KOTOR2's My Favorite Game, but I hate one thing...

[thelastusernamenotalreadytaken]

It drove me nuts that I had to pick Good or Evil - Light or Dark. I wanted desperately to do exactly what Kreia was on about, to try to figure out her rationale and carry through it to its logical conclusion - to be neither white nor black but gray, to sit astride the balance of cosmic forces like a towering colossus and command both as I progressed towards absolute pow--...er, uh... :"> sorry, it just bugged me.

 

anyhow yeah i mean i loved the game to death, could've looked past any of the missing content otherwise, but it was such a bummer to witness a character like kreia, to hear her thoughts for the whole game, to, as a player, figure out what her logic was, interpret the game in its terms, feel like i was really figuring something out above-and-beyond the standard dialogue-tree puzzles, fancy myself discovering the ultimate 'hidden level' - realizing she's right...and then not have the ****ing option to go anywhere with it. i felt like i was being forced to play a dimwitted character - /i/ could figure out kreia's teachings, why couldn't my dude?, he had high INT! :'(

 

i loved the game but i still feel i can say it spoiled it for me :|

i know obsidian will never, ever read this far into such a crazy message, but i so so so hope that in the next one they give some options for a "neutral" character...without making it stupidly obvious, by making it something you achieve rather than 'select'...

 

i think kreia was just the neatest character in a videogame ever, I've never had the little philosophical nooks and crannies of my gray matter excited in such a fashion by any computer game ever, I had thought, "Well, computer game designers know about puzzles and graphics, but they'll never get dialogue or philosophy right - only great writers can manage that." but then obsidian goes and teases me so cruelly with kreia :~(

 

if im the only one who feels this way, i feel special and that's nice :~) but since they'll probably only ever do something about the 'problem' if /other/ people feel this way too i guess i have to want some of you to have gone through this as well didja????

[Jediphile]

First of all, I agree with you that the game forces you to choose against Kreia. It was logical to me, but I guess you should have the option to agree with her, even after all she has put you through.

 

However, you say that Kreia is gray. I don't agree with that. Kreia is definitely darksided in my book. Why you may ask, especially when she clearly is opposed to the goals of conquest and power that Nihilus and Sion are. Well, Kreia is still trying to bring about certain conditions - namely the death of the force - regardless of whether people want it or not. So she is trying to excert her desires of what the universe should look like over those of everyone else's. That's not a very kind thing to do. In fact, it's worse than the oppression of the Sith, since the consequences can be devastating. The force is created by life. What is life without the force? No one knows, and it might be best not to find out... And yet Kreia wants the force to die anyway. Just because her goals are not the same as those of other Sith, that doesn't mean she's not evil. She puts her goals above those of everyone else and forces the matter. She's definitely evil.

 

It just doesn't look that way because jedi or sith - the both want the force to live. The force is their tool, after all. The jedi serve the will of the force, and the sith use as a tool that gives them power. But they both agree that it should continue to exist. What would the jedi be without the force? What would the sith be without the force? Kreia wants the force to die, but she doesn't care whether others agree with her or what the consequences will be. That's evil. She's a right Lady Macbeth, the old hag...

 

And yes, Kreia is a great character. I love Sara Kestelman's voice-acting. I mean, just see my sig...

[The Great Phantom]

Well, Jediphile, you beat me to the punch... I was going to say that!

[Jediphile]

Sorry - my bad :"> :D

[dtriniman]

Then you're not really angry at Kreia but Obsidian for forcing you to choose a side.

 

Jediphile you can't say that she is darkside. Think of this way. If there is no force there is no Jedi but there is also no Sith. It would take out the good guys but also the bad. It's like a general sterilization. Sure you woudn't have anyone to protect the galaxy but you also wouldn't have anyone to threaten it either.

 

There is a reason when you look at Kreia in your character screen she is grey. She really is neutral. She had the best of both worlds. She taught as a Jedi Master and look how it turned out; her student "turned" on the council by going to the aid of the Republic. Then after that "turning" on the Republic. She taught as a Sith and her 2 students turned on her.

