I deal with one group of problems than the next." So eventhough he makes it simple, he still thinks about the other stuff, and he still sees the big picture. And he knows what he can handle at once, which also takes self-awareness and an understanding of the issues. [Jediphile]Yes and no. He keeps it separated and puts the stuff he cannot deal with yet out of his mind, so that he can concentrate on it later, when the first problem is solved and no longer requires his attention. **joke begins* *Sigh* So close, yet so far.... *joke ends** [Jediphile]I don't see that at all. He openly admits his hatred for the mandalorians and the pleasure he took in killing them. But you just know as he says it, that he regrets having those feelings. That's not denial or suppression. That's dealing with them right then and there. But he is a rather reserved person, which probably comes from his long years apart from the Exile, where he had no one he could relate those emotions to. Bao-Dur is strong in that he has faced his demons alone and come to terms with them. Exile and Atton have been utterly unable to do the same. We agree he isn't in denial (other than about the responsibility Exile had in events). And he is strong for not running from his responsibilities nor from the intencity of the emotions he used to feel. The unique thing about him is he is in a different place psychologically than everyone else. This is where we differ on this; he does surpress his feelings. When Exile does something evil, he calmly says (paraphrasing) "I only follow you because of what we have been through together General". That is him supressing the anger, disappointment, and myriad of other different things he feels so he can go on doing what he is. He changed from who he was during the Mandalorian Wars. From being an emotion driven person reacting to emotional stimulus (he even enlisted out of hate and anger), to being a reserved person who tries to do things following reason by surpressing his emotions. He does not like where his emotions had lead him. In order to not become the same monster he was, he has learned to control his anger and other emotions through supressing them. i also think Atton has dealt with some of his demons. Just leaving the Sith was him facing things about himself he hadn't dared to before. Certainly, he was still affraid. During the Jedification he tells Exile he was too affraid of it changing him when that Jedi sought him out so he killed her for showing him the truth. Then he tells Exile he isn't affraid of that anymore. He is still messed-up. No doubt about it. But he does see more than just what is obvious, and he does have self-knowledge. [Jediphile]I don't see it that way at all. On the contrary, he has already dealt with those emotions and closed the book on them. But they are part of the sum that he is now, and he never forgets that. If he doesn't connect with them, then it's because they are in his past and should stay there. And I don't think he sees the Exile as sacrosanct. The Exile was just there and someone he expects can understand his emotions, in which he is not entirely correct - the Exile is far more in denial than he is. But he can certainly be dismissive of the Exile, if he/she does something he doesn't like (DS acts). As stated above, they aren't in his past since he is still effected by it during the game. i do think he sees Exile as sacrosanct. There is no other reason i can fathom why he is so rational about everything other than Exile. Exile gave the order. Bao-Dur cannot accept Exile bears the responsibility that now rests on her/his shoulders because of it. Yet he can accept his own. There has to be some reason for that, some reason why he doesn't let Exile bear her/his rightful burden of responsibility and guilt. [Jediphile]That sounds like the worst basis for ever being involved with someone to me. You shouldn't be with someone as a means of healing old wounds, because that suggests the other person is just a catalyst for you to deal with your own problems, and the other person does not deserve that. That's why I'm a bit skeptical about Brianna's feelings for the male Exile, since she sees too much of her father him for it to be entirely healthy. i never said it is a good basis to go into a relationship consciously expecting nor thinking of. i was explaining how a relationship between them would affect them, and by extension why it wouldn't necesarily be a bad thing for them. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Visas' backstory is the darkest of them all. And as such, it feels much more inappropriate for romantic endeavours than the others' do. There is a huge difference between being active participants in death and large scale slaughter, especially when actively instigating it and being aware of the consequences, contrasted to being an unsuspecting victim who feels all life around her die, and as if that wasn't devastating enough, to be made a slave to the one who destroyed it in the first place. i just can't agree with your assesment on the differences here. Trauma like that is extremely severe. It defies logic Visas isn't just a walking zombie or in a vegetative mental state. But she isn't, so she is in the game. But it really does feel off with Visas. [Jediphile]But there is a major difference between Visas' background and that of Atton or Bao-Dur - Visas was not responsible for it. She has a lot of trauma to deal with, but there is no responsibility or guilt over her past for her to deal with. Nihilus destroyed her world and made her his servant. She had no choice in the matter. The level of effect being the victim of a severe trauma versus the perpetrator of a severe trauma is so completely differential in scale and scope. There most certainly is guilt involved in the complex intermixing of emotions Visas experiences. When she speaks with Exile about Katarr, she mentions she questions why she survived. Having something of that scale occur as she could do nothing other than live through it, even losing herself to the point wherein she sees life as ugly and abhorent, that does not go away with an epiphany nor a single event, not even with the death of the one who caused such destruction in the first place. And Exile is the one who caused the cataclysmic event creating the Force wound from which Nihilus, hence the resultant destruction of Katarr, was made. Then she made herself Exile's servant. That does not bode well for her psyche, nor for her being able to heal. [Jediphile]It's more like she was in a trance-like state until the Exile defeated her and awoke her from a nightmare. i disagree she was in a trance-like state and she had a sudden perception change when he defeated her. She was quite aware when she spoke with Nihilus in the cut-scene, even making the decision to take a shot at him by asking him if he is affraid of the "noise" she picked-up on. Now certainly, one could assume she was in a disociative state of mind while serving Nihilus; however; that way of perceiving and experiencing life does not simply change with one event. The brain requires adjustment to the changes, especially if that is how one survived through ongoing psychological and emotional strain. [Jediphile]She may have great pain to deal with, but she seems quite determined in what the right course of action must be. There is no doubt or hesitation. She may seem submissive to the Exile, but I don't think she really is - to her the Exile is something that can destroy Nihilus, and she is determined to bring that about, even at the cost of her own life. She will tell nothing of Nihilus until she is convinced the Exile has the power to face him, and she can be openly dismissive the Exile's choices, if she feels it puts the Exile in danger. Since I like playing LS, that makes me prefer the male Exile, because otherwise Visas is just using the Exile as a weapon, which seems callous. She doesn't say, until before the Ravager when speaking with male Exile on the Ebon Hawk, she thinks perhaps life can be something to value. When on Onderon, and the Vaklu soldiers attack the cantina, she wants to slaughter everyone to rid the galaxy of the festering life she sees people represent. i don't think her priority is to kill Nihilus before the Ravager. i think it is to get Exile as strong as possible so s/he can feed Nihilus better. That was her mandate afterall. To bring that thing she felt to Nihilus. i think it wasn't until later, when she realized what Exile is, could she even fathom the notion Nihilus could be defeated. And i don't see that as callous. i see that as her severely traumatized and following her programming. [Jediphile]If Visas also has feelings for the Exile, however, then humanizes her more, because she is in the dilemma of having to put the one she loves in harms way if Nihilus is to be defeated. From a certain point of view, Visas having feelings for male Exile isn't necessarily of itself a bad thing. It might even be seen as a good sign she is able to feel a bit of a broader range of emotions again. What i am saying is she is still way too severly traumatized for anything positive to come of it if he pursued, especially since Exile is as deep in denial and unaffected by others' needs as he (and female Exile) seems to be. Adding more dilemas to Visas though, seems to be more cruel and to be pushing things with her character too far as opposed to being more humanizing. Thankfully she was aware of the confrontation's inevitability from the start. And yes, if she loves Exile than that is him getting into harm's way; however; she did ask him to stay and not confront Nihilus thus he is putting himself in harm's way. And that you said she is doing it is telling. Visas will take that burden onto herself eventhough it really doesn't belong there. And that is one example that depicts why i feel the devs adding her loving Exile to the already heavily burdened character takes away from the plot and from her character development. [Jediphile]I disagree completely. Nobody succumbs to the Exile's will more than Atton does. Note how he sort of loses control over himself and follows the Exile into combat whether he wants to or not. That is not true for Visas. Bao-Dur is not relevant to consider in this context, since he is the same for either gender. As for Visas not knowing who she is, I never saw her doubting herself or her goals in the game. She is quite determined and certain about her priorities. And she does not put everything in the Exile's hands, except as a consequnce of her seeing the Exile as the only hope for the galaxy to survive Nihilus. It is not her own hopes she puts in the Exile's hands as much as the hope for survival for the entire galaxy. And as I've said above, her "servitude" for the Exile is not an act of submission but rather a dedication to her own greater goal. She cannot defeat Nihilus, but the Exile can, and so she does everything she can to bring that about. I find Sion irrelevant in this context, because his relationship with female Exile is forced and uncompelling. He loses control of himself because of the bond and because killing is something he has ingrained in him. He isn't pleased about it and even said so the first time when he asked for some warning for next time. As the game goes on, his protests turn into agreement if he is DS (don't know if alignment has an effect on that, i assume it doesn't) which signify he is turning DS and following more his ingrained assassin behaviour. Visas and Atton both gain influence with kind and cruel acts because of their histories. However, Atton isn't anymore affected by Exile's killing innocents than any of the others. Mira admits killing with Exile has become easy, and it frightens her. Brianna also has a similar reaction of jumping in and killing eventhough if she were not with Exile, she wouldn't, and it disturbs her. i have never seen Visas refuse combat. i can't see why she would since she hates all life and wants to put an end to the chaos of living things. We diverge on the concept of what Visas' goals are. i saw her initial goal to be to bring Exile to Nihilus. You saw her goal as destroying Nihilus. Visas' servitude seems quite apparent to me. After besting her in combat she is confused why Exile would let her live and she tells Exile (paraphrasing) "you are stronger than I. I have nothing to offer." That speaks to her state of mind of her being a servant who can see value in herself only in terms of what she can bring to the other. i also saw her sacrificing herself on the Ravager as being done for Exile and not to defeat Nihilus since she first questions if he is certain. When he states he is, she does so. When it is not offered as a suggestion, she does not offer herself up for them to kill Nihilus. [Jediphile]And the male love interests aren't? Atton feels so inferior that he dare not even admit his feelings, and if the Disciple bowed and scraped more than he does, the floor of the the Ebon Hawk would suffer a hull breach. No, I don't agree. Brianna is a bit unhealthy, as I've said, but she is strong enough that I'm wondering how long the relationship would last, once Brianna comes to terms with her past. And Visas does not submit to the Exile's will - she submits to her cause and the consequences that follows. But that is her choice and not the Exile's will. Atton does not change who he is to suit what his idea of what Exile wants him to be. Atton remains true to himself throughout, eventhough he isn't sure who he is. It is not as if Atton has a sudden Exile induced epiphany and has become a pious celebate monk. He does change, but it is a part of his personal growth or regression depending on his alignment. Though that could be significantly different with the cut-content. They had to have Kreia force him into staying on with Exile to explain why he would stay, since he certainly would not have done so of his own volition, not even for female Exile. Mical bows once. On Dantooine. As a greeting. He bows to male Exile too. Mical in no way changes who he is nor how he views things, he openly disagrees with her about her exile, he teachers her meditation, and he explains things to her (about stuff she should know too... ), and tells her she is wrong. Mical is not weak and maleable, nor does he do nor say things to please her. He says what he thinks and feels and if she doesn't like it, so be it. [Hekate]With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. [Jediphile]Precisely. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Preciely what? Again my dim-wit sense is tingling... i'm the dim-wit. Not you [Jediphile]Mical can provide normalcy in a way that Atton never can. That's where Atton feels threatened by Mical, because he seems Mical having a relationship with female Exile that Atton can never hope for himself. Hence the confrontation between them in the cut content. Oh. i thought you were disagreeing with me and wrote "preciely" as a way of saying that proved your point. [Jediphile]Bao-Dur doesn't need intimacy to deal with his past. He has no problems doing so in the male Exile's story, and he doesn't even need friendship - he has already dealt with it and put it behind him. He needs something to light the metaphorical fire under him to get him going. Just saying an intimate relationship would do that. [Jediphile]The Exile (either gender) is far more in denial about the past than Bao-Dur is. Bao-Dur is at the state that the Exile is still trying to reach. i didn't see any sign at all that i can recall of Exile wanting to deal with her/his issues which is a reason i think something that isn't tragic nor includes killing is what Exile needs since s/he deals with those without it affecting her/him deeply. [Jediphile]Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... i disagree with that. Atton in part wants to be able to do as she can, but there is far more to it than that. From the begining he saw Exile's weaknesses, and weakness is not something he finds appealing, and his natural inclination is to exploit it which he chooses not to do. Also from the begining, he saw Exile's strengths, her/his courage and determination. He didn't even know about the dark past at that point. When Exile is DS, he voices his discontent strongly. When Exile is LS, he speaks of it being good. To me, that indicates he is working on changing, and he is doing so regardless of what Exile does. He is a complicated person who is torn in many different directions. i do concede though, at the end of the day, his alignment and if he falls back into the pattern of his Revan days, depends a great deal on Exile. That is the nature of Exile's Force bond. Visas has the exact same large and actuated alignment deciding based on Exile. Atton and Visas' pasts are the reasons for their maleability. [Jediphile]Those ripples are the Exile's responsibility, not Bao-Dur's, since he was "just" another engineer at the time and not a jedi. He is not responsible for the consequences in the force, since he "just" created a warmachine that killed people. He was not the one who used it, however, and he was not the one who denied the force. It was Bao-Dur's hands that not only built the MSG, but also that activated it. When he speaks with Exile about the dream, he reveals he was the one to 'push the button' It was at Exile's command, but that act and its inception lie solely on Bao-Dur. He did not know, nor could he have forseen the impact that would have on the Force, nor that it created a DS power spot. But intentions do not take away from reality. He is responsible for his creation and for its use. Exile is responsible for ordering its use and for rejecting the Force. [Jediphile]She is a void inside, her feelings dead. But suddenly she senses something from across the galaxy even over the oppressing presence of Nihilus. She shifts in her nightmare, taking a sudden and unexpected breath of the very life that seemed lost to the galaxy. What she saw, unless i am mistaken, is Exile's lack of connection to the Force. Exile's wound and the nothing the Jedi Masters saw. That would be very akin to Nihilus. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]30 years ago they lost a huge slew of Jedi. However long the war lasted, they didn't immediately jump into taking on a boat-load of padawans. They had to recooperate, get things sorted, and then go about Jedi life again. Their numbers were diminished. They were limited with the numbers of padawans they could teach. Slowly they add to their numbers as those padawans age. 30 years down the road, the younglings who came to them after the Exar Kun war head off to the Mandalorian Wars, those who, like Exile, are supposed to begin teaching new padawans. The number of older Jedi who survived the Exar Kun war are low, and now they have to go and take care of the extra responsibilities the first generation Jedi who left to go the Mandalorian wars were no longer fulfilling. So there logically should be a relatively large number of younglings who did not get to be taught since the older Jedi would have been teaching apprentices anyway, and many of those of their preceeding generation who were supposed to teach them, left. To me, that makes sense. [Jediphile]Makes no sense to me at all. You make it sound as if any and all jedi below the age of 30 or so left to fight with Revan and Malak, but that is not true. Revan split the jedi order. He did not destroy it, and the fact that there are jedi to fight him later in the Jedi Civil War would seem to prove that. Take a look at the jedi conclave on Dantooine in K1 - plenty of not old jedi around. I also don't see why the older jedi masters who lost their padawans to Revan's cause suddenly turned incapable of teaching younger padawans instead. As for Exar Kun leaving only few jedi left, I don't know where that came from. Many died, yes, but there was a lot of jedi on those ships above Yavin IV, and none of them seem to have died. The Mandalorian Wars were over thirty years later, which gave the order time enough time to recuperate and train several new generations of jedi. But it's not as if so much time had passed that all the old masters had just died. Sorry, but it doesn't add up, unless we suggest that the younglings are trained only by the young jedi who have just moved beyond the rank of padawan, and we know that is unlikely, since we saw Yoda train the padawans in Episode II. Were teachers lost. Sure. But I cannot see why the teachers alone left, but none of those padawans, who would have left their masters without an apprentice. Mical may suggest it, but both Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell tell us that they too lost padawans (Exile in Kavar's case) to Revan's cause. i re-read the paragraph i wrote, and i must say, i am not sure why you are stating i said most of the Jedi died during the Exar Kun Wars, nor that i implied the older Jedi did not take on padawans. I clearly state they most likely did. Jolee in KotOR spoke of the Exar Kun Wars splitting the Order and many Jedi died, leaving the Order weakened and with severly reduced numbers since many went to the DS, and others died fighting those who left. Based on that, those who had padawans and those who were to teach them, were lost, leaving a rather large youngling population without the chance to become padawans. A similar thing occured with the Mandalorian Wars. Except not as many left to fight, and most of the older generations remained with the yonger post-Exar generations leaving. They were at teaching age, therefore when they left, a larger number of youngling were left without those who could teach them. The older Jedi who did not leave had to pick-up the slack, and they most likely took on padawans for training, but there is still a hole in the heirarchy, and there are still missing teachers. Judging from what Mical recounted, he was supposed to become Exile's padawan. i don't know if those who left were thought to return so their intended padawans were left for them or not, but i do find it believable the dent put into the Order was enough to hinder the making younglings into padawans process. [Hekate] i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities [Jediphile]Why is ties to the Exile's personal history relevant? It's like you're saying a character is only interesting if he or she has a direct tie to the Exile's past. I don't agree with that at all. Atton and Brianna have no ties to the Exile, and their stories are quite rich anyhow. Besides, it hurts credibility if everything in a plot has relevance to the protagonist directly, since it suggests that nothing can take place in the rest of the universe. Did i say it is the only important factor? Did i say it is the most important factor? Did i say a character is less significant without a personal tie to Exile? Nope. i didn't at that. The only reasons i can think of having a personal history is important is: to establish a better sense of the background in the story, it gives Exile a foundation in the game world, it gives different relationship potentials to Exile, and it has the potential to bring more or different meanings to the events in the game. i've also stated i'm not sure that is a good basis to judge the character's worth. However it cannot be denied 2 people having a shared history of some sort is significant. The question is what weight should it be given when deciding the extent of the character's overall effect and how to "score" it.

i meant in Exile's trying to convince Sion to stop trying to fight him/her on Malachor V Exile tells Sion to let go of his need to stay connected to the Force because it is strength and to survive without relying on the Force is something Kriea respects. But that would kill him, so it didn't make sense to me why Exile was trying to convince Sion to find a new lease on life and a new strength and purpose in life using a method that would kill him. Do you think they were both working for Kreia all along too?

Finding them both on Malachor V indicates to me they are in on it together, especially since he so easily takes her commands. i thought on Peragus Sion's arrival was way too convenient, and it was very polite of him to wait until they went to him and for him not to chase after Exile and Atton after defeating Kreia. Kreia makes it back on her own with that intence painful injury, and Sion decides he'll wait until they fly away to kill all of them when he could have killed Kreia right infront of him. Seems way too planned and well acted upon. And if he really was after Kreia, he would have gone after her the whole time and not waited for them on Korriban. And i agree he never wanted Kreia dead. So he followed her orders as he pointed out on Malachor V, so he could earn her respect and acceptance again. What i don't get is why Exile thought that Sion could give up the Force when Exile was told the only thing holding Sion together is his willpower. If he let go of the Force, he'd have killed himself, which happened anyway. See, i don't think Kreia was at his mercy at all in reality. She said her hand being cut off was necessary. The only way i could think of to make it necessary is to convince Exile their bond is lethal. Stage a little show for Exile with conveniently partnered-up Atton who adds to the believability, Sion slices off Kriea's hand and bam! that makes one convinced Exile. In a different thread in the cannon Exile debate, i compared how Atton and Sion are almost what the other could have become if they had been affected by Malachor V differently, and in a sense, they also are what the other is. Atton is ugly on the inside while Sion is on the outside. Sion doesn't manipulate and lie. He is just Sion. Atton is the manipulator, deserter, and the one who doesn't know himself. They are equally monsters both created by the MSG activation on Malachor V, both by-products of Revan's orders handed down to Exile to execute. That is an astute observation about Sion and his immortality being like the one ring from The Lord of the Rings. Um, the HK-50 did put the Exile in the Cargo hold, but it was Kreia who took her onto the Ebon Hawk. Kreia says: "Whatever occurred on board the Harbinger had rendered you unconscious. Though your thoughts were faint, I was still able to find you... sealed in one of the cargo holds." The HK-50 just followed Kreia to the Ebon Hawk. And as far as Atton freighting fuel, if he had violated the weapons ban and been arrested do you honestly think the crew of his ship (which is probably a Telos freighter and rather large) would wait for him? I still don't believe he was there to pick up the Exile. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i was basing my disagreement on what Hassat Hunter posted having to do with the jounal logs that said HK-50 brought Exile to the Ebon Hawk. And then on HK-50's 3rd person explanations which he uses when speaking of himself. But i forgot Kreia does say that. i don't see why she would have let HK-50 follow her nor get on the vessel if he wasn't working for her. Who to believe???? i can see that. But wouldn't he have been in a uniform? i doubt he would have been an indi on a commercial fuel freighter. Also, why would he violate the weapons ban if he were part of a commercial crew? i doubt the captain would have allowed that. The other issue is if he really was that concerned about Peragus blowing up, then why would he have brought anything that could cause harm? He did mention it lots of times. Could have been a cover-up, i suppose, but it's not as if Exile was interogating him on the matter. He refused to answer anyway. Also i find it a bit difficult to see Atton doing honest work like that. That is why i find the feul freighting hard to believe. That would depend on who Atton was working for. Plus weren't those holologs a few days old already? i don't remember...

