Making you feel like you're there

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The player characters in the Resident Evil series begin to hold themselves and walk when they are wounded. There are visual cues to the characters' health during gameplay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I known; they're pretty much secondary visual aides when it comes to determining character health. These type of animations usually have quite a number of supporters when it comes to pushing for more intuitive, fluid game experiences, and feedback.

[BattleCookiee]

Beats me. Then again I didn't suggest removing them from the game.

 

Indeed. You try to hide them behind a button, to do exactly what. A meter attached to your hart giving HP that way? What is different between an fixed number "magically" giving your health, than an little item that "magically" does the same thing, but only when asked, except method 2 makes it harder to determine ingame wheter you need to keep fighting or make a run for it...

 

Hell, the fact there ARE healthbars is already "not immersive" according to you. How "immersive" can it be to take 2+ bullets without dying?

 

What is more of an immersion breaker, numbers popping out of a character's head to indicate his health loss or something which takes one button and one second to use and doesn't remind you as much you're playing a game?

 

Rather know it right away and base on that then having to call it, and die prematurely due to 'wrong guess' or waste packs because I thought I was hurt more than I was...

 

The player characters in the Resident Evil series begin to hold themselves and walk when they are wounded. There are visual cues to the characters' health during gameplay.

 

Tell me how to do this with a First Person mode? Quite unhandy no? And with RE it can because there is just bite 1, bite 2, bite 3, dead "health lvl" and not a lvl based on a number of 100 and damage depending on weapon, distance, destination and that kind of fun stuff...

[Nartwak]

Tell me how to do this with a First Person mode? Quite unhandy no?

Yes, it is. I suppose there are many of ways one could represent damage in a similar manner; various visual cues such as colours washing out, a dimming screen, incrementally reddening screen and audio cues such as the character's heartbeat, pulse, and breath. (Actually I believe I've seen some of these elements implemented in a number of FPSs as secondary aides to a life guage.)

 

I'm not sure more visceral interfaces are necessarily better though. Like you were saying, indefinite guages are problematic.

Edited January 9, 2006 by Nartwak

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Indeed. You try to hide them behind a button, to do exactly what.

 

"Hide behind a button"? This makes it seem suggesting the game giving information based on key pressing is not only evil, it was never done before. Lollerskates. If it sounds terribly frightening to press a button, you could always attach a counter to most weapons and therefore consult them just by looking at the weapon.

 

A meter attached to your hart giving HP that way? What is different between an fixed number "magically" giving your health, than an little item that "magically" does the same thing, but only when asked,

 

If you haven't been following the thread, I'm not sure you'll get it by now. In any case I'll try to make it brief. For starters, an item is not "magically" doing the same thing, there's a context and explanation in the very game for it to work; it isn't working "just because".

 

Also, the difference is that one (hovering health bar/ammo counter/etc) is a clearly intrusive interface device which risks breaking immersion; the other (is an acceptable way of simultaneously giving players the ability to gauge important information without having to be forced to deal with a cumbersome interface.

 

except method 2 makes it harder to determine ingame wheter you need to keep fighting or make a run for it...

 

Having to press a button to manually reload an empty weapon instead of having it reload automatically is also hard, but it doesn't mean it's not manageable.

 

Hell, the fact there ARE healthbars is already "not immersive" according to you. How "immersive" can it be to take 2+ bullets without dying?

 

Once again, reality != immersion.

 

Rather know it right away and base on that then having to call it, and die prematurely due to 'wrong guess' or waste packs because I thought I was hurt more than I was...

 

And how could you make a wrong guess if the way to represent health is the same as ever, only presented in a different way? No one is taking away your ability to see character health, just as no one is suggesting the information should become less accurate (which you'd have noticed if you had read what I wrote previously).

[Joseph Bulock]

One thing to consider is that the idea of Hit points themselves are fairly detrimental to the immersive quality of a game. I'm personally a fan of the (very few) games that did away with them, and tried different damage systems entirely. While it had its problems, the Bushido Blade series did some fun things without HP and health bars.

 

I only point this out because right now so many of the attempts at immersion are very superficial. Yes your characters might limp in Resident Evil 4, but they don't have problems firing their guns when their hurt, they don't fun faster at full health, etc. Basically, I don't have to worry about my health except to make sure I don't die, and to me, thats not immersive.

[BattleCookiee]

"Hide behind a button"? This makes it seem suggesting the game giving information based on key pressing is not only evil, it was never done before. Lollerskates. If it sounds terribly frightening to press a button, you could always attach a counter to most weapons and therefore consult them just by looking at the weapon.