 

But she really is the best written character. Here is an excerpt from a popular review:

 

The nuances of the Dark Side are also explored. Different gradations of "evil" are examined -- how the noble ambitions of Revan and Malak in the first game became twisted into a parody of their former selves and how that compares to the game's new villain who has no interest in conquest or control -- only destruction. Much of that comes through dialogue with one of your companions, Kreia, a woman who who has "fallen" from the Dark Side and now maintains an aggressively hostile neutrality to both sides of the Force. Kreia is, without a doubt, the most compelling character in the game. Her constant challenges on why I made the choices I did was the reason I kept her with me through the entire game.

 

Just how well Kreia is written comes home after the first two planets are completed. While you get access to your Force powers pretty quickly, it'll be some time before you get your lightsaber. At first I thought this a negative. What's the point in playing a Jedi if you don't have a lightsaber? Just at the moment I started really getting annoyed, I had a talk with Kreia during which I told her that I wanted my lightsaber, and she proceeded to grill me on exactly why I wanted one. Through the conversation, I began to understand just what powerful symbolism the Jedi weapons carry and how a Jedi's attitude affects the type, color and style of lightsaber they use. For a brief moment, the lightsaber stopped being merely a cool weapon and instead became an awesome responsibility. I had fallen into my role and was truly thinking like a Jedi -- and there's no better compliment I can give a "role"-playing game. When I finally received my lightsaber, it became much more meaningful because of the game's storytelling.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, if there was no Sith or Jedi, then gangs and hutts and other crap would take their shot at galaxy-wide domination... With no Jedi to stand in their way.

 

(not to mention, the Death of the Force would have killed anything that heard it, since not all were as strong as the Exile and would have been able to save themselves from it)

[Jediphile]

Then you're not really angry at Kreia but Obsidian for forcing you to choose a side.

 

Jediphile you can't say that she is darkside. Think of this way. If there is no force there is no Jedi but there is also no Sith. It would take out the good guys but also the bad. It's like a general sterilization. Sure you woudn't have anyone to protect the galaxy but you also wouldn't have anyone to threaten it either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Imposing your own will above that of everyone else is what being Sith is all about, and the force is just a tool to reach your ambitions, no matter what they are. Kreia may want the force to die. A consequence of that is that the Sith will be destroyed. But Sith killing Sith is not unheard of. Indeed, Palpatine was perfectly willing to sacrifice sith to achieve his goals, and Kreia is still using the force to achieve her goals, even if that goal is to destroy the force itself. That she will kill the other sith as a side-effect is immaterial to her. If it needs to be done, then so be it. Can't be much more sith than that.

 

There is a reason when you look at Kreia in your character screen she is grey. She really is neutral. She had the best of both worlds. She taught as  a Jedi Master and look how it turned out; her student "turned" on the council by going to the aid of the Republic. Then after that "turning" on the Republic. She taught as  a Sith and her 2 students turned on her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia admits herself that she's sith. But you're right that there's a reason she's grey on the character screen. The reason for that is that she is hiding her true intentions from everyone, especially from the Exile, which is the player. If she is grey, then why is she Darth Traya? I dare say grumpy old Jolee would have a thing or two about Kreia being deemed grey as he is... Careful, or Jolee will talk our ears on the matter...

 

But she really is the best written character. Here is an excerpt from a popular review:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I definitely agree that she's a wonderful character. Vader was a wonderful character in the original trilogy. Garak is a wonderful character on Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. Gaius Baltar is a wonderful character in the new Galactica show.

 

This does not mean that I admire them as role-models, though.

