Meshugger Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Link. Ironically, he got the last laugh. No trial for him. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 He was already trialled... Anyways... we surely clean house here in the Hague... second War-Criminal dead within this week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Di Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 At least that farce of a so-called "trial" can finally be ended. Five freaking years, still no resolution, and the only thing it proved to the world was that Milosevic could control the Hague the same way he controlled the Balkans. International justice has become a joke. I don't know whether I'm just glad the butcher is finally dead, or disappointed that his death was so gentle compared to the horror he inflicted on so many. Too bad he didn't drop dead years ago, before he'd managed to turn the Hague tribunal into such an impotent laughing stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 International justice has become a joke. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> unfortunately, IMO, it has always been a joke. we are a world of individual nations, who should conduct business based on treaties, not some vague international law that only serves to benefit those that write it. international law is used more as a political tool than for any other real purpose. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 unfortunately, IMO, it has always been a joke. You beat me to it. I'm still waiting for them to have some of the other faction leaders for that war stand trial for war crimes. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baby arm Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I'm glad he's dead Too bad it wasn't an official execution after the trial, though. He didn't deserve to die in his sleep (if that's what happened). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brdavs Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I certenlly cant say I am sorry... but I do find it amusing and somewhat sad when I read/look at the reactions from the world. I am from Slovenia and I have a bit closer perspectivete on the war among nations who once called themselves brothers... And it seems to me that you people need a scape-goat nomatter what. At first in 91 that was supposed to be my country, and for some it still is. (I just thank God we got out of the former homeland so "elegantly", with no real war.) I say this: He was an actor in a bloodbath. A major actor, nodoubt. But do not relativize the tensions that existed and still do without him. Only tito and his stalin-like cult of personality could keep those in line. The actions that took place in what was once the champion of the movement of independent countries cannot be contributed to mearley one man, or even one nation. Serious **** took place, on all sides. And it was a long time coming. A dream that was a unified brotherhood was just that... a dream... and it soon turned into a nightmare. Who is to blame? All. And none. So the titles like "bootcher of the balkans is dead" merely bring out a bitter-sweet smile on my face. A smile caused by realisation, that while the world knows so much about the ex-yugoslavia, it understands so little. So if you choose to think his death brings a sort of closure, and that some poetic justice has been done on the main culprit, go right ahaed... People, it would seem, always needed a clear-cut lightside/darkside solution and a culprit to sleep better at night. Reallity... thats something different. I, as a member of a generation that barely remembers the war (I was like 6 at the time) hope dearly that a Slovene, Croat, Serb and others will one day be able to look on eachother like they did 35/40 years ago, when we were jugoslavs first and other later. But I see that at the minimum distrust is beeing past over to the next generation. And not solely because of the war. (Polls in croatia show that serbs are more popular there that slovenes. And we were never at war lol. Dont ask me why.) Let us hope future generations find it more natural to live side by side in a new brootherhood... Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 while i certainly understand your position and agree that headlines as you've pointed out serve little good, i disagree with the "one actor" position. in the end, a leader is responsible for the actions of his subordinates. this works with countries as well as individual businesses. ken lay, of enron fame, should be held accountable for his underlings as much as milosevic should. he was in charge, and he had the ultimate power to stop the bloodshed. nor does the "both sides" argument hold. should travesties have occurred on the "other side" they too should be held accountable, but any attempt to excuse milosevic because of this laughable. two wrongs do not justify themselves. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 "So the titles like "bootcher of the balkans is dead" merely bring out a bitter-sweet smile on my face." the "butcher of the balkans" label were a translation mistake. should actually read as follows: "the fluffy bunny of the balkans is dead." sorry for the confusion. nevertheless, in the future we will simply note that A butcher of the balkans died... as 'posed to THE butcher of the balkans. everybody feel better now? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 (edited) It is utterly unclear whether Milosevic's death closes a chapter in my country's history - or just flips to a new page. Like Brdavs points out, the whole story is a lot more complex than Murdoch and Turner would have you believe. While Milosevic certainly carried a gargantuan portion of the blame, he was hardly the only culprit. All three of the original political leaders of Serbia, Croatia, and (Muslim) Bosnia are now dead, and justice has not been served. All that is known for sure is that all three grew immensely rich during their rule, as did their close associates. The extent of this fortune is not known, but Milosevic alone was said to have amassed billions of dollars. Innocent people on all sides died thinking that they were fighting for their country, but it's clear from this time distance that the entire thing was orchestrated by Milosevic and Tudjman (and later Izetbegovic) to help them preserve power in a turbulent environment. It is highly doubtful that the Hague would have been able to conclusively prove Milosevic's guilt. