Hekate

i don't buy for one second that Kreia and Sion aren't in it together from the begining. There is no reason why he would have let her live after cutting of her hand if he had wanted to kill her. She was on the floor at his mercy. Then what, he skips away while whistling? Kriea could easily have wiped the foor with him, as we later see. None of that makes sense. So if Sion is working for Keia, that would make it possible that Atton was the intended pilot for the Ebon Hawk from the begining, and that is why he was on Peragus and safely locked away while HK-50 meticulously killed off every single other person, HK-50 belonged to Kreia. Since as G0-T0 said some HK-50s belong to individuals and not all to him nor the Republic. So there is no way Atton would have been safe from HK-50, especially since HK-50 had all the codes and voice print ids required to move around Peragus at will. He set the whole thing up from the get go so he most likely left tactical ways for him to get around if he needed to. Don't know how Atton got there though. Either Peragus was the rendez-vous point, he was on the Sith ship with Kreia and Sion from the get go, or he was picked-up along the way, but then again, who flew the ship while T3 was shut down? If it was drifting, it would have been drifting very slowly since it had no power which means the pilot programmed the Ebon Hawk to fly to Peragus to begin with. And who turned T3 back on? Bizzare. Sorry about the multiple posts. i thought it was important to keep the quotes intact so i had to split the responses.

i just checked from a save and it said he is missing the 4 parts. It also said he seems older and more corroded than the other HK units, but that is vague and doesn't explain how long his parts have been missing. Maybe HK-50 fried him, threw his parts out the airlock, then locked him in the storage room. But that theory also doesn't work since the cut content states neither series of HK can hurt eachother... True. But he won't tell Exile if Exile doesn't have enough influence with him. And Exile was asking T3 how he and Kreia got to be on the Ebon Hawk which doesn't explain that fact at all. It does work as a distraction tactic as you stated, but it doesn't explain how T3 and Kreia got onto the Ebon Hawk in the first place, which is what Exile wanted to know, so why would T3 reveal that information when it wasn't necessary and could lead to information on Revan leaking out? "If I am being mean it's because I care" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Riiiiggghht... Rule #48 "The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You'd prefer a dull knife? Ooo how kinky Nah, there must be some other explanation... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right. A few options: - Yes - No! - I wanted to confuse the enemy. - "To get to the other side" - "42" 42! i should have known... Could have been a sith boarder or a crewmember from the Harbinger trying to escape the sith assault on the Harbinger, and he was killed when the Ebon Hawk was crippled when it tried to escape. Perhaps the life-support system was hit and he suffocated, while we know that Kreia could have simply used her Force Breathing technique. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It couldn't have been a Sith assassin for the reasons described in my previous post, unless the assassin came on board the Ebon Hawk after the Harbinger was attacked, but then who/what killed this person? That it could have been a Republic soldier is possible, or one of the civilans picked-up with Exile is possible too. So what was Kreia talking about when she told Exile she saved her/him? She states she found Exile and is responsible from saving her from the Sith...

First, the Harbinger didn't "see" the beat-up Ebon Hawk - they received a distress call from it. The Captain mentions in his logs that they received a message from a transport claiming to be under attack from a sith warship. You even get to see a cutscene, where he contacts an excited Carth/Cede who promptly orders the Harbinger to investigate and bring the Ebon Hawk back to Telos. Second, I've wondered about who all those (dead) people on the Ebon Hawk as well, but it might be that they are Sith soldiers who boarded the Ebon Hawk from the sith warship and were then killed in combat. Where 3C-FD came from is completely beyond me, though. i assume the underwear thing is how they are kept in kolto tanks. Since Exile was drugged in the kolto tank and brought on board the Ebon Hawk from there, HK-50, if he is indeed the one to take Exile onto the Ebon Hawk, wouldn't have bothered with getting clothes on the Exile. Um, it says they both picked-up a distress call and they picked-up a Sith firefight on their scanners. The dificulty i see with the notion they are Sith bodies is this; the Ebon Hawk was under attack when the distress call was sent out. When the Harbinger intercepted, it was said to be empty and have passengers. Anyway, there was no indication the Sith boarded the Ebon Hawk, and even if they did, it would mean they got killed by something on the ship. What would have been able to kill those Sith assassins? And if the assassins were killed by something on the ship, where did that something go? It is possible T3 did and got so damaged doing so. Also, the Harbinger crew took everyone, bodies and all, off the Ebon Hawk to do autopsies, which the medical officer spoke of so who is that dead person on the Ebon Hawk? There is also the question of how T3 knew to back to the Ebon Hawk to find Exile and got back onto the Ebon Hawk being a shambles if he was taken off by the Harbinger crew to study in their attempts to figure out what happened. Um, not quite. It is said to be HK-50 who put Exile into a cargo hold on the Harbinger and then bring Exile onto the Ebon Hawk. So it is unexplained how Kreia knew HK-50 would take Exile to the Ebon Hawk in the first place. Not only that, if the Ebon Hawk was damaged when the Harbinger took it, why would it then have been the ship of choice for esacpe, especially since HK-50 would not have known of its space worthiness, its specs, nor presumably, how to pilot the ship in the first place? *Enter Atton* IIRC, there is a log where the security chief talks about the droids going crazy and then mentions that he set up extra precautions around the cell (where Atton is captured) in order to prevent anything from happening there. Ironically Atton survives because they locked him down tightly... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He does, but HK-50 was controlling the droids in the control room, so it would not have been difficult to kill Atton. They obviously could open doors and the like since they got into the control room during the lock down. "from the last 5 years" that would be everything from the begining of KotOR until the start of KotOR II. So the question still begs, who deleted the years since Revan did leave even if Revan deleted the year previous to her/his leaving? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess those five years may be relative. We're not sure when Revan abandoned the droids, but then we're also not sure how long HK-47 has been shut down. He may simply mean the number of years he recollects having been erased, but not those during which he was shut down. So it really is difficult to say. i thought that would be why too, but after deliberation i realized he would know what year it is when he talks with Exile about it, wouldn't he? And it isn't really possible for him to have been shut down longer since we know he was active during the events of KotOR.

"from the last 5 years" that would be everything from the begining of KotOR until the start of KotOR II. So the question still begs, who deleted the years since Revan did leave even if Revan deleted the year previous to her/his leaving? The second question is, who is HK-47 then refering to as his master since it obviously can't be Revan unless he was recently brought into contact with Revan who then deleted his memory at that point? The third question is who dismantled HK-47? LOL That is true. i wonder how T3 managed to do that though... That would lend credence to the possibility Kreia really does know more about T3 than is brought to light. i don't understand the logic in his lying about it with him showing the holograms of Bastila and/or Carth. Exile knew Bastila, that gives Exile a lead to at the least do some research and know she is speaking of a powerful Jedi who fell to the dark side. And since in answering Atton's questions about Revan when Exile first meets him, Exile knows Revan fell by confirming Atton's story. Carth is a famous Republic hero. Exile would have a basis to do some snooping with that information too. Lying may delay Exile finding out, but to what end? "If I am being mean it's because I care" Nah, there must be some other explanation... The logs with regard to the Ebon Hawk are contradictory. The bridge logs state the Ebon Hawk was empty. The medical logs state (mild paraphrasing, didn't write down if she actually said "Ebon Hawk" or "freighter") "everyone on board the Ebon Hawk was dead" hence there were people on board. Also, with regards to the Sith vessel, there is contradictory information as well. The bridge logs state it was empty and like a ghost ship, but the medical logs state Sion was found, which is obviously the case since they had put him into a kolto tank and they had a hololog of Sion breaking out of the tank and wreaking havok. The med log after that has the medical officer stating Sion must be a Sith Lord just waiting for the right trigger to be woken. That also doesn't explain how Kreia nor that extra dead body just lying there got on board the Ebon Hawk . It also doesn't explain why the Harbinger would have picked-up on their sensors and then be rerouted to go investigate a Sith firefight going on in the opposide of the galaxy from Onderon where they were headed prior to picking up the passengers, of which Exile was one. But time between the 2 events could account for that. Sounds plausible to me. We must not forget however, that Atton plays the fool card once too often. I have a feeling Atton was after the Exile from the start (and not the money driving him to it), but I forget if it was actually mentioned in game. Why else would he pretend that he didn't know it was the Exile he was talking to? 'Oh, wait. You're that Jedi, aren't you?

