Scaling.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I know it's flavour of the month over at TES . But what about the implications for other RPGS ? Like PNJ and PG for example.

 

Good thing about scaling. The game has stayed challenging. Bad thing, if you happened to make a non combat oriented character your in trouble.

 

Since scaling is generally about combat , it should perhaps be based on your combat related skills alone and not just on a level number ?

 

Bad things about scaling.

 

To long finding crap (although given the speed of level up in Oblivion it could have been worse). But do you really want to spend 10 levels finding rusty and useless items with no chance of a "good find" because of scaling?

 

On the other end of the scale. It rains powerful items so they completely lose their specialness. Silly instances in Oblivion for example where bandits wearing gear costing 1000's of GP are demanding 100 gp off you.

 

Somewhere between those two extremes there must be some sort of happy middle ground where you get enough useful stuff to keep you going, with the chance of a nice suprise. But without getting to the point where you just at finding another uber death sword.

[mkreku]

I just wish that they had done it the ordinary way: placed tough monsters in the difficult to find parts of the world, slowed down the levelling rate of the main character and made the levels on opponents static. The dungeons should have been filled with pre-determined stuff, hand-placed stuff, both enemies and loot, instead of this total overdose of crap I am seeing now.

 

The scaling really offsets some enemies. Goblin warlords beat my super-equipped mega-fighter nine times out of ten, for example. Barehanded!

[astr0creep]

Just a thought but...

 

No patches have been released yet. I'm pretty sure Bethesda will release a fix soon that will deal with some of the issues of their flagship game.

 

And mods are already popping up...

 

 

Patience is the mother of all virtues.

 

[karka]

Make a game with scaling and lose me...

 

If everything scales with my progression, then what is the purpose of progression? Just make a FPS then...

Edited March 30, 2006 by karka

[Lyric Suite]

Patience is the mother of all virtues.

 

Fair enough. I urge anybody to wait until this game gets thrown in a bargain bin before buying it, so that Bethesda can learn that lesson as well...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Just a thought but...

 

No patches have been released yet. I'm pretty sure Bethesda will release a fix soon that will deal with some of the issues of their flagship game.

 

And mods are already popping up...

 

 

Patience is the mother of all virtues.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe, but thats not the point of the thread. It's what can be learned from Oblivion so you dont repeat the same mistakes.

 

As for correcting it. Well it looks like quite a lot of people actually like the scaling as it is.

[Atreides]

Oh, so you can lvl up while everyone else has to stay static. I don't think so.

[Shadowstrider]

Good thing about scaling. The game has stayed challenging. Bad thing, if you happened to make a non combat oriented character your in trouble.

 

This is not true. Scaling applies to other things, as well. Whether it is difficulty of persuasion or stealth, or combat, scaling can be a good way to maintain a challenge. Just because Oblivion, or other CRPGs do not do it, does not mean it cannot be done.

 

DMs have done it in PnP since the beginning of tabletop. It isn't a huge mystery why you encounter kobolds in the first dungeon and ogres in the latest.

 

 

 

Since scaling is generally about combat , it should perhaps be based on your combat related skills alone and not just on a level number ?

 

This isn't the case all the time, additionally, how does someone gauge what skills are or are not combat related? Is athletics combat related in Oblivion? How about Acrobatics? The only skills I can think of that absolutely are not is speechcraft/barter skills, but even these can be made useable in a game's combat (just hasn't been the case thus far).

 

Bad things about scaling.

 

To long finding crap (although given the speed of level up in Oblivion it could have been worse). But do you really want to spend 10 levels finding rusty and useless items with no chance of a "good find" because of scaling?

 

I agree, on one hand you should have risk equal reward, on the other, I want to be able to challenge myself excessively and be rewarded excessively for this. It cannot be done if scaling is absolute ala Oblivion.

 

On the other end of the scale. It rains powerful items so they completely lose their specialness. Silly instances in Oblivion for example where bandits wearing gear costing 1000's of GP are demanding 100 gp off you.

 

I wouldn't say it makes magical items less special. With boots of speed in Oblivion I can run much faster than without, and that helps me. It just makes it so that other people have items of similar, but not duplicated strength.

 

Somewhere between those two extremes there must be some sort of happy middle ground where you get enough useful stuff to keep you going, with the chance of a nice suprise. But without getting to the point where you just  at finding another uber death sword.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is, the problem is implementing it, and implementing it well.

[Shadowstrider]

Make a game with scaling and lose me...

 

If everything scales with my progression, then what is the purpose of progression? Just make a FPS then...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This makes no sense.

 

Whats the difference between fighting a goblin and fighting a giant, aside from cosmetics? A giant is just a more powerful foe to pit against the PC. That is scaling.

 

All RPGs have had scaling.

[astr0creep]

Just a thought but...

