Do you consider video games as art?

[Joseph Bulock]

Yep. Games are art. Look at all those people at E3 or the other gaming expos. They're like museum openings where all the artists show off their newest creations. The gamers can appreciate the art the devs make by playing it, but playing the game is not an art.

 

Now, a modder, that's somebody who's got the tools of the trade, but they're aren't a pro. But that's why modding is such a big step - it lets the masses create their own art.

 

E3 is a trade show. Vendors show their wares, and attempt to generate interest in their product. I would love for it to be more of a "film festival" type experience, but the industry just isn't there yet.

 

I'll pose these questions. Are two drunkards fighting in an alley performance artists? Is Pro Wrestling art? Are professional sporting events art? Is news coverage of a battlefield art?

 

Of course the counter to these is: Is a movie about any of those things art? Is it art just by virtue of being a movie, or does it have to do something particular?

 

Which side of the fence does a game that attempts to create an interactive cinematic experience of any of these events fall on? Once again, is it art because it existed, or is it art because it did something artfully?

 

 

And finally, just to be pretentious, it has been argued that art cannot exist in the commercial realm. Once art becomes commodity, it looses the "essence" of art. How does this effect video games, which never have an original, which are instead, only designed for mass consumption?

[Shadowstrider]

I'll pose these questions.  Are two drunkards fighting in an alley performance artists?

No.

Is Pro Wrestling art?

Yes. Since pro wrestling is scripted it could be considered art. Someone has to come up with creative concepts behind the storylines. Wrestlers are really nothing but buff actors. Yes, the action is real, but the outcome and storylines are scripted by a writer.

Are professional sporting events art?

No.

Is news coverage of a battlefield art?

No.

 

Of course the counter to these is: Is a movie about any of those things art?

Edit: Yes, if it is an original piece. (sorry I didn't explain). If it is based entirely on factual history then no.

 

Is it art just by virtue of being a movie, or does it have to do something particular?

 

It just has to be creative, rather than based on reality. I wouldn't call a biography of Rowdy Roddy Piper art, because it would tell the tale of his real life. If it told the tale of his wrestling saga, then yes.

 

I guess I am saying fiction = art.

 

And finally, just to be pretentious, it has been argued that art cannot exist in the commercial realm.  Once art becomes commodity, it looses the "essence" of art.  How does this effect video games, which never have an original, which are instead, only designed for mass consumption?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I disagree with this assesment. Commercializing something doesn't make it any less art, it just makes someone a good salesmen.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Shadowstrider

[alanschu]

What is art?

[Joseph Bulock]

What is art?

 

Exactly.

[kirottu]

What is art?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Art is something that costs $10 000 and looks like something your 3 year old nephew could have done with adhesive tape.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

There is art in videogames, but that doesn't necessarily make them art.

[Lancer]

I believe that exceptional and complex story-based RPGs such as Torment and Xenogears can be judged, critiqued and debated for themes, morals, and lessons like any good classic work of literature (Iliad, The Odyssey, Shakespeare..etc). And thusly, can be held to those same standards.

 

Defined in this sense and if one considers literature to be a form of art, then yes, some video and computer games merit being considered art.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Lancer

[LoneWolf16]

I consider a video game to be more of an "art" than those damned "paintings" where the "painter" placed a dot in the center of a canvas and still somehow sells it for thousands of dollars.

[alanschu]

My question was serious...

 

What is art?

 

And if some computer games are considered art, why aren't others?

[Lancer]

My question was serious...

 

What is art?

 

And if some computer games are considered art, why aren't others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I just googled this but I believe this is as good a definition as any:

 

Art is "the product of human creativity"

[alanschu]

Ok then, I guess what is creativity?

 

Otherwise, you could probably make a case that all video games are art.

[Lancer]

Ok then, I guess what is creativity?

 

Otherwise, you could probably make a case that all video games are art.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

As someone stated earlier, video game-making is an art in and of itself since it entails creativity..From this sense, then yes all video games may be considered art in a very braod sense.

 

 

From a more specific "literature" (which is a form of art) standpoint, however, only some games may be worthy of this distinction.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

So are we really trying to determine if video games are a similar art style as literature?

[Lancer]

So are we really trying to determine if video games are a similar art style as literature?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think most people are talking about art from a broad, general perspective but I am just adding an extra consideration most haven't considered in this thread as of yet... And tying in certain works of art to literature...

 

From this point of view, RPGs with complex stories and themes are certainly as meritorious of being considered literature as Lord of the Rings or any classic movie.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Lancer

[Joseph Bulock]

From a more specific "literature"  (which is a form of art) standpoint, however, only some games may be worthy of this distinction.