We don't know. That is the point of contention. [Jediphile]Oh, come off it. I could make just the same accusation against you. Why is it somehow illegal for me to explain why I prefer the male Exile's story? It's a matter of opinion and not something that can be "proven" in any way. i had put effort into not contradicting my points. i re-read previous posts pertaining to the issue at hand specifically to stay consistent. i am certain i have made errors; however; i do believe i have been able to carry through the arguments i have been making logically and cohesively. i also have been consciously attempting to weigh wether my disagreeing with a point is because i want to make sure 'my side wins' (= bad), or wether i honestly believe it should be contested (= good). That having been said; i truly am sorry for making you feel speaking your mind is negative. It honestly wasn't my intent at all. But i guess as they say, intent isn't worth anything so all i can do is try to fix the problem. It isn't in the least bad or wrong for anyone to explain why they believe whichever Exile rendition they think should be cannon. [Hekate]and how was Atris' love any different? She reacted the exact same way to all Exile incarnations. Male Exile does not find out how she came to care for him, nor what occured between them. It was just as convoluted, underexplained, and unsatisfactory as Sion's was. If an unexplained reason for loving the player character is reason enough to discount it than Atris must be discounted too. [Jediphile]I don't agree with that. Atris actually lets it slip during your conversation with her in the Telos Academy, so even if lies beneath the surface most of the time, the Handmaiden pretty much says it out loud. Kreia comes close too. Atris: "There was much about that day that was difficult to forget - your words, your defiance - and when you stabbed your lightsaber into the center stone. I have kept it - so I would never forget.I have always kept it, as a reminder of what can happen when your passions dictate your actions.I have kept it, so I would never forget your arrogance or your insult to the Order.I suspected as much. You cared nothing for the trappings of the Jedi... and you cared nothing for the Order, even on that final day you came before us.So... you would fight me for it? You are not far removed from the monster who left the Order so long ago.Then you misunderstand its meaning while it is in my possession - and what it now represents. It is not yours. It is a symbol of something greater, which you no longer represent.Become a Jedi again? That is a thing far out of reach. But I am not unsympathetic to your feelings. Leaving the Order must have been difficult for you.Yet you gave the Council no other choice. You gave me no other choice.And you were ruled by hate and aggression! That is not the way of a Jedi!So your choice was to meet the aggression of the Mandalorians with more aggression? That is not the Jedi way!Every choice we make, whether we know it or not, sends echoes through the Force. It can awaken feelings, ignite passions, hate, anger, fear - where none existed before." This the first conversation she has with Exile. i just replayed from an old save and it is the exact same conversation she has with a female Exile. Her statement of "I have always kept it, as a reminder of what can happen when your passions dictate your actions." can be interpreted as her refering to Exile's passions for having gone off to fight in the war as opposed to her own passions for Exile. Even with male Exile and with the attraction between them, i heard it that way. Not to say the other isn't valid though. Directly after that confrontation, Handmaiden asks Atris if she is alright and why Exile has such a strong effect on her and Atris answers (minor paraphrasing since it went too fast to write it down) "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside". That is as close as it gets to establishing Atris' backstory with Exile in the sense of what is going on between them and why. From that statement, the player is with left only with the knowledge Atris looked up to Exile as a hero and she cared for Exile deep enough to still be affected by it 10 years later. [Jediphile]Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." It's right there, if we care to look for it. The upper portion describing how Atris is upset by Exile holds true for either sex of Exile as the previous paragraph emphasizes. Though i'm not saying there isn't the potential for romantic subtext. Brianna asking if Exile and Atris were involved; however; when i played through as male Exile, seemed to stem from her feelings for Exile, her curiosity about him and the Jedi culture revolving around love. Brianna seems to be a very self-oriented person in the sense of she relates to things and people by how she preceives and feels about things herself rather than what others may think and feel (not meant as an insult). So her asking if Exile cared for Atris romantically those 10 years ago as Jedi doesn't necessarily prove Atris feels that way about Exile though it does add credence to that argument. Does Atris herself ever tell male Exile she loves him? To clarify; there is no snarkiness intended, i honestly can't remember her doing so. Sion tells female Exile directly she is a presence in his mind, that he hates her because he finds her beautiful, and female Exile has the option in the dialogue of replying with "you are a presence in my mind as well" or similar. i do not recall anything direct like that occuring between Atris and male Exile. That is why i am asking if anyone does. If there isn't, then there is more direct Exile to Sion 'romance' than there is Exile to Atris 'romance'. The only reason i refer to Exile-Sion as romance is because he reacts differently to female Exile than male Exile. From what i recall, Atris does not. [Hekate]Leia didn't get captured by them, no, no. Instead she got the incredibly empowering role of standing by and watching the Ewoks attempt to bar-b-que Luke & co after her little yelp that was supposed to be a protest: "But they're my friends". I'd add an exclamation mark, but that would be misleading. Luke uses his wit to get them out of the situation. [Jediphile]No, he had the force, which is really a big advantage. And no, Leia wasn't captured. She saved Wicket's life and then decided to go with him. Not captured at all. She was free to leave whenever she wanted. It was when she began interfering with the captives that the Ewoks objected. He used his ingenuity to come up with the idea of levitating C3-PO, it was a clever idea. Whereas Leia stood by and had nothing to add after her initial protest. i was agreeing Leia wasn't captured by them. Infact, that she wasn't captured and did so little to attempt to help them is the weakness i was speaking of. [Jediphile]You seem to read a lot into that thong, but it is pretty humiliating for the guys to be captured like that too. But feel free to disagree all you want... It wouldn't matter if every single one of the those captured by the Ewoks were female and if it was Luke who was enslaved by Jabba instead. In that case Luke's predicament would have been more humiliating, moreso if he was forced to wear only a codpiece. Luke actively prevented Han from getting violent with the Ewoks so their capture was not from them being incompetent. Luke could lift the massive door into Jabba's place so certainly he could have knocked all the Ewoks on their butts if he had wanted to. It shouldn't be overly personally humiliating for them to have been captured in that way when they allowed it to happen. Being tied up and carried on a pole is humiliating, but Leia was chained around her neck, treated as a slave, and as a sexual object. That is more humiliating, especially with a crowd of unsavoury spectators to gawk and leer and her humiliation lasted longer than theirs. As far as the thong goes... it is a point of contention for me. It was not so much that it was in there as opposed to its execution. And it is a repeated theme in the SW universe i've been exposed to and i find it irksome. [Hekate]That fleeting yet blissful moment wherein we agreed that KotOR II with a well writen story with a female as the lead is a good thing. [Jediphile]You make it sound as if there can be "progress" only if I agree with you. In that case you're in for a disappointment. Besides agreeing that KotOR II was well written and that a female lead is good are two different things. I thought K2 was well written for the male Exile, but not the female Exile. I also think that a female lead need in no way need make a game "bad". I do not agree that having a female lead will by itself be a good thing, though - that's just misplaced sexism, since it suggests female leads are by definition somehow "better" better than male leads. i meant that KotOR II with a well writen female Exile lead would be a good story as something we agree on since we already agree on KotOR II with a well writen male Exile would be a good story. i never said a female lead just for the hell of it is a good thing either. Just look at alot of the tripe out there with female leads and it becomes quite apparent. As far as the female bias is concerned, suggesting there should be more strong female leads is not suggesting females are better. It is suggesting people are exposed to a significant imbalance in the female to male strong lead ratio. Again, to clarify, i am not suggesting there has to be and equal amount. Nor am i suggesting strong male leads should be sacrificed in the pursuit of improving representation. The already massive amounts of strong male leads will not be somehow damaged nor reduced in significance should more strong female leads be added to the roster. [Jediphile]She knew of Atris' love for the Exile and asks him about it, thereby making it clear that he is aware of it. The only way that is not relevant to the overall plot is if Atris is not an important character, and that is not the case. Atris leaked the information about the meeting on Katarr to the Sith. Atris arranged for the Exile's return so that he/she would be a target for the Sith that would make them reveal themselves. Atris is the chief manipulator staging events early in the plot. There is no way she is not essential to the evolving plot. In the passage you quoted earlier, Jediphile, Brianna does not say Atris loved Exile. It states Brianna sees how Atris is affected by Exile, not why. It is suggestive, but not direct. She even has to ask Exile if he and Atris were involved since she herself doesn't know. In the earlier argument about Brianna's relevance to the plot, her revealing Atris loves Exile would be significant, but she didn't. Therefore Brianna's significance is what was stated in earlier posts. [Jediphile]That and the introduction to Bao-Dur are among some of the worst parts of the game. It's okay that things are kept from me as a player, but not if they are things that my character clearly knows, while I do not. How the heck am I supposed to identify with *my* character if I'm not allowed to know him?!? Exactly. Things are thrown in as "by the way..." and that really irks me. We would have no idea Exile taught younglings nor that Exile was to take on a padawan if it wasn't for Mical, and she didn't even recognize him!. i would say that is very significant since Exile leaving had a big impact on people in a personal way, which one would think a player should know about their own character. Exile is reduced to an oblivious and clueless character. With all these things thrown in in that fashion, it seems as if depth was attempted to be added as an afterthought. [Jediphile]Not saying it is, but it still hurts his significance as a character. Because what use it that he can figure these things out if they are not allowed to impact the plot? Good question. The reason i state what Mical brought to the plot about the echoes and their importance is because it brought that to the player. i was so lost about all that echoes and wound in the Force stuff. When i heard Mical talk about it with Kreia, it made sense. That didn't last long since the Jedi Masters and Kreia muck it all up again with their contradictions, but at least for that brief respite, i had that clarity. And the line of argument i was following with defending Mical's significance came from the standpoint of what a character brought to the overarcing storyline of the echoes and all that as a whole. [Jediphile]Not a part of the main plot, and the Exile is presumed to find out about it just afterwards anyway. You can make just the same argument for Atton's fight with the twi'lek sisters, with T3's adventures in the warehouse, with the opening of the attempt to rescue the Exile from GOTO's yacht, and with the assault on Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun... We never hear anyone telling the Exile about these things, but it is presumed that he/she learns of them. Yes. That was my point exactly about Mical. [Jediphile]Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks." That is not the only thing he has to say about Revan and the Jedi Civil War. He later speaks of how he thinks Revan seemed to be attempting to unite the galaxy. [Jediphile]Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... Well, bless me for being an idiot. [Hekate]That isn't taking in the whole picture though. He obviously thinks there is some chance since he took the risk of asking Bao-Dur about it. i also cannot see what magician's hat you pulled the notion of his loving her on an idealized and platonic level from. [Jediphile]Kreia: "Atton is, as always, the fool. And the Force watches out for ones such as him, I feel. As it does for the old such as I. There is no love left in a heart such as that one. But he would die for you, yes." Since when does what Kreia has to say about anybody carry such a huge significance? She states Visas cannot be trusted, Bao-Dur's thoughts are irrelevant just because she can't read them eventhough that is the first time Malachor V's impact is hinted at through his toughts, etc. Visas is loyal, Boa-Dur's thoughts are important, etc. And saying there is no love left in his heart is different than saying he loves her in an idealized way. According to Kreia, Atton doesn't love Exile at all. [Jediphile]Ah, but Atton has no choice but to see it that way if he is to live with himself, does he? I mean, if he's wrong, then what he has done is inexcusable, and though the Exile might - as Kreia puts it - forgive him for it, Atton would never be able to forgive himself. So he shifts the blame. It wasn't his fault - it was the jedi's fault. He lies to himself, but that is the only way he can bear to live, since he would be consumed by his own guilt if he didn't insist on keeping it at arms length like this. That adds to his complexity... And yeah, i do think he has a choice, and he opts to use it. i do not concur he places all the blame on the Jedi. What he did is inexcusable, and he knows it. He didn't say Revan made him torture Jedi, he says he enjoyed breaking them. And yes, he lies to himself, to everyone actually, but he also is honest with himself and others too, and these varrying forces being exerted on him as well as how he reacts to them are complex. i doubt very many people could look at Atton and know what he is thinking, nor could any given person know how he will respond to any given situation. He is a master at obscuring any sense of certainty people may feel they have in understanding him. That requires a multi-layered and difficult to understand thought process. He also states himself he hasn't known who he is for years. He is in constant psychological turmoil and he is trying to figure out who and what he wants to be. These are traits of complexity rather than simplicity. [Jediphile]What Atton sees in the female Exile is someone who has done something terrible (like himself), but who may atone and be redeemed in spite of her crimes. She is an ideal, because if she can be redeemed, then maybe - just maybe - he can too. But it's just a hope - he doesn't believe it himself. And I'm not sure how aware he is of it all himself. It may all well take place entirely on Atton's subconscious levels, given all the terrors of his past that he is constantly fleeing from. i doubt those thoughts are solely in his sub-conscious. They are probably all that keeps him going sometimes. My point was, even with thinking these things, he still sees the other side of it. He is fully aware nothing can erase the karmic burden of either of their pasts, thus, i don't think he is looking for redemption in the Jedi sense, and especially not for redemption through her. He full well knows becoming LS and staying there will not make up for the consequences of either of their actions. He wants her to love him for who he is right now, eventhough he isn't sure of who he is nor what he is. But if she does, he will have difficulty accepting it because he has difficulty accepting himself. That isn't to say he would necessarily reject it, because through it, he could very well find the means to heal. And maybe, just maybe, he could help her to heal too. That he experiences so many inner conflicts and he thinks about them on many different levels and in many different ways makes him a complex person. Many interwoven parts interacting with eachother in different ways and all. To add to his complexity, Atton has a derserter complex to boot. [Jediphile]In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile i don't have a problem with it. What i do have a problem with is when it is given more weight than anyone elses. [Jediphile]To an extent. But what really draws Brianna to the male Exile, I think, is what she projects onto him of her lost father. So Brianna has a father complex? i don't know. i'm sure it is possible, but i thought the similarity she saw between Exile and her father was the burden they carried. She is similar to her father with falling for a Jedi. But the most important thing to her about her father was to prove how she isn't a betrayer as he was. That is alot more about her than about Exile. [Jediphile]No, by virtue of Atris letting it slip to the Exile and more so the Handmaiden sisters and by Brianna telling the Exile. We may not know what specifically made Atris fall in love with the Exile, but given the long years of training he went through in her proximity, it is easy to accept that something might have taken place between them. It may even be explained just by virtue of the Exile's forcebonding abilities, which ties people to him even without his knowledge. The point of contention with regards to Sion's feelings for Exile was they were not explained. The player has no context of why he cares for her. i said the same is true for Atris. The player has no clue why Atris cares for Exile. One certainly can assume a great many reasons why she might however, we simply do not know. We do not know if they were in close proximity to eachother when Exile was on Dantooine, we do not know if they share a Force bond, we don't even know if she loves him at all unless someone can enlighten us on that. But even if she does, it is not given context either, so given Sion actually speaks with female Exile about his feelings whereas Atris does not speak to male Exile of hers, one cannot dismiss the significance of Sion's impact as a potential romantic involvement. And since weight is given to Atris' love by virtue of a possible lengthy time she and Exile knew eachother, than it is impossible to write off Mical's significance to Exile since his connection to her is actually revealed in-game. A padawan-Jedi relationship is a very significant one, from what i can tell. How is that not important and binding? [Jediphile]The difference is that Sion and Exile have no connection - they are complete strangers to each other, whereas the Exile and Atris has known each other for long years. That leaves little or no room for Sion to fall in love with the female Exile, but plenty for Atris to fall in love with the male Exile. We don't know that they are strangers any more than we know why Atris sees any of the Exile incarnations as a hero. And even if Sion develops feelings for Exile over the course of the game, that does not make it irrelevant. To have an antagonist develop an affinity for the protagonist is usually interesting, especially if the antagonist is aware s/he is going to be put into an unavoidable conflict with the protagonist. As i have said, Sion has potential. [Hekate]How is the unknown explanation of why Atris loves male Exile more compelling than the unknown reason of why Atris respects and admires all Exile incarnations? Just because it is a romance plot? Is respecting someone genuinely more difficult to fathom than loving someone? i'd say in daily life respecting comes more often than loving on the whole. [Jediphile]Respect is earned through the observations you make about other people, and those are always tied to specific events or But those are unknown to us, and so leaves the story stranded. Love is a feeling, however, and feelings often just are with little or no explanation. I find it entirely believable that Atris may have developed feeling that she did not intend toward the Exile during their long years serving together at the Academy. How is it there is a difference in how much respect and hero worship are feelings versus attraction? What i am hearing you say is they were at the academy together for a long time. That gave plenty of opportunity for Atris to fall for Exile. But them being together a long time at the academy is not enough reason for Atris to have come to respect and admire Exile. How can i possibly make a counter to an argument that has a bias as its basis? All i can do is say things should be kept on an equal ground in order for the debate to be able to amount to anything. i would argue if she had time to fall in love with him, she had time to come to respect Exile. [Jediphile]No, but Anakin just lost his mother. That's a pretty strong relationship. Is it unreasonable that he should feel angry over the sandpeople murdering her? That wasn't the point though. The point was in an earlier post it was stated he turned to the dark side because of Padme. i disagreed with that assumption and countered with my own about his fall had to do with himself which eventually lead to my saying he committed the attrocity with the Sandpeople before she gave in to her feelings for him. i wasn't saying Anakin shouldn't have been angry over his mother being torture to death. [Jediphile]How can he possibly expect her to love him after he murdered defenseless children? Pretty silly, but he did expect it, which tells us much of how deluded an individual he had become. What i found very disturbing is she accepted he murdered defenceless Sandpeople children. She didn't bat an eye at it and comforted