Hekate

If they dealt with it properly by making good cut scenes and explained Revan's story, it would be annoying but bearable. Killing Revan off without giving her/him a good send off would be just so plain wrong. Revan is the central figure to the KotOR series during this particular time frame and is vital in dealing with the looming 'true' Sith threat and whatever it is s/he had started in the Unknown Regions. It would be really pointless to kill Revan off in vain since Revan is the only one who has any clue what the hell is going on. Then don't call the game KotOR III. Call it something else since it will have absolutely nothing to do with KotOR. i would be royally miffed if they dropped the plot and made III have nothing to do with the original nor the second. There are lots of possibilities but off the top of my head, Exile would have lost her/his connection to the Force with Kreia's death since it is my theory s/he is a wound in the Force and could only channel the Force through Kreia. Therefore Exile would either go back to wandering and such, would assist with strengthening the Jedi Order, or would seek out to find another person to bond with as s/he did Kreia so s/he can use the Force again, unless Kreia left her consciousness in Exile when she fell to her asumed death. Revan, i would think, would be doing multiple things at once. S/he would be strategizing and such with regards to the 'true' Sith, and at the same time dealing with that thing s/he started way back. Probably figuring out how to work both elements against eachother. And while doing that, masterminding how to get the rights to open a Starbucks franchise among the 'true' Sith so s/he can get them to fund her/his campaign against them. Or something like that. i would agree, even if not necessarily as player characters. III should at the very least tie-up the lose ends from provious games and continue on wtih the story. i actually wouldn't mind that. Exactly. When i think about any epic in scope story, the part that binds it and makes those who read it/play it become attached to it is the characters. The point in having both Bastila and Carth say they know Revan is still alive, i would assume, is to keep the story focused on Revan and to set things up for III.

Looking at the health care system in a vacuum is an inacurate depiction of how the Canadian economy functions. To suggest the Canadian people lose out somehow by having an across the board healthier citizenry is illogical. The main problems with the Canadial health care system include undercoverag in less populated areas, lack of students being trained as doctors, not enough skilled immigrants allowed to work in their fields of medical expertise, the corpratization of fundamentally public health domains, and the outdated model of how health care is provided. Globally the statistics prove privatized medical systems do not provide comprable health care to their citizenry, and still with uneqal access, the privatized systems pay more per service, per perscription, per patient. Using fundamental economics, a public system, one run by a government, has a huge advantage over any privately run system in so far as regulations, purchasing power, credit rating, and credibility are concerned. A government has: purchasing power with the established credit rating to back it up, is entirely independant of the changeable fluctions corporate entities are stuck dealing with, has the ability to make use of various ministries, ie: education, to do research and development, training, and providing acess to the citizenry, as well has the advantage with being able to organize and control the infrastructure from the design plans on to the actual administration of health care. All these benefits reduce the cost of health care. Yes, the government's money comes from taxes and various other sources ie:exports, bonds, etc.. however; to argue these taxes spent on health care are wasted is erroneous. The healthier a population is, the better off the citizenry is as is the government that must support that population base. Not only is this common sense as a well as a basic concept of social responsibility, it also makes fiscal sense for the government. In a privately run system, the government still has to pay for the citizens' health care. It is a myth that the government of a privatized health care system does not need to pay for health care (or, better known as "your tax money"). Goverments employ a very large amount of people, and all of them have health insurance. Where does their coverage come from? Who pays for the politicians' health care? Soldiers' health care? The government. Only now, instead of paying those costs in a more efficient system that the government controls and has a vested interest in running to best serve the people; it has to pay private businesses to provide health care to those it employs. So instead of having a system that is based on cooperation between the various ministries needed to provide a cohesive and efficient medical system, you've got a private system with profit as the bottom line, and the factions that should be working together to provide health care, are now competing with eachother and driving up the costs of health care as acess becomes more and more limited and restrictive. That is the nature of capitalism. And a capitalistic health care system is very vulnerable to failure from many sources. The argument competition is better for the consumer and all that only works when there are serious government watch dogs in place to prevent monopolies from having carte blanche to charge and do what they will, and to ensure health care standards are maintained for those who recieve services. Those regulatory boards, health inspectors, etc cost money as well. There are many other factors involved, but i'll leave it at those. And besides, i would rather pay my taxes and know that money is going into the health care system, to social assistance, to infrastructure, and all that, than to have a smugly superior feeling that at least my tax money went to the production of biological warfare agents, military machinery, bribery, and all that other lovely stuff the US government is so well loved for instead. In other words, when i am lying in a hospital bed i want to be seen as a patient, not a customer.

Actually, that was my mistake :"> i thought you were asking about how Revan corrupted them, and then if Revan and Exile were similar. Oops... To answer that question though, no, i do not believe Revan and Exile had the same reasons for having so many people be loyal to them. Alot of Exile's companinons had to have it forced on them (T3 by Carth/Bastila's order, Atton by Kreia, Handmaiden by Atris, Visas by Nihilus, Hanharr by Kreia, HK-47 by virtue of Revan's absence, one could also argue Mira for the bounty but that seems rather a weak reason to me), at least initially. It seems Revan's companions chose to stick with Revan with the exception of Bastila who was mandated to stay by the Jedi Council, and of course the droids through ownership. It seems for those who joined willingly, it was because they shared some experience that bonded them and in essence, they became friends. Revan, it seemed, didn't have any Force breah/wound/etc.. powers. At least, no one mentioned it at any time.

i believe Kreia later says Revan was able to corrupt on such a large scale using the Force wound created at Malachor V. She mentioned something about it being a technique Revan learned and it was hinted at this may be a root cause of Revan having left to go to the Unknown Regions. IIRC, Bastila refers to that as well in the Sith holocron on Korriban. As far as your second question about Revan goes....

