Haitoku Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Okay, power gamers how does thisa sound. Lets start the PC at 20th level. That way you don't have to worry about taking the time to level while playing and make every critter that fights you an uber weak dragon with loads and loads of PHAT LEWT! Make it into a single dungeon that every door is unlocked and un trapped where the dragon and its huge ass hoarde lies behind it. OH YEAH! Be an uber godling with the power to smite down dragons with one hit! ROLEPLAYING AT ITS BEST! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay, pretentious PnP players... how does this sound. Your make it to the final dungeon, you've just hit level 20 and are cursing at your monitor because you are "God" like now. You walk into the final dungeon and begin to battle ... You get your ass kicked because the monsters are in fact, as tough or tougher then you. You see, because level 20 in this game, is different from level 20 in a PnP game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Level 20 in DnD is level 20 in DnD. And considering that a level 12-15 character can take out a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in NWN I don't think that scenerio that you gave is going to happen. Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haitoku Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Level 20 in DnD is level 20 in DnD. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What does it matter though, even if you are at level 99 and the the game is still hard? Your getting completely bent out of shape over a number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 It is the rules of the game, Haitoku. You simply have no freaking concept do you? I have ran d20 System campaigns before even 3e was officially releqased. You just have no concept of just how powerful a level 20 character is do you?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haitoku Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 It is the rules of the game, Haitoku. You simply have no freaking concept do you? I have ran d20 System campaigns before even 3e was officially releqased. You just have no concept of just how powerful a level 20 character is do you?!?!? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, apparently I don't see it in the same way as you do. The way you describe it, your characters will be far too powerful by the end of the game. He or she will be able to destroy any fiend in a single blow and that will ruin any kind of challenge the game has. If that was the case, yes I could care and I would agree that the game is incredibly unbalanced. However, what I figure is... You hit level 20+, yet the monsters are still hard. You still need to enhance your skills in order to get stuff done because the game is still difficult at that level. If that is the case, you really are just bitching about a number and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Thing is you shouldn't be going against fiends and great wyrm dragons in just 30 hours of game time. You should be facing an Orc barbarian cheiften who has 4 levels of Fighter and 4 levels of Barbarian and his underlings. Going from level 1 to level 20 should take decades in game time. Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haitoku Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Thing is you shouldn't be going against fiends and great wyrm dragons in just 30 hours of game time. You should be facing an Orc barbarian cheiften who has 4 levels of Fighter and 4 levels of Barbarian and his underlings. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ... Okay, I give up. Live by your rules, the rest of us will enjoy a (hopefully) good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) We obviously have different standards of what good gaming is. Maybe someday you will have a decent DM that will show you. Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Maybe someday you will have a decent DM that will show you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As you're a killer GM I find this statement amusing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I don't kill the characters of my players unless they do something horrendously stupid, like being a 1st level wizard waking up a 20 HD house mimic while being in its stomach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 A good GM wouldn't have let that happen. Your job is to make sure the players have fun. Fail'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) I create the game world and I let the players go where they want. That wizard wanted to go to the tower. The local PCs said it was a bad bad place to go and went on to the mission they were hired to do. If a player wants to do something like that I will not say no, but he better be ready to deal with the consequences. I have never had a complaint from my players on my DMing style and they all seem to have fun. Sometimes the luck of the die roll does save them. Sometimes I give them clues like a kobold named Killit Kwik who they let keep its wand of fireballs. When Neverwinter Nights 2 is released I am thinking that I should recreate that adventure area. *tee hee* Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Well, players have a right to expect Obs to allow them to confront dragons or other epic creatures when they're low-level. I mean, they're the consumers, how dare Obs try to impose silly conventions such as actual DnD gameplay? Players should not expect to stay alive, though. That was the failing of Bioware. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Exactly, L-man. There should have been no way in hell my lone halfling 15th level rogue monk should have taken out Klauth. Klauth should have killed me with ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyCrimson Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 *skims thru the thread really fast* I don't have a problem with a system that gives levels at a rapid pace, as long as the game doesn't become easy to defeat at any point, no matter how many hours you spend fishing or hoarding gold or plunging dungeons to gain levels. I don't include "action-RPG's" when I say that, because that genre is, of course, power-gaming/short attention span oriented, for when you just want vicarious no-thinking mashing fun. A more 'serious' RPG should be balanced so the character/equipment never outstrips the quests/monsters/new areas, but because there's so many notions of what too-easy entails, combined with trying to make a game not feel too linear (freedom of exploration), blah blah, it's difficult to implement to majority satisfaction...and thus they too also usually fail to have the balance, always falling back to the 'more power' mentality. Even stuff like BG1 with its comparitively low level cap, half way through the game the fights were too easy simply because they made arrow attacks too powerful (whatever the cause) and I blew throgh the 2nd half of the game combat-wise with my eyes almost closed primarly because of that. They were still very fun games tho, with other aspects to keep you entertained...just not balanced combat-wise. People can complain that Kotor2 is too easy combat wise, and it is, but IMO, so are most 'serious' RPG's. Just because you have to configure your party classes & pause the game more often mid-battle to