him instead. She is a senator, for crying out loud, who fought for her people's freedom. i found that to be extremely out of character for her to do. And it is for those reasons, as well as the ones i pointed out in earlier posts, i said Padme became a weak character after the first movie. [Jediphile]When we first meet Visas, she is, in spite of her strengths, broken upon Nihilus' will. But I'm not sure if the Exile understands her, and even if the Exile does, you know I have my own speculations about why that is, which have to do with the ties between the Exile and Nihilus. Once Visas confronts the Exile, however, Nihilus' control over her is broken, and becomes far more determined and self-aware. And she becomes dedicated to the goal of destroying Nihilus, so that other worlds will not suffer the same fate as Katarr. Visas is willing to destroy herself in the pursuit of that goal, because in some ways she feels guilt over having survived when all others on Katarr died. Yes. And that is why i thought she was easier for Exile to read and why Exile wouldn't be too worried about her betraying him. [Jediphile]Atris is strong-willed, but her convictions have been perverted as her true self has been slowly eroded under the strain the sith holocrons have subjected her to. Like Boromir, she tried to use the power of the enemy against the enemy and instead fell as a consequence of her presumption to be able to control it. The change is subtle, however, and Atris was too blind and proud to see the danger. However, what I like about the male Exile's plot is that he may inadvertently have caused her initial fall, when she was unsure of her feelings and began lying to herself in order to maintain her sense of self. In doing so she made herself proud and aloof - above such simple feelings as love. It's a lie, of course, and one that the sith holocrons then exploit to cause her fall. Which happens to her even with female Exile. And that is why i said i find it more intence that Atris began to question and doubt because of Exile without the need for the usual self-doubt and confusion that goes along with attraction. That Atris was so deeply affected by Exile because of Exile (what Atris sees in Exile, etc) and not because of the attraction factor which invariably lends itself to seeing a person differently. i find that to be more powerful. To have a person who can see another for who and what s/he really is without attraction muddling things up, and to have the person become so disillusioned because the other is following a different path, is a very powerful image. Surely, with attraction in the mix it adds intensity and all that. i'm not dismissing it. i can see the appeal in it. i just find the other more compelling. [Hekate]And here is where i find the discrepancy of how the weighing of the merrit of a character's complexity and worth as a potential love interest becomes disturbing. Bao-Dur is single handedly responsible for creating and then activating the mass shadow generator. He killed millions (?) with his own hands at the trigger. He made that weapon of mass destruction possible. That is one hell of a burden to live with. Close to the opposite of what Visas must endure. He carries all that same pain Exile does, albeit differently, and he has the added buren of guilt. Exile gave the order, but it is Bao-Dur who carried it out. And he faces what he has done. Not only that, he wishes to set things as right as he can for what he has done. Atris hides in her academy, scheming with delusions she is still a Jedi and she hasn't fallen. Bao-Dur works for Telos and the Ithorians, and he even wreaks a little havok with Czerka. He maintains ethics even through ghastly experiences. He is strong, complex, and compelling as a character. But the player has no clue about Malachor V in any substantial way until late in the game when Bao-Dur speaks of it in more detail through recounting his dream. It is eluded to, but not explained. He has many waring emotional factions within himself, which he is dealing with as a constant. That he is doing something productive in and of itself is remarkable. He has a very complex psyche, and the fact he can't do anything about the General having an effect on him despite his wishing it otherwise and actively fighting that inclination is compelling. He also forces Exile to stop hiding and face reality with Exile being told it is time for her/him to construct her/his lightsabre. [Jediphile]I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. Bao-Dur simplifying things, seeing things as he would a schematic so to speak, requires him to be able to see the big picture for him to simplify it. He does not only see bits and pieces, he sees the whole and how it all works, than he reduces it to a manageable size. An engineer has to consider not only the building itself, but also the soil, the weather conditions, the weight of what is being housed in the structure and well as that of those who enter it and the materials used to build it, etc. It also requires complexity of thought to be able to reduce the big into cohesive and workable small. As in math, to simplify one must first expand. [Hekate]Now the question is if attraction detracts from his and female Exile's relationship. i look at it this way, their attraction does not take away from what they have shared, nor does it diminish them as individuals. It doesn't minimize nor trivialize their friendship based relationship either. Female Exile and Bao-Dur have the same under current as male Exile and Bao-Dur. [Jediphile]Yes, but a presumed romance complicates things, and that is not a quality for Bao-Dur for the reasons given above. Any romance would complicate things for him since those feelings cannot so easily be simplified, they cannot be controled, and alot of the time they are irrational. i would think though that Bao-Dur being attracted to his General would have the contradictory effects of both simplifying and complicating. It simplifies things greatly that it was she who ordered the activation of the MSG, which makes it all the more complicated at the same time. They are definitely in that mess together by virtue of their roles with regards to Malachor V. And just because them having feelings for eachother complicates things, doesn't mean it would be out of character for Bao-Dur. i would think someone who understands what he is going through would be a big relief. It also allows him to find some measure of being able to forgive himself, as you described with Atton, if she sees enough worth in him to love him. [Hekate]The second point about female Exile being potentially repulsed is moot since Exile could be potentially put off by any and/or all of them. And if she does get horrified it doesn't prevent it from being meaningful. It is heartbreaking. [Jediphile]You're *supposed* to be repulsed by Atris. If not sooner, the Exile will be once he/she learns that she was the one who leaked the knowledge of the Jedi meeting on Katarr to the Sith. For Atris, it's only a matter of time before you're repulsed. Bao-Dur is not supposed to repulse you, however, since he will be essential to the choice you must later make on Malachor V (well, in the LS ending, anyway). Good point about Atris. Eventhough i was personally repulsed by what she had done i didn't transfer that feeling onto Exile. Strange. i wonder why.... *internal pondering* i don't know if Exile isn't supposed to be repulsed by Bao-Dur though, but i don't mean it in the repulsed by his loving her way as we were discussing before, i mean in the what he represents way. That he can't forgive himself but forgives Exile so easily, that must be hard for Exile to accept. It is almost ignoring the severity of the role Exile had which is ignoring reality. Which then makes one wonder if Bao-Dur truly feels Exile isn't to blame or if he needs to convince himself of that in order for him to be able to tollerate being in Exile's presence. There is that attraction-repulsion factor that plays between them, regardless of Exile's sex. That he can't forgive himself at all must also be hard for Exile to accept because that signifies the actions they took that day over Malachor V cannot be so easily forgotten and its effects linger within, even if one chooses not to deal with them which seems to be Exile's way. [Jediphile]You keep insisting that the male Exile knows nothing of Atris' feelings for him, yet as I've shown clearly above, that is not correct. Atris is essential to how the plot unfolds. That is a fact. Mical is not, however, because he doesn't add anything that you cannot learn from other sources. You may think he explains things better or sooner than other characters, but that still doesn't make his presence essential. i keep insisting on the fact we have no clue how Atris came to be attracted to male Exile nor why because it is fact. And that this very same aspect of the player not knowing why Sion cares for female Exile is enough to discount him, than that has to apply to Atris too. That was the point i was making. It is wrong to apply different standards under the same point. Unless someone can bring to light Atris revealing her attraction for male Exile, it is an assumption it is there at all. i am not dismissing the possibility Atris loves him, and if she does, it certainly does add to the confusion and emotional pull of their interaction. Mical does bring information about Exile one does not get from any other source as i have explained above. [Jediphile]Also, as I've said several times now, Brianna has ties to the Exile through her parents. I will retain the right to continue to point that out as long as you continue to ignore and/or dismiss it. i am not ignoring nor dismissing the fact Brianna's parents have ties to Revan and to Malahor V. Exile has a tie to Kae if she was a soldier under her/him, and if Kae was killed because of the MSG. Yusanis is tied to Revan and not Exile since he was the leader of the Echani and had his own command. We do not know if Yusanis and Exile were aquainted or not, though since it isn't mentioned, as with Kae, it is likely they were not aquainted. The original disagreement was that Brianna had no first-hand personal ties to Exile's past. She still doesn't. That her parents did means little since that would be like saying hypothetically if she knew Master Kavar that would link her and Exile. It wouldn't. That would only mean they know a person in common. Brianna is personally tied to Atris, that is true. And Atris it tied to Exile. But until Brianna met Exile, other than Atris' obsession with him and all that is related to that, he meant nothing to her, nor she to him. And that was used to as a basis to contrast that to Mical who indeed had personal ties to Exile. It is a fair comparisson to make. Just as it is fair to make the comparisson that Brianna has a tie to Atris that Mical doesn't. Actually, he does. Substitute Mical with Atton. [Jediphile]So Mical was supposed to become the Exile's padawan. So what? The Exile is also suggested to have been destined to be trained by Kavar. Does that give Kavar special significance in the story? No, it doesn't. It's just an interesting little piece of information. It does not give Kavar any more or less significance in the plot. "So what?" indeed. i must admit i am at a loss as to why Brianna's connection to Exile through her parents is given so much weight when Exile's intended padawan whom she walked out on and irrevokably changed his life isn't. The master-padawan relationship is masively meaningful. And even if Exile supposing to be trained by Kavar isn't important to the plot, it is important to their relationship. [Hekate] IIRC, which i indeed may not be, Bastila had that super cool battle meditation which guaranteed her padawanship regardless of her lack of self-control and her haughtiness. i am not sure though whether she told Carth on Taris in KotOR her battle meditation hadn't manifested itself yet or hadn't fully manifested itself yet by the time Revan joined the Mandalorian Wars. Even if not, isn't really too relevant. Mical has never lied at any other point. The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... [Jediphile]Well, excuse me for pointing out gaping plot holes... I shall endeavour not to do such heinous acts in the future Was that *choked with emotion* sarcasm? Et tu Jediphile, et tu. [Jediphile]But it's interesting that you should bring up "blatant Brianna fanboyism". Given how much thought you give to the subject, clearly it would be completely unreasonable to suspect you of "blatant Mical fangirlism"... " Methinks thou doth protest too strongly... Perhaps too strongly but certainly not unjustified. i was getting very frustrated by the time i wrote that and i probably shouldn't have, but you did use the fanboy argument against people who defended Revan in a different thread so i thought i'd throw it in as a little touch of irony and humour, especially since the parenthesis directly preceeded my comment of rational debate. That's why i added the thong reference too, for humour. Guess its all in the delivery though, so obviously it didn't have the intended effect. i take it i shouldn't quit my day job to become a comic then, eh? Mical fanboyism? *shiver* LOL Please! i don't like how they made his character. It was creepy and not in the good way. i found it difficult to make it through his talks. But i can still point out his worth as a character. i didn't much care for G0-T0 either and found some of his speeches difficult to sit through as well but i still see his worth in the plot. i found alot of the time when HK-47 went on to be difficult to listen to as well, but i still appreciate his worth. If the debate was about who was the creepyist, Mical woud be right up there if not at the top. [Jediphile]But no indication to the contrary either. And in any event, it has no impact or consequence to the game's plot whatsoever. We can assume or suppose whatever we want about it, because it just doesn't matter. How did Carth/Cede know the Sith were on their way to Telos? i assumed Mical would have informed his superiors in his reports. Them being there to counter it is significant. Of course that Carth thanks Exile for the second chance to defend Telos even with Mical not on board would indicate Exile, or one of the crew, 'phoned ahead'. Either way, i seriously doubt he would just stop working for the Republic given how attached he is to it. It does matter to the plot if he is keeping the Republic updated on what is transpiring with Exile and the lost Jedi. [Jediphile]If he just sat around for all those years pining for the Exile, then I don't think that is so much romantic as just sad... He was no longer in the jedi order, so he could actually have gone to look for her, but nooooo... Yes, that obviously makes for good characterization He had medical training, got a job working for the Republic, had a life basically. It doesn't seem as if all he did was pine... And why would he go look for her? She obviously didn't want to be found. That would make him even more obsessed than Atris to stalk the whole Outer Rim looking for her. Besides, she left him to go to war. He understood her choice of defending the peoples affected by the Mandalorian's assaults was more important to her than her fulfilling her Jedi duty to become an apprentice's master. She made her choice. He moved on. [Hekate]My, my. Atton slaggin' time. Alright, i'll play too. Atton was simple because he had a complicated history. No, that doesn't work. Hmm... Atton is simple because he seems laid back and carefree but is always on his guard and very perceptive. That doesn't work either... Seems i'm not so good at this game. Seriously now, anyone who can keep track of everyone's business as well as galactic business, learns new skills faster than Einstein on speed, has a multitude of difficult to learn skills, is a social chameleon, can put up resistance to Kreia, has switched loyalties a few times and his own identity, and can read situations better than anyone else on the crew is not a simple character. His very thought process is fascinating. But the very fact he is constantly thinking subversively means he has developed a sub-level thought process that goes on under the surface, as is seen with mulit-tasking. He doesn't see things in cut and dry terms, he sees between the obvious. He can be callous and he can be caring. All that and my previous post point towards the "not simple" argument. But every character can be reduced the status of simple with enough simplifying. [Jediphile]You seem to see the word "complex" as meaning having a deep history. However, that is not quite right. Complex: A: 1. Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts; composite. 2. Composed of two or more units: a complex carbohydrate. B: Involved or intricate, as in structure; complicated. Hey, someone has their claws out today. i thought by describing how his thought processes are multi-layered and have many different levels to them, etc was well within the the realm of complexity. i maintain that. And i speak more of it above. [Jediphile]Atton has a long and massive history, but that does not make him a complex person. He is not "interconnected" or "interwoven" by many parts. All he has become can be traced back to his experiences while he worked for the sith. It's a long story. It's a deep story. But once you know it, you understand who and what Atton is now, for better or worse, and his choices and motives will no longer surprise you. And as I've said before, "simple" does not mean "idiotic" or "half-witted". i completely disagree with that. Atton is the only one whose motives are difficult to fathom. Even he isn't certain what they are. And a complicated history invariably leads to a complex persona. i didn't take you saying he is simple as an idication you thought he is uninteligent. i took it as you said early: easy to understand. i still cannot see how Atton is simple. [Jediphile]And cut the sarcasm - it's not your strong point. It is also distracting from the issue at hand, and may therefore be contrued as an attempt to subvert the discussion, which I doubt is your intention. You're absolutely right it isn't my intent to subvert the discussion using sarcasm. i was expressing my frustration and annoyance with the fact we could not agree that Atton is complex. It is your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it, but it still bothers me that it seems to be a rather obvious fact and yet it is refuted. That is my issue though, but i just thought i should explain why i got annoyed. i concede your sarcasm is mightier than mine and that it doesn't subvert from the discusion, other than when quoting dictionary definitions. That was ironically stating 'Atton isn't an idiot simpleton but you are'. Although i assume that was not your intent since you don't do that in your other posts that i've read. So, i will try to refrain from using sardonicism and sarcasm. [Hekate]Oh, BTW, i felt the term fool fit quite appropriately to Atton in the historical context. When i think of the Shakespearean fool and the fool of the tarot, that is a fairly decent representation of Atton. And the fool is not foolish nor simple. Fools moves to the beat of their own drum and learn alot on the way. They are smart and versatile, but have their own slew of bagage. Sounds like Atton. [Jediphile]Now I'm wondering how you'll explain Kreia calling Atton an "imbecile" really means that she praises his intellect and how he's the deepest and most perceptive person alive... i explain it by saying Kreia herself is complex and she likes leaving uncertainty and self-doubt in people. i thought she wouldn't intentionally be redundent, which she would be if she called Atton "an idiot and an imbecile". That is why i thought 'fool' is significant as a term. [Jediphile]And how long did that take her? It was not a true struggle, no. The spider had the fly in its web. There was no escape. Yet the spider was amused by the fly's futile attempts to resist and free it self. It played with the fly for its own dark amusement for a moment, revelling in the terror of its victim. But then the delight passed, and the spider got to work on its helpless victim, which then promptly succumbed... Kreia says to him when she is forcing her way into his mind "you are a slippery one, and your thoughts are difficult even for one such as I to read". [Jediphile]She didn't. She hid from them until she was content to reveal herself. Besides, if she messed with their minds, she would have abandoned one of her goals, which was to justify her own teachings to them. Kreia joins the meeting with the masters because she wants to present the Exile as evidence of her philosophies. She did hope until the last that she could justify herself and make them see her point. It's when they refuse that their fates are sealed. Assuming LS ending, that - since otherwise the masters are dead and the point is moot. When Exile asks Kreia why the Jedi Masters never mentioned her it was argued that Kreia had altered their minds with those techniques and made them forget about her entirely. She did a number on Atris since Atris could not remember her being in her own academy. She remembered Atton and Bao-Dur but not Kreia. Kreia is in the party when they meet up with Master Kavar and he doesn't react to her presence, almost as if she wasn't even there. The same goes for Master Vrook if Kreia is in the party when meeting him. Obviously she was affecting their minds since on Dantooine when the Masters are gathered, they freak out at her presence. [Hekate]Yup. Sure did. Yet when i said that about Atton's relevance in the plot you propmtly told me that that is Revan and not Exile. So, which is it? i prefer to think Revan is important, but to support that Atton isn't than Revan has to be discounted. But alas, that then weakens Brianna's significance too... What to do? What to do?!? Nah, i'm just riling you. But let me know once you decide... :ph34r: [Jediphile]You were the one to introduce the idea that the plots must have direct consequence to the Exile and so that he/she is aware of too, so you'll have to answer that question yourself. You did that so you could dismiss the significance of Brianna in the plot compared to Mical. Do you regret that now? No regrets! i was pointing out Brianna's significance to Exile's past in that context. i did not say she isn't significant. As i said before, when measuring the potential romantic people's ability to get more physically intimate with Exile, Brianna wins. If Atton and female Exile played Nar Shadda rules, that would be a different story. But they didn't, so Brianna definitely carries the weight in that context. [Jediphile]Still amounts to pretty much the same thing in my book... Fair enough i suppose. But he does add stuff no one else does and that's what was being questioned so i pointed it out.