 

The nuances of the Dark Side are also explored. Different gradations of "evil" are examined -- how the noble ambitions of Revan and Malak in the first game became twisted into a parody of their former selves and how that compares to the game's new villain who has no interest in conquest or control -- only destruction. Much of that comes through dialogue with one of your companions, Kreia, a woman who who has "fallen" from the Dark Side and now maintains an aggressively hostile neutrality to both sides of the Force. Kreia is, without a doubt, the most compelling character in the game. Her constant challenges on why I made the choices I did was the reason I kept her with me through the entire game.

 

Just how well Kreia is written comes home after the first two planets are completed. While you get access to your Force powers pretty quickly, it'll be some time before you get your lightsaber. At first I thought this a negative. What's the point in playing a Jedi if you don't have a lightsaber? Just at the moment I started really getting annoyed, I had a talk with Kreia during which I told her that I wanted my lightsaber, and she proceeded to grill me on exactly why I wanted one. Through the conversation, I began to understand just what powerful symbolism the Jedi weapons carry and how a Jedi's attitude affects the type, color and style of lightsaber they use. For a brief moment, the lightsaber stopped being merely a cool weapon and instead became an awesome responsibility. I had fallen into my role and was truly thinking like a Jedi -- and there's no better compliment I can give a "role"-playing game. When I finally received my lightsaber, it became much more meaningful because of the game's storytelling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lots of people hate Kreia, only I'm not one of them. But I do think what you mention here is the reason for both (both why I like Kreia and why many others hate her). Gray or dark, Kreia will make you think. She's a lot like Socrates, who constantly challenged people on their perceptions and forced them to reconsider their opinions. In the same way, Kreia will not let you move on unless she thinks you've truly comtemplated an issue, and she will persist in discussing it, until she's satisfied you've considered all sides to it. She's different from Jolee, however, in that she doesn't want you to think for yourself quite as much as she wants to convince you to agree with her take on things. People felt Socrates was so annoying that they eventually had condemned to death for it. Unsurprisingly many feel the same way about Kreia.

[thelastusernamenotalreadytaken]

Well I love Kreia to pieces!, and I guess it doesn't matter so much what "side" she falls into technically?, I just like KOTOR I'm not really into the movies so I don't know all the logic of what makes one light or dark, but I still, personally, think she qualifies as neutral ultimately, in terms of her goals in-and-of-themselves -- the final results of her plots are, taken on their own, "gray". Ends, not means, I suppose - and she addresses this point in the course of the game.

 

I guess the only point I was really trying to make - I wasn't trying to start a debate on what Kreia "was" - was just that, hey, come on, there really, really, really should've been that option, right?, and I know that in KOTOR3 I'd love to do my utmost to stick to what Kreia had taught - and if there isn't that option yet again, well, I'll feel like I'm being forced to play a certain type of character not of my chosing, then, which always stinks. :| ...especially in a game in the KOTOR series, which stands out above all other games in terms of non-linear, moral-driven character-development.

 

Another thing that bugs me is that in RPG games, the dialogue is always written for you. I think it'd be nicer if it just said /what/ you say, not /how/ you say it. but i guess that's digressing kindof but that's bugged me and i just wanted to say it.

 

so anyhow, don't get me wrong, I love Kreia -- and yeah, I guess I dislike what Obsidian did/didn't do, not Kreia herself...the whole point is that I dug the character /so/ much and then just didn't have the choice to go her way, really, at any point in the game. I've replayed the thing SO many times, hoping against hope that, well, maybe if I do /everything/ in my power to keep my influence with her high (and I used cheat codes too, out of desperation!), /maybe/ a new dialogue tree will open /somewhere/, and it just never did omg :| I've thought about restarting the game several times since, but I'm always dissuaded by the inevitable realization that I'm just not going to get the thing I want most out of the game, and I drop it.

 

i'm messed up i guess but i just got into this game like no other ever.

Edited February 26, 2006 by thelastusernamenotalreadytaken

[Dyan]

It doesn't matter whether you believe Kreia is right or not - there is no way Obsidian could have allowed the force to die by the player siding with Kreia. Lucas Arts & GL never would have stood for it, even if they deemed such a thing was possible.

 

That said...