 

No patches have been released yet. I'm pretty sure Bethesda will release a fix soon that will deal with some of the issues of their flagship game.

 

And mods are already popping up...

 

 

Patience is the mother of all virtues.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe, but thats not the point of the thread. It's what can be learned from Oblivion so you dont repeat the same mistakes.

 

As for correcting it. Well it looks like quite a lot of people actually like the scaling as it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I haven't played Oblivion yet.

 

I don't mind some scaling, like some enemies but you need generic ones. As for scaling weapons/armor/items availability, I don't think it has any place in an OPEN ENDED world like what Elder Scrolls games are supposed to provide.

 

In Morrowind I could go pick up those 2 special weapons to beat Dagoth Ur right from the start if I wanted to. The problem was that it was too easy to get them(invisibility) and some scaled enemies would've been nice.

 

Meh.

[astr0creep]

Make a game with scaling and lose me...

 

If everything scales with my progression, then what is the purpose of progression? Just make a FPS then...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This makes no sense.

 

Whats the difference between fighting a goblin and fighting a giant, aside from cosmetics? A giant is just a more powerful foe to pit against the PC. That is scaling.

 

All RPGs have had scaling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The difference is in the ROLE-PLAYING and the CONVENTIONS that come with it. If a Goblin is as strong as a Giant without any special buffs, something's wrong with the balancing.

 

Imo. "

[Haitoku]

Oh, so you can lvl up while everyone else has to stay static.  I don't think so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not a bad idea in theory, but like SP pointed out, if you are not 100% focused on some sort of combat, you are screwed, plain and simple. The thing is, you level up far too fast in Oblivion, so fast that it only takes a few skill-ups from your major skills to level up. A few skills-up and a level won't put you in the same rank as some of the later, normal encounter enemies.

 

I imagine the level scaling system works a bit like this...

 

Your character goes up to level 30 after getting X amount of major skill-ups... Let's say that puts his Blade skill at 70 (since he also leveled up getting skill-ups on other skills). Now a Goblin Blade fighter would level up too... But since his levels aren't determined by major skills, he just gets his blade skill up to 80.

 

If you level up every time you are told you can, you might have problems later in the game if you did not focus on some type of combat (even then, it can be tough for rangers).

[Shadowstrider]

The difference is in the ROLE-PLAYING and the CONVENTIONS that come with it. If a Goblin is as strong as a Giant without any special buffs, something's wrong with the balancing.

 

Imo.  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So many words, so little meaning.

 

I already said "A giant is just a more powerful foe to pit against the PC."

 

Level 1: goblin -> Level 20: giant

 

That's scaling.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Shadowstrider

[Haitoku]

http://fuzionmedia.com/oblivion/

 

For those who hate the level up system, a MOD that might interest you.

[astr0creep]

So many words, so little meaning.

 

I already said "A giant is just a more powerful foe to pit against the PC."

 

Level 1: goblin -> Level 20: giant

 

That's scaling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now, now, don't be mean I was just theorizing as I have not played it yet for financial reasons only. I will buy it ASAP...

 

When you are level 20, are there still lvl 1 Goblins running around or just Lvl 20 Giants instead(or lvl 20 Goblins)?

 

What about weapons/armor/items availability? Is the scaling in this case only for loot carried by dead enemies or is also applied when a dungeon/city/room is loaded?

 

Is leveled items/enemies the same thing as scalability or something completely different?

[kefka]

I hate the scaling in Oblivion. Possibly the worst I've seen. Not just because everything is at your level but they have the same gear too. Glass, daedric, ebony, you name it. Bandits even occupy the same position. I think Bethesda didn't expect people to revisit places they'd looted before. haha! Want to find that ringleader? No problem, he's standing exactly where the previous one was! It killed the immersion almost stone dead for me.

 

Is there even a need for scaling? Gothic 2 had none. But the sense of accomplishment as you improved your skills was unmatched. The reward vs risk factor is non-existent in Oblivion. Why bother when the enemies are always as good as you? That's the whole point of leveling - to become better than the opposition.

 

Since scaling is generally about combat, it should perhaps be based on your combat related skills alone and not just on a level number

That's the best way of doing it I reckon. Of course I'd prefer no scaling but the way Oblivion is now it punishes the non combat character. So much for allowing you to do whatever you want. Just don't attempt the main story because you may find it impossible.

 

It rains powerful items so they completely lose their specialness. Silly instances in Oblivion for example where bandits wearing gear costing 1000's of GP are demanding 100 gp off you.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Thats the reasonable way to scale things. Doesnt Oblivion do it by simply increasing the power of the Goblin? So:

 

 

Level 1 Goblin -> level 20 Goblin ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Now, now, don't be mean I was just theorizing as I have not played it yet for financial reasons only. I will buy it ASAP...

 

When you are level 20, are there still lvl 1 Goblins running around or just Lvl 20 Giants instead(or lvl 20 Goblins)?