I must admit i have difficulty accepting the whole notion DS everybody has to have the end goal of conquest and domination. i realize the black & white view of LS/DS traditionally held in SW does mean Jedi or Sith. However, when i think of reality, i see there are plenty of people who are DS as in not good people, but they still hold certain categorically LS values dear. They can be nasty buggers, but still care about people and beliefs outside of themselves (or how they can be best manipulated). i would see a DS Revan more in that light than in the mindless minion to the DS who needs to become The True Sith Lord way. i think this story arc in particular should end with Revan, and not go on to being about taking on the next whoever it is that slew Revan and went on to become the next Sith Lord. To me, the very title of the games, Knights of the Old Republic (in case you didn't know ), would end nicely with Revan saving the galaxy from the Sith, even if Revan is DS. The first game was about Revan's new self, shaped by the people s/he met during those events. That grew into being about Revan's new self being forced to confront her/his past as a dark lord through her/his companions as well. Then came Revan's connecting to the past and to what path Revan would begin to walk. But for LS and DS, Revan decided leaving is best. It is obvious why LS Revan would go off to defend the Republic, but it is more difficult to see why DS Revan would. But that is where KotOR II becomes pivotal. With the insight Kreia offers about Revan's intentions, it is possible saving the Republic is what Revan intends to do so still. S/he is just gonna go about it the only way s/he knows how: DS. And now to explain how a DS Revan can be "redeemed". It is simple enough; through reconnecting with the bits that mattered to her/him during KotOR. Be it Carth or Bastila, or some other sort of potent personal reminder of what Revan as a Jedi had decided to fight for before joining the Mandalorian wars and what was re-learned, even if refused, during KotOR. When Carth, way back in KotOR, spoke of what he thinks the DS is: in essence something that is always lurking in the shadows waiting for an opportunity to corrupt Jedi, that was a rather significant insight. There is a different meaning to it when a "mundane" sees that in a Jedi. And i think a connection of that sort would be able to help pull Revan back, and if not to the LS, than at least to let go of the conquest fixation. Exile drew her/his power from being able to cut her/himself off from the Force, and could steer clear of that whole issue for a decade. Revan didn't have that ability, but Revan, if what Kreia said about Revan not falling but rather sacrificing is true, could have a different strength, that Revan has a chance to hold onto some of her/himself even when in the depths of the DS. But that is just a theory that ties in the disparate DS/LS fighting for the same goal issue and eliminates the need for yet another overlord to take Revan's place.

I'm so used to the player character annoyingly having to be the be-all-and-end-all i didn't even consider that. Silly me. I understand the reasoning behind both explanations, but the logic doesn't add up. Everyone needs someone to cover their back in dangerous situations, no matter how tough/etc.. that person is. Revan was supposed to have learned s/he isn't invulnerable nor able to control everyting. Going alone indicates Revan learned nothing and is not only doing the same thing all over again, but without even one mimion/friend/etc.. this time around. So Revan became more delusional. That kinda could add more tragedy to Revan's story, but i want to have had Revan learn things about friendship, having a bit of faith in others, and such stuff. Even if a DSer, how to use those & such. And i can't really see why he wouldn't trust Bastila. He has the bond as a pre-emptive warning system should she want to betray him and his presence dominates hers in their bond. Her/his running off alone is one reason i would prefer if Revan was't causing mayhem among the Sith and was fighting some mystical and/or quasi-psychological personal battle instead. Alas, that wouldn't exactly be easy to put into a game context. Still, i'd like there to be a really good reason behind Revan cutting her/himself off from everyone, especially if s/he is keeping tabs on the Sith threat. Thanks for the list

First, i'd like to say it is great to have you reply to me again after all this time. :D I see what you're saying, and i understand the reluctance of allowing an alignment shift for Revan if the player character isn't Revan. But i think there is potential in the possibilities. I have a question though, and it may be a bit of a pokin' a stick at an angry bear type so bear with me (did i just pun all over myself? Forgive me... ) but if the new main character is the one who has to beat Revan, than doesn't that make the new character have to be even tougher than might be a prodigy Revan? Wouldn't that kinda be goin' a tad over the top? Unless, of course, they beat Revan in a sneaky way... i'll read your story next so we'll see... I think you are really Revan in disguise, converting people one thread at a time! Luckily this site doesn't support a MSG link-up If they are still like that a thousand years hence, than yeah, i completely concur Revan could insitgate much mischief and a civil war while s/he is at it. I stand corrected. But i still think doin' it alone is a tad unrealistic... That's alot of stuff for one person to do without any sort of support. "easily" Jediphile says oh, that's a good one I agree to a point. Revan's mistake was the same Luke made in the Dark Empire comic books - he decided that he had to it all himself. But as Luke realises at the end of those books, the way of the jedi is not a solitary path, and that is precisely where Revan went wrong. The jedi find their strength in their unity, trust and loyalty. Revan abandoned all those. This is one of the things that vexes me about KotOR II so much. Revan, regardless of alignment and all that, runs off to either fight the Sith, or to undo whantever it is s/he did, or both. It's like s/he has suddenly lost her/his mind (heh heh. That is kinda what happened, ain't it?). S/he would have to have known it isn't possible to do it alone. So what was Revan thinking? That does open alot of possibilities, of what Revan would have to do out there alone, but i just know it'll be something annoying and anti-climactic Just as the true Sith are now that i've read the link info you posted. i was kinda picturing something more.. grand, more... mystical perhaps. Meh. Guess i should know better than to base my ideas on the content of 2 games. But the possibility of that shines with going back to KotOR when Carth describes the DS to Revan... That allows for possibilities. I guess our opinions differ because we see Revan differently. I see her/him startin' off with the Jedi training as a bit detatched from others. One of the gang, but a little apart from it too. Somehow, Malak came to love Revan (friend type) and became Revan's companinon, but they were never equals. I think as a lightsider especially, Revan would not have told Malak. I see it as Revan wanting to protect him, even knowing in the long run it would prove to be futile. It think Revan's fall was gradual and paved with mostly good, if narcissistic intentions I see a slow insulation from others, a slow degrading and corruption as Revan lost her/his soul. i just can't see Revan as a brutish DSer who is into the usual random violence and such. Revan may not have actually felt much for people anymore, but i think the psychological imprint of wanting to protect remained. IMHO, Revan would have been DS by the time Malachor V came about, and had a set strategy in mind of converting Jedi and all that. In order for that to have happened if my slow fall theory is true, than Revan would have had to know about the true Sith threat long before. Which is plausible since Kreia and even the Masters in the first said s/he had been researching and studying for a long time. A request: could someone help clear up the games' timelines. They seem to be a bit contradictory in places. From things i've read, KotOR began 1 year after they caught Revan. Revan & Malak were on Kashyyyk 5 years before that. Telos was bombed 4 years before. Things get fuzzy from there... TIA