As Hassat Hunter pointed out on the previous page: "...I was crudely interrogated concerning our brief history together on board the Harbinger... before its communications, weapons, and engines suffered the cascade failure that disabled the ship.Speculation: It is possible you were incapacitated and locked in the well-shielded cargo compartment as the Harbinger was being systematically crippled, master.Recitation: Following the unusual set of coincidences that led to the cascade failure in the Harbinger's systems..." In the Harbinger's medical logs the medical officer confirms what HK-50 said "ever since we picked-up that Sith firefight in the region.." then goes on to state crew members aren't reporting for duty and have been having difficulties. In the brige logs the captain repeats what HK-50 said about the cascading systems failiures. IIRC (i forgot to write it down 'cuse i'm tired) in that one it isn't clear if they occured before or after they intercepted the Sith ship and the Ebon Hawk.

Methinks, if siding with Kreia, you have to defend her 3 times, then you're done. At least that is how i remember it.

[Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]I do agree that the Exile was fairly weakly characterized, but given your call for strong female leads, that actually sounds like more of an argument for a male Exile, I think... LOL Yeah, i thought of that too, but i would assume in any other type of work derived from KotOR II Exile would be improved upon in that regard. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Because any narrative plot, whether in movies, books, tv-shows, or even computer games should be founded on good writing and not trying cater to a basis of equality. Given that, how is female Exile found to be lacking any more than male Exile? [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]So, yes, I'd be hard pressed to point to a game where I played the female lead and liked it. However, this is more because such games are rare (to say the least) and often try to sell themselves on that aspect alone rather than being good plot Which is clearly not the case with KotOR II. So again, for the umpteenth time, why the difficulty with cannon female Exile? [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]That's not a fair basis of comparison, because at that point Luke had trained for years for that confrontation alone, and even then he admits to Obi-Wan that he cannot face Vader. Yet he does... and wins. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Leia just had it dropped in her lap in two seconds and had to deal with it all at the same time, "yes, I'm your brother, oh, and Vader's our father - so what do you think?" Is a strong reaction unjustified in this case? I think not. Besides, Luke himself did indeed flee when he learned the truth, so how can you blame Leia for it? And you're misinterpreting Leia's motives too, I think. She wasn't trying to flee because she feared Vader, she was trying to make Luke flee, because she was afraid of what would happen to him if he faced Vader. Her concerns were never for herself. You're right that Leia in RotJ told Luke to flee without thinking she should. That was my mistake. Luke fled because he was getting his arse kicked and he just had his hand cut off. Not unexpected considering Luke was inexperienced and ditched his training with Yoda to go confront Vader. Yet going to meet Vader, he was fully self-confident facing him. He even became c0cky. Where Leia is concerned, you're absolutely right she didn't have much time to deal with it, nor did she understand the whole Jedi Code and that Luke has to be the one to face Vader. And that is because Luke is the lead character and Leia is not. As far as the Dark Empire comics go, haven't read 'em so i wouldn't know. However in the novels preceeding episode VI, i thought Leia refused all forms of Force training since it would impede her duties as a senator since the others would be suspicious she would use the Force to influence them. Don't know for sure though 'cause i heard that second hand. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]No, Leia is clearly stronger in her convictions than Luke, and Luke knows it too. Sure, at this point Luke has become fairly strong and self-confident, but it took this long for him to get anywhere close to the point where Leia already was. She never doubts her skills or duties, and she never thinks of her own safety as she pursues them. i wouldn't know how to argue that one way or the other. What i do know is that Leia got caught by Jabba trying to rescue Han, and she is humiliated by being made into Jabba's plaything. To add insult to injury, she has to wear that lovely thong with a modesty cover patch of which Bianna's outfit is reminiscent. She is in chains and forced to endure Jabba fondling her. She does get to strangle him though, but only at the opportunity Luke presents. Luke waltzes in using Force powers, beats a Rancor, saves the day, and again saves Leia with a conveniently placed swinging line. Which one seems more heroic and self-confident to you? Leia may very well be strong in her convictions, however it cannot be said that Luke isn't. He was very certain of himself about almost everything when it came down to it. It doesn't mean his convictions were right (ie assuming Yoda had to be a tough guy), it just means he felt strongly about them. He did decide to go rescue Leia while in the midst of an entire Death Star full of the empire's soldiers. That takes conviction and confidence. He displays those traits in all the movies. The only time he lost his self-confidence was with lifting his x-wing out of the swamp. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Padme is a pretty strong character. She doesn't have force powers, of course, but she don't need to in order to be a strong character. I could mention Mara Jade or Nomi Sunrider, but then people always get miffed when we bring up characters from the books or comics or other bits of the EU. Funny, really, given that KotOR is EU... Padme was a strong character in The Phantom Menace. She became less and less strong as the other 2 progressed. By the end of the 3rd, she died from a lack of will to live because of what Anakin had become. How much more weak can a character get then to die from giving up? Don't know enough about Mara Jade nor Nomi Sunrider to make a call either way. But the point is, a disproportionate amount of strong female characters become weak as the story progresses, and overall there are too few strong female leads. Naming Nomi, Mara, Leia, emphasizes this when put in the context of how many males would be on the strong lead list. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]No problem for me. Just write appropriately strong plot for it. (w00t) So technically you are agreeing with me. i am glad 'cause i was really startin' to worry. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]K2 is simply stronger plot with the LSM Exile IMHO. And with that we lose the progress we had made. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]The conversations with Disciple never had that impact on me. Mostly they were just boring rehash of what I'd already heard from Kreia or one of the masters. I learned far more of the Exile's powers and bond from talking to Zez-Kai Ell than I did from listening to Disciple. i am fairly certain Zez-Kai Ell never spoke of Exile being a wound in the Force. i am also fairly certain he did not imply there is a connection to all of this through Malachor V. Those revelations were left for the big "ta-da" when the Jedi Council tells Exile all that stuff. The only way to find out what the others are yappin' about is when Kreia finally stops playing with Disciple and she gets him to tell her what he has figured out. Then they discuss the echoes, how the planets involved are significant and not random, and how it has the potential to kill all life if the wound isn't healed. Mical also informs Exile he has figured out that Revan was not out to destroy the Republic, but rather to protect it.That made things clear in a way it isn't anywhere else in the game. As has been seen in other threads, the Jedi Masters and Kreia contradict themselves in their explanations of the Force wound, the Exile, and all that. The only point where there was clarity and no contradictions was with Mical. Whether it was boring or not is irrelevant. It made sense. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]As for the other characters being "extraneous": Um, my asking if the other people should be considered to be extraneous was to emphasize the point of; whether questioning the worth of the NPCs based solely on what they brought to Exile with plot revelations is good. In other words, they were not extraneous and the NPCs should not be disregarded because of it. i guess my wording isn't very clear for it to cause such confusion. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Because I wouldn't know if the female Exile loved him or just pitied him, or even if Atton loves her simply because he knows he can never have her. Either way, is it really love? For the Exile it could just be pity, and for Atton it could just be fantasy. Yet in an earlier statement you say not knowing if Visas loves Exile for him or because he can defeat Nihilus makes it better: That is not applying the same rules across the board equally. No one knows how Exile feels about any of the NPCs because Exile never gets a chance to express her/his feelings. That does not just apply to Atton. Visas is the one who begged him to let her look on him. His responses, which i was quite unimpressed with actually, were very non-commital and quite dismissive. There came no resolution to how Exile felt about anything. Thus we can question every single one of every Exile incarnation's relationships. And on top of that, whether Atton could have her or not is up to her and not up to Kreia. If one uses Kreia having said that about Atton as an argument to decide his love is unrequitted, than none of Exile's potential relationships could ever come to fruition since Kreia disapproves of them all. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Atton seems to think so... Atton: "Oh, yeah, one other thing - don't think I haven't noticed the way you've been sparring with our ex-Jedi friend. This isn't some pleasure yacht, so if I did know all the Echani movements, I might know more than just the first tier, including the etiquette rituals. So keep your hands where I can see them." i've answered this in my previous post. i will also add Atton is taking a shot at Brianna by saying "keep your hands where I can see them" as if she would try to get fiesty with him. Brianna not trusting Atton is specifically because he knows the Echani ways and he presents a threat to her since he could come right out and tell Exile what she is doing. She obviously hasn't pursued that though beyond the thong, else Atton would not present a threat to her. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:50 AM]Fair enough, but there is still no romance in that. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]The problem is that I don't believe that the female Exile loves Atton. Neither does Atton, for that matter... i can't debate how you feel, obviously. But that Atton feels Exile doesn't love him has to do with his own issues and not with Exile. As i've stated before, no one knows what Exile feels, possibly other than the devs at Obsidian, because there is no venue for Exile to express her/himself in the game. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]And I don't agree that he has more impact than anyone else. Sure, his secret is significant to Revan's corrupting influence, but you could say the same about Bao-Dur's doomsday-machine or Visas' ties to Nihilus - they're all important to the plot. In fact, among the three mentioned here, Atton's is probably the least important, since Revan is not in the game, whereas you must confront both Nihilus and Malachor V itself... Nah, I'm just messing with you - Atton is as significant, but not more so, I think. LOL you enjoy messing with my head way too much there, Jediphile. i just may return the favour one day... [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]She's reduced to an info-dispenser. All she's good for is getting information from, just like 3727 other forgettable NPCs inhabiting the game. As for Atris being affected by the Exile, how do you figure that - the Exile isn't even important enough to send her lowest servant after her. Scarcely an indication of importance... i figured it 'cause Brianna the info-dispencer dispenced that info with the exact same conversation about it with female Exile at the Telos academy as she does with a male Exile. Go figure. " Atris kept Exile's lightsabre and wouldn't give it back regardless of what sex Exile is. Atris lured Exile out of exile regardless of what sex Exile is. Atris was messed-up in her head about Exile's preceived fall regardless of Exile's sex. It cannot be denied female Exile is important to Atris. Another way of looking at it is this: what hurts more, the fall from grace of someone whom you respect and admire, or someone whom you had an attraction to? It is a rhetorical question asked only to shed a bit of light on why Atris cared so deeply about Exile's 'fall'. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Handmaiden: "Because when my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed. When I look upon you, I see in you an answer to a question I have searched for all my life. And that is why I tell you this now. I do not believe you to be the monster Atris made you out to be. I believe your choice was my father's choice, and it was just as difficult. I do not claim to understand you. There are times when your actions are a mystery to me - but I do not wish my actions to be a mystery to you.Malachor V is the place where I lost my mother and my father. But it was their choice to fight the Mandalorians - and to die there, if Malachor was to be their grave." All that binds Exile and Brianna in that conversation is the fact her parents fought on Malachor V and that she sees Exile carries a similar burden that her father did. That is deeply important to her, but it isn't personally relevant to Exile. She is empathizing with Exile but also learning from his experience. Not the other way around. i'm not saying she is insignificant nor am i demeaning her in anyway. Just related to the point of this particular issue of what the NPCs bring to Exile, Brianna can only offer herself, a few bits of information about Atris, and the knowledge Kae is her mother. Now that on its own isn't important, but if Kreia is Kae (mere speculation suggested in other threads) than that would be super significant. But we don't know and it doesn't seem to be in any of the cut content, therefore, we cannot count it as truth thus Brianna offers little plot wise. But do recall i said earlier basing an NPCs merrit on that alone is questionable. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Handmaiden: "My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path. If I were to follow a Jedi against Atris' wishes, then I would be betraying her. For you. This is a difficult thing for me to say, but I ask that you be silent as I tell you this.It is my desire to learn from you what you can teach me of battle. I have already learned much in our duels, but with every battle, I wish to know more of you.Your stance, your movements, I can sense shades of meaning, and an echo of something I have yet to experience.Atris said that you were the only Jedi to have survived the Mandalorian Wars. That you had stared into the heart of war, and only turned away because you were forced to.I do not believe her. I believe that you made a choice... as my father did. And that is important to me, more than you know.And you are important to me, more than you know. I will accept whatever you wish to teach me, though it breaks my oath to Atris. Not quite the same thing, I think, and not just her personal story either... She is stating she is devoted to him and that she wants to learn from him. Same points as the argument above. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Because it begs the question of what she admired. For the male Exile, she was in love with him. Fine, I get that. But what about the female Exile? We don't have a single clue what went on at the Dantooine academy. None. Maybe Exile saved Atris' life, maybe Exile found out a dirty little secret of Atris' but didn't hold it against her and they developed a friendship. Who knows? Why does it even matter? Does anyone question why Brianna out of the blue falls for Exile? No. It is just an accepted fact. Atris admires and respects Exile. That is just a fact in the game and the players have to just accept it since no alternative is presented. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]It was clearly before the Exile left for the Mandalorian Wars, which puts it at least twelve years before K2. It could be a few years earlier, but I doubt it is more, or it would be too far back in time to be credible given the Exile's apparent age IMHO. My first point was, just because Vrook said that about Exile doesn't mean everyone else felt the same about Exile as he did. My second point was, that recording could have been made when Exile was still a child or a young teen so there is no way to logically use that recording as evidence there was no reason for Atris to admire Exile. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Well, we disagree there. We saw Anakin fall because he loved Padme and couldn't bear to lose her. That Atris (cold ice-queen that she is...) should have a similar fate appeals to me Anakin fell because he became an arrogant sod. Padme had little to do with it. The Jedi find it much easier to cast blame on his fall on love than it is for them to admit that when he came under their care he was a kind child who put others before himself. 10 years thereafter he was conceited, impatient, and had dark side tendencies. He did not slaughter the Sandpeople village because he loved Padme. Nor was he reckless and disobedient because of Padme. Although i can see the appeal in having a similarity to Atris' and Anakin's love, it doesn't change the facts of the game. Exile was important to Atris regardless of Exile's sex. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Pretty strong impact in my book. For whom? Atris and Brianna. Not Exile. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]Right, but the second the Exile can hear Bao-Dur's thoughts but Kreia can't, you'll begin wondering if there is a deeper connection, if the Exile is female. I think that obscures how the connection really comes from Bao-Dur being involved directly in the one defining moment of the Exile's life that altered him/her completely. Sure, other NPCs may highlight specific aspects, but Bao-Dur's presence is a reminder of the very focal point of where all the Exile's trials led both to and from. That isn't necessarily true. i had no clue Bao-Dur was supposed to have been a romantic interest until i read it in a thread. i didn't wonder at all if there was a difference between them when i first played just by virtue of Exile being female. And i still don't get at all how with Bao-Dur if there is attraction it obscures their being connected through Malachor V, yet it is said to add to Visas' and Atris' ties to the Exile. i can't understand why. This seem illogical and biased to me. The fact that Bao-Dur's connection to Exile comes from them both being in a war seems to be the only basis for that statement. She was a general. Deal with it. And even if he does have a thing for her, or her for him, or them for eachother, how does that attraction take away from their having shared a traumatic and life altering experience? In situations like those, feelings tend to arise. When Exile listens in on the crew's thoughts, it was a very powerful image in the last shot of Bao-Dur whispering "Malachor V". That drove home the importance of Malachor V and his and Exile's connection. Attraction had nothing to do with it. Besides, we don't know if he and/or Exile were to have felt that way before reuniting or if it was supposed to occur during the journey. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:52 AM]It is to me. i honestly do get the fact you don't like Mical. Really, i do. But whether someone in particular finds him exciting or boring doesn't have much to do with the issues we are discussing. What would the reaction be if i said (not that i am, i just mean for the sake of making a point) Brianna was an immature and childish exhibitionist. Pitchforks and molotov c0cktails, i'm sure. And it would be entirely besides the point of what we are discussing. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]As Xard has already pointed out, there were plenty of other jedi around - the order did not suddenly crumble because there were no jedi left to teach others. Revan and Malak were fairly young jedi, and so were most of those who followed them to war, which doesn't suggest they were teachers. Sure, some undoubtedly were, but more likely the majority were students who left their masters. You need look no further than Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar to see masters who lost or missed students. So it seems unlikely nobody was there to teach Mical. Dealt with this in my response to Xard above. But to refresh, no, there weren't. And one can only base the facts on what goes on in the game. In the game, there was no one to teach him. Stating logical facts that would point to this not being so is interesting for discussing, but those are not the in-game facts and they cannot be used to subvert in-game goings on. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]No basis for that assumption (beyond presumptions based on the male Exile's story) and no impact on the story whatsoever. In the replay i did to prove Mical didn't have anyone to teach him, he also states he is working for the Republic. To prove this is the following quote "I am on a diplomatic mission. I am one of several tasked with attempting to contact any remaining Jedi and convince them to return to the Republic." The issue up for debate was the complexity of the character, not the relevance it held to the overarcing plot. It is significant that he is working for the Republic with regards to character complexity. It has significance to the bigger plot too BTW. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]You're completely overlooking the Handmaiden's father, who she in no small way sees in the Exile, as evidenced by the quotes above. That's where her story with the Exile comes from, along with his significance on Malachor V, where her mother died. Her mother dying on Malachor V is indeed significant if she died directly because of the use of the MSG. If not, then it doesn't matter since Exile would not have been responsible for her actions on the field unless s/he was her commmander. The fact all that happened on Malachor V in and of itself is relevant and does tie Brianna's parents into that event. But the question was what the NPCs directly added to Exile's experiences. With Brianna, it is about how Exile affected her. Not saying that isn't valid for its own sake, just saying it doesn't fit in with the previous discussion criteria. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions. Riiiiiight. And Atris, a Jedi Master loving a Jedi makes so much more sense. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]I might equally well ask you why it is fine for obscurity in Atton's case, but not for Visas. i never said Visas' ambiguity isn't fine. i never said Visas having feelings for male Exile only is somehow bad. All i said is i personally find it more compelling for Visas to be that devoted to Exile in all of Exile's incarnations rather than to have her love male Exile. i found it more intence for her to be drawn to the commonality between hers and Exile's pain than for her to be attracted to him since i felt her being so engrossed in her devastating past and not seeing a way out (for she does expect them all to die when confronting Nihilus) was lessened by the attraction. i also didn't say that Atton's obscurity added to the romance. i asked why Visas' should but Atton's shouldn't. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Besides, I do see an important distinction in those characters themselves. Atton is a fairly simple guy - the uncomplicated soundrel. "The fool" as Kreia would say. He hides a bit secret, but once you get that, Atton is pretty simple to figure out. Kreia also controls him pretty easily as a consequence by simply playing on his fears. He does not have the depth to see beyond that himself and tell her what to go do with herself. Ok. This is a big issue of contention for me. Atton was absolutely in no way simple. He was not a stereotypical scoundrel in either the evil archetype nor the good archetype. The fact he is refered to as "the fool" has historical context and meaning. The fool is actually not an idiot, the fool is clever and manipulative and cannot be held down by others. The fact Atton has a secret isn't the big deal, it is what Atton did, how he did it, and how he followed his own path that are the big deal. That he took a risk by telling Exile is a big deal. His motivations and the decisions he reaches are far from simple. He isn't simply swayed by others, nor is he independant of being affected by others which makes for a complex psyche. Atton is far from easy to figure out. Kreia does hold him captive in a sense, but does she really? She later tells him he let himself be held, yet it cannot be denied she still can exert some power over him. No one knows to what extent he let Kreia feel she has power over him nor if he was playing along. Atton is constantly being torn in many different directions by his feelings and insticnts, which are often in conflict. It is Kreia who planted the idea of Atton being a fool and an imbecile. And it was Kreia who suggested the possibility of Visas being untrustworthy. i wonder why she did that, and why she did that spefically to those 2. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Visas, on the other hand, is complex by her very nature. The veil covers more than just her eyes. It is an indication of all the things that lie hidden within her. And she's difficult to figure out. She is often said to be totally submissive to the Exile (particularly the male Exile), yet she has no trouble refusing to wear the thong or admonish the Exile for taking risks or generally refuse that he/she confront Nihilus. You expect complexity, mystery, even potential betrayal in her. Another layer doesn't matter, because she is already pretty ambigious to begin with, unlike Atton. Visas is complex. Her history alone makes that unaviodable. The mere fact she has gone through that and lived shows she is capable of exerting incredible psychological endurance. Visas is an awesome character. i do wonder though if she really is that difficult to figure out. Nihilus sent her to fetch Exile. So she is doing that. She is willing to sacrifice her life for Exile (regarless of sex and/or alignment) because Nihilus wants Exile so if Exile dies, Visas can't fulfill her mandate. She doesn't see life as worth living, nor protecting, so it makes perfect sense for her to refuse to indulge anyone else's demands that did not assist with fulfilling her assignment such as putting on the Vogga dancer outfit. She did protest to Exile confronting Nihilus, but it happens anyway. It isn't until later, in a converstation with her that requires influence, that she states she beieves there may be something worth living for. That gets echoed with male Exile before they go to the Ravager. It then gets cemented on the Ravager when she confronts her path and decides to live either for revenge or for her own sake. Visas grew as a person and changed, but that progression wasn't too hard to follow. Atton's loyalty was always in doubt. Especially after he admits he is a deserter and he tells Exile he isn't certain why he is trying to help. Atton's loyalty is tenuous at best. There seemed to be no doubt about Visas' loyalty to Exile. It was Kriea who suggested there was. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Good - you're learning... Hey! *grumble* making it seem i don't like Visas *grumble some more* [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]I'd probably agree with you if it were not for the fact that I just don't buy Sion's alleged love for the female Exile. There is no basis for it. It's just thrown in there as a gimmick in the 11th hour IMHO, and you have to accept it as such, which I don't. And therefore I think it hurts the female Exile's story in K2. Buy it or don't, you're right about it being just thrown in there. Or poorly cut out. But i cannot see how it hurts female Exile's story. Just because Sion feels for her (ie obsession from afar type of deal perhaps?) doesn't mean she cares one whit for him. i can't see how a villian finding the main character beautiful detracts from that character. There is alot of potential in Sion, so i assume if other works were to be done about KotOR II, they would do it properly. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]As I've said, I'm not buying the Atton-female Exile relationship, and even if I did, I would definitely see that as weaker than those of the male Exile. Oh, get off it! How is Atton's relationship weaker than Brianna's, Atris', or Visas'? It isn't. So there. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]Be that as it may, both Atris and Brianna herself both did see it as betrayal against Atris. Yes, even so, that doesn't make it more significant to Exile. Exile is the one who noticed how when Kreia repeated Brianna's vow to Atris she wouldn't be breaking her vow by becoming a Jedi. That she decided to become a Jedi is important. No question about that. The issue was how her becoming a Jedi and feeling as if she was breaking her vow impacted Exile. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]No, Brianna has direct ties back to Malachor V through her parents, and that is tied directly to the Exile. Mical doesn't. He may have known the female Exile, but apparently didn't care enough to follow her. And Brianna is more than just a subplot, due to the similarities she sees between her father and the male Exile. She never names her mother herself, but interestingly Kreia does, and to the male Exile. Brianna presence makes Kreia tell you more about Arren Kae than Mical ever does. Brianna's parents have a direct tie to Malachor V. She had little to do with it other than the personal impact of her mother being presumed dead and her father being broken. Yusanis had nothing to do with Exile personally. Kae was one of Revan's masters, not Exile's. Tell me what good would a youth have been on the field of battle at Malachor V? There is no way Mical could have followed her. He would have had to have been either lacking in the common sense department, suicidal, or obsessed beyond the bounds of rational thought. Brianna had no clue Kae taught Revan, Mical does. Brianna tells Exile she knows her mother's name so where lies the significance in Kreia revealing it first? The only explanation i see is to give Exile more power over Brianna, and manipulation is one of the things Kreia is trying to teach Exile. Mical is the one who lists Revan's former masters and that whole memory block he has comes up for Revan's master after Kae. And other than Kae having been one of Revan's masters, Kae is completely irrelevant to Exile (unless Exile is responsible for her death). Funny how earlier you state that Atton is irrelevant because he only brings insight about Revan, yet Brianna's mother is important eventhough she was only one of Revan's masters. Why is there such a bias between them? [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]No. Kreia admits herself that she can do this. And though she claims not to control the Exile, she also admit that he/she wouldn't be able to tell the difference, if she did, so I don't think that is entirely correct. i'll re-emphasize the important phrase of my last statement: gets depicted. It is only with Mical does the player get to see how Kreia messes with people's minds, is all i was saying. [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM][the end - honestly! ] " Me too!