 

What about weapons/armor/items availability? Is the scaling in this case only for loot carried by dead enemies or is also applied when a dungeon/city/room is loaded?

 

Is leveled items/enemies the same thing as scalability or something completely different?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As you level , the goblin levels with you. In plot instances you have different creatures. But they level too so you not only end up with a tougher creature but a tougher boosted creature.

[Shadowstrider]

Now, now, don't be mean I was just theorizing as I have not played it yet for financial reasons only. I will buy it ASAP...

 

I wasn't being mean. I just didn't see the point of your post.

 

When you are level 20, are there still lvl 1 Goblins running around or just Lvl 20 Giants instead(or lvl 20 Goblins)?

 

Oblivion's scaling is on the extreme end of the spectrum. Most enemies do scale to your level, so if you're involved in a quest to kill goblins and level 20, you'll face level 20 goblins. Random monters, on the other hand, are random and do change as you level up.

 

At low levels you encounter things like wolves or boars. Towards the higher levels you meet things like ogres, minotaurs or spriggans.

 

What about weapons/armor/items availability? Is the scaling in this case only for loot carried by dead enemies or is also applied when a dungeon/city/room is loaded?

 

Is leveled items/enemies the same thing as scalability or something completely different?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As has been said, Oblivion is entirely leveled. Everything scales to your level, at least everything that springs to mind.

[Shadowstrider]

Thats the reasonable way to scale things. Doesnt Oblivion do it by simply increasing the power of the Goblin? So:

 

 

Level 1 Goblin -> level 20 Goblin  ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Oblivion has both. In undead areas, for example, you can go from skeletons and mauled zombies to wraithes and other things.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Is there even a need for scaling? Gothic 2 had none. But the sense of accomplishment as you improved your skills was unmatched. The reward vs risk factor is non-existent in Oblivion. Why bother when the enemies are always as good as you? That's the whole point of leveling - to become better than the opposition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good question. I've not played Gothic. But I have played the odd MMPORG. And the further away you go from a population centre the tougher things get. There are also areas you just dont go at level 1. Couldnt see anyone owning the planes with a rusty dagger for instance.

 

But at the same time you keep the sense of accomplishment since your levels allow you to go places you couldnt go before. Although in many respects it's much like Oblivion where you get weaker in relation to the monsters as you level. And your equipment defines you more than your skills.

[astr0creep]

Now, now, don't be mean I was just theorizing as I have not played it yet for financial reasons only. I will buy it ASAP...

 

When you are level 20, are there still lvl 1 Goblins running around or just Lvl 20 Giants instead(or lvl 20 Goblins)?

 

What about weapons/armor/items availability? Is the scaling in this case only for loot carried by dead enemies or is also applied when a dungeon/city/room is loaded?

 

Is leveled items/enemies the same thing as scalability or something completely different?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As you level , the goblin levels with you. In plot instances you have different creatures. But they level too so you not only end up with a tougher creature but a tougher boosted creature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats what I thought from your previous explanations ShadowP and thats what scaling is supposed to be.

So what is ShadowS saying then?

 

Anyway I still say there should be some enemies that are not scaling. In an open-ended world. What about items?

[karka]

Leveling up just to see new monsters and boosted old enemies...Definitely not attractive.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Thats what I thought from your previous explanations ShadowP and thats what scaling is supposed to be.

So what is ShadowS saying then?   

 

Anyway I still say there should be some enemies that are not scaling. In an open-ended world. What about items?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah well he should know more than I do anyway. I'm just speaking from my experiences of playing the game. He was in on making it.

[astr0creep]

Now, now, don't be mean I was just theorizing as I have not played it yet for financial reasons only. I will buy it ASAP...

 

I wasn't being mean. I just didn't see the point of your post.

 

When you are level 20, are there still lvl 1 Goblins running around or just Lvl 20 Giants instead(or lvl 20 Goblins)?

 

Oblivion's scaling is on the extreme end of the spectrum. Most enemies do scale to your level, so if you're involved in a quest to kill goblins and level 20, you'll face level 20 goblins. Random monters, on the other hand, are random and do change as you level up.

 

At low levels you encounter things like wolves or boars. Towards the higher levels you meet things like ogres, minotaurs or spriggans.

 

What about weapons/armor/items availability? Is the scaling in this case only for loot carried by dead enemies or is also applied when a dungeon/city/room is loaded?

 

Is leveled items/enemies the same thing as scalability or something completely different?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As has been said, Oblivion is entirely leveled. Everything scales to your level, at least everything that springs to mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*Sorry I missed your posts while I was writing mine*

 

Well this sounds to me like Morrowind improved. You have erased most of my worries about the game, although scaling items in this open world seems like a big problem. Can you still find "special" weapons/armor/items, like in caves, dungeons or can't you access those if low level?