Much obliged. Thank you :D I'd also like to hear your story. So far there are 4, IIRC. Is anyone going to post theirs somewhere? And now for part 2 of my rant... I agree. I wonder how things would have gone if the Mandalorians had won... I wonder about that. Who are you refering to as weak? Though the Republic also lost alot of strength by fighting in the war. It may have less to do with not understanding those points of view as perhaps, even with taking those theories into account, thinking another is more likely or for whatever reason, prefered. Or i could just be way off on that, if you prefer... :D I've only seen the movies so judging from them it seems he didn't do things with good intentions at all. All of it seemed to stem from his own desires and want to be in control. I would like to know how you see good intent in him, if you don't mind. Wanting to save Padme is, of course, a good intention of its own. But in the movie, i felt by then it had little to do with Padme for who she was, and alot more to do with what Anakin wanted to try to force reality to be. He didn't even listen to her anymore at that point, it wasn't Padme that mattered, it was what she represented to him in his mind. In that though, the parallel can be drawn, Anakin's obsession to save Padme and Revan's obsession to save the galaxy. I think the whole goal of Revan's involvement in the Mandalorian Wars was specifically to unite the galaxy in order to be able to defend against the impending doom, whatever form it would take. Revan decided it wasn't realistic to expect the Senate to comprehend this war of belief (arrogance perhaps fostered by Kreia), let alone agree on anything and be able to act on it. I think in witnessing all the death, in being responsible for so much death, in feeling the echoes and wounds in the Force that created, and in having this huge pressure of the 'true' Sith threat driving her/him, Revan lost her/his way. Revan lost what there was left of her/his humanity in being consumed by her/his goal. This is the flawed Revan, the Revan who is only human and came to believe the ends justified the means. And in doing so, Revan became corrupted and evil, and saw things, people, mostly as tools and a means to an end. That is why I believe Revan would not have told Malak. In Revan's mind, s/he has to do all this alone. No one else could possibly understand the magnitude, importance, nor scope of what s/he is trying to accomplish (meaning Revan became more delusional). And so on. The more insular and focused Revan became, the more Malak resented it and came to loathe her/him. Obviously it is more complicated than that, but that's the basics of how i see it. And what Sith Lord in their right mind, or wrong one for that matter, would tell their minions what their true objectives are, especially if it was along the lines of saving the Republic? A soon to be dead one, i would think. As far as the reason Revan would have told Malak and all about the Star Forge is pretty apparent. The Star Forge needs personnel and Malak was with Revan when they discovered the Star Maps and later the Star Forge. To add to the answer of how Malak didn't know about the 'true' Sith could be as simple as he didn't do all the research and put all the pieces together as Revan did. It seems apparent too that Malak was at least a little unstable, or at least too attatched to Revan, and Revan felt it best not to tell him. It would make Malak less predictable and less easy to control. From the first cutscene with Malak & Revan on Dantooine, Malak was entirely submissive to Revan, even willing to go beyond the point of no return simply because Revan was. Devotion is a useful tool, but as Malak proves, it can be dangerous as well. And that also goes to show how flawed Revan was. Probably should'a seen Malak's betrayal coming, being so smart 'n all, but s/he didn't... Or maybe that was part of Revan's master plan too... Mwahahaha :D

Agreed. But it'd still be nice to have since so much time is spent dealing with inventory. In NWN and the BGs they had things like toys, books, and other mundane stuff ya'd think, "hey, there is no need for me to take this", but low, later on, it turns out those golden pantaloons actually did something. That is what i'm talking about, not getting rid of an obviously useful item. I agree with you on all of that. i would also go one further and say i would like to see more options reflecting the player character's personality. I felt in KotOR, they did a good job of that, the player on the most part could be grouchy or sweet, a tad psychotic or virtuous. That is one reason i like LSF most, her dialogue options with Carth felt better to me, and allowed for more personality infusion. I wonder if maybe some dialogue options should come from the class (ie: scoundrel is, um... scoundrally) or maybe from a choice done by the player at character creation or something. I see there being difficulties with implementing such systems though. But i must say, i felt the cast in the first felt more genuine to me specifically because there wasn't an influence system. But if it was done properly, it would be great. Psst.. you're too modest. The story line and characters are indeed the most important things. And i prefer the first as well for much the same reasons.