No, there weren't. And since people seem so fond of quoting the game directly, i replayed the Mical conversing with Exile bit from an old save and thus i quote unto you: Disciple: "And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it. They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance." He was too young to have gone to war since he wasn't even at the cut off age for becoming a padawan yet, and when he came of age, no one was left to teach him. No, that isn't what i was saying at all. In comparing Brianna's tie to Exile and Mical's tie to Exile, past history is important. If it weren't, than Atris' significance can also get dismissed. If there are going to be arguments made that past history counts, than it has to count across the board. It can't just count for whomever it is convenient to have it count for to make a point. First, Exile (and most players i assume, me being one of them) has no clue what the significance in the Echani cultre is of sparring in the near buff. Brianna repeatedly tells Exile it is just sparring unencumbered and such. So to say that because Atton, in a cut scene that Exile isn't even aware of happening, tells Brianna he knows what she is up to does not make their sparring in their underclothes significant to Exile. He initially at least thinks it is weird but he goes along with it because he isn't given a choice. If he has even half a brain he would be able to figure out that her in that outfit versus a workout outfit is her dropping a rather obvious hint, but he will not know the significance of what that means in Echani culture. Second, Brianna being attracted to Exile and having the guts to spar with him in her unmentionables does not make her a more complex character than Mical. She has courage and self-confidence when it comes to her body, certainly. But that is rather simple to understand, isn't it? i never said Brianna is useless, nor any other insulting thing about her, nor do i intend to. Mical and Brianna both have issues, and they both have a moral dilema they have to face about becoming a Jedi. Brianna has her parentage to deal with and Atris. Mical has his duty to the Republic, his connection to the Jedi and his ultimately being rejected for padawan training, his personal mission of perserving Jedi knowledge, his personal connection to Exile, and such. Brianna herself said when she spoke of wanting to become a Jedi that she feels it is for the greater good for her to do so and she would anyway regardless of how it affects Atris. Mical has a similar decission to make with regards to if he can become a Jedi since he sees major flaws in their teachings and he was denied his opportunity to earlier on and he has moved onto other things. Brianna has followed Atris for a long time and accepted her position there. Mical did soul seraching to see what it is he wanted and to figure himself out. Which one is more complex? i say Mical. You say Brianna. What i mean is other than the romantic stuff and the dancing for Voga if Exile is DS female, all the quests, side quest, how they turn out, and the dialogue options are the same. Exile is Exile regardless of her/his sex. The only place wherein which Exile incarnation matters is with Exile's alignment LS/DS. That is when the quest outcomes, the end game, all that is different ie: Talia or Vaklu isn't affected by Exile's sex. Using that argument then Mical is more deep than Brianna because he is surpressing his feelings for Exile whereas Brianna does not to the same extent as shown with her sparring in a thong. Yes, of course it should be done with better writing and exposure. So what is the problem with a cannonical female Exile? No one is saying there has to be an equal number of strong male and female leads in the SW universe. All i'm saying is there should be more strong female leads. Revan was made cannonical male (grr... <_< ), so hey! they should make Exile cannonical female. What is the big problem? The character is already there, the story has already been told through the game, all that needs to be done is have Darth George put his seal of approval on it and there you go. What we're debating here is, based on the romantic relationships Exile has, if Exile is better served as a male or a female. You yourself, Xard, said earlier to make something cannonical is for continuity's sake. Both male and female Exile are equally valid to maintain that continuity. The reason i maintain Exile should be cannonically female is because of SW's general lack of strong female leads. To support that point though it seems she has to be defended by proving her storyline is just as deep and significant as male Exile's. So that is what i am doing. Very true. i didn't know about Leia saving Luke until i read it here. And it is good that non-lead female characters are doing heroic deeds. But the point is, they aren't the leads.