 

 

That seems like a fairly narrow perspective to filter through to determine if games are art. There is a lot more to interactive media than their stories or dialogs. Much more time goes into their look, their gameplay experience than their story, and a case could be made of course for the importance of sound in many games as well. To look at only the literary nature of a game is like determining a film's value as art based only on the script.

[Lancer]

From a more specific "literature"  (which is a form of art) standpoint, however, only some games may be worthy of this distinction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That seems like a fairly narrow perspective to filter through to determine if games are art. There is a lot more to interactive media than their stories or dialogs. Much more time goes into their look, their gameplay experience than their story, and a case could be made of course for the importance of sound in many games as well. To look at only the literary nature of a game is like determining a film's value as art based only on the script.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am not saying that video games aren't "art." They all are.

 

All literature is art, but not all art is literature.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

I guess I'm going to have to step back as I'm kind of confused what this discussion is about.

[Darque]

I guess I'm going to have to step back as I'm kind of confused what this discussion is about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Stuffed animals and pizza

[Lancer]

And going to dictionary.com and googling the definition for "literature" this is what I get for the first two definitions:

 

 

 

1. The body of written works of a language, period, or culture.

2. Imaginative or creative writing, especially of recognized artistic value

 

The second definition is case in point coming from an "art" perspective.

[Lancer]

The short version:

 

1)All video games are art since they are the products of human creativity.

 

 

2) Literature is a specific sub-set or TYPE of art as it relates to "creative writing." Thus, only some art can be considered literature.

 

3) Literature can be defined as imaginative or "creative writing" especially of recognized artistic value

 

4) Although all video/computer games are works of art, only some can be specified as literature. This is because only SOME of them fufill the "imaginative/creative writing of recognized artistic value" requirement (i.e Torment, Xenogears..etc)

 

 

In summary, Baldur's Gate, Torment, Diablo, and Xenogears can all be considered works of art. But only Torment and Xenogears are BOTH works of art as well as good literature.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

I guess I'm still stuck on the first post where the OP said he feels video games are not art (yet).

 

I'm not really sure how literature came into the picture. Especially when he mentioned stuff like Thief and whatnot for not having static text segments or cutscenes.

Edited February 7, 2006 by alanschu

[Joseph Bulock]

The short version:

 

1)All video games are art since they are the products of human creativity.

 

 

2) Literature is a sub-set or TYPE of art and thus only some art can be considered literature.

 

3) Literature can be defined as imaginative or "creative writing" especially of recognized artistic value

 

4) Only some video/computer games (which are ALL works of art, BTW) can be considered literature. Because only SOME of them fufill the "imaginative/creative writing of recognized artistic value" requirement (i.e Torment, Xenogears..etc)

 

 

In summary, Baldur's Gate, Torment, Diablo, and Xenogears can all be considered works of art. But only Torment and Xenogears are BOTH works of art as well as good literature.

 

These definitions are as slippery as the Supreme Court's definition of pornography. They simply serve to promote one section of media over another, based upon the values of the manipulator of the definition.

[Lancer]

I guess I'm still stuck on the first post where the OP said he feels video games are not art (yet).

 

I don't understand this either. Video games are art.

 

I'm not really sure how literature came into the picture.  Especially when he mentioned stuff like Thief and whatnot for not having static text segments or cutscenes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought it was appropriate to the discussion since literature is a form of art. And this thread is about video/computer games and whether they are art or not.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Lancer

[Lancer]

The short version:

 

1)All video games are art since they are the products of human creativity.

 

 

2) Literature is a sub-set or TYPE of art and thus only some art can be considered literature.

 

3) Literature can be defined as imaginative or "creative writing" especially of recognized artistic value

 

4) Only some video/computer games (which are ALL works of art, BTW) can be considered literature. Because only SOME of them fufill the "imaginative/creative writing of recognized artistic value" requirement (i.e Torment, Xenogears..etc)

 

 

In summary, Baldur's Gate, Torment, Diablo, and Xenogears can all be considered works of art. But only Torment and Xenogears are BOTH works of art as well as good literature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

These definitions are as slippery as the Supreme Court's definition of pornography. They simply serve to promote one section of media over another, based upon the values of the manipulator of the definition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I very much agree in these definitions and I was not the original manipulator of these definitions. I feel they hit the nail on the head for our purposes.

 

I feel "art" and "literature" are a hell of a lot more straightforward to define than"roleplaying game" or "cyberpunk.". Talk about a headache :">

Edited February 7, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

Though there is that "recognized artistic value."

 

Based on who's recognition?