"Methinks thou dost protest too much" :D Ok, let's get some perspective here. Revan would have to be pretty smart and capable in order to accomplish all s/he has (ie: rip languages out from other peoples' minds with full comprehension as well as implant them, sought knowledge and learned it at an incredible rate and from many sources, strategized how to make best use of the Mandalorian Wars in order to achieve her/his goals, came up with the whole Sith Jedi hunters, established academies and an entire new Sith order, among a whole bunch of other things). And according to some, Revan is now all alone taking on the 'true' Sith empire. Did i mention alone? So Revan is a cut beyond the norm by any measure. That having been said, of course Revan is flawed. That is the whole point. A perfect Revan would have been able to miraculously get the Jedi Masters and Republlic Senate to believe in the threat of the 'true' Sith, unite all the galaxy with the common goal of defending it, and brought intra-galactic peace and security (where a truly phenomenal Revan would be a devoted Jedi who thinks outside the box and can handle being married and a parent and can bake kick-ass chocolate chip cookies). What did Revan do instead? S/he decides to break the galaxy in order to remold it to best serve her/his purposes. Certainly that is easier than getting the Senate to agree on anything, but it is not how it should have been done. Major, tragic flaws. And that is what makes Revan so compelling as a character. BTW, just because a person played Revan and thinks s/he is a super genius, super cool, and super amazing, doesn't necessarily mean that person identifies with Revan. A person could actually feel completely detached from Revan, or very unlike Revan even, and still find her/him to be a tactical genius. So there :D Actually, i felt they pretty much forced alot of stuff on the player, especially having to kill teammates (KotOR) and Jedi Masters (KotOR II), or if how if a character is DS that has to automatically mean anti-Republic. I understand it is part of the overarcing story line, but that irked me anyway. But all i was saying (using alot of words) with regards to the whole Carth issue is, with a DS Revan being pre-scripted and having chosen Revan to be DS at the end of (KotOR), i feel it pushes everything Revan went through emotionally and psychologically to the fringe. I can accept Revan chose the DS. I can even accept Revan falling to the DS in III if LS in the first (albeit with great reluctance and much poutting). What i have trouble accepting is that everyone Revan spent all that time with in very difficult situations while recovering from near-death and mindwiping had no effect on her/him. Not saying Revan had to have liked them or anything, just saying they'd have affected her/him profoundly. The best way to depict that in a game would be through the characters reappearing. But that doesn't have to be the case. I just don't want them to disappear and be ignored. Revan as DS killed off everyone who wasn't DS. Carth is the only one who may have survived, with the exception of DS female Revan if they were in a romantic relationship, so i'll ignore that option to make my point. If they play a role in III, then Carth would be the only one to be able to do so (DS). Yeah, i do. And it is one of those unfortunate money vs. kick-ass story things. What is your story anyway? Sounds inetersting :cool: I think here the issue of forcing a scenario comes into play again. The question is at what point is the DS option of taking on the top dog to become the new top dog no longer viable. Eventually, the Republic and/or affiliates thereof have to win. It exists in the 'Anakin era', so it can't be destroyed in the games. In that sense, it is forced, and no matter how hard a power-hungry megalomaniac genius tries, eventually the DS will lose. Personally, i don't want another DS character that has to be hell-bent on becoming the next leader. As B'ree the merchant in Dreshdae said "Just between you and me, I'll never understand why everyone thinks 'dark side' and 'hooligan' are the same thing." I saw Revan more as a personal type of DS than an external one. That is to say, s/he made the sacrifice rather than became a thug as Malak did. An immoral, short-sighted, and rather delusional thug at that. Conversely, a DS character can be an obnoxious brute but still be loyal to the Republic and not want to engage in mass destruction, even if in the destruction of those who get directly in their way. Our opinions differ in this. I think Carth being a link to Revan's past is important, especially given Revan's mindwipe and all that. Just because Revan isn't redeemable doesn't mean Carth shouldn't be there. It would be similar to Exile's facing the past to set her/himself for the future in the cave. If in III DS Revan comes to a cross-roads and introspects, then having to reaffirm her/his DS path , or choosing to leave it, Carth would play a pivotal role. Differences in perspective make life more interesting, eh? I rather enjoy reading them. Revan has just had four years, but then he fought - and won - the Mandalorian Wars in less... There is a difference between: convincing a bunch of Jedi to join a war eventhough it went against the Council's wishes, being able to learn Mandalorian tactics and improve on them and then use said tactics and a massive Republic fleet against the Mandalorians in order to win the war, and: single-handedly taking on a large and dangerous empire whose origins mix Force sensitivity into the population base, are tactically minded enough to instigate the Mandalorian Wars in a different section of the galaxy all together while conveniently letting their prey slug it out and weaken themselves, and who, by all counts, are said to be a hell of alot tougher both as individuals and in the consolidating effect of their beliefs. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? IMO, based on what we've been told about them so far, no. There would have to be sound reasoning behind it if that were the case. But here again; vive la difference! I remember Kreia said Revan was fighting this war of belief but didn't Kreia also say, which Carth confirms, Revan went 'out there' to stop something terrible s/he had started? We assume that has something to do with the Sith wanting to come squish the Republic, but how could they have forgotten Korriban and Malachor V then? Again, my 'plot hole sense' is tingling. I do not personally subscribe to the theory of Revan being a 'true' Sith, but imagine the irony of the Jedi Order training Revan twice. The whole notion of someone having to be a certain way because of their genetic make-up is rather limiting storywise. Or perhaps i should say a well worn cliche.

And much better inventory sorting and access. The inventory sub-menus were good to have, especially the "new", "quest", and "useable" ones and the KotOR II "datapad" one too. But having to scroll through tons of stuff just to read up on an item <_< Being able to put only one thing into a container at a time <_< Having to take every item of a bunch when looting, didn't like that either. Being able to break stuff down at a workbench was a nice way to get rid of some junk, yet there still was so much left over. The other thing that drives me nuts is having to carry a boatload of junk around because it may come in handy at some point later in the game. Other CRPGs are great examples of that. The useless seeming junk you found at the beginning of the game is actually a holy artifact, the key to solving a puzzle, the big mean Ogre's teddy bear, whatver, and you're screwed without it. Things that are important should be obviously so even if they are obscure. Hun? What i mean is stuff that will be important later shoud be made known to the player rather than have 'em hold onto all this junk. Maybe in a "may be important later" sub-menu. Or with a "you get a strange feeling you want to hold onto this for a while" in the item's description, or something.

I always thought after i played the training area of Tomb Raider (didn't finish the first level though ), it would be neat to have RPGs with that much freedom of movement and character control (ie: tumbling). But the problems with that are with having party members in combat, it gets difficult, also, for people like me who completely suck at controler based dexterity for combat, the game gets really fracked. And if that turned into hack'n'slash dependant on dexterity - yikes That would really ruin the whole RPG experience for me. Afterall, its about the story and characters and all that, and not specifically the combat. But that they should find a happy medium between the 2 is a good point. So true. Yeah :cool: And that the avatars have 2 holsters/sheaths/sabers at the belt/whatever for those who use 2 weapons.