what great fun! i'm glad you stepped up to the plate Jediphile. Now to counter: [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Revan being male by canon is no argument for the Exile being female. This is not a case of affirmative action in popular entertainment, nor should it be. Let me ask you this, if Revan had been canonically female, would you cast your vote for a male Exile simply on a basis of equality between the sexes? And just so you know, I'll doubt your answer if you answer that with a "yes" Hmm. How nice it is to be able to make such assumptions , but i'll humour you. If Revan were female i wouldn't care at all what sex Exile is. i felt Exile was a very weak character in the execution in the game, not that in a medium such as a book say, would Exile necesarily be the same way. But that is just me. That having been said though, why should it not be about affirmative action being taken in the LA empire? If the issue can be about pleasing hetero male SW fans since they are the assumed majority fan base, than why can it not be about broadening the scope? i find the argument of trying to somewhat equalize the playing field being unacceptable is quite backwards when the opposite side of the debate focuses on which romance options are best and if a female can be as human as a male. i said before basing which Exile is best on the romances is somewhat lacking as comparisson basis. But that is the only difference between the two since they are the same person. So i used that as a differentiating means. Now should we get into the debate of it would be good to have more strong female leads in SW? Bring it on! BTW, if SW was the other way around with mostly female lead characters, than i would want there to be more lead males. It isn't so much a question of the numbers being the same, one strong male lead per strong female lead, rather it is more of a question of the work as a whole and how it impacts on its audience and how the setting of SW actually plays out in SW. Meaning, there is supposed to be equality of the sexes. Let's see it then and not continue with the same male dominated streak SW is on. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I disagree completely. Leia was far more self-confident than Luke, who constantly doubted his abilities, and Han, who constantly wrestled with his morality, in the original trilogy. Leia was utterly firm in her convictions, however, and only became weak when it came to her feelings for Han, and that was only because she felt it would reflect poorly on her as a leader of the rebellion. SW lacking in strong female leads a fact? I think not... She so took a back seat to the males once they were off of the Death Star. In fact, once they got into the garbage shute, the dynamics changed and she was not in the lead at all. And you make an excellent point when you say she was far more self-confident than Luke, yet Luke still managed to jump into an x-wing without ever having any experience in that type of vehicle and be the one who destroyed the Death Star. Even with Luke lacking that self-confidence, which one of the 2 became one of the strongest Jedi ever? Which one confronted their father while the other wanted to flee? Sure, there are females in prominent positions in SW, and theoretically there is supposed to be equality among the sexes. In what i've been exposed to in SW, i haven't seen it. And the notion there are enough strong female leads in SW based on the fact there is Leia is lacking to say the least. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Again, that's affirmative action policy, which should have no place in a consistent narrative. Um, why not? Should not the whole scope of the work be considered when making these decisions? Are you saying there is consistency in a male character but not in a female one? i guess that would be right if that is being judged on the basis of strong and significant leads in SW are male therefore, to be consistent of course, Exile and Revan should be male. That is consistent indeed. <_< [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I must confess that some of your presumptions irk me the wrong way... A fresh storyline? How? I have played the female Exile, and I found the story to be not nearly as deep as the male story was. You lose the Handmaiden, who has a complex story of betrayal and background, and instead you get, well, the Disciple... i meant a fresh story line in the sense of telling a story with a female lead. i was not comparing male to female Exile since the 2 are the same. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I don't hate him as much as some people do, but he is rather boring and only tells you stuff that you can really learn from Kreia as well (though you'll probably doubt her word). i have to take exception to that statement. Him finding out about the echoes and all that is as much about his character as the plot. And yes, Kreia and the council do reveal in a convoluted way that there is the echo and all that. True. But Disciple's dialogue with Kreia revealed alot more to the player in a way that it was easier to understand than the cryptic and disjointed bits Kreia and the council explained. When Kreia asked him what does he see and he answers "the death of all life" that put things into context for the player. And using the argument of measuring an NPCs worth by what the NPCs brought to the Exile insofar as plot revelations go, the only ones who did not add to the plot with the bigger picture revalations were Mira, Hanhaar, and Mandalore. So are they then to be considered extraneous? [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]But fine, let's examine some of the changes: Atton: Secretly in love with female Exile. However, he can neither admit nor pursue his love, and thus the whole thing remains on the platonic level. The female Exile liking Atton is in for long, lonely nights in the cargo hold... He swears eternal (and blind) loyalty to her, which is just as unflattering in a male as in a female and does not make for much romance IMHO. LOL Ok. How about this though; in the game it is never actually stated by Exile if s/he feels anything for any of the NPCs. And judging by what i have read of the actual cut content dialogue, it seems all the love based denouements on Malachor V have nothing to do with what Exile feels and everything to do with what the NPCs precieve based on the influence ratings. So the point of Exile not being able to interact with Atton isn't something limited to Atton. Exile can't do that with anybody. Not even with handmaiden since that is sparring and not wrastling Atton falling for female exile is quite romantic actually. He had a similar experience with the Jedi who saved him, but eventhough he loved her, he didn't fall in love with her. So that he fell for Exile is significant. By holding back revealing his emotions he is putting her well being ahead of his own. He knows he has that darkness inside him and he wants to shelter her from it. How is that not romantic? And every incarnation of Exile with every other potential love interest NPC is in for long and lonely nights in the cargo hold No one gets any action in that respect. If one inisists on counting Handmaiden strippin' down to a thong for sparring as gettin' some, well then fine. There is no equivalent to that with the guys with female Exile. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]For the male Exile, Atton is just another crewmember, and his primary function in the story becomes the burden of his secret and how the Exile reacts to it. I find that without all the emotional entanglements, that works better plotwise, because your reaction is based solely on whether you can find any empathy for him in spite of his crimes with no romantic notions interfering. i would argue the primary plot related function of Atton is for the revelation of what Revan did during and after the Mandalorian wars. That then bares great significance at the end when Exile has to decide if s/he can follow Revan with knowing what Revan did, what Revan is capable of doing, and how Revan used Exile to make that power spot on Malachor V and was completely willing to let Exile die in the process. No other romanceable (yes, i made that word up) character brought that much impact to the story line. And here is where we disagree with Atton as a potential romance option; i say with the darkness of his past and the monster lurking within, that female Exile can see worth in him despite that and love him, that is powerful. i cannot concur that attraction between Exile and Atton takes away from that particular plot line. It complicates, adds turmoil, and makes it messy, but messy is good. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Handmaiden: A complete non-entity in the female Exile story, and she is completely abandoned once you leave Telos. Nothing of her background, her fight to be accepted, or even what became of her when Atris killed the handmaiden sisters. She just hangs around until you Telos, and then she doesn't exist anymore. Yuck! For the male Exile she has profound impact on the story. Her love for him (such as it is), her betrayal of Atris when she becomes a jedi, and particularly her parentage are all siginificant points that underscore the Exile's own trials. She is complex too, because she sees her lost father in the Exile, so is her love for the Exile really a daughter's love for her father that she is somehow trying to project? And that's not even taking the whole matter of her mother into consideration, which is a big can of worms by itself. Very compelling and important in the overall story with relation to the other significant females, Kreia and Atris. She is not a non-entity for the female Exile, especially if you count Disciple as more significant if he doesn't join the party . She reveals almost the same amount of plot relevant information to a female Exile at the sewer academy as she does a male Exile. The important thing Handmaiden brings to the plot is the information about Atris' holocrons and that Atris is affected by Exile. The rest of Handmaiden's story is about her personal history. She does mention Bao-Dur being important to Atris' plans and some other minor things, but that is about it since Atris tells Exile everything else anyway. So is the comparison then who's back story is better, Handmaiden's or Disciple's? Phaw. That is a matter of opinion. And before you get out your pitchfork and chase me to a cliff ledge for saying that, when i compared their histories and significance in earlier posts, i was speaking of how their personal histories had an impact on the Exile through Exile's past and through how they affect the plot. i maintain Handmaiden's personal history, while interesting, does not add to the whole echoes and the death of all things plot. Her significance lies only in how she affects Atris. That is why Handmaiden does not go along with female Exile; Atris didn't order her to. So all of that is completely dependant on Atris' feelings for Exile. That is why i rated the difference between Handmaiden and Disciple the way i did. i am curious to know where you find Handmaiden to have a profound effect on male Exile. i would argue at best, it goes the other way around. And didn't Kreia say Handmaiden wasn't really betraying her vows to Atris since the vow was not to not become a Jedi rather that she will not follow Jedi teachings? That isn't just a technicality as was seen by it being a main theme of the game. i would also like to know how Handmaiden's parentage underscores Exile's trials. Are you refering to the Jedi code of not allowing romantic attachments being a parallel? [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Atris: For the female Exile, Atris is said to have admired her. I don't find that to be very compelling, when we know that Vandar and Vrook did not think so highly of the Exile's abilities, and we're not told anything beyond that. That's disappointing to me. Lots of jedi joined Revan and Malak, and Atris probably "respected" more than just the Exile. But we don't get to know this - it's just thrown in there, and we have to accept it as true. Not very good storytelling IMHO. For the male Exile it's a whole different matter, though, because Atris secretly had feelings for the Exile. And though she had to dismiss him for his actions, she could not reconcile that with her feelings, which then turned to anger and hatred, and probably eroded her to such a degree that she began her long road to the dark side here. It is bitter irony that Atris falls to just the same feelings that she condemns otehrs for having. It does make for good storytelling IMHO, though, and when she sends Brianna to spy on the Exile (there are sound files from a deleted cut scene in the game directories), she begins the very betrayal that she eventually falls victim to herself. I still remember fondly how Kreia says, "Betrayal!", and it echoes all the way back to Atris on Telos, when the Exile turns Brianna into a jedi. For a female exile this chilling moment is lost. Atris told handmaiden after the first visit to the ice academy that she looked-up to Exile as a hero, and to see Exile 'fall' affected her deeply. What does Vandar and Vrook saying Exile is a mediocre Jedi have to do with how Atris felt about Exile? We have no clue at what point their conversation took place. And you are absolutely right we have no clue what Exile did before going to join the Mandalorian Wars nor how that impacted Atris. It is obvious something happened since Atris admired Exile, but what that is... (and they say Exile doesn't have amnesia So chalk it up to Exile having a very bad memory instead). And of course it isn't good story telling, that is why so many threads about that come up. i concur the romantic aspect of Atris and male Exile does have possibility. However attributing Atris' fall to the romantic aspect is inaccurate. i find it more compelling she falls without the need for there to be sexual attraction involved. A difference of opinion, but the fact is, it has as much significance to Atris regarless of Exile's sex since she falls anyway, even without Handmaiden becoming a Jedi. As far as the chilling moment of the betrayal is concerned, without Disciple there is no sense of relief and coming home he brought. So which is better and has more impact? The only way to measure that is in the context of how it personally effects Exile. Since they did a fairly bad job of having Exile connect with anything having to do with her/his past, it lessens the in game impact, true. But honestly, the impact of Handmaiden becoming a Jedi wasn't that powerful either. The betrayal echo reaching Atris is about as impactful as it got. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Bao-Dur: For both male and female Exile, the relationship is the "old war buddy"-thing. Is that more believable with a male Exile? Perhaps... But it shouldn't be in Star Wars, where female jedi generals are probably just as numerous and capable as males. However, with a female Exile, the sex thing also enters the picture and obscures the "war buddy" relationship a bit by suggesting feelings that are just not present in the game. Therefore I prefer the male Exile, where there is no sex thing to obscure the content of the relationship. Why does attraction obscure the war-buddy thing? But the attraction whether it is one way or goes both ways is more of a side point anyway since Bao-Dur himself states Exile barely noticed him during the time he served under Exile. When the mass shadow generator was activated, that was the longest s/he ever looked at him. So the relevance of the attraction is in how it affected Bao-Dur if he felt for Exile during the wars, and then how things go on as of their being reunited. Keeping a score was just a means to the end of refuting the statements that male Exile had more and better romances that female Exile. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Disciple: Well, he's the only real romance option for the female Exile, which is utterly disappointing, especially given how boring I think he is. His "good manners" do not make for a very interesting character in my book. Sure, he knows a lot and you can learn much from him, but you can learn most of it from Kreia as well (if you believe her), and his relationship with the female Exile is not nearly as interesting as that of Visas or Handmaiden IMHO. I also think it weakens him as a character that he left the order when the Exile joined Revan, and yet did not follow her to war in spite of his feelings for her. So he, what, just decided to sit the whole thing out and see what happens? Some hero... Mical is hardly in the male Exile's game, but I actually thought he had more character here. He's working for Carth (or Cede) exploring the jedi. That means he at least has a mission instead of just hanging around for the Exile to give him something to do. It also makes more sense that he did not follow the male Exile during Mandalorian Wars, I think, because there were no emotional ties, and he simply just lost his belief in the jedi ways and left. Yes, it is utterly disappointing he is the only one female Exile gets a love confession from in the as-released game. Whether he is interesting or not isn't really relevant to the discusion though. i found him a bit creepy, to be honest, but that doesn't change his relevance to the story. But i am surprised you made that comment about him not following the Exile as being not heroic. First, he was too young to go off to war. He said so himself. He wasn't even at the cut off age for being accepted as a padawan. Second, what would have made him follow Exile more of a hero? That would have made him a follower (and following a woman at that... ). And Mical left not only because of self-doubt, but because there was no one left to teach him. Even when he goes with Exile, he probably is still working for the Republic, just as Handmaiden is still working for Atris. He also is studying and doing research while he is with Exile. He says so himself. IIRC he also has medical training and acts as a med lab. Handmaiden, she practices her martial art. And i think the whole point of Mical was that he had loved female Exile since he was a youth. He did not feel that way about male Exile. So of course he wouldn't be affected by male Exile as he was by Female Exile. Whereas with Handmaiden, she is allured by the whole concept of Jedi and becoming one since it is someting for which she has a natural inclination. She has no history with Exile. She also adds nothing to Exile's background. i cannot see how Handmaiden's love of Exile is deeper nor more significant than Disciple's. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Visas: She serves somewhat the same function for an Exile of either gender, though there is also emotions for the male Exile. Does she love the male Exile because she loves him or because of the danger he presents to Nihilus? In the female Exile's case, the latter is clearly the case, but for the male Exile there can be doubt. Still, I find that ambiguity to add to the story rather than obscuring it. It makes Visas more complex and Visas is supposed to be very mysterious to the point where you're not quite certain whether she is still loyal to the Exile. It works doubly so for the male Exile IMHO, because you're wondering about her emotions as well as her loyalty. And she and the male Exile gets to "see" each other through the force instead of some dumb speech by Disciple... Wow. Visas' ambiguity adds to the story, but Atton's takes away from it. i find that to be quite a stretch. This is another case where i found Visas' interaction with Exile is best left without the sexual attraction. To me, it took away from the significance of Visas choosing Exile over Nihilus. She is dealing with her planet having been destroyed, with being the only survivor, of being treated by the man who destroyed her homeworld as a slave, and all that horrendous and heartbreaking stuff. Adding her loving Exile into it takes away from the significance of her decision between embracing the LS or DS on the Ravager, it minimizes her complex history and pain by making her feelings for him more important and more of a focus than the other issues she is suffering dealing with. That moment between her and Exile when they look at eachother through the Force was, indeed, magnificent. And Disciple's speech truly paled in comparisson. No disagreement on that front here. However, i equate Atton to Visas moreso than Disciple. And in that light it is difficult to compare since all of Atton's love resolutions were cut. There was much more in-game romantic interacting and indicating between Atton and Exile though, so it balances out somewhat. However, keeping the actual in-game dialogues and interactions in mind, Visas is exactly the same with both Exiles until that one point in the game, and then on the Ravager when she can sacrifice herself for Exile. In the dialogue options with female Exile though, it seems Visas should have been able to sacrifice herself for her too, but i don't know if that was removed as an option from the game, or if i didn't have her in the right clothes and with the right weapon. Probably the former. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]Sion: Sion just hates the male Exile, who replaced him as Kreia's apprentice, but he seems to have feelings for the female Exile. Those are, however, of no significance in the game and only relevant for a few comments, which I frankly find more unsettling than anything else. For the male Exile I flee Sion on Korriban because I can't defeat him, but my female Exile fled because the thought of her and Sion was just scary - he's welcome to sleep with vibroblades, but I don't want to be there with him!!! " :D That was really funny, and i can see what you're saying. What makes Sion compelling is that there is more to him despite what has been done to him. And even more so because he has that twisted love-hate, need based but should be away from relationship with Kreia. That he can actually feel love for Exile eventhough he hates her importance to Kreia is fascinating. He is very similar to Atton in those ways except his ugliness is apparent on the outside too, and he doesn't have the opportunity to be close to Exile, but Atton does. That makes the cut content of their fight on Malachor V all the more moving beyond Atton sacrificing himself for Exile is Atton is, in essence, facing himself, what he could have been. Sion faces what he could have been in Atton as well. i'd call that pretty deep. Without the cut content though, it certainly does fragment the plot and obscures the importance of the characters' significance. [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]I must confess that I don't understand how you keep score here. You admit that the female Exile and Bao-Dur romance was cut, yet you still award the female Exile points for it, but give none to the male Exile for his relationship with the Handmaiden. Is it just me or does that look more like you stage your points than giving them on the basis of a fair analysis? And as I have said before, the female Exile/Disciple relationship is hurt by the fact that he did not follow her to war, even though he's supposed to love her oh-so-much and follow her to whatever end... As i stated before, the scoring system was just to add some tangible basis to proceed in the discussion as opposed to saying "Handmaiden's romance is better" followed by "No, Disciple's romance is better". i just intended to bring cohesion and a simplification of how to compare the two. I even stated it is a silly method. Sheesh. The basis of the previous posts were to debate whether the male or female romances were 'better' thus attempting to decide which Exile has more merrit as becoming cannonical. But the scoring system was to compare the relationship counter parts to eachother. It wasn't a relationship count. And in that light, how it was scored makes sense. i even put 2 different tallies, one excluding Bao-Dur. The potential relationship count was something different. That came a little further down. i even said if you don't count Bao-Dur than the amounts of romance relationships that can be formed are equal. With Bao-Dur counted, female Exile has more. It was cut content so i have no qualms of not including it in the count. Does that explain it a bit better? [Jediphile,May 8 2006, 06:07 PM]For those keeping score: Female Exile:

