Shooting for 30 hours?

[Spider]

That's unrealistic to want.

 

Troika tried the module thing... and Troika is dead now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, cause the slow level progression in Baldur's Gate really hurt Bioware... Troika didn't die because you only hit level 10 in ToEE, in fact I think that was one of the better parts of that game.

 

So yeah, I'm with Hades on this. I'm not a great fan of gaining levels everytime I turn around either.

 

My reason for this is because I want gaining levels to be something special. I love the feeling you get when you play a game for hours and hours and then suddenly there is that level you've been waiting for. I also like the option of playing the same character through expansions or sequels. Yes, exactly like Baldur's Gate.

 

The BG series simply worked very well for me. I had my character that I got to keep playing through four campaigns and when I hit the epic levels in the end I liked it because I felt that I deserved it.

 

I'm not saying I think every game should have a slow level progression, but I don't think every game should reach epic levels either. There is room for both, only right now there are many more high level games out there. The only low level game released in recent years was ToEE and that was crap (but again, not due to the low level cap).

[Darque]

That's unrealistic to want.

 

Troika tried the module thing... and Troika is dead now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, cause the slow level progression in Baldur's Gate really hurt Bioware... Troika didn't die because you only hit level 10 in ToEE, in fact I think that was one of the better parts of that game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1) Baldur's gate's progression was pretty quick

 

2) Your ability to detect sarcasm is nothing short of amazing

[Spider]

1) Baldur's gate's progression was pretty quick

 

2) Your ability to detect sarcasm is nothing short of amazing

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Detecting sarcasm is a tricky thing to do when it's just written words. So sorry for missing that.

 

And the level progression in BG was anything but quick. I think it took me something like 60 hours to complete (it's been a long time) and throughout that my character gained something like 8 levels.

 

Add another 20 or so hours for the expansion and 1-2 levels for that.

 

Unless you were being sarcastic again.

[aVENGER]

What the hell does writing dialogue have to do with programming??? Especially when it is done through a toolset?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A lot. For example, all those nifty skill/stat/class/race/alignment...etc. checks are done by scripts. In essence, they are fairly simple scripts but their results add up, and you can easily lose the oversight unless you are careful. FYI, I'm talking about stuff like setting GLOBAL and LOCAL quest and dialogue variables in the infinity engine games. Also, it takes some pretty complex AI scripts to create proper NPC (companion) interactions like those seen in BG2 and PST. Granted, I'm not that familiar with the NWN system, but it should be quite similar from what I've heard.

 

On topic, personally I think that a game length of 30-40 hours might be ok because, for me, enjoying a cRPG primarily depends on the quality of its gameplay. As someone already mentioned, Fallout(1) was pretty short, but to this date it remains one of my favorite games of all times.

[Darque]

No worries

 

But.. as for BG... no, that wasn't sarcasm

 

At least not for me I advanced pretty quick

 

Of course that might be because I went with fewer party members at first (thus getting more XP across the board) so when I did fill up they already had some of their advancements

[mr insomniac]

And the level progression in BG was anything but quick. I think it took me something like 60 hours to complete (it's been a long time) and throughout that my character gained something like 8 levels.

 

Add another 20 or so hours for the expansion and 1-2 levels for that.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm, wasn't the level cap for BG, with TotSC, 8-9 (10 for a thief)? ... Also, kinda wondering how many of those 60 hours were spent tromping through (mostly) empty maps.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed BG as well, and I can't remember how many hours it took me to complete. It was quite a few, cuz I tromped through all those empty areas myself.

[mr insomniac]

Arkan, roleplaying takes TIME. Youve got to think, roleplay and make decisions. I dont see how you can have much meaningful roleplaying in a short game. A short game is an easy graphics packed dungeon romp, not an intricate roleplaying experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dunno, You can take all the time you like thinking of how you're gonna roleplay a given in-game situation... for that we have a pause button. But you're given choices right? You pick the choice that most closely matches your roleplaying preference. Taking the time to choose is real-time, though, not game-time... if you follow me, and so not included specifically in the "30-40 hours".

 

Also, for Arkan: I think, going from that quote, perhaps the role-playing bit can come under plot-twisting and dungeon-romping?

[kirottu]

Each and every single character level has to be and feel likeit was earned through sweat and blood of the character.  None of the free level crap that has been in the NWN 1 and expansions along with kotOR 1 and KotOR 2.

 

When I played through KotOR 2 I felt like I didn't earn a single level.  I felt it was just given to me as a freebie.  I guess I am in the minority on that.  FREE LEVELS FOR EVERYONE! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It

[CoM_Solaufein]

Strange thing about Baldur's Gate leveling out at around 8-9 is the mages have the ability to memorize level 9 spells and priests level 7. That's why us modders made level cap removers.