That is the point exactly, very well put. Exile somehow managed to let go of everything that goes along with being connected to the Force and then sever that connection absolutely. Others chose either death or corruption instead. How s/he did it somehow had an affect on the Force, it caused a wound in it. And, as previously stated by Visas and the Jedi Masters, the Exile feels empty to them, as if s/he is nothing. The Masters reiterate that on Dantooine again, eventhough Exile is very high level by that time and seeming to brim with Force energy. Add to that Malachor V's own echoes casting wound in the Force feels the same as Exile's, than it makes sense the Masters would cut Exile off from the Force. So the question is; how does Exile use the Force? It could be Midi-chlorians, it could be a natural healing process, or through siphoning/leeching, are those it or are there other ideas? i would argue though, Exile can't actually feel nor use the Force at all. An explanation of how Exile was 'using' the Force as of waking in Peragus is Kreia put her consciousness into Exile as she formed a Force bond with her/him. In essence, Kreia had to leave some of herself in Exile in order to act as a sort of conduit to allow Exile to channel the Force. Kreia woke her/him in the kolto tank. Kreia was dead, but on contact with Exile, she came back to life. Kreia guided Exile and was an omnipresent presence within the Exile the whole time. They had a bond so strong it was unheard of, and seemed unnatural to the Jedi Masters. So i would argue that Kreia was the actual means Exile seemed to regain Force abilities. Exile felt s/he was hearing the Force from across a great distance. That implies to me it isn't actually Exile who touches the Force. The explanation for Exile's Force use resembling the leechin/siphoning is Kreia uses the Force in that way; she was, it has been said, a product of Malachor V. And all those who got touched by Malachor V's effects channel the Force in the leeching way. I think once Kreia died on Malachor V, Exile lost the link s/he had to the Force. Thus far, that is the only explanation that seems to fit the disparate pieces together without contradicting too much other stuff. It also explains why the Jedi Masters felt the leeching and echoes emanating off of Exile and their wanting to cut Exile's connection to the Force. i readily admit there are still contradictions using this possibility as the premise though ie:why would Kreia then tell her/him to join the fight against the Sith, among others. I'm curious what you mean by the Force retaliating statement. Care to share? Was this in game or in reference to different Jedi Masters? I don't recall that happening... I wonder if the Jedi Masters were entirely wrong with their decision to wait during the Mandalorian Wars. They sensed a bigger looming threat, and they figured they would lose any Jedi they sent to the wars either by death or falling to the DS. I don't think just sittin' on their arses was the way to go either though. Does it really matter though, as far as the Force and Exile are concerned, what s/he did in exile? Perhaps the most compelling thing to them was to deal with what to their understanding at least is this rather dangerous wound in the Force that is a threat to the galaxy. Admitedly not the best way to go about things... "Nice you could make it. Thanks for reuniting us BTW. Oh, and we're cutting you off from the Force now. It won't take but a minute..."

So, just so i know we're on the same page here, your belief is the wound of Malachor V is linked to Exile directly, and the Jedi Masters saw that Exile could affect the Force through that link and that is why they wanted to cut Exile off. Is that right?

Bao-Dur, Kreia, Atton of the playable characters. They are ranked equal because they each are very different but also interesting and could do cool things. Sion of those who aren't playable but are prominent. But i tend to really like side characters too. (Not good with remembering names <_< ) The head engineer from Peragus, Lt Grenn, the first and second in command of the Khoonda malitia, Chodo Habat, the crazy utility droid from Czerka C4-B4 sets free, the Twin Suns, in Iziz the Rodian who forgot his blaster and the Twi'lek who asks if you would like to touch his lekku... There are lots of 'em i would include as coolest/sweetest becasue they added alot to the game. They made me laugh or get frustrated as much as the main cast. They gave me a sense of who they were in sometimes just 3 lines. Yay for side characters! :D

I happen to agree with the influence system being canned in as far as the other person's alignment goes. The notion of making HK-47 have LS mastery (which i am guilty of too :D ) is rather silly i think, albeit fun. I assume the influence system was there as a means to emphasize the amount of affect Exile has on her/his companions, not because the companions actually had their core selves changed. That would explain why Bao-Dur still got upset when Exile did DS stuff in his presence, and so on. While the idea of the protagonist being able to influence the party is neat, i think it would have to work the other way around too for it to bear any semblance of reality. Perhaps with the influence being based on dialogue and how much 'effort' the protagonist puts into the relationship as well as on their actions, that way, those whom the players (or characters) hate, can be ignored beyond the basics (ie: not talk with them to find out about their quest, etc), or can even be argued with, etc. That would require fewer core characters with very detailed and complex dialogue options. I also think the party members should be able to influence eachother having nothing at all to do with the protagonist. But i am speaking of influence in the sense of how much the cast likes and gets along with eachoter, how well they work together, etc... It might even be able to extend to better cohesiveness in the field allowing for additional combat abilities, or the ability for the characters to teach eachother non-class skills over time, or something along those lines. There are alot of possibilities.This is usually hinted at in BioWare RPGs, as it was in KotOR II, but it is just flavour and not a game mechanic. And over time, i can see alignments changing, but not nearly as drastically as in KotOR II. One thing i like about KotOR is the cast wasn't so easily changeable. They would do out of character things (ie: join battle against those they did not agree with battling against), but at the end of it, even if they did change a little, they were still true to themselves. I would not like to see a cast of characters who are wishy-washy and without a centre. I felt some of the characters of KotOR II had personalities which were too disparate in nature. There should be allowances made for the change process, but it went to the extreme.