Just played a bit of KotOR on the pc for the first time, and i really was annoyed by the method of controling character movement. Playing it on the Xbox was relaxing, using a keyboard and not having the 'click on the screen to make the character go where you want' as the BGs and NWN did, just really is terrible. Thus i suggest: make the pc version controller friendly/compatible, at least for movement if not for the other controls put the 'click to where the characters should go' method of movement back in improve the ease of use for the interface screens, they sub-menued too much improve the combat action interface. Having to click on the little boxes with the mouse to scroll for which attack to use every time is very frustrating. have the movie resolution match the rest of the game's resolution. Such nice movies were so blurry because the monitor's resolution is different than the movies' resolutions. i'm not a computer competent so i'm stating this from the point of view of a person who can't just tweak things and resolve these issues.

As far as the voices go, didn't KotOR have voices for Revan with their aknowledgement monologues ie: mine set & ready ? They could just use the same voice actors. The difficulty i see with putting a voice to them though is how hearing Revan would be strange for the player. Revan's tone, whether s/he was being sarcastic or not, all that stuff was up to the player. With it being voiced, it would be strange. Not that it shouldn't be done, just they would have to do a good job. And yeah, other than a few technical issues, it really wouldn't be that difficult to bring 'em back.

[Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]I didn't say that just because Revan is male the Exile should be male as well but just because Revan is male then Exile should be female sounds as stupid. You know, i wonder if it is stupid. KotORs are games with the players able to choose between male and female. That they had to go and make Revan cannonical male vexes me, but alas, nothing is going to change that now. However, Exile's cannonical sex is still up in the air. Now considering how Revan is male, i don't see why making Exile female is a bad thing. It adds variety, a different perspective, eventhough technically, as i said earlier, male and female Exile (and Revan) are the same person. The only difference between them, because in these games romantic relationships have to be hetero, is who they pursue these relationships with. Oh, and female Exile has the option of (or is forced if DS and wants to get at the horde) to wear that ridiculous dancer outfit and put on a show for Vogga. Hardly an accomplishment worthy of acclaim, but thank Obsidian for that little jem. So given they are the same person with mostly the same dialogue options and the same outcomes with the quests, technically, in a vacuum, the sex doesn't matter. Where it starts to matter is once it is looked at as a whole. The fact is, SW is sadly lacking in the female lead department. Exile as a female does not detract from the story as is seen in the game and it also gives the readers a fresh storyline narrative. So i would argue since they made Revan cannonical male ( <_< ) they should make Exile cannonical female. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]They are polar opposties as the story would have as understand. NOT GENDER Opposites. Yeah, so why should that prevent them from being opposite sexes? Or is the argument here that because one is "the heart of the Force" and the other is "the death of the Force" they should both be male? i can't see how that has particular significance. i don't see how their roles in the story arc being that of opposites would have much of an effect on the decision of which sex either should be. Unless, of course, the whole point of SW being about mythical concepts and characters is to be carried through and one uses that bases of the yin-yang, light-dark, etc, as female and male energies being required to create such opposites... [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]4 males, 4 females etc etc yatta yatta yatta. Who said this was a balancing act? Why do the number of males and female characters have be equal?? Last i checked this was a game NOT a debate for female rights. Actually, i was using those to emphasize the earlier point made about the games having strong female heroic roles in the form of the NPcs is a weak reason to prevent Exile from being cannonical female. Tied in with the point that some of these strong heroic females have certain issues that affect their overall character strength, what i was getting at is; they are secondary to Exile as is and they are not as strong characters as the male NPCs thus there is no need for a female lead based on that fact alone is erroneous. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]The relationship with Bao-Dur IS a close male relationship between two old war veterans. A female in that situation may be able to pull it off but its still not very believable and awkward. Hun? i am admitedly a bit stupefied at how such a conclusion can be drawn. The suggestion here is that males and females experience life and humanity in fundamentally different ways. When one is in danger and under the constant strain of being a soldier in a war sharing harrowing and horrific experiences, does one's sex really matter in any significant way? Are you suggesting males and females cannot bond deeply under those circumstances, or that the experience of being a Jedi is somehow unique to males? Or perhaps a female being a part of that bonding is trivial and should thus be discounted? i question the merrit of such thought processes. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Like it or not but the Exile character is slightly more manly than Revan, Exile has been like loner all of his life and suddenly gets people following him blindly. i was not aware that being a loner, nor that having people follow a particular person blindly are traits found only among males. Nor that those make one more manly than a tactitian. i guess the fact that Exile's Force based abilities have alot to do with people blindly following isn't really that important. Ok, so maybe that was a little snarky, but i'm only human, or so i've been told. i think the real issue here is the perception of what are female roles (refered to as gender), and the discomfort some experience when females become leads in a so-called traditional male gender role. There is absolutely no reason why Bao-Dur and female Exile cannot have bonded as war buddy-like as a male Exile. There isn't any reason why a female Exile could not have been a loner, nor is there any reason why a female Exile could not have people following her blindly. Visas was drawn to the Exile because of Exile being a wound in the Force. Whether Exile was female or male makes no difference. i agree the Visas-Exile romance had alot of depth and the little of it that was in the game was well told. However, that does not exclude a female Exile from being as significant to the story and NPCs as a male Exile. i find Visas being so devoted to Exile without the need for sexual attraction makes a more powerful plot element regardless of Exile's sex. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Repeating what i said earlier. Revan had more things going for a female cannonical character. Think about it, The finnesse, Lacking the brashness of Malak....that and all other descriptions of Revan we have had throughout KoTOR and KoTOR II, Revan could have made a better arguement for being female. While i concur with the notion Revan has strong reasons to have been made cannonical female, it is for entirely different reasons (one of them being the significance of Revan's effect on Bastila). But Revan is cannonical male so all there is left to work with is Exile. Whether Revan had finesse or was brash comes again down to the idea of gender (the roles imposed on either sex by society) and people's comfort with the whole notion of a female being a general, being a tough Force user and warrior, having a natural leadership ability, and all that. Basing these decisions on reason rather than emtional comfort zones would point towards Exile's sex being important only insofar as how that decision affects the SW universe, the readers, and all that other non-KotOR II based stuff since in the game itself, it doesn't matter. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Atton makes for a good close friend, what with his past and all but as a love interest to exile its not all that great. That is a valid opinion. So is the opinion that Handmaiden had little of significance to offer as a love interest. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Ok, to counter atris you have sion but what about visas? Surely Visas-Exile is a better romance than Exile-Atton. The question i brought up earlier was if basing the Exile's male/female worth as a lead should be placed on the romances. Considering so much of the romance outcomes were to come to a resolution on Malachor V and were all cut, it isn't exactly a fair comparisson. However, using that as a parametre for debate, i would argue Visas actually got a chance to voice some romantic feelings whereas Atton never did. The question of which one is the better romance, Atton or Visas... that is a difficult question to answer. Certainly the depth of Visas' pain and the commonality of the emptiness both Exile and Visas shared is profound. It was touching and in a way harmonious. Atton had a different kind of pain from Exile although the feeling of being responsible for having commited devastating acts, attrocities even, was shared as well. Exile had the buffer of being able to shield her/himself of having done what was needed to be done for a bigger good, whereas Atton committed these terrible acts for his own purposes rather than for the greater good. On the one hand Atton has a very raw and very personal pain he carries, and his revealing that pain to Exile is meaningful. His loving her even through that pain is profound. Exile being able to love him eventhough he was, in essence, a monster, is also profound. Atton also was along for the ride since the beginning, whereas Visas joined later. Can one argue that Visas and Exile loving eachother is better than Atton and Exile loving eachother? i guess it would come down to personal preference. i find them equally compelling, to tell the truth, so one would have to then look to the other romances to decide. Score: female Exile 1 - male Exile 1 Bao-Dur, i heard, was supposed to be a romantic interest as well, which, had it been left in the game, would have been quite a powerful one. But it isn't one the player gets to see so we can't really judge it other than by including it as an extra possibility for female Exile for which male Exile has no counterpart since Mira steadfastly refused to become involved with Exile in a romantic way. Score: female Exile 2 - male Exile 1 The only male who came close to in game romancing female Exile is Disciple. Their past built a significant backstory between them, and Disciple's feelings for Exile were genuine and strong. Handmaiden, being Disciple's counterpart, had no history with Exile and served as a plot device to link in Atris and her jealousy of Handmaiden's and Exile's relationship to add weight to Atris' feelings. There was significance with her back story wherein she vowed not to learn the ways of the Jedi but chose to do so anyway, but i would argue she was bound to do so eventually regardless based on what Kreia said and Handmaiden's interest in the Force. Score: female Exile 3 - male Exile 1. Then came Sion if one argues Sion's words are to be interpreted in that way which one assumes so since he did not react that way with male Exile. His link to Exile, and how he came to love her are a complete mystery to the player. All we can base it on is his actions and words. He wanted to kill her to save her from the suffering she would undergo at Kreia's hands, even after telling her how he feels. Definitely not the formula for making a lasting relationship, but it did carry quite some punch. His confessing how she is a keenly felt presence in his mind was also moving. His death was touching too since he still felt concern for her eventhough he had to let go. Atris, on the other hand, had a long history with Exile. However, IIRC the only difference in how she treated male Exile was indirect. She ordered Handmaiden stow away, and then when she confronted Handmaiden, she beat her senseless for Handmaiden having developed feelings for him. Atris may have confessed in her and his last duel though, i don't remember. So i'll assume she did. Given much more is know of Atris; Score: female Exile 3 - male Exile 2. Total romantic relationship potential female Exile 4 - male Exile 3. Even discounting Bao-Dur since there is only one line of flirting in their dialogue (that i found anyway), it still makes 3 : 3 and not 2 : 3. Now i realize this is a rather silly way to compare the two, but if they must be broken down into which one is better in the relationship category, this is how i came up with doing it. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]The female exile will be nothing more than eye candy, why? because it doesn't improve the story in any manner and only results in eliminating one interesting character for a boring one and swapping 3 romantic aspects for 2. Um, that would be swapping 3 (male Exile) relationships for 4 (female Exile). Disciple's being more boring than Handmaiden is a matter of opinion, one which i do not concur with. Sure Handmaiden sparring with Exile in that ridiculous thong outfit was more than female Exile got out of Disciple, but that did not make her less boring, it just made her less humble. Disciple had a richer history and a better rounded character, and he at lest was clever enough to be the only one to piece together what no one else could about Kreia and the wound in the Force. The argument female Exile is nothing more than eye candy is, frankly, driving home the point that male Exile is nothing more than that either since they are the same person. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]The Exile character was designed as a quiet loner, someone with a huge burden on his shoulders and a sad person in general. That fits better as a male and NOT a female. I am not saying there aren't any females like that but the description and character is manly at its base. Again, the same arguments as before, males do not hold the monopoly on carrying burdens and having difficult pasts. Yadda, yadda, see above. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Forcably adding uncreative variance to the game by making a distictly masculine lead character female. i don't understand what you mean by this, though i would like to if you would care to explain. [Dhampyre,May 5 2006, 02:52 PM]Weigh the facts, we lose out alot of interestings aspects of the game just for making exile female and swapping 3 relationships for 2. Which facts are being weighed here? i found the Sion twist more interesting than the Atris twist since with Atris, it really is quite immaterial what sex Exile is. Visas has the same deal, she is just as devoted to a female Exile as a male one. We can't really know for sure the outcomes of the cut content, at least for now. I'd say, it comes down pretty much to taste, rather than fact. i would really like to know what this elusive "cool stuff" is. i just can't see it. Both have merrit, and the story is essentially the same regardless of what sex Exile is. Except what i've already mentioned relationship wise.