 

Personally I like Kreia. She's a tad misguided, but *shrug* so are all the Jedi in the game. The Sith too. That doesn't mean I agree with her. Granted, she has some interesting points and interesting views, but I don't have to agree with them to respect her views.

[Jediphile]

Another thing that bugs me is that in RPG games, the dialogue is always written for you.  I think it'd be nicer if it just said /what/ you say, not /how/ you say it.  but i guess that's digressing kindof but that's bugged me and i just wanted to say it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The thing about that is that the programmers can only write for the outcomes they can anticipate, so we're pretty much stuck there. This was true even in the old text-based adventures, where you could type in anything you wanted to [jediphile closes his eyes and remembers the golden days of adventuring fondly ].

 

Anyway, they could allow you to type in whatever, but the game would still have to interpret your answers and try to fit it onto one of the available outcomes. Multiple choice seems to be lesser evil among the alternatives. This will not change until we all have advanced neural networks in our computers that can judge the individual situation. It is also one area where tabletop RPGs are still vastly superior to CRPGs, because you can take absolutely any action you can think of - the GM is right there to decide what happens next (though you rarely like his choice, but there you go...)

 

so anyhow, don't get me wrong, I love Kreia -- and yeah, I guess I dislike what Obsidian did/didn't do, not Kreia herself...the whole point is that I dug the character /so/ much and then just didn't have the choice to go her way, really, at any point in the game.  I've replayed the thing SO many times, hoping against hope that, well, maybe if I do /everything/ in my power to keep my influence with her high (and I used cheat codes too, out of desperation!), /maybe/ a new dialogue tree will open /somewhere/, and it just never did omg :|  I've thought about restarting the game several times since, but I'm always dissuaded by the inevitable realization that I'm just not going to get the thing I want most out of the game, and I drop it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I guess the thing that Kreia doesn't want you to submit to her will - she wants you to learn and consider her points. She also wants you to kill her, and she doesn't leave you any choice in the matter...

[thelastusernamenotalreadytaken]

One needn't successfully "kill the force" to just effectively "go with" her /logic/, and naturally in so doing yeah you'd have to kill her. I mean, even if your character fully intended to "kill the force", the game would end no differently - you'd be killing Kreia as part of her final lesson...and beyond that, well, that's the next game in the series, isn't it?, not KOTOR2.

 

And that's not what I meant at all about dialogue.

I mean, instead of it saying for your choices:

 

1. Hello! I would like a glass of bacta-beer.

2. Gimme a bacta-beer, or I'll punch you.

3. My head is full of tasty cakes.

 

It would be:

 

1. Politely request a bacta-beer.

2. Threateningly demand a bacta-beer.

3. Speak nonsense.

 

 

just cuz sometimes i think "huh, none of these sound like good things to say, guess i'll just choose based upon logical effect"

[Tigranes]

And what is the ultimate point of such a distinction? Because evne in the latter form, I wouldn't, say, be able to say

 

4. Imply that a delivery of bacta beer to your person would be fantastic.

5. Declare that the bacta beer tastes like crap.

6. Request two bacta beers.

 

And I think that is really what you want: it doesn't matter if it's "I agree, Kreia" or "Character agrees with kreia", you want it to be there. This can only happen when the developers code for it, too. So the same limitations.

 

Now I'll leave before somebody brings up Morrowind.

[thelastusernamenotalreadytaken]

...

huh

um whatever! if you get my point you get it, if you don't you don't, I didn't come here to debate all my complaints even if that's seemingly what everyone wants to do. :-o

 

the point is just that if it were letting me choose WHAT i'm saying but not limited me to PRECISE DIALOGUE, i would never go "huh, that's a stupid way to say that, but whatever that's the only logical thing for what I want".

[SSgtSniper]

I see what he's saying, although it'd only work on PC.

 

He'd select option 1, and then type it in the way he wanted it to actually be said.