I must say, i find what you've said makes sound sense. In a way, going back to the pre-scripting discussions of earlier, leaving Carth out of it entirely with a DS Revan does allow for the player to decide for themselves and not to have their understanding of Carth messed around with for the sake of plot device. Having said that; I don't see why Revan gets to run off to face the "true" Sith threat and be all mysterious, but no one else can I might be poking a hornet nest with what i'm gonna say, but it is done in the vein to further discussion. There are many possible explanations for what could have happened to Carth. Maybe he shot himself with a blaster, maybe he was taken prisoner by the Sith after they defeated the Republic and Revan him/herself has been messin' with Carth's mind and decided to take him along to go do whatever it is Revan is doing out there against the "true" Sith, or maybe, assuming Carth is Force sensitive to some degree (opinion based on the hinting at it done in KotOR), Revan decided to corrupt him as Revan did the Jedi hunters Atton was a part of and use him in that way 'out there'. Or the Republic/neutral party rescued him and he now is hell-bent and determined to save/get vengeance on Revan and has chosen to learn less admiral type skills and in place, more assassin type in order to do so. Just as Saul got to uncontestedly destroy Telos by Carth not even have it cross his mind Saul could betrayed the Republic, he desperately needs to stop Revan for the same reason. Like it or not, the fact is, Revan is alive because Carth helped her/him on the Endar Spire and saved her/him after they crashed on Taris and certainly in the earlier part of the game on Taris. So rather than a whiny Carth, he is now a bloodthirsty Carth and all these Carth haters will like him now that he is an evil saddistic bastard. It is even possible Revan took Carth prisoner, but instead of trying to corrupt him, Revan kept Carth whole specifically as a counterpoint, as a type of reminder of saving the galaxy being what is important (assuming a DS Revan with a save the galaxy goal). Point is (yes, there is one...), i find it mildly ironic how those who mock 'Revan fanboyism' are the same who allow only for Revan to be capable and adaptive. Mwahahahahaha Sure you're up to it? Nah, i'm just kiddin'. I'm gald you asked. :D I am rather fond of the LS female Revan story. Much more so than for any of the other Revan incarnations. My opinion might be different if the detailed background info on Revan from KotOR II was there in the first game, but since it was meant as a standalone, of course it wouldn't be there in the first. So with my preference in mind, as i have said lots before (3 times? That isn't really 'lots' as such...), i want the casts from the previous KotORs to be in the third. Putting the whole mess of the cut KotOR II endings aside, and the whole cut Revan and Carth die on the Star Forge together ending aside as well (kinda have to considering Revan would be dead...), it would be in keeping with the past echoing (reference intended) into the future that began in KotOR, got elaborated on in KotOR II, and IMHO, should be carried on into III as the end result now being shown. The whole destiny, how (as Kreia often spoke of) the ripples from the past create waves into the future, cause and effect, and all that stuff, comes full circle in III having to do with Revan. IMO, Revan is really the central figure to all the story. And i say that not out of Revan (nor self) worship, i say that because after reading all these ideas on these forums, i came to see Exile as a product of what Revan did (my opinion only. I do welcome other ideas). And Exile's companions are a product of how Exile affects them. Even the state the galaxy is in is due to Revan (not the reason behind the Mandalorian Wars of course, just the outcome thereof). I'm not saying Revan is a god-like uber powerful being. I'm saying Revan, whether a genius or not, successfully directed the course of recent history. And those who affected Revan the most post Revan's near-death are key figures and important to carry on with into the future (KotOR III). If one would argue that binging them back in III is superfluous, then i say bringing Canderous and HK-47 back in II is superfluous as well. T3-M4 was needed as a plot devise to tie Revan into II. As far as what i think should happen Carth wise with a DS Revan in KotOR, and with a DS scripted Revan in III; i don't really know. A confrontation is an obvious choice. Carth being the key to Revan's redemption is another - and not just as LS female Revan inKotOR. Depending on the circumstances, I think friendship can be stronger than romantic love. Kinda like in Buffy the Vampire Slayer how Zander was the only one who could redeem Willow when she went power and destruction mad. (As a reference, the mundane person is the only one who can get through to the powerful one specifically because the mundane person doesn't have this insane power). I'll have to think about it more. There may be potential merrit to what i wrote in the first paragraph, there may not. What do you think about it now? I see it pretty much the same way. What I would like is essentially the Dark Lord of the true Sith is planning an invasion of the crippled republic. Now, if Revan ended up as LS in K1, then you need to find him, redeem him, and then overthrow the Dark Lord with Revan's help. However, if Revan was DS in K1, then Revan *IS* the Dark Lord of the true Sith, and you have to overthrow him yourself, either to save the republic (LS choice) or to take his place (DS choice). Agreed, and to expand on this more, yes, if you set Revan as LS then he/she should be 'redeemable', however, if you fail to redeem Revan then you have the option of either killing him/her or placing him/her under arrest on behalf of the Galactic Senate. And yes if you set Revan as DS then Revan should be the 'Dark Lord' of the True Sith. I'd give the player four options in this case scenario, two LS and two DS. The two LS ones to add up to you saving the Jedi/Republic and defeating the Dark Lord, the only difference is you have the option of either killing Revan or placing him/her under arrest on behalf of the Galactic Senate. The two DS options result in you joining the 'True Sith', you either kill Revan and take his/her place as the Dark Lord yourself or prove yourself worthy to Revan and become his/her apprentice. How does that all sound? I really like those ideas. The idea of Revan having already caused a civil war between the "true" Sith and came back to unite the galaxy against that threat is incredible. The problem i see with that is: is it possible for Revan to have done that in such a short time and so effectively, or at all? Certainly, depending on the type of society and governance they have, it could be done. Hell, Revan could even have become a True Sith Idol (celebrity) and used that wealth and power to influence politics . Joking aside, i find it unlikely Revan could have caused a civil war. If these Sith have it together and pose a real threat as Kreia suggested, and did that very same thing to the Republic (they are said to be the ones who convinced Mandalore to begin the Mandalorian Wars), then one would assume they have it together enough not to be so suceptible themselves. One could counter that point by suggesting the nature of the Sith beast is mistrust and in-fighting. Sure. But when they have a strong leader, there is an absolute rule with an iron fist. If it could work, it would depend greatly on their political regime's stability. Also, i assume since they are the Sith from 'out there' and are the 'true' Sith, they woud be quite different than the Sith the Republic has to deal with. It would be a bit of a let down if these "true" Sith are as cannon-fodderish, mindless, and easy to beat by just killing lots and lots of 'em as the Sith from the known galaxy are. For gamers, i think, the idea of the "true" Sith is intriguing and suggestive of someting more challenging and in depth than more of the same. But that is just what i think thus far. :ph34r: Conversely, it might be neat if it was uncovered Revan really is a 'true' Sith, and s/he can't resist the call of home, as Kreia put it. Which may also explain Revan's always inevitably falling to the DS in the end, and her/his tactical genius if that is indeed what s/he has.