Jediphile, as we delve into this deeper, it is getting more difficult to counter you. But we ain't through just yet... [Jediphile]I think I've found the source of our troubles now. Since there is no easy way of putting it, I think I'll just be blunt and break it to you and say that you're mistaken about the above. You have cited the passage of what Atris says correctly, but only with regards to the female Exile. For the male Exile, however, the same cutscene goes like this: Atris: "The exile reminded me of something... I had forgotten." Handmaiden sister: "Forgive me, mistress... but I must ask. The exile... I have never seen another effect you so strongly. Did you care for him once?" Atris: {Slight bitterness, doesn't want to admit she loved the player}"The Jedi have no such attachments.As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy... and the feelings of others... can burn for all he cares. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was... he was so right. He was so certain of it, I doubted myself. He chose Revan over the Jedi, over the Council... over...{unspoken "me" at end}" *be warned, humourous intent up ahead* Is it really fair to use the text dialogues to prove your point? *humourous threat has ended. Resume regular activities* Yup. Can't argue that. Brianna's dialogue is the same regardless, except for a "her" in place of a "him", the difference in Atris' dialogue is from the begining of your quote to the point where she speaks of judging Exile. So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. [Jediphile]Since you clearly believe your above statement to be true for both male and female Exile, I shall drop the issue of Atris' love for the male Exile in the rest of my reply here (except where it relates to other issues), since it would only serve to point to arguments from a basis of misinformation, and doing so would only serve to point fingers and antagonize on my part. *snicker* wouldn't want that now would we? *Hee, hee, hee* [Jediphile]To be totally honest, I do not recall what the Exile's options are, but even if they are all "no" in some form or at least evasive, I don't think that needs to mean that no such emotions were ever there. Given how Atris has treated him and continues to, it is not difficult for me to believe that he might have denied his feelings for Atris as well, if indeed he ever had any. And seeing as how she treats him now, and what she has become, there is little point in admitting to those emotions. Well, the point in admitting those emotions would be to let Brianna know she doesn't stand a chance, for Exile to face reality, and for the player to have some clue what the heck is going on. Since everything the player gets to know on those subjects is through dialogues, it should be an indication of how Exile feels. *grumble* [Jediphile]Possibly because I never played BG II and so didn't get the reference. Blashphemer! Go rectify that right away. Choose Jaheira. [Jediphile]Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree again. Admiration doesn't come from random and inexplicable feelings like love frequently does. Maybe you feel it differently, I don't know, but for me to admire someone, there would have to be some specific reason for me to do so. To say that I admire Ed Murrow and Ghandi is pointless unless you already know what I would admire those people for (and in these cases that would admittedly seem fairly obvious). However, if I said I admired someone you didn't know anything about, it would immediately prompt the question of what I admired about that person. For example, if I said I admired Ronald Reagan, that would probably raise a few eyebrows here and there, because someone might immediately wonder why, and there are indeed both reasons why one might or might not admire him. If, however, I then elaborated and said that I admired him for the role he played in ending the Cold War with the Soviet Union, then that casts my admiration in an entirely different light and would seem far more reasonable to most people (or so I think). But you would need to have that piece of information to understand it, and you would be wondering why I admired Reagan if I did not give it. Exile cannot be compared to Regan in anyway. Ok, they are both human and have as much personality as wet noodles, but you know what i mean. Exile was a Jedi. Jedi do heroic things. It's what they are known for. Pillars of light and goodness, defenders of the Republic, and all that Jedi goodness. (i guess the US is a republic too so that doesn't count in not comparing them so shhh.) And i wasn't suggesting hero worship just *bing!* springs into a person's heart like that. Obviously there does have to be some reason for it. What i was saying, though, is it doesn't have to have come from a massive one time event, although it could. Such things could develop over time. In a sense, friendship can be like that a little too. And i still don't think any feelings nor affections felt for others can be controlled nor artificially created. Looking up to someone may stem in logic and reasoning; however; there are people whose actions or philosophies one may look up to without feeling anything for that person. And there are people one can admire eventhough they aren't all that admirable. That is why i said hero worship, especially such a potent case of it as Atris has for Exile, is an emotion that can occur without explanation. i do understand wanting to know why and how Atris' feelings for female Exile came about. It could be that Exile is good at Force bonding and Atris isn't so she admires Exile for it. But we don't get graced with an explination, so we gotta go on what we got. We do know in the Council Chambers when Exile is being exiled, Atris is just as furious at female Exile as male Exile. And as i have stated in earlier posts, i think that is powerful for a person to react that strongly without attraction having been the catalyst. Attraction naturally increases the effect of one's emotions for the other person. Now comparing the 2, Atris freaking out at male Exile with love, and Atris freaking out at female Exile without love, it seems more viscerally impactful that she is that affected by female Exile. Her feelings for her are honest in a sense. They aren't muddled with the confusion and amplifying aspect of attraction. Obviously attraction increases feelings and their effects. But female Exile got under Atris' skin without attraction as much as male Exile did. That doesn't take away from Atris' love for male Exile though. It is just how i see it. [Hekate]Oi. i never said it is the most cohesive story plot on the planet. Nor did i say it fits in with any romantic ideal. Sion's a mess. Both in his body and head. Some people will be put off by it, and some people will find it compelling. Just as some people will find Atris' romance plot repulsive, and others compelling. By your own admission, love and attraction are not feelings one can control. [Jediphile]Actually no, but I have accepted that you think so and proceeded to argue on that basis. Perhaps not a particularly important point to make, but I do wish to mark that distinction. Anyways... i'm sorry but i don't understand what you are saying. What is it you have accepted and what distinction do you wish to make? [Hekate]So Sion feels love for female Exile because he just does. i do not understand why if Sion developed those feelings throughout the game, we must have been shown it unfold. Technically though, they do in a way with him letting her go on Korriban saying she deserves at least that, and then on Malachor V he tells her why he cares about. He has had a long time to think things over and to think about her. She is more important to Kreia than he is. That draws him to her. They don't show that in cut-scenes throughout the game, but they do have him state it in-game. It is possible it was cut content and they intended to add alot more with their backstory. [Jediphile]My problem with the Sion romance (apart from that it makes no sense to me and does not fit his characters as I see him) is that it has no significance in the game. None. You still have to fight Sion and, in the end, kill Sion regardless of it. The same is not true of Atris, however - you get the choice of whether to kill her for her crimes or spare her life and grant her redemption. What you decide for Atris will depend on how you perceive Atris and think and how you - yes - *FEEL* about her (including whether you're DS or LS obviously), but the point is that you have the choice. You have no choice for Sion - he must die. So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all. i think if they had done it properly, that Sion has to die has quite an impact. Again, we can only go on what was in there. But i have read people state they felt Sion-Exile was powerful. Yes, as i have agreed, it sorta comes out of nowhere and implies those two were somehow feeling eachother for a long time, to which the player is left going "hun?" but the point is Exile wasn't going "hun?". And when i thought about it, everything the player knows about Atris' feelings comes from cut-scenes that Exile isn't even involved in. Her chat with Brianna and such. Exile doesn't get to feel much of anything from her other than she is a pretentious shutta who stole Exile's ship, kept her/his lightsabre, is royally miffed and yells at Exile while acusing Exile of things we assume Exile didn't do, and such. Again, i don't remember there being anything of significance in male Exile and Atris' last confrontation, so if there is, that changes things, but the player is given a bit more feel for Atris' romantic feelings than Sion's, but not all that much really. Of her anger though, in spades. Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. Sion becomes significant if the player accepts he is significant. i accepted he is, and i saw him as having more depth and purpose than just being the big baddie who is boss #2. How his relationship to Kreia mirrored Exile's, how he was just abandoned by her and then taken up again to fight Exile is similar to how Kreia abandoned Exile on Dantooine. And that Sion didn't want that, he didn't want Kreia to harm Exile in the way he was harmed where Exile wouldn't have anything to live for without Kreia giving her purpose, so she wouldn't turn out to be a monster as he was, that he was even willing to kill whom he cared for to protect her, that packs a punch. That Sion was a product of Malachor V makes him important since it is Exile who ordered its destruction. Sion is a physical manifestation of Malachor V, and a very acute one at that: pain. And pain is what everyone touched by Malachor V is burdened with. i see Atton and Sion as very similar in that respect; they both were affected by Malachor V, but they suffered differently, yet, they are so similar. In the cut content, Atton says to Exile once Sion messes him up severly, "Always was ugly, now the outside matches". And that, i think, is one of the important things Sion does; he shows the ugliness of Malachor V, of Exile, of the whole blood-soiled crusade. And that this monster can actually care for something, for someone through his pain, that also is important since it shows the others affected by Malachor V just might be able to too. Wearing down his will, and that there is a difference in how that is done between male and female Exile is important, because with Sion giving up as he fights male Exile, it means something entirely different than when he lets go with female Exile. You are right though. All of what i said came from how i see things. We are told Sion is pain and such, but we really aren't given much on him, so we have to read into him what we can. i felt he was important, especially as he acted as a sort of hub where so many people's stories came together, how his path paralled others' paths, and how he was a representation of the pain Malachor V caused. He also served as a mirror to the Exile and her/his companions wherein it was shown just how tenuous their grasp on things really were. But i do understand how you feel it had no significance in the game. You also said you feel the Jedi Masters had no significance in the game. And i can understand that as well. It is not as if the game explained things nor built-up relationships. In this game, a mere mention of something made it significant. i did feel Kavar did treated Exile differently than the other Masters though. He seemed more honest and more friendly. Master Zez-Kai did speak more compassionately and he spoke of the Council in a way the players could better empathize with. But all we got was one speach from all save Vrook, and Master Kavar had a much better understanding of of Exile from the dialogue. So how that relates to Sion is, with female Exile, we see an aspect of Sion and by extension the Force wound, that we do not otherwise get to see. [Jediphile]I do not think it is insignificant whether the feelings between jedi is between a master and some other student or whether it is between a young jedi and her even younger padawan. I do believe that it would have been much easier for the masters to notice Mical's feelings and therefore assign him to another master. Atris is a master, however, and is undoubtedly much, much better at hiding her feelings, and even if they were discovered, what would the masters do? They can't kick her out just for having them - that would require acting on them first, which does not seem to me to have happened - and even so, the masters probably go through these emotions on a regular basis (they can't old by uncaring buggers like our admirable and dear old Vrook, after all) and are expected to be much better at controlling their emotions than a mere youngling and a very young jedi. So I don't accept that this is as true for Atris as it is for Mical. i'm not sure if they would have switched a youngling's or a padawan's master for her/him having some feelings of attraction. They would seem to have more likely used it as a tool to help him learn to master his feelings. i am certain as kids grow-up they would have all sorts of those feelings for a whole bunch of different people. That is only natural. i can't see why that would have been such a huge problem. Whereas a Jedi Master having such intence feelings, that would indeed have been a big problem i would think. Maybe Atris was never good at controlling her feelings and that is why she never got to instruct a padawan. Conjecture, i know, but the point is, a Master who has such feelings for a Jedi is a far more serious problem that a youth or a teen having those feelings for the same Jedi. Not only is a master strong in the Force, but a Master falling to the dark side, as Atris proved, is a far worse danger than the attraction a young padawan feels. Atris was literally freaking out after Exile's trial. She did not go about hiding her feelings in a terribly effective way. And it is the stupidity of the Jedi Council in this game with regards to Atris that makes me feel it damages the plot more than Mical's attraction does. The same thing happened in KotOR. Why the Jedi Council went about sending Revan on the Star Map mission when s/he was clearly DS when s/he got there, i will never know. That just seemed an incredibly stupid thing to do. And so the Council in KotOR II suffers with the same stupidity disease. They should have done something about Atris back then. Leaving her with such intence feelings would make it too easy for her to lose control and to fall to the dark side which, *joke at work, proceed with