1.Politely Request a Bacta Beer

"Hey Bartender, a round of Bacta Beer and keep the change!" While he tosses the barkeep a hundred credits....

 

 

I gotta say, his idea is interesting, but ultimately, it'd annoy the piss out of me. Just give me some stuff to choose, and let me go on.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

People seem to like the dialogue. Even though it can only be approximate to what tone your character may use.

 

It's even more apparent in a fantasy game where all the races speak the same , except for a few race specific dialogue choices.

 

Morrowind uses a sort of intention driven system where you select intent rather than a specific dialogue option.

Edited February 27, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Canaan Aphettu]

Well, if there was no Sith or Jedi, then gangs and hutts and other crap would take their shot at galaxy-wide domination... With no Jedi to stand in their way.

 

(not to mention, the Death of the Force would have killed anything that heard it, since not all were as strong as the Exile and would have been able to save themselves from it)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just realised that my post contained many, many spoilers, so here it is in black, for those who wish to avoid it:

 

The Exile only survived being cut-off from the Force because it was self imposed - to shield the Exile from the pain of Malachor.

 

Kreia, who was forcibly cut off from the Force by the Jedi, survived because it was the Jedi's will to keep her breathing. This was a punishment, not an execution.

 

 

But had Kreia succeded in destroying the Force (which I don't think is possible anyway), all life would have died. As Qui Gon says "Without the Force, we could not exist". Even while the Exile and Kreia were cut off from the Force, they still existed within the Unifying Force - the overall reach of it. This is discussed in great detail in the last New Jedi Order book, aptly named "The Unifying Force", which features an entire species that has been cut off from the Force - I strongly suggest you read it.

[Gabrielle]

Kinda hard to read your dark text on a dark background.

[SSgtSniper]

One thing: Kriea was cut off by the Sith, not the Jedi.

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[Jediphile]

One thing: Kriea was cut off by the Sith, not the Jedi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Was she, though? I just got the impression that they kicked her, not that she had lost her force powers...

[SSgtSniper]

Okay, move this one to spoilers.

 

Kriea- "There are techniques withing the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast out. Stripped of my power. Exiled. I suffered indignities. And fell into darkness."

 

This is the dialogue she is saying while the video of Sion beating the snot out of her is playing. In the video, Nihilus does something to her, and she is no longer able to grab her lightsaber with the force, remember? Then Sion beats the crap out of her.

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[Jediphile]

Okay, move this one to spoilers.

 

Kriea- "There are techniques withing the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast out. Stripped of my power. Exiled. I suffered indignities. And fell into darkness."

 

This is the dialogue she is saying while the video of Sion beating the snot out of her is playing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Yes, I know, but I took "stripped of power" to simply mean that she lost her authority as the dark lord (lady?) and was thrown out of the order...

 

 

 

Well, maybe I was wrong...

[SSgtSniper]

Suffered indignities is the one that kinda says 'Sith'. And how in the heck do you do that black over the words? Because I don't know how for the life of me.

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[BattleCookiee]

Sion, Traya, and Nihilus, all were drawn to its surface after the destruction of Malachor V. Each learned a different technique of what the academy had to offer.From the teachings of the Trayus Academy, Sion learned pain, Nihilus learned hunger, and Traya learned betrayal... and then was betrayed in turn. Traya used her skills at manipulation to assume domination of the other Sith Lords. She wished to study Malachor V and the echoes it was causing in the Force. Unwilling to wait to do battle with the Jedi, Sion and Nihilus turned on Traya and began their shadow war against the Jedi.

Edited February 27, 2006 by BattleCookiee

[Jediphile]

And how in the heck do you do that black over the words? Because I don't know how for the life of me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just put the word "spoiler" in brackets ("[]") when you want to begin and "/spoiler" in brackets when you want it to end.

[Karimi]

I liked Kreia but I felt like I was constantly trying to get her approval, you just can't please her. Save a family , she calls you weak and spineless. If you kill them all she calls you merciless and brutal to the point of incompetence.