give commands etc. doesn't make it harder - it just makes it more time-consuming. Personally, I think it's just a flaw in the whole mentality of needing to be awarded 'skill points' as you level to gain/pick your powers. I don't think it works all that well in a computer game envrionment. I like RPG's that aren't level based at all - you never 'level up' and your strength/health stays the same etc. - and award you powers/abilities for quests or just as expensive purchases from stores and such...I've played a few like that but can't think of their names at the moment cause unfortunately, they weren't memorable/good games beyond the chr. system... :D Sorry, I've been long-winded lately.... " “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 My take on it is leveling up lets the developers show off what skills/feats/spells there are and gives players chances to use them and feel a sense of satisfaction when they use it to accomplish something. If the campaign-time is limited, they've got to speed things up. That's probably what the whole deal about finding enjoyment in lower levels is - making use of what meagre resources you have to accomplish lots of things (related to long time spent playing). When levels get high, players may not be as pressed to get as much use out of their resources (spells, potions, weapons etc) as they were earlier. Say a d8 potion of healing might have lasted a low level party for a dungeon whereas a high level priest can easily Heal with no problem, meaning the healing potion has less "value". That might be the reason people feel diminishing enjoyment from the basic things that had more value when they were at lower levels. Like I said 30 to 40 hours in length doesn't bother me. Its the end level of my character that I am concerned with. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nobody's forcing you to hit the Level Up button. Level 20 in DnD is level 20 in DnD. And considering that a level 12-15 character can take out a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in NWN I don't think that scenerio that you gave is going to happen. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Didn't you just say NWN1 is irrelevant to NWN2? So what if I bought Neverwinter Nights twice? What does this discussion of Neverwinter Nights 2 have anything to do with Neverwinter Nights 1? So what if I prefer a single DVD that has the game with both expansions than have 5 discs which I gave to a friend of mine? Bringing up Neverwinter Nights 1 is irrelevant to this discussion and since you brought it up this irrelevancy, you lose. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Anyway I look forward to seeing what kind of modules you put out once the toolset's out. I'll be expecting lvl 5 adventurers stabbing each other with rusty sporks (that they had to earn) after 30 hours of gaming. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr insomniac Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Has there been any word on what the expected average level will be at the end of the single-player game? For example, I seem to remember something like this for IWD2, where someone stated a full party of 6 characters could expect to be around 15th to 17th level by the end of the game on normal difficulty. Maybe I'm wrong, it was quite awhile ago. But I do remember my party was right around that. What I'm saying is, no point in getting all bent out of shape about being a level 20 uber-whatever 30 minutes into the game if it's not gonna happen.... right? I took this job because I thought you were just a legend. Just a story. A story to scare little kids. But you're the real deal. The demon who dares to challenge God. So what the hell do you want? Don't seem to me like you're out to make this stinkin' world a better place. Why you gotta kill all my men? Why you gotta kill me? Nothing personal. It's just revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 If they want to "show off" then let them make a tech demo of the game and the various abilities which the character can gain. I am here to game, not to be showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Hopefully, IWD would be a (relatively) good indicator of what the party level would be by the end of the game (eg. not maxxing out). I think my party of 6 finished in the lower teens, but the cap was about 5 levels above. It'd be nice to not, like, cap by the end of the campaign. Heck, make official modules post-release catering to higher-level characters, for those who want to bring their characters into more adventurers. Personally, I'd like it if the campaign brought me to the lower teens (anything lower would probably not be likely). Perhaps the first xpac would bring the char to the higher teens, and a second xpac would introduce epic levels (which would eventually probably find their way in the game, whether you're fond of them or not). (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Oh, Just not leveling up your character is not an option. That is metagaming and I do not metagame. If I have to metagame to correct the problems I see then the game is of poor design. Metagaming is bad, m'kay. I rather see this first part bring the party no higher than 8th, first expansion be in the low tends, second expansion, high teens, with a third optional expansion focusing only on epic matieral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Wow what a dumb 'option'. You do know FR is a high-level campaign setting? Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Level 20 in DnD is level 20 in DnD. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right, because CRPGs have always mirrored the PnP experience On the plus side, given your indication of WotC levelling guidelines, sounds like Obsidian is likely being conservative. Your strict adherence to the rules is your failing. Funny thing is that you cite Baldur's Gate as a game that did a good job. What? No complaining about a hardcap in the game? Last I checked AD&D didn't have a hard cap of 89k experience Edited January 12, 2006 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Oh, Just not leveling up your character is not an option. That is metagaming and I do not metagame. If I have to metagame to correct the problems I see then the game is of poor design. Metagaming is bad, m'kay. I rather see this first part bring the party no higher than 8th, first expansion be in the low tends, second expansion, high teens, with a third optional expansion focusing only on epic matieral. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's unrealistic to want. Troika tried the module thing... and Troika is dead now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 If Hades is to have alignment it would be Lawful Evil. Lawful for strictly following the rules, evil for being a partypooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Look hades if you like getting shtuped in the wallet, hey we all have ways of getting our kicks. I just think it's pretty lousy to roll back features in a sequel and that common sense says will be added anyway in an expansion pack. Let me see a show of hands of players that only play low-level campaigns, and also play as wizards, and can't see the problem with that in a crpg? Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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