Sounds interesitng, especially since you're taking it in a different direction than where other people are taking theirs. When will we get to read it? Yup. But i thought in the case of Revan they would have to explain why s/he left without warning, where s/he went, and what's been going on for the last 4 years, which is the plot of III anyway, so it should be manageable. They could do that in a plot neutral enough way (stop what s/he started as suggested in II, etc) with differences in motivation based on LS/DS. They could even have the player actively choose some of Revan's decissions/actions if it was necessary, or they could take it from the point of Revan about to do something and after the fill in, take it from there. i kinda see it more as having a good and solid character the player already helped shape in KotOR, and III goes on with the tale. It is also possible III's timeline could start before II and start at the point where the first left off and catch-up to II, then merge it all and go on with the narrative from there. Seems reasonable enough, i think... But i do see how difficulties would arise. Yes. Yeah. You're absolutely right about that. There are alot of potential difficulties with II carrying in into III. There are ways to go about it where that particular bit of nastiness gets solved by taking it out of the equation entirely. For example Exile lost her/his Force connection with Kreia's death 'cause Exile never re-established that connection in the first place, or Exile decided to go back into exile and not deal with any of it leaving the surviving party members to stumble along alone without Exile's influence, and if DS, they probably don't have it together enough without Exile to get the Sith organized anyway, dito for LS with Jedi, therefore leaving no issue to deal with. But they did put themselves into a bit of a potential pickle with that. Unless they neutralize it by saying both the Sith and Jedi will reorganize redardless of what the outcome of II is. That still leaves the mess of Exile and company to sort out though. The only way to easily fix that is if they effectively eliminate Exile from the equation, and that would anger/annoy alot of people. Fantastic! And with a nice little sadistic bent to it

While i do understand that feeling of Revan no longer being mine once s/he regained some of her/his memories (i felt that way when we were informed Revan left Bastila/Carth without an explination), i felt the experiences Revan underwent during KotOR would remain a part of her/him even after regaining those memories, which would keep her/him grounded in what/who Revan is now. Perhaps i should say especially after regaining those memories because Revan grew as a person under the player's tutelage and what Revan became, how s/he changed is what Revan is now. The memories add a layer of complexity, and perhaps insanity even , but i would think Revan wouldn't become something else just because of the memories, unless s/he wanted to. Do you mean if they carry the Exile/Revan plot on into III?

First off, why does it have to come down to a Handmaiden/Disciple showdown? How does that establish whether female or male Exile is "better"? There is the rest of the cast's interactions to consider as well. Atton's relationship with Exile is quite powerful, as are Bao-Dur's, and Visas. Second, i can honestly not see how a male Exile is better than a female one. If one wants to argue using relationships as the focus, than why should Atris seemingly having loved male Exile take precedence over Atris having respected and cared for female Exile? i also cannot see how Handmaiden's impersonal tie to Exile is more significant than Disciple's personal one. He was going to be her padawan. Handmaiden was sent on the mission to accompany Exile by Atris, and she just happened to develop an interest in him. Relationship and past history wise, Disciple has Handmaiden bested. Having a cannonical female Exile specifically as a counter point to a male Revan is a good reason. Saying Exile cannot be female because Revan is male is not a good reason. There is a difference between the two. The first is stating that adding an additional layer of complexity and plot potential with them being of opposite sexes is possible. The second is simply stating males are prefered. If there is a plot reason for them both being male, then so be it, but to categorically refuse the possibility of Exile being female is a rather weak argument. Is that statement a fact or an assumption? i've never read any statistics so i really don't know if that is true. It also depends on what constitutes a fan. How does one determine that? Even if males buy more SW items per male (ie comics, movies, and books) does not necessarily mean less females make individual purchases. Is there even a way to sort a statistic like that out acurately? There are many factors to consider, ie the one who purchases an item isn't necessarily the only one to have acess to it. Are more males exposed to the SW universe than females? i would believe that is a difficult assumtion to prove. i also do not understand why one has to be of the same sex as another person in order to be able to relate to and to understand that person. Is it not mostly ideas and experiences that allow for understanding? Sure, a female cannot understand what it is physically like to be a male, nor can a male understand what it is physically like to be a female; however; that alone certainly cannot explain this supposed difficulty in being able to relate to/understand a character. i understood both the male and female renditions of both Exile and Revan. They are essentially the same person. The only difference is in who the game allows either Revan/Exile to pursue romantic relationships with. i would counter there are alot of heroic male characters in the KotOR series ie: Carth, Atton, Bao-dur, etc, and also more of them too. In KotOR there were 4 male party members to 3 females and the 2 droids are seen as male. In KotOR II, there are 2 static female party members (Kriea and Visas) with the optiion of 2 more (Mira and Handmaiden) for a total of 2-4. There are 3 static male party members (Atton, Bao-Dur, and Mandalore) with 2 variables (Hanhaar and Disciple) for a total of 3-5. And again the 3 droids are considered "male" with male voices and being refered to as "he". So if it comes down to numbers, as it seems to indicate in the above statement, than there are more male heroic character in the games than female ones which renders that argument moot. Unless the point being made is that having as many females as there already are is enough. Than there really is no way to counter that other than by saying that would be an issue to debate. i also question if the male and female cast can be considered heroic in equal proportions. One could argue that some of the female heroes (party members) are not as heroic as the males ones based on certain criteria ie: confidence and strength of personality. The females tended to have more uncertainty and confusion as a whole. In KotOR Bastila and Juhani doubt their own abilities and strengths. Whereas the males were all self-assured and trusted in their abilities regardless of their personal issues. In KotOR II, a similar pattern appears. Kreia is the only fully self-confident female party member. Disciple, Mandalore, and Hanhaar are fully confident in their abilities. However combat wise, they are pretty much equal across the board since leveling stats and Force use etc isn't at all dependant on the individual's sex. When considering these factors, it becomes less trivial to simply brush away the possibility of a cannonical female Exile due to the fact there are heroic females in the party. Again, the logic here eludes me. Why would a lead female character be there simply for "eye candy" and not for the literary worth of the character? i cannot see how Exile being a cannonical female would disappoint alot a fans. That sounds as if the argument is 1)people in general cannot see the worth of female leads 2)females should not be considered lead material 3)the only worth a female has in a story/as a character is to fulfil some sexual purpose. These seem to be illogical arguments. To counter, one could argue many fans will be upset if Exile is made into yet another cannonical male because there are not enough strong female leads in the SW universe as it stands. How so? i am not sure that is completely acurate. In the case of Revan being a female,Padme in The Phantom Menace, Leia in the trilogies and some of the novels, Kreia, there are others as well, they have strong and powerful roles. However it is acurate to say, as with Padme in the preceeding films, females do get reduced to lesser capacities and do often succumb to playing lessers to the lead males. And that is quite unfortunate. However, effort should be made to rectify that situation rather than accept it and continue along the same vein. While there are many elements which still remain lacking and/or unexplored in what i have been exposed to of the SW universe, i still believe it does look at philosophical questions and explores various aspects of the cosmos, society, human nature, etc. Even if KotOR II failed with accomplishing it's apparent objective of examining the Force, human nature, and ethics/morality, it still did attempt it. And it did make some insightful and deep explorations. ie the notion of interconnectedness, how actions carry through beyond the doer's scope, the possibility of good and evil being more complex than a simple LS/DS alignment, and many others. i would argue there was sophistication in its inception, and such attempts to add depth beyond "a neat story about a sabre weilding tough guy" should be encouraged. SW is very popular and reaches many people, thus adding strong female leads and depth of philosophy are positive additions.

That is exactly right. Rating content that isn't accessable through regular means oversteps the bounds of the ESRB. Regulatory boards such as these should stick to their mandates, else things get messy and they lose sight of what their purpose is, which opens a whole new can of worms with regards to what comes next. A shift from content rating to dictating content would not be unfathomable were these inclinations allowed to continue.

The difficulty i see with more characters isn't just with the player character having to interact with them all, but they also have to interact with eachother, as well as reacting spontaneously to things that occur throughout the game. It becomes a big mess sorting all of that out and to allow each character the time s/he needs to be done justice. And the more people there are, the less time within the game there is to devote to each character, especially if there is an influence system. And if each of them had counterparts... that makes for alot of dialogue and also alot of work to program in the outcomes of those interactions with all those variables ... i don't see the need for more planets, but that rather depends on the plot. It gets a bit tiresome having alot of planets with lots of filler. i don't mind having to go on long forrays to get places, as long as there is a point to it eventually. Although i understand the appeal of that, i think that is more of a cosmetic issue. Yeah, if they have time to make a detailed customizable appearance option, great. But i'd much rather see them fix the basics of how the interface works and getting things to run better. i was sick of the Ebon Hawk in the second one already, but since it had a plot tie-in, meh, what can ya do? If it is in the 3rd it would be a bit annoying but it would mean less for the devs to do with not having to make a new ship. i assume there are players who really like the Ebon Hawk too and want to keep it in, so that is one of those things that is alot like having only humans as NPCs because it makes writing the dialogues, putting in romances, and all that whole heck of alot easier. While it would be funny to see, it may be a bit much for them to add that much detail. But it would also be priceless to see the NPCs reactions to those remarks as well... yeah, i agree with, shall i say, more detailed romance stuff. i always found it odd that all this interaction gets built-up over the course of the game, then comes the confession and the refusal or the getting together, and that is it. Hun? Isn't that when things just get started? i found it odd how wtih LS Revans at the end of KotOR, how after defeating Malak and finally being free, all they say is "yay! Malak is dead. We're about to become space dust. Let's go." and that's it. i'm curious what makes post-getting together relationships so difficult to put into a game...

That is why i wonder if having Revan and Exile as NPCs would be worse. Then the player has no input whatsoever with their behaviour and they then can no longer be the player's anymore, they then are the devs characters. i really don't want that. It makes everything accomplished in the first 2 pointless.

i wonder about that. i think perhaps in one way it could solve alot of problems. Then they wouldn't have to be made a specific way that inevitably will tick people off. My notion of Revan and Exile, i am certain, is quite different from yours. i was not well pleased when i found out either LS Revan just picked-up and left without warning. To me, that was not something my Revans would do. Leave, certainly, but it is the without warning part that irks me. But that is what was decided on for the plot of KotOR II. i think more difficulties lie in "forcing" Exile and/or Revan to have dev-set personalities. i, as a player, have a vested interest in both KotORs casts. i want them to play a part in the next part of the story, even the characters i am less fond of. Having to get to know another main character and then all the companions that new person meets along the way can cause problems of their own. As others have pointed out before, Revan went from a main character to a behind the scenes plot device. That is similar to, say, dumping SW A New Hope's cast for new ones in The Empire Strikes Back but still leaving in Leia, Luke, Han, and Chewbacca as eluded to plot devices and cameos rather than being the main cast. As it stands, there is a good plot already laid out for III, and the people from the first 2 are the ones who are central to that plot. Too powerful is relative to 2 things; the enemies one battles and the difficulty for people to learn and be able to use the character well. It would be a nightmare for a new player, even for many veteran players, to start off with so many levels. First, just leveling your character up to whatever level would be difficult. Second, without the familiarity of what those stats/powers/skills/etc do, the whole notion becomes a big mess. But why can't the player character be Exile and/or Revan? i am absolutely certain Carth would have been much higher level than 4th upon his and Revan meeting, he would have had much better hand-to-hand combat abilities, and all that. Same goes for Jolee. How could Jolee be lower level than Revan? That is absurd. And that is a game. Who really cares what level Exile/Revan are? Some reason could easily be come-up with why they are low level ie: oh no! This planet i landed on slowly drains the Force from me. Whatever shall i do? ... All i'm saying is the game could have Revan and/or Exile be the player character(s). Doesn't mean it has to though.

Actually, my family and I (we're Oneida, of the Haudenoshonee) prefer "Oneida" first and foremost, and then "American Indian". Ok. Sorry about that. The term "American Indian" didn't actually come to mind while i was writing. i find it confusing though when used in the same context of, say, African-American or Italian-American. Then Indian-American seems to indicate a person who immigrated from India. i learned in university that First Nations was among the prefered terms, but that was a while ago. Yeah, that's all we spend our time doing you know .. think of ways to rob you.. huh? so a few European companies screwed you, how does that make Europeans in general responsible?? Um, deganawaida didn't say individual European citizens are thus scheming; however; i do find that line of thinking telling. Do you not have democracies in Europe? Are commerce rules not legislated and enforced by elected governments? i don't see how anyone could argue citizens are not responsible for their government's actions.

i can't believe i am reading some of the things posted here. Use the term Native peoples, First Nations, indigenous peoples, but as a rule,"Indians" are from India. i think that is an excellent point. It isn't as if other countries will welcome disenfranchised Canadians and Americans with open arms, especially not in such vast numbers, nor given the current global political climate. And let's face it, through the US's policy of intervention, their refusing to 'play nice' with the U.N., and with all the other rogue nation actions they have taken, i hardly think U.S. citizens will be allowed into most autonomous countries. Not that individual people should be entirely blamed for their government's actions; however; with the U.S. being a type of democracy, technically the citizens chose their representatives in government. i honestly can't see any country accepting either citizens in large quantities. Hey, thanks. That's sweet of you :D i assume you did not learn Canadian historty in school in order for you to have made such a statement. Never did any of the First Nations ever sell their land for alcohol and/or beads. Going back to the days of the Royal Proclomation, the official policy was "live and let live" because at the time, it was convenient for the British government to do so. It depended on the military strength of their Native allies. Later, once the British government felt indigenous peoples no longer served much use as military allies nor as mentors in sharing their knowledge of the wildlife and resources, then that policy changed to one of disenfranchisement. In other words, once the British used up as much of the Native Peoples resource they could, then they began persecuting Native peoples and stripping them of their rights. This is not a situation wherein there was equality and a fair negotiation for land rights. This is a complete and utter decimation of entire peoples carried out by a foreign government. Imagine, if you will, a foreign army rolls into your country, takes over, uses it's supperior military strength to kill many of your people as well as introduce foreign illnesses that kill off millions, then they say they are taking your land, displacing your family onto reservations which are in squalid and unhealthy conditions, are making your religion and culture illegal and do not allow you to speak in your own language, force their own religion on you and your people, and force your children to go to residential schools where they are abused and many die. Those are very difficult and disturbing things to even think about, yet that is both of our nations' bloody history. It is true treaties over land rights were signed; however; the British then later Canadian and American governments did not do so in good faith and violated their own treaty laws. To imply Native Peoples were nothing other than "stupid alcholoic bead loving" fools who sold their land and lives away is not only wrong, it is ignorant and offensive. Perhaps people should do some research and thinking before they make statements that are inacurate and discriminatory.

i like the training room idea. It would be cool if the cast (NPCs) could spar together and learn to better coordinate and function as a team, giving gradual team bonuses or improved skills (ie stealth) when in battle in the field with their practice group.