Perhaps the midi chlorians have always been trying to speak to the Exile and Kreia just taught the Exile how to listen for it again. Fair enough. If Exile was just deafened to it and not completely severed from it, than what was all that talk by Kreia and the Jedi Council about? This is where the inconsistencies in the narrative really make themselves seen, and drive me nuts . If the only deafened part is true; however; than the gradual reconnection through use and getting accustomed to it makes complete sense. Ah, but even if you get them lightside or darkside (with the exception of Atton) you still lose influence with them if you do something they don't agree with. Example: I turn Visas LS. I take her to Onderon. We're in the cantina and Colonel Tobin and Vaklu's troops attack. Visas says it would be a good chance to "cleanse" the place of life. I tell her to rein it in and keep her lightsaber to Vaklu's troops only. She does what I tell her, yes, but I lose influence. I think we're agreeing on the outcome on this one, even if not on the method. The party members do/say/etc things they normally wouldn't, but the fact they don't entirely let go of their core beliefs (ie: the Visas example you gave) proves even if the Exile has an effect, even an overwhelming one, they still have a measure of control and maintain a sense of self. True. But what are your thoughts about Atton's devotion to male Exile? Why does Atton want to protect the male Exile to the extent he does? Even considering Atton wanting to make up for his past, i wonder if his determination maybe goes a bit beyond that... I concur the Jedi Masters and the Sith Lords look to the Force as an explanation for everything a bit too readily. And you make and exellent point about Exile and why the other padawans reacted to her/him that way. But i do believe the Exile's Force bonds play a significant role in the party members staying with her/him. But that's just me. And that is one reason why things are so confusing. Not just with regards to the midichlorians, but as far as the whole plot about the wound in the Force and echoes go. The midi-chlorian discussions are an attempt to figure out the means to the ends. That makes complete sense. I think the biggest difficulty with accepting that as being all there is to it is the references made by both Kreia and the Jedi Masters about Exile having severed her/himself so completely from the Force it left a wound in the Force and that s/he is a wound in the Force that must be healed, and the stating that s/he is a leech/siphon and her/his mere existence causes echoes/resonnace bringing destruction in its wake. If that is the case, and if that is what this "truth" Kreia was speaking of when the Jedi Council cut Exile off from the Force is, than it is absolutely true the Council is acting out of fear and being shortsighted and petty. But what i don't get is if a Jedi being cut off from the Force and being fine is what frightens them, why would they then cut the Exile off from the Force again? I don't see the purpose of that.

Guess i'm just tryin'a understand how Exlie can hear the Force in others by listening to the midi-chlorians in others. The explanation for anyone to be able to even percieve the Force is because the midi-chlorians act like an organ. So if one can't see without eyes, than by extension, one can't feel the Force without midi-chlorians. One cannot use another person's eyes to see, so how does Exile use another's midi-chlorians to connect with the Force? Is it possible the midi-chlorian population in Exile would have to re-establish itself over a period of time thus explaining Exile's gradual reconnection with the Force? Meaning; Exile's midi-chlorians channel other people's midi-chlorians as a means of allowing Exile to use the Force through others since Exile doesn't have enough to do it on her/his own. The whole concept of how Exile siphons the Force from others was too poorly explained in the game. It leads to much confusion... On the subject of the Jedi Council cuttin' Exile off from the Force... I don't think they acted out of fear nor ignorance. If it is an established truth that Exile is a wound in the Force, and that her/his mere existence is dangerous to the Force and as an extension, to all life, than s/he rightly should be severed from the Force. They took a wait and see approach with Exile after the war specifically because they did not understand fully, and acting then would have been acting out of fear. But 10 years later after experiencing how things connect back to Exile, they made an informed decission. Basically, Exile is the physical manifestation of the Force wound, just as Jediphile believes Nihilus is the manifestation of Exile's rejection of the DS. (i read the whole thread and loved it. Thanks for the link ) The logic of why they wouldn't kill her/him escapes me. In the LS ending, Malachor V gets destroyed to get rid of the power spot which, in essence, is eliminating the root of how the Jedi (et al) were so easily made to succumb to the dark side by Revan. If Exile's being a wound in the Force becomes dangerous when Exile uses the Force through resonnating and casting echoes in the Force, than it makes complete sense to cut Exile off from the Force. But if Exile's mere existence is the wound, as was clearly stated, wouldn't that than mean Exile, like Malachor V, should die? That is where the logic behind the whole plot falls apart for me. Surely, if Exile is a wound in the Force, than the Council should have known it. By the Council wanting to cut her/him off from the Force it implies Exile channeling the Force is what causes the resonnace to occur. Is Exile the wound in the Force, or is the wound in the Force just something that happened due to Exile cutting her/himself off from the Force and is independant of what Exile does as of the point of its creation? Or is the wound both in Exile and a separate entity? Exactly. But the bigger picture theory may be that it idoesn't really matter how Exile siphon's the Force nor from whom, the echoes are cast regardless. So why doesn't it affect those s/he siphons the Force from? It could be they are "immune" because of the Force bonding s/he has with them but the echoes are cast anyway beyond Exile's range, thus Exile doesn't witness its effects and is unaware of it. ADDITION: An intersting point is we, the players, don't actually know what happened to Exile after Kreia was killed/died. It is possible, depending on if Exile felt the Force through Kreia alone and not Exile's companions, that Exile could no longer use the Force. Which would lend credence to the possibility Exile isn't actually a Force leech/siphon. IMO Vrook was implying not that they follow Exile against their will, as in accompanying her/him when they don't want to (Kreia took care of that ), rather their behaviour and choices began to alter (hence such easy alignment shifts even against their true personalities and ethics) because of Exile Force-bonding with them. Exile, unaware of it, overpowers them, overwhelms them, and they do things, think and feel things, they normally wouldn't. Mira says she doesn't like how killing has become so instinctive and easy when she is with Exile. Atton doesn't understand why he wants to protect her/him. As far as Handmaiden goes, i wonder if it was in with the cut content regarding Atris to explain why Handmaiden went along with Exile. Brianna says she is following Atris' orders by going along with Exile and them. She also says it is the most difficult order Atris ever gave her (i believe it was among her private thoughts when Exile is learning how to listen to surface thoughts). Then back at Atris' Telos base, Atris flips out at Brianna asking her things such as (paraphrasing) "Was it my order for you to touch him, to long for him" or something similar. It seems Atris ordered Brianna to stowe away.