[Judge Hades]

Did I say that I wanted the NWN 2 as a whole be limited to 8th level, no. I just wanted the OC to be maxed out at 8th level.

 

I just don't want to see epic levels in the game period, but it will be put in there eventually I am sure.

 

Oh Kirottu, these people don't want to earn their experience and levels. That should be obvious.

[kirottu]

Oh Kirottu, these people don't want to earn their experience and levels.  That should be obvious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well Hades, I disagree.

[Judge Hades]

I guess I am the only one here that knows good and bad DMing when he sees it. Fine, be the ubermunchkins oiwer lamers if you want. Its what sels by the looks of NWN 1 and the KotORs.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think they need to revise the design doc and take a few lessons from japanese game designers.

I wish I had the design doc for Final Fantasy VII so I could learn the exact formula required to make 40% of the gameplay hours consist of random encounters and summon effects.

[Musopticon?]

Well, FF7 was too long, so...

 

 

 

Oh, and just show how much I think of this thread:

 

WAAH WAAH WAAH, MOAN MOAN, WHINE!

[J.E. Sawyer]

I thought IWD2 was a little too long, as well. It was a reaction to criticism about HoW. If we had cut a few maps from that game and made the rest of the game better, I think the end result would have been superior.

[Musopticon?]

Yeah, the whole Dragon Eye-bit was overlong and the game really was dragging when I did Ice Temple for the first time.

 

Still my favorite hack by far.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Musopticon?

[Judge Hades]

I liked IWD 2. It was a good challenge, though game length isn't the issue for me. It is the leveling. Will it be free levels for everyone like NWN 1 and both KotORs were or are we oing to have a proper level pacing?

Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Musopticon?]

Omigosh, Hades is angreh!

[Judge Hades]

No, but this is an important issue for me. Nothing kills a game for me like rapid level advancement.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades

[alanschu]

1) Baldur's gate's progression was pretty quick

 

2) Your ability to detect sarcasm is nothing short of amazing

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Detecting sarcasm is a tricky thing to do when it's just written words. So sorry for missing that.

 

And the level progression in BG was anything but quick. I think it took me something like 60 hours to complete (it's been a long time) and throughout that my character gained something like 8 levels.

 

Add another 20 or so hours for the expansion and 1-2 levels for that.

 

Unless you were being sarcastic again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except that I found that I hit the level cap long before I hit the endgame. It's easy to be a low level campaign when you artificially restrict the player. Odd that Hades doesn't seem to mind that bending of the rules though.

 

But they broke it with BG2, and especially TOB, when levels started getting handed out (and phat lewt) like they were going out of style.

[alanschu]

What the hell does writing dialogue have to do with programming??? Especially when it is done through a toolset?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think this sums up your understanding pretty well. If you don't know, try creating some modules with the toolset.

 

You'll find out how easy it is to break stuff once you have a few hundred scripts trying to relate your dialogue together in a coherent fashion. Furthermore, trying to create FIFTEEN HOURS worth of this stuff is enormous. I can spend well over an hour in the toolset myself making a pretty neat dialogue tree that lasts about 20 seconds for the user while playing.

 

It becomes worse as you incorporate non-linearity. Not only do I add RP options for Class 1, but Class 2,3,4,5 etc. So if you want 15 hours of RP fluff, then the branching factor begins to explode the work that has to be done exponentially.

[alanschu]

I guess I am the only one here that knows good and bad DMing when he sees it.  Fine, be the ubermunchkins oiwer lamers if you want.  Its what sels by the looks of NWN 1 and the KotORs. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hahaha, what an elitist.

 

Maybe it's you that's the bad DM. Sounds like you're the one that enjoys axing your players anyways

[Judge Hades]

If you soloed BG1 yeah, it is easy to reach the cap and if you solo NWN 2 OC then you should reach higher levels than if you had a party. I am not saying to cap the game at 8th level. They should cap the game at 20th, but design the Official Campaign that if you are going to have a full party then you should end the OC somewhere between 6th to 8th level.

[alanschu]

If you soloed BG1 yeah, it is easy to reach the cap and if you solo NWN 2 OC then you should reach higher levels than if you had a party.  I am not saying to cap the game at 8th level.  They should cap the game at 20th, but design the Official Campaign that if you are going to have a full party then you should end the OC somewhere between 6th to 8th level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah, but I did solo NWN. I'm pretty sure most people came pretty close as well.

 

The funny thing is, when I played the game with my roommate, we finished the game around level 15 instead.

[Judge Hades]

Hahaha, what an elitist.

 

Maybe it's you that's the bad DM.  Sounds like you're the one that enjoys axing your players anyways

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gee, share the couple of times in which one kills a player character and you get labeled a Killer DM that enjoys killing PCs.

 

Whatever, beleive what you want.