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that he was guilty, but he was quite clever - leaving virtually no written or recorded evidence. He did everything through intermediaries, the most significant of whom is Jovica Stanisic, former chief of State Security (i.e. the secret police). Interestingly enough, the Hague Tribunal allowed Stanisic to defend himself from freedom, indicating that this incredibly dangerous man still has enough strings to pull even in international institutions. Milosevic was guilty to his own people just as much as he is to our neighbors. Those who lived in Serbia during the 1990s (like me) remember the endless lines of refugees, street gunfights, hyperinflation, police brutality, total corruption (which is still present and proving quite difficult to root out), Goebbels-style propaganda, and much, much more. I participated in protests against Milosevic's regime from the time I became politically aware (at the age of 13) until October 5th, 2000, when he was finally defeated. Perhaps it would have been for the best if he had been killed that day, like Chausesku in Romania some 10 years before that. This way, he held us all hostage in a manner for five long years after late Prime Minister Djindjic sent him off to the Netherlands. Radical elements are fairly strong right now around here. Polls show that the ultra-nationalist Serbian Radical Party has over 30% of the popular vote; democratic parties are fractured and must resort to weak coalitions to regain power. Unfortunately, the Radicals will use Milosevic's death in the Hague after the Tribunal refused to allow him to get medical treatment in Russia as a proof of his martyrdom. They will doubtlessly gain even more at the polls, and I fear that they are going to win the next elections. Edited March 11, 2006 by Sammael There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brdavs Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Dont turn this around as so I defend him or anything that happened. Im not saying two wrongs make a right, where did you get that from? Im just pointing out that there is moro here that what an avarege american/european joe sees on cnn <_< And the coverege is bigger now than when the actuall war ended. Gromnir youre a perfect example of a avarege american/european joe that knows nothing else but what cnn reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Di Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 (edited) Thank you, Sammael, for that illuminating glimpse into your own difficult experience. Your understanding and explanation of what these people (yes, of course there were more than just a few to blame for the horror that was visited upon that region) did, their motives, their greed and their corruption, has been sobering and for me, at least, extremely enlightening. I appreciate your sharing it with us. So many who should have been help accountable for their atrocities, yes on all sides, have been and still are being ignored. There will never, it seems, be true justice for this shattered region. @Brdavs: Do not fall into the trap of doing to others what you accuse them of doing... making presumption without fact, and generalizing not only an individual about whom you know nothing, but also an entire country based upon your own bias. Edited March 11, 2006 by ~Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 International Law is flawed. Guilty people don't just get off, they never even face trial. Pol Pot, anyone? The system needs a total reworking. Milosovic wasn't the first and won't be the last (Saddam Hussein) to make a total mockery international "law". OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreptishus Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Isn't saddam being tried by an Iraqi court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Not sure about that ... isn't it International Law, just located in Iraq? It's some sort of International Law facsimile. (I doubt Saddam had any laws against crimes against humaity.) OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 You mean the Saddam who just waves his hand and says "I don't care for this" and walks out of his own trial? Yeah, he's being processed indeed! DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarkon Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Things were simpler when the leaders of a country were assassinated, tortured, and/or butchered alongside their families upon being overthrown. In some sense, that still seems to be the best solution, as the mere presence of fallen demagogues appears to bring about instability. The conquerors of old were wise to remove them at their roots. There are doors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Raven Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 We all get our just deserts in the end. He will pay for his crimes in the Afterlife if you believe in such a thing. Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 (edited) Dont turn this around as so I defend him or anything that happened. Im not saying two wrongs make a right, where did you get that from? i wasn't specifically accusing you of making that statement, though it certainly could have been implied (both that i was accusing you and that you were implying that). we - the average joe american - probably know more than you give us credit for. we are not stupid nor do we blindly watch CNN and believe it all... war is pretty well known everywhere in the world, and we all know neither side fully obeys the "rules of war" (sort of a jokish idea, too). Gromnir youre a perfect example of a avarege american/european joe that knows nothing else but what cnn reports <{POST_SNAPBACK}> hehe... i would put forth that you are more than wrong with that statement. taks Edited March 12, 2006 by taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Isn't saddam being tried by an Iraqi court? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yes. and i'm not sure it is "international law in a criminal court", either. i'm not actually sure they've ever said one way or another, for that matter. taks PS: sammael, i had forgotten you were from the area. i'm sorry for what you must be going through... do you intend to stay should the radicals regain power? it is amazing that after all the death there are still those that think such fanaticism is a good thing. i'm sorry, it is not amazing, it is a shame. i wish you the best of luck. comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Yeah, he's being processed indeed! We all get our just deserts in the end. Soylent green... “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 We all get our just deserts in the end. He will pay for his crimes in the Afterlife if you believe in such a thing. O RLY - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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