caution* surprise, surprise *joke zone ends*, is exactly what happened. *another joke rears its ugly head* Meh, maybe those loose and wild guys on the Council like playing it risky every now and then. Must get boring being all serene all the time. *it's been put out of its misery now* [Hekate]*Warning: humourous intent ahead* So, i take it you don't like Sion then? *Humourous attempt complete* [Jediphile]I like Sion, but not as a romance option. It doesn't seem right for his character to me. Out of intence curiosity, and i know i'll regret asking but oh well, why doesn't it seem right for his character? [Hekate]Again, back to the multitude of other occurences which turn out the same regardless of the choices the protagonist makes. The first large one that comes to mind: all the Jedi Masters get killed no matter what Exile does. Next one: Kreia dies no matter what Exile does even if in the LS rendition she just does so seemingly without cause. Next: Peragus gets blown up regardless of what Exile does. There are more, as i'm sure you are well aware of. And a few spoken lines is more than Atris gets with regards to her loving Exile. In the cut content, Sion becomes very relevant to the plot, but until Team Gizka finishes the restoration, we simply won't know. [Jediphile]I find it very interesting how you carefully avoid the question of whether the player will kill or redeem Atris in this list of events. Given how significant she is the plot, her final fate would seem fairly relevant to mention here. I wonder why you did not... The reason it isn't included in that particular list of events is because that list was of things that occur regardless of what Exile does. In Atris' case, Exile can decide if s/he'll kill Atris directly or not therefore it did not belong on that list. Just as an aside, i thought Atris dies regardless of what happens with Exile. i thought Exile either kills her directly, condemns her to death by Sith holocron, or Atris just gives-up and dies. That is what i remember of the last conversation with her. Exile can offer to help/save her but she doesn't want it and sends Exile away because it is too late for her. Alot like Kreia going "G-gaaaaahhhhh" dead for no apparent reason. i could be wrong though... [Jediphile]But is she? I was uncertain about that all the way until the confrontation with Nihilus... *baffle* i saw Visas as having no room nor patience for games nor manipulations. She seemed very straight forward and honest. i thought that complete honesty was very interesting and also completely understandable since she carried such deep pain she really didn't have the wherewithal to do anything else. She was pretty much at the edge all the time. She didn't seem to hold anything back (other than influence related stuff but that is more of a game mechanic). She, Mical, and Brianna (Hanhaar too actually), seemed to be the only NPCs where Exile knew where s/he stood. The reason i didn't include Bao-Dur is because when he is with Exile and sees Exile doing something DS, than he tells Exile the only reason he is following her/him is because of their history which indicates a rather poignant discontent. [Jediphile]Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that's precisely why I doubted her - she said all the right things a little to quickly and came around to my side far too easily. Not because what she said was unconvincing, but precisely because it was. And because I *wanted* to believe her. *joke* Perhaps you are a little too paranoid. Carth, anyone? *joke end* [Jediphile]I kept thinking about this scene from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Rocks and Shoals". Let me explain: Nog, a young ferengi Starfleet cadet, and Garak, a cardassian working for Starfleet, are exploring a planet the crew has crashed on. Garak notices that Nog keeps taking a step backwards whenever Garak does... He confronts Nog about it, who initially tries to be evasive about it and feign ignorance. Garak: "You know precisely what I mean - you're deliberately staying behind me, and I want to know why! Does this have anything to do with that unfortunate business between you and me last year?" [note: this is a reference to the events of the episode "Empok Nor", where Garak was infected with psychotropic drug that made him murder several Starfleet officers and nearly kill Nog as well] Nog: "You tied me up and threatened to kill me." Garak: "There were extenuating circumstances..." Nog: "It happened! So you can either stay in front of me or walk beside me - but I won't turn my back on you again!" Garak: "Cadet, there may be hope for you yet..." Now, this kept playing over and over in my head. "Yes, Visas I trust you... erm, would you go through that door first", while I thought to myself, "I like Visas and I *want* to trust her, but she *did* try to kill me! So I'm not turning my back on her!" It all made the game a lot more fun Wow. It is amazing what people can see in some things and not in others. Just examining how we contrast our views, how i see depth and complexity in both Bao-Dur and Atton, how i see importance in the Sion-Exile intimacy, vs how you see Mical's past with Exile as plot destroying, Sion and Exile being without meaning, seeing Atton as trustworthy once his secret is revealed... Fascinating. [Jediphile]So you think Bao-Dur is complex because he uncomplicates things WARNING: Danger of humor detected on current course! Sorry, but seem I detect a logic-circuit overloa... [brrzzzttt] - does not compute... does not compute... does not compute... Indeed your sarcasm truly is greater than mine! i think Bao-Dur has a complex psyche and intellect. I think he can see things from many different perspectives and he can see how things are woven together in the grand tapestry of life. i also think how he can reduce things to manageable sizes is in and of itself a difficult thing to do since many get overwhelmed in seeing so much. Bao-Dur doesn't get overwhelmed, he simplifies. But it's not as if he loses sight of things, its more like he says "OK. This is too big for me to deal with all at once. I am going to group these issues together here, and these other issues here. I'll deal with these ones first, and once I've done enough work on those, I'll move on to doing these. But I won't forget everything else; I'll keep it all in mind and work on it sub-consciouly as I deal with one group of problems than the next." So eventhough he makes it simple, he still thinks about the other stuff, and he still sees the big picture. And he knows what he can handle at once, which also takes self-awareness and an understanding of the issues. [Jediphile]Sorry, but that still... [brrzzttt] Damn, not again! *** System malfunction *** "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave..." i'm trying to think of a better way to explain it. Unfortunately, i'm no Bao-Dur. [Hekate]i don't get why complicating things for him is bad. i think it might just be the stimulous he needs to shake him out of his veneer of calm and deal with things he hasn't been able to since some of those have to do with how others perceive him and his feeling he cannot be loved by another. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]No, I don't agree. That would require that Bao-Dur has not been dealing with his past, and that is not the case. He struggles with his past continually, of course, as any person with his past would do on a continued basis, but he has not been in in a state of denial for all these years that now needs to be countered. i wasn't getting at he was in a state of denial. i was saying as a consequence of how he deals with things, by his reducing and remaining mostly calm, he has taken to supressing his feelings. The only time he shows strong emotions i can remember off hand, is when Canderous pushes him too hard and when he confronts Kreia. He isn't emotional when he was being Jedified eventhough one would logically expect it to be so. Even when he is DS and Jedifies from giving into his anger, he still isn't very passionate about it. Why is that? i think for 2 reasons. The first is how he sees Exile as sacrosanct and a person he cannot get angry with regardless of what Exile does, and because he surpresses his feelings. When he speaks of the wars, he mentions how much hate and anger he felt, and how he now feels those were bad reasons to fight. He regrets he killed out of anger, and especially made the MSG out of anger. But he doesn't really connect with those feelings in a meaningful way. He chose to be active rather than emotional. So what i was saying is an intimate relationship might just be exactly what he needs to allow him to begin the process of getting in touch with his supressed emotions. Not only those of rage, regret, and frustration which he does allow himself to feel on occasion, but the whole spectrum of emotions he has denied himself since entering the war, such as joy, love, and so on. [Hekate]i think the exact opposite would be true. That he isn't being shaken by attraction allows him to keep himself removed, almost emotionally and psychologically sterilized if you will, and that ultimately is worse for him. But once attraction is thrown in, by the very nature of that depth of intimacy, it would force him out of his comfort zone and he would certainly be challenged by it, but he would also grow. And growth is good And the fact he would be intimate with someone who understands his terrible karmic burden would be soulagent (sorry, slipped into French...) a mix of soothing and unburdening, which makes for less resistance to his being able to become intimate at all. [Jediphile]So that means that for Bao-Dur to feel comfortable with others, he would not to get out of his comfort zon... [brrzzzzzttttt]. Oh no!!! *** Warning: Damage to logic core - subject will be erased from memory *** i feel like a dim-wit, but i don't get what you are disagreeing with right here. [Hekate]i don't get it why nor how with female's Exile's romance options, they all are in doubt and that love between them would compromise the integrity of the characters and the plot. Atton and Bao-Dur both wouldn't believe she loves them and it would be detrimental if she did, and Mical was to be her padawan so that is wrong, and Sion doesn't have enough grounds to love her so that also is not acceptable. i am saddened by this i find Atton, Bao-Dur, and Sion have very dark and disturbing histories and connections to Exile, with alot of potential for very powerful interactions and meaningful storytelling. [Jediphile]Yes, but those dark backstories is precisely why they're not so appropriate for romantic relationships. It makes more sense for Mical, except he's just too boring in my opinion and does not seem to be enough of an equal to the Exile (nor does Atton for that matter...) Visas' backstory is the darkest of them all. And as such, it feels much more inappropriate for romantic endeavours than the others' do. There is a huge difference between being active participants in death and large scale slaughter, especially when actively instigating it and being aware of the consequences, contrasted to being an unsuspecting victim who feels all life around her die, and as if that wasn't devastating enough, to be made a slave to the one who destroyed it in the first place. i just can't agree with your assesment on the differences here. Trauma like that is extremely severe. It defies logic Visas isn't just a walking zombie or in a vegetative mental state. But she isn't, so she is in the game. But it really does feel off with Visas. As i said though, that interaction where she is reaching out and asks Exile to allow her to look upon him, that was a beautiful moment in the game. And it felt appropriate. However a relationship would seem to me to be entirely out of the question for a good long while, if ever. Visas doesn't even know who she is. It is only with Nihilus' death is she free of her servitude to him, but as we have seen, she already transfered that servitude onto Exile long before Nihilus died so she knew she would have a master no matter the outcome. No matter what way that is looked at, it is an unhealthy and imbalanced relationship. She puts everything in the Exile's hands, not only her life and her fate, but also her ability to hope and to feel. Surely Bao-Dur, Atton, and Sion's lives are dark and full of conflict and pain, but they have retained their individuality to a strong enough degree that they would not reshape who they are to please Exile. They would change surely, but they would not be without a sense of self nor of purpose unless she gave it them. Sion, actually, one could argue, would have been like that if he didn't have to die, but that he does make it kinda moot, and we don't know enough about him to decide that. Brianna changes herself far too readily and easily to try to please Exile. That bothered me in the game. Visas does the same thing though differently, as i wrote above. That is why i find the male Exile to be a weaker choice for cannon if it is based on romantic relationships, since the females are such Exile dependant characters. Even Atris is an Exile dependant character. The only significant difference between her in male and female Exile is Atris isn't romantically interested in female Exile. i find that to be distrubing actually, that these supposed strong women are so completely dependant on the protagonist. Whereas the males are not dependant on the protagonist. The same is seen in KotOR with Bastila. She becomes such a... lost soul who can't think for herself anymore once Malak gets to her. She then comes completely under Revan's control, and becomes even more dependant on Revan if s/he is light side. That is disturbing to me, thus to me, the better story as whole is female Exile. [Hekate]With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. [Jediphile]Precisely. Preciely what? Again my dim-wit sense is tingling... i'm the dim-wit. Not you [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]i don't think Atton so much idealizes Exile and sees her as perfection, although i do agree he sees she is dealing with her karmic burden better than he is dealing with his and he is a bit jealous of that, but he also sees her as a bit of a monster as he sees himself. It is a less personal and intimate type of monster, but that distance from it, that sterility of sorts (which Exile shares a bit with Bao-Dur), is the difference between them too. His is more raw, but also more honest. She has the calming effect of the Force and having had her lifetime being trained in it. Atton is disconnected and seeking to be connected. But he is terrified of it even in his being drawn to it. i thought the romantic/intimate interactions and possibilities among the guys were quite significant, moving, complex, and deep. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]My problem is that they all, except for Mical, have some many demons to fight with that a romance option seems to burden the characters beyond what they can take. They just don't seem to be able to handle it on top of all the other ghosts they must also deal with. Whereas Brianna has no such ghosts and is just unhealthily curious, and Visas is from the dead "hole in the force" (Nihilus) to the live "hole in the force" (Exile). Visas sees the life that Nihilus denied to her in the Exile, in spite of his problems, because he is the opposite to Nihilus - the "positive" hole in the force. i'll leave Visas out of it with this one since i dealt with that above. With Bao-Dur and Atton, i can see how intimacy could help them in different ways. It would be different from eachother, of course, because they are such different people. i already spoke of Bao-Dur, how intimacy with someone who does understand the ugliness of Malachor V as well as the responsibility of being the one who put it into action could be good for him. And corollary, it would be good for Exile since she would have to face stuff we assume she hasn't judging by her lack of reacting to things and by how she spoke with Bao-Dur about the MSG and whose fault it was, or rather wasn't. According to Exile, neither of theirs. Just a wee tad ' denial there, lass. i think Bao-Dur would go to great lengths to do what he could for his General, and that would include delving into things previously put aside because he did not have a pressing enough need to face them. Just by virtue of being in a relationship, especially with her, he couln't avoid all of that any longer. And Exile would finally be allowed to, made to, let herself feel again. And she couldn't hide behind her Jedi calm as she has up until that point because relationships are by their nature emotional and messy. With Atton, the reason it matters it is Exile is because he actually loves her. We don't find out in the game but it is in the cut Malachor V content. No one else would be able to reach him because no one else matters to him enough. Atton has a way of emotionally getting into people, and he would definitely do so with her. He already did way back on Peragus and the conversation they have on the Ebon Hawk before reaching Telos is one of the conversations wherein she shows the most personality in the whole game, that they mostly dump for the rest of it other than a few disjointed places on occasion . Atton, being more raw, emotional, and passionate would evoke such in her. Exile would bring some calm and centering to him. So i think their demons, although bad, are still ones they could heal together from. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Both Exile and Bao-Dur are a bit delusional about their guilt, in that they accept more responsibility than either of them should. And the Exile is far more in denial that Bao-Dur is. Yup, Exile is. But do they really blame themselves more than they should? i don't know. i think that is something no one could forget in a lifetime. It turns out an unexpected consequence of activating the MSG was the Force wound which bore Nihilus and ended-up destroying Katarr and goodness knows what else. That karmic burden, as Kreia spoke of when she told Exile of ripples and everything having far reaching consequences, is exactly what they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. Bao-Dur has a far more healthy understanding of that, but the price he has to pay is that emotional barren. Exile seems not to have faced it yet. And as Exile learns how to feel and deal with it, Bao-Dur would alos feel more and lend strength. Even if they weren't in an attraction based relationship. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Ah, but I think what she longs for is life and all the feelings that comes with it. Nihilus is death incarnate, and Visas has been breathing that death for too long. She longs desperately for all the emotions and feelings of life. Note her comments in the cutscene where we first see her and Nihilus: Visas: "I have felt it, too, my lord... a disturbance in the Force. It was difficult to make out, my lord. At first it was such a quiet thing, I did not notice it. But now I wonder if it has always been there, I merely could not hear it before.The sound built so slowly, yet when you listen for it, you can make out the strains, even over the background life of the universe. Do you feel it is a thr-{threat? Gets choked off by Nihilus crushing her windpipe with the Force}{Whispering, as if being choked}You... you are the darkness in which all life dies, milord. All life... exists to feed your power, and my life... {he releases her, she collapses - the next is quiet, subservient}my life is yours.I beg you... please... let me die.{Deferent, a little firmer, now that she has her second wind - she is answering a question}Yes... this disturbance... echoes through the Force. I can follow it to its source... and bring it to you. I will leave at once, my lord." i am confused. Where do you see her longing for emotions and life in that cut-scene? i got the opposite. She wants her torment to end. Hmm... again, it is fascinating how different perceptions can be... [Jediphile]No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] He brings background history to Exile. He brings Jedi history to the story. He ties the Republic in directly to the Jedi and the search for them which is directly related to what Exile is doing. He states the worlds the Jedi Masters are hidden on are connected and they together resonate the echoes amplifying their effect and that will lead to the death of the Force. Kreia tells him directly Exile is the cause of this effect and that she must die to which Mical tells her he will not let her harm Exile. He states Revan was attempting to unify the galaxy which then adds context to Kreia's comment on how Revan knew the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Yes, but I maintain that he does not bring anything to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and that you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. None of what you mention here is missing in the male Exile's story. The only difference is that the male Exile does not get the relevantion that Mical was to be his padawan and that is not significant to the story. And in fact, I do seem to recall the male Exile having an option of remembering Mical from the academy, so even then he might recall that piece of information, even if it is never said in his plot. Male Exile gets the same line as female Exile about him having a common face so no, the player wouldn't have a clue about any of that history if it weren't for Mical joining female Exile. i could have sworn he was the only one to make the direct connection of Revan attempting to protect the galaxy... i also thought he was the only one to make it clear, as he spoke with Kreia, Exile is a wound in the Force which is also the only time Kreia says Exile must therefore die. i could be wrong, but i vaguely remember thinking it was odd how that never gets pieced together for male Exile, and how not the Council nor Kriea say directly (other than with Mical) Exile is a wound in the Force and shoould die. But my memory isn't exactly stellar, as i've proved with Atris, so someone with a good memory would have to rebuke that. But i think the history he adds about Exile is enough on its own. It is the most the player finds out about pre-war Exile, IIRC. And certainly, male Exile doesn't find out so it isn't a big deal in that sense since the game can be finished without that knowledge, but one could argue the same about all the romance plots. Every outcome is basically the same (not in the cut Malachor V scenes) regardless of what the NPCs feel for the PC. Exile has very little to do with anything as far as that is concerned. So although Brianna adds some information about Kae and Yusanis, and we see a bit more of Atris, she really doesn't add anything either. Everything stays the same with or without her. But i question what does it matter what the NPC brings plot revelation wise, as i have from the begining. The NPCs should have their own merrits, be it skills, preferably personalities, their own backstories. Yes, people hate Mical. i know. But in a non-emotional and distanced evaluation, he isn't any worse than the other NPCs as far as his character and such go. How he was voice acted is a different story, as i said, it gave me the creeps. But Mical without all that overdone ickiness isn't all that bad. He is very skilled in many different areas, he makes a good fighter if leveled up as a soldier for a while and then he gets good Jedi powers, he is smart, and he is a nice change from all the angstiness among the rest of the core crew. [Jediphile]Actually, I felt a lot closer to Zez-Kai Ell, since he seemed to care far more about the Exile's situation and regret the masters decision than Kavar did, so I fear I'm going to have to doubt that greater meaning that you seem to think that Kavar carries in the game. Sorry. i understand why you like Zez-Kai Ell better than Kavar. i as a player felt the same way. i was looking forward to hearing what Kavar would have to say since he is supposed to have been one of Exile's Masters, and i was disappointed. But story wise, he is closer to Exile than Zez-Kai, and he is the only Master that was stated to have a personal bond with Exile. i'm not sure Zez-Kai showed much concern for Exile though. i thought he was more interested in his issues with the Council and ow he felt let down by them. Those 2 turned into very odd hypocrites on Dantooine though, so neither of them made any sense to me at that point anyway. Many went to war and those who did not had to pick-up the slack doing their Jedi things across the galaxy left with the others' abcenses. Seems perfectly plausible to me.[/color] [Jediphile]The time frame we're talking about is during the Mandalorian Wars, years before the Jedi Civil War. This was at a time when the jedi order had apparently been recovering from Exar Kun's Great Sith War for well over 30 years without particular incident. And we know that when Revan and Malak split the order, it was mostly the young jedi who heeded the call and went with them to war. Did this cost teachers? Yes, but given the context it makes no sense to me to suggest that it cost more teachers than young jedi students, since it consistently described as being all the young hotheads who rushed off the war, while the older and more experienced teachers generally stayed behind. Therefore Mical's statement of there being no teachers left makes no sense to me - if anything, there should have been more than before, since it was mostly the students who need teachers who had left. Any particular flaws with that logic? 30 years ago they lost a huge slew of Jedi. However long the war lasted, they didn't immediately jump into taking on a boat-load of padawans. They had to recooperate, get things sorted, and then go about Jedi life again. Their numbers were diminished. They were limited with the numbers of padawans they could teach. Slowly they add to their numbers as those padawans age. 30 years down the road, the younglings who came to them after the Exar Kun war head off to the Mandalorian Wars, those who, like Exile, are supposed to begin teaching new padawans. The number of older Jedi who survived the Exar Kun war are low, and now they have to go and take care of the extra responsibilities the first generation Jedi who left to go the Mandalorian wars were no longer fulfilling. So there logically should be a larger number of younglings who did not get to be taught since the older Jedi would have been teaching apprentices anyway, and many of those of their preceeding generation who were supposed to teach them, left. To me, that makes sense. [Jediphile]Then by what what standards would you evaluate significance of the characters? To me it would probably be something along the lines of: - Their impact on the game's greater plot. - How well written and characterized they are. - How consistently and logically - and dramatically - they act during the course of the plot. i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities [Jediphile]Fair enough, but that's still just presumption, since there is nothing to suggest Mical was ever in contact with Carth (or Cede) during the female Exile's plot. i can't contest that since i can't remember if Mical speaks of it or not. *pout* [Jediphile]I'm just glad we survived the "bumps" on the road... And obviously I would not still be here if I had a low opinion of you or your views. cue Snoopy-like happy dance and much smiling. Thank you. :D [Jediphile]And we finally agree on something... Maybe this'll set a trend... Gonna try to get to Atton stuff later...

As i was re-reading the posts, i realized something was misinterpreted from what i said. It was with regards to Mical and his not having a teacher. i'll put it in here and point out what went wrong: "The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... " It was clear to me when i wrote it that i was refering to how could Mical mistake such an important thing - meaning how could he not know if there were more teachers. i didn't even catch it in why you got angry, Jediphile, that it sounded to you as it i was saying how could you make such a mistake. i really was speaking of Mical and not you. It does sound bad when heard the other way. i am sorry about that confusion. [Jediphile]Now let's examine that quote again: Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." Now, from the first bold-faced part, we know that Atris has feelings for the male Exile. You may question at this point what those feelings are, but you don't get to question that they are there, unless you're adamant about denying Brianna's observations. Agreed [Jediphile]In the second bit I've put in bold-face, Brianna then goes on to talk about romantic love between jedi. Now, who are we talking about here? It is obvious that Brianna has "heard" of jedi who fall in love and leave the order (that's what her mother did), but she is not talking about Kae and Yusanis in this conversation. She is talking about love *between* jedi - as in both people must be jedi (and Yusanis was not). By the same logic, she is not talking about herself and the Exile either, because at this point Brianna is not a jedi herself (and it may still be doubted whether the Exile is a jedi or something else...). That leaves with only one possible conclusion. She is talking about the Exile and Atris. i get to this point further below... In my last post i stated Brianna asked Atris why Exile (regardless of which sex) has such and effect on her. She also states she has never seen Atris that disturbed before. Atris's own answer is the same regardless of Exile's sex, the whole cut-scene is the same regardless of Exile's sex. Atris says: "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside." That is the reason Atris is affected by Exile so deeply. That applies even if Exile is male. Now, let us indeed examine Brianna's quote in more detail: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss...." This is a sex-neutral statement. Atris herself said Exile is a hero to her. Atris preceiving the fall of her hero affected her deeply, and she feels loss as a result. Could it be infering Atris loved Exile and she feels his loss in the romantic way? Yes, of course it could. But that is the point. It is an assumption. "...It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit..." The choice of word "burns" does carry potential connotations of an attraction inclination. However, burns often to refers to anger as well ie: he felt a burning rage. The fact that it has been 10 years is not anymore significant in this dialogue as it was in Atris' first dialogue on Telos. Atris is proud, and Exile having left the Jedi Order hurting her is probably, at least in part, because she felt Exile turned her/his back on not only the Jedi, but on Atris specifically. Feeling one's hero's rejection is painful. Certainly it would have hurt her. As above these things can be indicative of romantic feelings. But they are not explicitly reserved for them. "...It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself..." Obviously Atris cannot