NWN2 only 20 hours long?

[Kaftan Barlast]

And replay value for CRPG's is a joke. Its not like NPC X is NOT going to betray you this time around or that the evil endboss will turn out to be someone completely different. And playing as a Class B instead of Class Y wont make any significant change either.

[LoneWolf16]

Ah yes I see, this was a cunning tactic by Obsidian. Cut the game down to twenty hours and everyone will say "only 20 hours for a game that could make or break their company? It *MUST* be good!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, no. If it's a crappy game, then it's a crappy game. Quality is and should be the #1 concern, not length.

[Krookie]

It better be a good 20 hours then.

[Cantousent]

Actually, I replay virtually every CRPG I play. Some of them, BG2, PS:T, IWD 1, (and probably) Oblivion, I play several times from beginning to end. I may or may not be the average gamer, but I'm the player making this post in support of his point of view.

 

Now, Moose, I actually read through up until the third iteration of the thread to which you referred. Now, I have a long history of pointing out that Sawyer can be condescending and elitist in his remarks, so it's not like I turn a deaf ear to his comments. I cannot see where he displays such tendencies in the original thread, the second thread, or even the third thread. There might be a fourth thread, but he displays considerable restraint in the face of unreasonable hostility.

 

To be perfectly honest, I believe your hostility is unreasoning. Yes, I am a single player fan. I am biased. I want them to put more into the single player experience than multi-player. Nevertheless, he didn't tell the PW crowd to shove it. He said it would be harder to create a good PW with the same numbe of areas currently in fashion in NWN 1. He goes on to say that including more areas in the future is a viable option.

 

I don't want to say "screw you" to the PW crowd, even though I have never played a game of NWN 1 in a PW. I do, however, agree with Sawyer that the first priority is single player and a good MP component, not a PW. The fact is, I was dissappointed by NWN 1. I played it twice, had a good time, and tried MP, but it just wasn't the revolution I was expecting. If the single player game is good, and I enjoy the multi-player component, I might buy into a PW. I might become one of the MP crowd. Wouldn't that be good for PW in the long run?

 

His comments, although not completely what the PW crowd wanted to hear, were actually quite good for the long haul.

[Moose]

I hardly think that going on a fan message board pre-release and informing players interested in designing persistent worlds that it might be more difficult than they expect amounts to telling them to "shove it."

More difficult? He actually said it would likely be impossible "not in our wildest dreams" to have a mod with 10+ large areas, which imho is a perfectly reasonable amount.

 

And the initial allocation of resources is simply a rational company decision that they think will most please the majority of their fans.

I honestly don't think this is for the majority of fans, but for the majority of wouldbe fans. NWN2 is looking for fresh customers, the same sort of people that bought Oblivion. Why do you think Sawyer said:

 

"NWN2 will have just as many graphical features (if not more) than Oblivion."

 

I've noticed he likes to reference to Oblivion a lot, probably because it's relevant as it just came out, fair enough. I also think it's because that's the sort of market NWN2 now wants to leech off.

 

Companies that don't do this kind of thing end up bankrupt.

 

That's exactly my point, which is why I'm baffled at the decision to release the game only 20 hours long.

 

Heart of Winter was crap because the content stunk.  If it were twice as long, it would've been even crappier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No argument there, let's look who was on the design team:

 

Chris Avellone, Stephen Bokkes, John Deiley, J.E. Sawyer <- oh **** :/

Edited April 23, 2006 by Moose

[Gromnir]

"Heart of Winter was crap because the content stunk. If it were twice as long, it would've been even crappier."

 

agreed, but keeps in mind that the most frequent complaints were 'bout length rather than content... also be aware that time estimates for HoW were in the 25 hour range, and many people got far less. so how long will nwn actually be for most of us posters? 15 hours? 10? for those of you who likes oblivion, go back and sees where you were in game at 15-20 hours... and ask self if you woulda' been satisfied if game had stopped at that point.

 

am not suggesting that a 20 hour game cannot satisfy, but we gotta note that we would be surprised if such a game did.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blank]

And replay value for CRPG's is a joke. Its not like NPC X is NOT going to betray you this time around or that the evil endboss will turn out to be someone completely different. And playing as a Class B instead of Class Y wont make any significant change either.

jeez, then why did i replay Kotor 1 & 2 thrice each? There is always more stuff that one has not experienced yet. You can play good, you can play evil, you can play male, you can play female, and variations of those. These things change the Role-playing atmosphere you place yourself in, and causes the game to be different.

 

At least, that works for me in general for any decent Crpgs. Maybe you need an imagination?

I'd rather play a 20-hr game than a 40-hr game that only has enough real content for a 20-hr one.

Agreed.

Really, so long as it's satisfying and a damned fine example of a game, why's 20 hours so short? If there's extensive replay value, which there should be, judging by what's already been said by the devs (I know...but I still trust them.), then that 20 hr game turns into 40+.

I also agree with you both. Especially Wolf's last sentence. If anybody is like me, then they meticulously try and accomplish every quest the first time through... and if they are like me once more, the second time through they do it again and find new stuff.