Really? IMO T3 barely had a personality in KotOR. I'm curious to know why you like T3 most, if ya don't mind sharing...

i channel the Stupid Side of the Force, so i don't know if that is a compliment :D or if i should cry... :'( Or was that a sneaky reference to Hecate? Yeah! And that is why in my games, i like to reload conversations numerous times and try all the dialogue options. I figure the devs put so much effort into it, i want to see everything they came up with. Also, i get a better sense of what the characters acutally mean since the player character's dialogue is often ambiguous and sometimes, down right confusing. Which incidentally is another cliche. How dialogue options are left with open-ended meanings as a shortcut to explain away inconsistencies. RPG fans, from what i noticed, tend to be a bit more into the story and characters (etc..) than the action. Or at least, those are what stay with the players in the long run. Damn straight! The more i say the word cliche, where once i was completely certain of its meaning, now i fear i am finding it difficult to hold onto that meaning. Spooky

It most definitely, um... what i meant to say was; IMHO , Revan would not have gone along with it before finding out about the "true" Sith. So the question is; when did Revan find out about the true Sith? My thoughts on it are Revan found out before deciding to participate in the Mandalorian Wars. S/he did research, formulated tactics, began to figure out what the "master plan" should be. This is a bit "out there", but I suspect it may have been Revan who lead Kreia astray. Kreia mostly speaks as if she had been a Sith Lord for ages, but when she speaks of the 3 Sith Lords who must be dealt with in order for the galaxy to survive, she proceeds to list them: hunger, pain, and betrayal, she said they were a product of the Mandalorian Wars. And if Revan made the self-sacrifice to become evil to save the galaxy, that would logically place Revan as being Kreia's master as opposed to the other way around. Conjecture? Most certainly! :D But i just think Revan is that hard core. :ph34r: I agree that Carth should play a major role in K3, ONLY if you set Revan as LS, otherwise, he's dead if you set Revan as DS. So I don't want to see Carth at all when I set Revan as DS in K3 (if they make it and if there not going to abandon the Revan/Exile story-arch)... Um.... he ran away from a DS male, and only went to save a DS female if they had gone all the way up the dialogue tree to the love-confession. He only gets killed by a lovey-dovey DS female. I think he was essential to Revan even as a friend and a person with whom Revan lerans alot about trust, the aftermath of the wars from a different perspective, and a whole bunch a' other important things. So he'd be good with a DS male too. BTW, did anyone else find it extremely irritating how Bastila completely took over the role of master during Carth's death? I really wanted Revan to be able to put her into her place with a nice *Force Choke* followed-up by a *Force Push* and tell her to remember who the master is and not to interfere. It making sense would depend on the plot. If it is the plot i want , it'd be Revan's old companions joining Exile's and together go put those silly angsty Jedi (Revan & Exile) in thier place, then all kick Sith rumpus together. But i digress.... (w00t) Honestly, i'm very relieved to hear that. I feel better now. Thanks :D Just what you, Jediphile, and i were unknowingly agreeing with eachother about the whole time with regards to them not pre-scripting KotOR III. To clarify how i heard that sentence in my head: "But as you have already stated in your signature, that is a cheap way out. Which they should not take. Ever." Idendum: it *is* right there in your signature, ain't it? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

:'( Within the context of it being of the past, Exile's DS mastery would stem from the fact s/he has done alot of very bad things during the war, with the final kicker being imploding a planet and destroying more than i could ever count on my fingers Mandalorians, Jedi, Republic troops, etc... and also desrtoying whatever native life was on Malachor V, not to mention causing at the very least a great disturbance in the Force. And the images in the cave are brought forth by the spelunker 's (cave goer ?) own psyche. So anyone who has committed these attrocities, especially if that person was raised with the notion of compassion as a guiding principle, would certainly view themselves as evil/bad/corrupted, even if intelectually aware 'it had to be done'. Also, IIRC (which isn't very likely ) Exile would know about Malachor V's aftermath through influence check dialogues (assuming you could actually access them <_< ) about Revan using Malachor V as a means of "cleaning house". Ghost Kreia = Exile's imagination... I mean really, isn't that one of Exile's greatest fears, to be put into another situation wherein s/he is not only completely manipulated, but the manipulation uses Exile's core beliefs against her/him so s/he will commit an attrocity as 'The General' who erroneously believes it is for the greater good? The embodiment of that is, of course, Revan. That Exile falls for it twice, must be very difficult to bear. Poor Exile. (And they say Disciple is naive ) I'll see your , and i'll raise you a :ph34r: Oo, irony. You believe Exile's psyche over Kreia. Wonder what that says about you? You sure you want an answer to that? :cool: "Ignore the bird, follow the River" High Aldwin What makes you say that ?

:"> me too I'm so happy i'm not the only one :D

Your point about the outcome of the battle depending on actual skill is a good one. And i suck at pressing buttons too. Let's just say i was very glad the swoop races weren't mandatory beyond the first one in KotOR on Taris. It would be neat if the combat style altered a bit according to how the character's actual in game experience and lvl up choices progressed. Finesse characters, for instance, would fight different than powerhouses (and wouldn't get squished within half a second). There has to be a happy medium between the disparaging "roll of the dice" leaving the player kinda detached in combat, and a too manual dexterity dependent combat systems. Huzah! :D