come to terms with how she feels about Exile, nor the effect Exile has on her. She resorts to doing insane things at least in part because of it. We do not know if she fell because of her feelings for Exile, she might have fallen anyway. The very fact she has come to lay such importance on another person would be indicative she has some psychological issues, especially in light of the Jedi Code of detattachment, and the fact she was a Jedi Master. For Exile to have come to bear such a great meaning to Atris to the point where Atris has difficulty separating them as individuals required either an intence inherent flaw on the part of Atris' psyche, which most likely would have ruled her out as a Jedi Master candidate, or some life altering event occured wherein she came to irrevokably see the Exile as an extension of herself. Neither of those precludes hero worship nor attraction. Both are possible as the cause. However we do know, for both male and female Exile, Atris says the same line about dying inside when heros fall. That means regardless of the attraction or not, Atris saw Exile as a hero. That is the only solid piece of history between them the player gets to learn. Again, it is possible her obsession could have been made stronger due to attraction. But that is not necessarily the case. Wether Atris loved Exile romantically or not has little bearing on the story other than if she did, it would explain why Brianna was sent along. But one could also look at it in the light that Atris distrusts male Exile more than female Exile so that is why she sent Brianna along. i am not saying that is the case, i am only saying it hasn't been revealed in game therefore we do not know. The question of the significance of Atris loving Exile also comes into play. As i mentioned above, it is completely not important in the story progression if she does love male Exile. Everything unfolds the same with regards to Atris in the story. It may be easier to understand what went on in the Telos academy after Dantooine if she does. On the other hand, it seems not to really matter 'cause she does the same thing no matter which Exile incarnation confronts her. She slays all her servants even when it is a LS Exile. It may also very well be more interesting, compelling, whatever, to people if she loves him. On the other hand, it may be more compelling if Atris loved Brianna and sent her to join Exile and company as a test of her loyalty and to see if she would remain the pure maiden Atris envisioned her to be. That could also explain why Atris hurt Brianna but did not kill her. Who knows? Now, for Brianna's questions: "...You... you did not care for her, did you?..." It would seem Exile's answer to that question is what is important here. And in every possible answer, IIRC, it is a 'no'. Which then prompts Brianna explaining why she asked with: "...Atris is beautiful. And wise..." Indicative of Brianna's feelings of not measuring up the the ideal of Atris she has come to see in her. It could be her saying that to gauge Exile's reaction as well. It could be Brianna naively aiding Atris' cause rather than her own by reminding Exile at a less favourable time of Atris' appeal if she (Brianna) wanted to make herself a potential love interest to him. Or it could be she is testing him and pushing him a little to see if he'll take the bait. We don't know because the devs for whatever reason were satisfied to leave all these things vague and not to explain much of anything. We know Brianna is attracted to Exile. We know Brianna looks up to Atris. We know Brianna has made a vow not to follow the Jedi teachings, and she has a history wherein her loyalty is very important. It would seem obvious Brianna does not want Exile to have had a personal sexual relationship wtih Atris. So her asking about it makes sense. She even asks about it hesitantly because obviously, it is a difficult subject to broach. Brianna may very well suspect Atris has an attraction to Exile, but her asking about it does not prove Atris did. She doesn't say "I had thought you would have been pulling a Bindo" nor any other definite statement where she indicates Atris definitely loved Exile. Moreover, she asks Exile if he cared for Atris. That is her primary concern. Not if Atris cared for him. Since Atris is the mistress and she presents herself as "the last Jedi" and as an educated, good-hearted, concerned for the wellfare of the galaxy kind of person, it would make sense Brianna asks because she wants to know how she measures up to Atris. A jealousy and rivalry thing. We already know Brianna gets very jealous of Visas. Brianna states Atris is beautiful and so on. These would indicate Brianna asking is about herself and her own feelings moreso than because she believes Atris loved Exile. Also, i doubt Atris would have told anyone if she did. So someone suspecting it is not proof it was there. Again, i add it can be interpreted in the way you stated Jediphile. i am not disagreeing with that point at all. All i'm saying is there are many other interpretations as well. "...I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret..." *warning sign held out: humour ahead. Ensure safety procautions taken* She has "heard" indeed... *danger has passed, resume usual reading* It seems as if she is speaking of her mother here. She said loving "another" rather than "eachother". And this is exactly what her mother and father did. They kept it secret and her mother specifically left the Jedi Order. None of that applies to Atris nor Exile. Since her personal history is so important to her whereas whether Atris loves Exile is speculation, i would argue she is thinking of that rather than of Exile and Atris. And i argue it not to be argumentative, rather i argue it because it seems as if that is much more important to her than Atris' love life. "...I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see..." This is just info gathering and her restating her interest in Exile by re-expressing she wanted to know if he had been involved. And she doesn't say with Atris, just an involved in general. [Jediphile]You have been adamant in denying that the love between is openly there in the game, but it is right here. So as long as you continue to deny it, it seems pointless to me to discuss the matter further. Yes i have, and i still do because of the points i made above, and that it is never actually said. And the reason this is a point of contention at all is the point that when Sion and Atris are compared directly to eachother on that basis, Sion actually speaks his feelings. He doesn't actually say he loves her. But it is included as a romance aspect because there is a distinct difference in how Sion speaks to male vs female Exile. From the information we have gathered, there is no such distinction in Atris' speach. i can understand why you are frustrated, i am frustrated too. It must be seen as just as blarringly obvious to you Atris loves Exile, as her love for him seems equally obscure to me. Perhaps they left it intentionally unstated specifically to be able to reconcile Atris' actions regardless of Exile's sex. But they went ahead and had Bastila love male Revan and not female Revan, so i do doubt they would withold saying it directly on that basis. i know they are different developers and the game was terribly cut and unfinished. But we can only know by what has been revealed in the game and somewhat in the left-over content in the programming. Given that, the fact is Atris is just as passionate about Exile even if Exile is female. The only reason any of this matters is if Atris is counted as a love interest in the first place. It is not as if Exile gets to declare his love or to reject her. Those simply aren't options. So way back when this debate began on page one and female Exile was said to be lesser to male Exile on the basis of the romances, i got irked at the dismissiveness of the reasoning for it so i voiced why that is not necessarily true. We seem to be coming to cross purposes over Brianna. To make things clear; i did not say Brianna is useless nor pointless, nor anything like that. In the early posts, the specific comparisson between Brianna's and Mical's past ties to Exile was drawn. It was not about one being better than the other, it was about which one had a tie to Exile's past. Period. That is all. Mical has a significant, direct link to Exile (ie potential padawan). Brianna does not (never knew Exile personally). No judgement. No putting down. In whatever way that point is used to argue male vs female Exile is a different matter. [Jediphile]Calling that weakness only has meaning if Leia was helpless. I do not agree that she was. But she's a diplomat, whereas Luke is a jedi knight. Diplomacy takes time. Luke didn't give her that time, so it's unfair to mark Leia as weak because Luke couldn't be bothered to give her time to make her diplomacy work. You completely forget that Leia tells 3PO to translate, and when the Ewoks still won't listen, Luke cuts Leia off and tells 3PO to tell the Ewoks that he'll be angry and use his magic if they don't listen. i just rewatched that scene and you are right, i had forgotten she does try diplomacy. She says "3-PO tell them they must be set free". The Ewoks disregard that suggestion and then proceed to bring out the torches. She doesn't say anything and just watches from that point on. When i wrote my post i remembered the time between her speaking and the time it took Luke to come up with his plan as being longer than it really was, so her inaction seemed more pronounced. Luke did not cut Leia off though, and she did just stay silent when they brought out the torches. But my argument about her weakness does not stem from if she were held captive. A captive can only do so much by the fact they are being held captive. i meant because she isn't held captive and does nothing more than one attempt at intervening, that to me seemed to weaken her role. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] It wouldn't matter if every single one of the those captured by the Ewoks were female and if it was Luke who was enslaved by Jabba instead. In that case Luke's predicament would have been more humiliating, moreso if he was forced to wear only a codpiece. Luke actively prevented Han from getting violent with the Ewoks so their capture was not from them being incompetent. Luke could lift the massive door into Jabba's place so certainly he could have knocked all the Ewoks on their butts if he had wanted to. It shouldn't be overly personally humiliating for them to have been captured in that way when they allowed it to happen. Being tied up and carried on a pole is humiliating, but Leia was chained around her neck, treated as a slave, and as a sexual object. That is more humiliating, especially with a crowd of unsavoury spectators to gawk and leer and her humiliation lasted longer than theirs. [Jediphile]Han sure didn't seem to me to feel that way while the Ewoks were trying to light a fire under him... *Hekate puts up a warning sign: caution: joke ahead* i thought Han was pretty busy thinking "Put it out! Put it out!!" *Hekate removes warning sign* [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]As far as the thong goes... it is a point of contention for me. It was not so much that it was in there as opposed to its execution. And it is a repeated theme in the SW universe i've been exposed to and i find it irksome. [Jediphile]Fair enough, but that's your own personal opinion. I don't really disagree, I just don't think it's particularly relevant to the discussion. Then why take issue with my issue with it in the first place? It is there in the game and it is annoying. It is also demeaning to the characters in its execution, and to the players by suggesting the product will sell better if they throw in Brianna in... that attire as well as forcing that Vogga scene. It is also relevant to the topic of male vs female Exile since it has been mentioned in other threads being able to see Brianna... so clothed is a reason male Exile should be made cannon. [Jediphile]Actually, I don't think so, because the plot generally seems well thought out and compelling. It's just that it's told badly in these cases. There was a good reason for this in K1, because they made Revan amnesic, and so it was obvious why he could remember nothing of his past. In K2 they make the Exile, ahem, "not amnesic", but it doesn't matter because the player is still kept in the dark. The way to tell a story like that is to bring up all the points that will be important later early in the game, so that the player is at least given a clue as to what his own character has experienced. This can be done through flashback cut-scenes or conversation. For example, Kreia or Atton could have asked the Exile a lot of questions about his past, and the Exile could then choose to answer or dodge the question, but even if he dodged it, the player would still get to see what the answer was from the possible conversation paths and so have this information revealed to him at a point when it doesn't seem quite so significant. In K1 they actually did it more skillfully in the cutscene where Bastila and company "defeat" Revan, because it just looks like plot background thrown in there for dramatic effect, and it isn't until much later that you realize that it is really lost memories resurfacing for your main character. This would have been even easier in K2, since the context is obvious for the Exile's past, but instead it's just abandoned Agreed [Jediphile]Never called you that. I just observed that I didn't find the plot to be imcomplete when playing the male Exile... It was a joke. Trying to lighten the mood. A character in BGII says "Well, bless me for being an idiot" so i thought i'd follow suit by taking a jab at myself since i did not understand the whole wound in the Force and echoes plots with all the contradictions inherent in the game the first time around, and i sitll don't past the 7th time around. My humour attempt was foiled again, i see [Jediphile]It is given more weight because it has heavier impact on the story. All the romance options with the companions (Atton (what little is there), Disciple, Handmaiden, and Visas) is not particularly relevant to the greater plot. You can explore it if you wish, but you don't have to. Atris' feelings for the Exile are fairly significant, however, especially in the male Exile's case. I cannot remember what was to trigger her becoming Darth Traya instead of Kreia, but I'm pretty sure her love for the Exile and Brianna's "betrayal" was probably part of it. Still, that's probably a non-issue, since it was not in the game and shouldn't be, since it didn't make sense for her to suddenly take over all of Kreia's goals. But Atris is still significant, because she is a trigger for Kreia to returning to the postition of Darth Traya. Atris in indeed significant. Agreed. Atris' love for Exile is not for the reasons i probably over explained above. If Atris did become Darth Traya because of her love for male Exile, than hell yeah, that would be uber-significant. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] The point of contention with regards to Sion's feelings for Exile was they were not explained. The player has no context of why he cares for her. i said the same is true for Atris. The player has no clue why Atris cares for Exile. One certainly can assume a great many reasons why she might however, we simply do not know. We do not know if they were in close proximity to eachother when Exile was on Dantooine, we do not know if they share a Force bond, we don't even know if she loves him at all unless someone can enlighten us on that. But even if she does, it is not given context either, so given Sion actually speaks with female Exile about his feelings whereas Atris does not speak to male Exile of hers, one cannot dismiss the significance of Sion's impact as a potential romantic involvement. [Jediphile]Whatever argument you can make about lack of knowledge about Atris' feelings for the Exile will hurt the female Exile's relationship to Atris far more, because we don't know what that is founded on either. Um, no. i am loathe to requote but since it is short i will Atris: "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside" which applies equally to both sexes. [Jediphile]It is far easier to accept that Atris may have secretly loved the male Exile without any details than it is to accept that Atris admired the female Exile without any details of what that was, because that makes no sense in the context of the greater plot of the KotOR games. Revan and Malak are consistently described as the most admired young jedi who left the order to fight the Mandalorian Wars. The Exile, however, was not. And to suddenly throw it in there with no explanation therefore hurts the story. Sure, you could argue that Atris admired the Exile for other reasons than Revan or Malak, but then that begs - no *demands* - the question of what that was. The story therefore becomes woefully incomplete without that informaton. While it is true no one can control whom they love, it's also true no one can control whom they admire nor feel a kinship to. Feelings are feelings. Attraction, lust, love, are not the only intence and not based on reason emotions. i accept it is easier for you to accept Atris loves Exile as opposed to Atris hero worshipping Exile. i find both equally acceptable. While it would be interesting to know what happened to make Atris value Exile so highly, i don't feel it is necessary. That Atris is as upset about it as she is, that Atris told Brianna she thinks of Exile as a hero is enough to get the point across. If we were to want other things to be explained, we would be left equally wanting since so many things are left in the dark. Now, to make a connection to this particular ability to accept love without requiring and explanation, i present Sion. Except he does explain why he finds her beautiful, he does explain what he sees in her. Why he doesn't see that in male Exile since they are in essence the same person? i don't know. Maybe he has a weakness for female Jedi. Now going back to Atris, we know she respects Exile regardless of Exile's sex. We do not get an explination of why she would love male Exile. When contrasting the two, Sion's 'romance' arc, how it played out in-game, was apparent and direct. Atris' unfortunately, was not. [Jediphile]Yet you're perfectly willing to accept that side of it, so that does not seem to me to judge the sides by the same conventions, as you demand that I do. How is it judging the sides by different conventions? Of course i am perfectly willing to accept Atris sees Exile as a hero because she said so herself. i didn't make that up. She does not say she finds him attractive, nor does she tell him she loves him, nor any of that. Sion does tell Exile he cares about her. i didn't make that up either. There is no bias in stating those facts. There is no differential in what i have stated. There isn't even a judgement call involved with that. [Jediphile]Besides, even if we can rationalize things about the Exile past in Atris' case, the same is not true for Sion. Exile and Atris knew each other. Exile and Sion did not. That means that whatever relationship there is in the latter case *MUST* be there for us to see unfold in the game - there can be no unseen nuances or details, because you play the Exile from beginning to end with no interruptions in which such details might have taken place. The Exile and Sion only ever meet three times. First on Peragus, when they don't even interact. Then on Korriban, where they fight, but don't really talk. And finally on Malachor V, when the do talk, but still try to kill each other. There is no time for a relationship to build, and even there was, it still makes no sense. I mean: Sion: "Gee, I love you, but the plot still says I must kill you. No hard feelings, darling?" Exile: "No, of course not. That's fine, my dear..." It's just so idiotic that it defies belief and insults me as a player at the same time Oi. i never said it is the most cohesive story plot on the planet. Nor did i say it fits in with any romantic ideal. Sion's a mess. Both in his body and head. Some people will be put off by it, and some people will find it compelling. Just as some people will find Atris' romance plot repulsive, and others compelling. By your own admission, love and attraction are not feelings one can control. So Sion feels love for female Exile because he just does. i do not understand why if Sion developed those feelings throughout the game, we must have been shown it unfold. Technically though, they do in a way with him letting her go on Korriban saying she deserves at least that, and then on Malachor V he tells her why he cares about. He has had a long time to think things over and to think about her. She is more important to Kreia than he is. That draws him to her. They don't show that in cut-scenes throughout the game, but they do have him state it in-game. It is possible it was cut content and they intended to add alot more with their backstory. As a player i found it odd that was suddenly there, and even more odd when she had the choice of telling him he has been a presence in her mind as well. That would indicate they were thinking of eachother and they were somehow connected at the very least. But since the player isn't given a feel for Exile with many things, this being one of them, i just accepted it, as i accepted Exile had fought on Dxun, because it was one of the precious few things that did not have a contradiction in it. i could actually understand it. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] And since weight is given to Atris' love by virtue of a possible lengthy time she and Exile knew eachother, than it is impossible to write off Mical's significance to Exile since his connection to her is actually revealed in-game. A padawan-Jedi relationship is a very significant one, from what i can tell. How is that not important and binding? [Jediphile]Because even if you're right, the consequence of that observation is that if the female Exile had remained at the academy instead of running off to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, then she should be the last person in the universe to ever teach Mical. His feelings for her means that any emotions for her are doomed in any event, since Jedi may not have such feelings, especially not between master and padawan who have far stronger ties than other jedi do to each other. This would make far more sense if the Exile is male and there is no love in the picture. And so it again hurts the credibility of the plot in the case of the female Exile. i see it as a bit of a stretch to go as far as saying it hurts the credibility of the plot if Mical loves her. The same plot hurting potential holds true for Atris. i know we've been through the question of why a Jedi Master loving a Jedi is not plot hurting whereas a padawan having a thing for his potential master is. The fact it could contribute to her fall does not prevent the origin of either of their feelings from being of equal worth. The reason Mical having had feelings for female Exile isn't a big enough of a deal to break the plot nor to hurt the credibility of the plot is because he was a kid at the time. He had some feelings of attraction for her. But they weren't insane all consuming feelings. Nor hero worshipping obsession as with Atris. They seemed to be more of respect and admiration as atested to when he tells her she is a natural leader and a the younglings she taught could feel it. That does not translate into unhealthy sexual perversion. As he aged, he likely would master his feelings better. And if not, than that would then have had to be dealt with, or they might even have pulled a Bindo. But none of that really matters since it is speculation and can hardly be used as a reason to discredit the in-game plot. The other point is, just because Exile is female doesn't necessarily mean Mical did like her when he was younger. My inclination is to believe he had a bit of a crush on her, but it isn't actually stated. She did leave a lasting impression on him though. And that is what enriches their background story. [Jediphile]The potential I have pointed to above? Excuse me, but I need to find my bucket again... An antagonist having an affinity for the protagonist can be interesting, but only if it has relevance to the plot, and that is not the case here - it in no ways stops Sion from trying to continually kill the Exile. It has no impact or significance to the plot. The only difference is a few spoken lines about Sion's feelings, which are not very compelling, and which I do not find consistent to his character, in which case it hurts him in the plot. *Warning: humourous intent ahead* So, i take it you don't like Sion then? *Humourous attempt complete* Again, back to the multitude of other occurences which turn out the same regardless of the choices the protagonist makes. The first large one that comes to mind: all the Jedi Masters get killed no matter what Exile does. Next one: Kreia dies no matter what Exile does even if in the LS rendition she just does so seemingly without cause. Next: Peragus gets blown up regardless of what Exile does. There are more, as i'm sure you are well aware of. And a few spoken lines is more than Atris gets with regards to her loving Exile. In the cut content, Sion becomes very relevant to the plot, but until Team Gizka finishes the restoration, we simply won't know. That wasn't the point though. The point was in an earlier post it was stated he turned to the dark side because of Padme. [Jediphile]Please don't infer that I said that. You're ignoring that I said Anakin used Padme as a catalyst for turning to the dark side. I never said it was Padme's responsibility, and I don't think it's paritcularly polite to twist my words to suggest that I did so, and then proceeding to disagree with me on that basis. i was basing it on this quote: i interpreted that as saying he fell because of Padme. i should have been more specific with qualifying the statement further since there are various interpretations possible to the basic fell because of Padme satetement. So i'll say i didn't mean to infer you were saying it was her fault he chose to do what he did. i just meant i thought you were saying he wouldn't have fallen if she hadn't been in the picture. i was tracing the Padme argument back in my previous post to explain why the Sandpeople slaughter did not have anything to do with the earlier issue of Anakin's fall being due to Padme. *grumble* difficult to convey meaning without body language and tone of voice to judge *grumble* [Jediphile]Once Visas confronts the Exile, however, Nihilus' control over her is broken, and becomes far more determined and self-aware. And she becomes dedicated to the goal of destroying Nihilus, so that other worlds will not suffer the same fate as Katarr. Visas is willing to destroy herself in the pursuit of that goal, because in some ways she feels guilt over having survived when all others on Katarr died. [Hekate]Yes. And that is why i thought she was easier for Exile to read and why Exile wouldn't be too worried about her betraying him. [Jediphile] Sorry, but that makes no sense to me... Since she is dedicated to stopping Nihilus, there would be no reason for her to betray Exile since they share the same goal. [Jediphile]I may see this side of Visas, but then I'm rationalizing after knowing the full story. I really was unsure all the way through playing the game, so I doubt the Exile was ever certain of this, because I sure wasn't. i find that interesting, because as i stated before, i had no doubt whatsoever of her dedication to Exile in the first run through. i guess in part that is because with Visas, the more Exile spoke with her, the more she opened-up about herself and she spoke more of why she is loyal to Exile. i did doubt Atton though, especially after he revealed that part of his history. i guess that is in part because Exile could never know if he was lying nor to what extent, Atton kept voicing his discontent with the situation and seemed edgy and as if he wanted to leave, and he openly mistrusted everybody. Then when the secret came out, he could have bolted because it not only is "it's what i do", but also because he doesn't like to be manipulated and Kreia was really pushing him hard. The other reason is because as a Sith assassin, he got alot of control over people. With Exile, he had a distinct lack of being the one in control. Those are some of the reasons i thought he'd take off. [Jediphile]No, that doesn't add up for me, since that would suggest Atris only ever admired the Exile, and not Kavar, Vandar, Zhar, Kae, Zez-Kai Ell, Revan, or anyone else we can think of. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Admiration without explanation is not convincing enough. Love, however, is. And that doesn't add up for me because she can easily admire a whole slew of people, but she saw Exile as a hero and not the others. i doubt on could explain hero worship much easier than love anyway. It is just something that 'clicks', it just happens. [Jediphile]I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Bao-Dur simplifying things, seeing things as he would a schematic so to speak, requires him to be able to see the big picture for him to simplify it. He does not only see bits and pieces, he sees the whole and how it all works, than he reduces it to a manageable size. An engineer has to consider not only the building itself, but also the soil, the weather conditions, the weight of what is being housed in the structure and well as that of those who enter it and the materials used to build it, etc. It also requires complexity of thought to be able to reduce the big into cohesive and workable small. As in math, to simplify one must first expand. [Jediphile]So you basically accept my analysis and then just apply the exact opposite conclusion to it? LOL Yes, actually, that is exactly what i am doing. i found how you explained it very interesting and appropriate for Bao-Dur. He himself says he sees things as parts. The only area we diverge on is the conclusion. i think one has to have complex thought processes to see things in webs to be able to understand how things interact, rather than a linear thought process of simple reduction. [Jediphile]Sorry, but it doesn't seem very plausible to suggest that Bao-Dur is a complex person because he simplifies things. I don't see at all how you can reach that conclusion. It seems more to me like you just throw it in there because you don't like the idea of Bao-Dur being an uncomplicated guy, but in doing so, I think you deny his greatest strength, which is his ability to bring things down to a level where he can deal with them. That ability is what makes him able to deal with his own dark past, while Atton struggles with a burden that is by comparison not so troubling as Bao-Dur's would seem to be. i reach that conclusion because as stated above, he can see the big picture, how things connect, and how to manipulate the big into manageable and cohesive small parts. And it is exactly what you say about him breaking things down to where he can manage them that i think requires alot of awareness and understanding to be able to do. Taking apart a machine, for instance, to keep track of the parts to be able te re-assemble it, one has to understand how to group the parts together. To be able to do that properly, one has to be able to see how the machine works, what each part's function is, and how they relate to all the others. Alot of people have tunnel vision, and when they look at that metaphorical machine, they get lost because they cannot fathom the complexity of the machine. Bao-Dur not only sees it, he can manipulate it so he can better handle it. He thinks on many different levels and sees things from many different perspectives. It is a shame he is given so little dialogue in the game. But he, moreso than the rest of the cast, really understands himself, i think. And to be able to do that, he has to be able to see clearly and to be able to take all these various factors into consideration and see how they intreact with eachother. But that is just how i see it. [Jediphile]Which is precisely why I prefer no romance between the Exile and Bao-Dur. And that is true in the male Exile's case. i don't get why complicating things for him is bad. i think it might just be the stimulous he needs to shake him out of his veneer of calm and deal with things he hasn't been able to since some of those have to do with how others perceive him and his feeling he cannot be loved by another. Atton has similar difficulties but in different ways. [Jediphile]That does not seem to be a good argument for a female Exile, since Bao-Dur can find just the same understanding and relief from the male Exile - and without the complication of love in there, which probably makes the whole thing more honest and above board. i think the exact opposite would be true. That he isn't being shaken by attraction allows him to keep himself removed, almost emotionally and psychologically sterilized if you will, and that ultimately is worse for him. But once attraction is thrown in, by the very nature of that depth of intimacy, it would force him out of his comfort zone and he would certainly be challenged by it, but he would also grow. And growth is good And the fact he would be intimate with someone who understands his terrible karmic burden would be soulagent (sorry, slipped into French...) a mix of soothing and unburdening, which makes for less resistance to his being able to become intimate at all. [Jediphile]I don't see why he would need her to love him in order to find forgiveness. In fact, if she did love him, he would then have to struggle with whether she truly forgave him for his acts or whether she just says so because she loves, takes pity on him, and wants him to not blame himself anymore. And as I've said before, that's why I prefer the male Exile here too. i don't get it why nor how with female's Exile's romance options, they all are in doubt and that love between them would compromise the integrity of the characters and the plot. Atton and Bao-Dur both wouldn't believe she loves them and it would be detrimental if she did, and Mical was to be her padawan so that is wrong, and Sion doesn't have enough grounds to love her so that also is not acceptable. i am saddened by this i find Atton, Bao-Dur, and Sion have very dark and disturbing histories and connections to Exile, with alot of potential for very powerful interactions and meaningful storytelling. With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. i don't think Atton so much idealizes Exile and sees her as perfection, although i do agree he sees she is dealing with her karmic burden better than he is dealing with his and he is a bit jealous of that, but he also sees her as a bit of a monster as he sees himself. It is a less personal and intimate type of monster, but that distance from it, that sterility of sorts (which Exile shares a bit with Bao-Dur), is the difference between them too. His is more raw, but also more honest. She has the calming effect of the Force and having had her lifetime being trained in it. Atton is disconnected and seeking to be connected. But he is terrified of it even in his being drawn to it. i thought the romantic/intimate interactions and possibilities among the guys were quite significant, moving, complex, and deep. [Jediphile]I don't think it's a question of forgiveness. In Bao-Dur's case, I think the past just is, and they have little choice but to live with it. That Bao-Dur doesn't blame the Exile is probably because he feels that he is himself more responsible for having created the MSG in the first place (sort of like Oppenheimer). He doesn't blame the Exile because the Exile did what he/she had to do, and Bao-Dur understands and accepts that. It was war, after all. The Exile, of course, sees it the other way, and does take responsibility, because he/she gave the order. Psychologically they both do the same thing - they accept the responsibility because it somehow gives them control over the situation, and that is easier to accept than that were not to blame, since that makes them apathetic and unable to alter the outcome, their choices void and meaningless. That is why they both understand each other on this level. Yup. But i think his not blaming Exile at all and rather blaming himself entirely is a little delusional. [Jediphile]However, I still think this trauma works better with attraction or love in the picture. That may even be why Bao-Dur was removed from being a romance option for the female Exile. It was the right decision too, I think, but the possibility of it is still there obscuring the matter. i feel the same way you do about Bao-Dur and Exile as i do about Visas and Exile. i think her trauma is far too severe for her to be able to really be able to cope with intimacy. i think it might have a chance down the road, after she has had a while to sort things out after she had partially been able to make peace with herself on the Ravager. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i keep insisting on the fact we have no clue how Atris came to be attracted to male Exile nor why because it is fact. And that this very same aspect of the player not knowing why Sion cares for female Exile is enough to discount him, than that has to apply to Atris too. That was the point i was making. It is wrong to apply different standards under the same point. [Jediphile]But apparently not where Atris' admiration for the female Exile is concerned? Be careful - standards can be double-edged swords... " *danger: humour flailing wildly* Yes, they can, when one is not careful... *flailing has decisited* Sion does explain why he cares for Exile. Atris does explain her respecting Exile by stating she sees Exile as a hero. [Jediphile]Brianna revealed it, as I have already pointed out. If you refuse to accept that, then the discussion is pointless. Countered above. [Jediphile]No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. He brings background history to Exile. He brings Jedi history to the story. He ties the Republic in directly to the Jedi and the search for them which is directly related to what Exile is doing. He states the worlds the Jedi Masters are hidden on are connected and they together resonate the echoes amplifying their effect and that will lead to the death of the Force. Kreia tells him directly Exile is the cause of this effect and that she must die to which Mical tells her he will not let her harm Exile. He states Revan was attempting to unify the galaxy which then adds context to Kreia's comment on how Revan knew the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i am not ignoring nor dismissing the fact Brianna's parents have ties to Revan and to Malahor V. Exile has a tie to Kae if she was a soldier under her/him, and if Kae was killed because of the MSG. Yusanis is tied to Revan and not Exile since he was the leader of the Echani and had his own command. We do not know if Yusanis and Exile were aquainted or not, though since it isn't mentioned, as with Kae, it is likely they were not aquainted. The original disagreement was that Brianna had no first-hand personal ties to Exile's past. She still doesn't. That her parents did means little since that would be like saying hypothetically if she knew Master Kavar that would link her and Exile. It wouldn't. That would only mean they know a person in common. [Jediphile]For the life of me I cannot understand why Brianna must have direct relevance to the Exile's past to be considered a valid character. I really do not get why you insist that she must in order to have relevance. In fact, I think the opposite is true - if any and all characters in the game must - by whatever means - have direct relevance to the Exile's past, then the plot becomes convoluted and implausible. The Exile is not the center of the universe that everything resolves around, nor should he or she be. It is far more interesting that some of the characters have their own rich stories that add nuances to unfolding plot. i am not saying she does have to have direct relevance to Exile's past. *mild frustration* i know i write alot in attempting to explain things, but i wonder if it is being read. *moving along* i have stated numerous times that is only one point of comparisson, which going back numerous posts (of various authors) pertained to a Brianna-Mical "showdown" of sorts wherein Mical's importance was being questioned.. That is all. And i agree with the rest of what you said. [Hekate]Brianna is personally tied to Atris, that is true. And Atris it tied to Exile. But until Brianna met Exile, other than Atris' obsession with him and all that is related to that, he meant nothing to her, nor she to him. And that was used to as a basis to contrast that to Mical who indeed had personal ties to Exile. It is a fair comparisson to make. Just as it is fair to make the comparisson that Brianna has a tie to Atris that Mical doesn't.Actually, he does. Substitute Mical with Atton. What are you confused about? If it is at how Mical has a tie to Atris that would be through the Dantooine academy assuming that is where she was as well and not on Coruscant. [Jediphile]No, Kavar's relationship with the Exile is immaterial. He is no more or less significant than, say, Zez-Kai Ell. So that is a non-issue. "...it is important to their relationship" Them being tied in that way, and that he refers to Exile as 'friend' indicates they have a different type of relationship than Exile has with the other Masters. Is it earth shattering? No. But does it cary meaning? Yes. He is the only Jedi Master to be on closer terms to Exile therefore his death would cary more weight than the others'. [Jediphile]It's just another gaping plot-hole for poor Mical, though one that I can thankfully sidestep by simply playing a male Exile. LOL [Jediphile]Well, excuse me for pointing out gaping plot holes... I shall endeavour not to do such heinous acts in the future ***see note on top of page**** [Hekate] Was that *choked with emotion* sarcasm? Et tu Jediphile, et tu. i refered to your sarcasm thusly since you later told me not to be sarcastic. But i do understand why you got angry. gomen nasai. [Jediphile]A dog tends to bite when you repeatedly step on its tail... Besides, implying that someonebiased is trolling, since you cannot in good faith expect a constructive response. And it's poison to the discussion. If I see a plothole I will point it out, and if the other side then responds with accusations, then I will be... disappointed, since I do not think it was an unfair observation to make in the first place. i would really like this bit of unpleasantness to get sorted out. Taking what i wrote at the begining of this post into consideration, i would like to think you can see how that was not a shot at you. Now i see because of the word order it does sound wrong. Mea culpa! :'( i had no intent whatsoever in trolling (i take that to mean insulting). i do maintain Mical would know if there were teachers or not as far as his credibility as a character goes. The notion there were not enough Masters to go around also is easy for me to believe. Many went to war and those who did not had to pick-up the slack doing their Jedi things across the galaxy left with the others' abcenses. Seems perfectly plausible to me. [Hekate]Perhaps too strongly but certainly not unjustified. i was getting very frustrated by the time i wrote that and i probably shouldn't have, but you did use the fanboy argument against people who defended Revan in a different thread so i thought i'd throw it in as a little touch of irony and humour, especially since the parenthesis directly preceeded my comment of rational debate. That's why i added the thong reference too, for humour. [Jediphile]One of us did not find it amusing... I geneally don't when people basically tells me I'm biased. Calling it a plothole that Mical claims nobody was left to teach him is not the same as claiming that "Oh my DS Revan pwn everyone ever in the whole galaxy", at least it isn't to me, and therefore inferring so does not seem like a very kind thing to do. Especially when I have already pointed to things in Brianna that made me prefer Visas over her as a romance option. Well everyone does have different senses of humour. i thought it funny and even a little clever too with the word placement setting up a contrast. i just don't like how things feel uneven, so i try to even things out. i am not a blindingly clever humourist but i am still allowed to joke. The problem lies with interpretation, and delivery too. However, i do feel there is a bias in some of the arguments you make, just as you feel there is a bias in mine. For instance, the comparisson between Mical's and Brianna's personal ties to Exile. i do keep restating it is only a comparisson basis of one aspect of the characters though, and it is certainly not the only factor. i have stated numerous times how i find evaluating a character's worth on what they bring to the overarching plot to be dubious. But i do debate those terms since they were presented. [Jediphile]If that were true, Telos should have been doomed in the male Exile's story, since Mical is not there to warn them. Besides, who says they were warned at all? The whole assumption during that part of the game is that Citadel Station will fall if the Exile does not stop Nihilus, which does not suggest to me that there was any warning, or Carth/Cede would have called in more of the republic fleet to defend Telos. And even if we suspect that they were warned, I find it just as likely that Kreia leaked this information, since she wanted the Exile to come to Telos and defeat both Atris and Nihilus. Again i feel as though what i wrote wasn't read. i stated Carth thanks Exile regardless of Exile's sex therefore he must have found out some other way with male Exile. But that still doesn't mean Mical isn't doing his duty to the Republic while travelling with Exile & co. which is important to the overarcing storyline. And with that i am just too darned tired to write more. So i'll finish with the Atton issue tomorrow. Jediphile, i would like you to know i am enjoying debating this with you, i respect your opinions, and that i have no intent of trolling nor doing any other nasty stuff. i do regret there has been this much misunderstanding, but looking on the bright side, it killed a few potentially monotonous hours And i am glad others have joined in as well