 

Hmm, and like Eldar, I am a single player person. 56k wouldn't cut it for MP.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Blank

[LoneWolf16]

Is it me, or is there an overwhelming sense of cynicism here? How about a little positivity? Would it kill you guys not to condemn design decisions until you've actually had an opportunity to sit down and play the game? Before you do, any and all of this is supposition...negative supposition. Just because it doesn't adhere to you guys' definition of a strong RPG doesn't mean it won't be.

 

 

 

Where'd that come from...

 

Anyway, I agree with Blank. Which strikes me as odd.

[Gromnir]

"That's exactly my point, which is why I'm baffled at the decision to release the game only 20 hours long."

 

gotta admit that Gromnir is surprised. the number of mp players of nwn were far less than the sp players, so we understands why obsidian would focus more on sp applications of their sequel game. 'course we woulda' thought that such devotion and attention to sp over mp would result in a longer sp campaign than 20 hours... which is pretty much what one expects from a pc crpg expansion.

 

maybe nwn2 is so damn amazing that 20 or fewer hours is more than enough... but it is gonna have to be pretty darn amazing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Cantousent]

Okay, I finished reading from the beginning to end. Sawyer never made an untoward comment to anyone. He was clearly a tiny bit exasperated by some fellow who complained about when the fans got some information. I thought that was kind of funny.

 

The question here is, are some of you upset because the game, not yet released, might be 20 hours? ...Or some of you upset because the single and small scale MP game received priority over PWs? There is more than one issue here, and I'm going to make a controversial statement by saying, unabashedly, that I want good graphics. No, I don't want good graphics attached to a bad game, but the better looking game, all else being equal, is better.

[Llyranor]

How much of BG1/2's 'hundreds of hours' wasn't spent in dungeons and killing critters, or exploring empty landscapes? How much of Morrowind's 500 hrs wasn't spent doing pointless crap? I'd easily cut out half those games' length if it meant better condensed gameplay. If I knew I wouldn't have to go through some of PST's mindless combat zones, it'd actually have more replay value. The majority of CRPGs I've played would have been more enjoyable if they were shorter and if the devs didn't bother artificially pumping up their length with useless crap. It wastes my time.

 

Length alone means squat. What matters is completeness (or its perception) of the content and the following sense of satisfaction. The only worrisome thing would be if the devs simply cut off actual content for the sake of a slam dunk, and whether they've kept the genre's standard proportion of crap-to-content. THAT's a valid concern, which would apply to a game regardless of its estimated length. A 80-hr game with a half-finished story is just as bad. Cut content is cut content. Length in and of itself has nothing to do with it.

[Gromnir]

"Is it me, or is there an overwhelming sense of cynicism here? How about a little positivity? Would it kill you guys not to condemn design decisions until you've actually had an opportunity to sit down and play the game"

 

if you don't wanna see more developers making shorter games, then tell them so. the fan loyalty thing is something we don't get. this is your opportunity as a consumer to speak to developers and tell 'em what you want and don't want. do you want a game you can finish in a single weekend? if so, then tell obsidian that 20 hours is good and great... but if you want more, then spit and curse and fume (w/i reason) and don't give a damned inch.

 

fan loyalty is a stoopid and misguided notion. you not ever get a better game 'cause you tell josh or fergie or chrisA how perfect they is. you needs to be giving positive and negative criticism to be getting better games... and you gotta be willing to not buy games that seems to be going in a direction opposite of what you want. if you buy nwn2 at announced 20 hours then you is telling developers and publishers in the loudest voice possible that 20 hours is 'nuff for you... and publishers and developers will continue to shrinks games so that they not have to spend more money making.

 

optimism is wasted.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Llyranor]

For the record, I finished Oblivion's main quest in under 20 hrs. What a short game!!! Bethesda lied!

[Moose]

Actually, I replay virtually every CRPG I play.  Some of them, BG2, PS:T, IWD 1, (and probably) Oblivion, I play several times from beginning to end.  I may or may not be the average gamer, but I'm the player making this post in support of his point of view.

 

Now, Moose, I actually read through up until the third iteration of the thread to which you referred.  Now, I have a long history of pointing out that Sawyer can be condescending and elitist in his remarks, so it's not like I turn a deaf ear to his comments.  I cannot see where he displays such tendencies in the original thread, the second thread, or even the third thread.  There might be a fourth thread, but he displays considerable restraint in the face of unreasonable hostility.

 

It depends from what perspective you read it. I'm used to PR bull****, so stuff like:

 

"PW makers are very motivated, very talented people but they still represent a relatively small portion of the people who want to play the game."

 

really winds me up tbh. To you it's probably a gentle way of saying that side of the community doesn't matter. To me it just sounds patronising.

 

To be perfectly honest, I believe your hostility is unreasoning.  Yes, I am a single player fan.  I am biased.  I want them to put more into the single player experience than multi-player.  Nevertheless, he didn't tell the PW crowd to shove it.  He said it would be harder to create a good PW with the same numbe of areas currently in fashion in NWN 1.  He goes on to say that including more areas in the future is a viable option.

 

No you've got me wrong, I actually agree that designing a game focussed on maximum profit is fair enough. Nobody is forcing you to buy NWN2, there are plenty of other games out there to buy instead. *However* given this news that the SP is looking to be around 20 hours long like Heart of Winter, then I think I'm perfectly entitled to think Obsidian have done the lame thing, cutting gameplay for nothing but a few shiny graphics and a quick sell on the back of Oblivion.

[Gromnir]

For the record, I finished Oblivion's main quest in under 20 hrs. What a short game!!! Bethesda lied!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

am recalling that you didn't seem to like oblivion much... and keeps in mind that as is typically the case, you finished in less time than developer announced. so how long you thinks nwn2 will actually be for you?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Llyranor]

Well, given how the awesome info is coming from an ambiguous quote translated from German, I'm not drawing any early conclusions yet.

 

In any case, I'm probably more open-minded about this "announcement" because I'm actually in favor of shorter, more condensed games. I don't want a 60-hr game with 75% spent in dungeons fighting mobs of morons.

 

An inherent problem, I guess, is that I don't really see NWN2 as aiming to turn the CRPG design conventions upside-down, so it probably won't be all pure content awesomeness, either. Now THAT is a concern.

[Gromnir]

"In any case, I'm probably more open-minded about this "announcement" because I'm actually in favor of shorter, more condensed games. I don't want a 60-hr game with 75% spent in dungeons fighting mobs of morons."

 

and that must mean that you don't want a 40 hour game with excellent story and compelling gameplay, right? 20 announced hours is half of 40... and announced hours tends to be inflated anyways. so tell obsidian that 20 is ok if you wish, but we thinks that you is sending the wrong message.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

You have to read through the whole thing. Imho by the end of it Sawyer looks quite the ****, but I'll leave you to judge for yourselves.

I offered up unpleasant information that no one else was eager to offer up, on a game I've been the lead of for a grand total of two months.

[Llyranor]

and that must mean that you don't want a 40 hour game with excellent story and compelling gameplay, right?  20 announced hours is half of 40... and announced hours tends to be inflated anyways.  so tell obsidian that 20 is ok if you wish, but we thinks that you is sending the wrong message.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not when the excellent story and compelling gameplay aren't directly associated with the 40-hrs. There've ALWAYS been sections (sometimes quite large ones, too) I didn't enjoy in all CRPGs I've played, and I would have happily seen them cut; that kind of fluff actually gets in the way of 'excellent story and compelling gameplay'. In fact, I *am* fine with 20 hrs, if that meant the elimination of filler content.

 

Of course, then comes the slippery slope of simply making games shorter without actually getting rid of the filler. That's a design issue, not one of length.

[Dhruin]

But the downsides of shortening games are not to be taken lightly either

• Players will feel cheated when theyve paid full price for a game that only takes a weekend to finish
   
  
• A short game will not create the same kind of "buzz" that a game like Oblivion does, where people will chitter excitedly about their experience with the game over the course of several weeks. Instead, people will play it the weekend its released, do a sort of "postmortem" on it during the week after and then "Poof!" its gone from the eye of the public! No, free hype for you.
   
  
• If people finish the game quickly, theyll lend it to their mates the same week its released and those mates wont buy it, and you lose sales. If you had kept them playing that week, their mates would have gone "Damn, that looks fun. Ill buy a copy tomorrow"
  

and the list goes on. it doesnt really pay to be lazy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't remember the last time I agreed with you but you have some points here. A short game can certainly still create "buzz" (obviously) but the longer a game is around generating positive discussion, the better. RPGs are also a bit of a special case - if the character develops to an "epic" level too quickly, it feels trite.

 

Having said that, who knows if he just meant the critical path or most of the content? And Fallout is pretty short - but pretty sweet. I'd be surprised if they had that depth of choice...but if they do, I'd be happy with 20 hours.

[Moose]

I offered up unpleasant information that no one else was eager to offer up, on a game I've been the lead of for a grand total of two months.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yay, cos I haven't heard that line before.

[Gromnir]

josh tends to be more honest than the average developer mouthpiece. it has been noted that josh may not be the most diplomatic developer, but we would prefer to hear more news from that old crank than we is to hear the deafening silence of chrisA and others.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blank]

For the record, I finished Oblivion's main quest in under 20 hrs. What a short game!!! Bethesda lied!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

+20 TOMBS points for superb use of sarcasm to prove your point.

[Gromnir]

"There've ALWAYS been sections (sometimes quite large ones, too) I didn't enjoy in all CRPGs I've played,"

 

and in spite of the fact that you "ALWAYS" has seen such stuff in the past you is gonna somehow imagine that nwn2 manages to cut all that stuff out... especially as it is a D&D game which is, first and foremost, a squad-based tactical combat game. there pretty much has to be some meaningless combats if only to prepare you for the tougher ones latter on in the game.

 

 

you have some rather strong evidence that game is shorter than 40 hours... by upwards of 20 hours. you got any such similar reasons to believe that obsidian has managed to revolutionize crpgs and d&d so that you not got no fluff no more?

 

sorry, but your reasoning seems suspect.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yay, cos I haven't heard that line before.

What are you talking about?