 

If you have to press a button EACH time to get Critical Information (like health/ammo is, you need to check it up often) that can get pretty annoying and takes away from the game('s immersion). Think Serious Sam/Doom/Quake/Painkiller type of game where you have to press that little button every 6 seconds because of waves and waves of enemies. Bugging alot more than a fixed health meter? Damn well it does. Or think an online game like UT2004. How easy would it be to in combat put your weapon away and check health while shot at. Free Kill for the opposition...

And ammo on weapons can be ok, but in most games this cause the weapons to look futuristic and ugly. I rather have a ammo bar spoil my immersion than an damn ugly gun I hold in my hand throughout the game...

 

If you haven't been following the thread, I'm not sure you'll get it by now. In any case I'll try to make it brief. For starters, an item is not "magically" doing the same thing, there's a context and explanation in the very game for it to work; it isn't working "just because".

 

There is a reason to it? If you have such a thing in a "roman empire" game or such, what kind of explenation could there be that does not ruin you thinking you really are in the ancient roman empire. This only works (like ammo on weapons) in futuristic games and games with "unrealistic gadgets". Now a gadget doesn't make me feel more immersed if there is a reason for it working than if there is no reason...

 

Also, the difference is that one (hovering health bar/ammo counter/etc) is a clearly intrusive interface device which risks breaking immersion; the other (is an acceptable way of simultaneously giving players the ability to gauge important information without having to be forced to deal with a cumbersome interface.

 

Maybe for you it is, but clearly I (and alot of other people) disagree with you whole-heartly. We do not wan't PRIMARY information locked behind a key/screen/option "because then there is an explenation to it being there". Really, what games do you play where Health/Ammo bars take up that much of your screen it totally turns you away from playing that game???

Your suggestion would mean for a more cumbersome interface than the Health/Ammo, that is for sure atleast. Button A for health, B for Ammo, C for points etc. while it can be always on-screen makes it "cumbersome"

 

Having to press a button to manually reload an empty weapon instead of having it reload automatically is also hard, but it doesn't mean it's not manageable.

 

Does Reloading has anything to do with information onscreen? Does reloading means weapon switch (you can no longer shoot; out of ammo) or a GAME OVER due to health problems?

Reload is like Weapon Switching, there is no need to have a list of every gun onscreen all the time, only when needed. But ammo/health is always important to know...

 

Once again, reality != immersion.

 

Then why try so hard to destroy ammo/health bars helping the immersion, but not the realism?

 

And how could you make a wrong guess if the way to represent health is the same as ever, only presented in a different way? No one is taking away your ability to see character health, just as no one is suggesting the information should become less accurate (which you'd have noticed if you had read what I wrote previously).

 

Posted on the same way as ever? Only different? Is it me, or do these 2 things cannot be combined into a single sentance like you do

Same as ever != different

Nobody takes away the abbility to see health, you only see it on times X (when calling it up) and thus can not always be used during when it can be needed (unless you can hold the mouse, move and hold several buttons on the same time)

[Nartwak]

One thing to consider is that the idea of Hit points themselves are fairly detrimental to the immersive quality of a game.  I'm personally a fan of the (very few) games that did away with them, and tried different damage systems entirely.  While it had its problems, the Bushido Blade series did some fun things without HP and health bars.

 

I only point this out because right now so many of the attempts at immersion are very superficial.  Yes your characters might limp in Resident Evil 4, but they don't have problems firing their guns when their hurt, they don't fun faster at full health, etc. Basically, I don't have to worry about my health except to make sure I don't die, and to me, thats not immersive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

botp

[Nick_i_am]

If you notice, interface, general gameplay conventions and the ocasional oddball designer decision are largely the main reasons why there is such immersion breaking in games, even in games most people claim to be immersive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I completely agree here, which is exactly why I didn't refer to Fallout as an immersive game, the HUD and contols kept constantly reminding me that I was playing it, not living it.

 

As far as your point about the information presented to the player, I completely agree, Black and White was very nice in this aspect, having very little information given to the player via a HUD, and was much better for it. To further the point, things like displaying the ammo a gun holds on the gun itself (both Unreal Torniment and Alien vs Preditor did this, though they were secondary to the HUD), and, failing to have somthing like a portible medical scanner that you have to manually pull out to find out your own health, having a visual representation of how your character is feeling (which is fair enough in most cases) rather than a number of bar could be good in many cases. Deus Ex represented its health on screen like this, with the different parts of your body coloured on their condition.

 

To use the example of Operation Flashpoint again, there is NO health bar, but your character does have one, represented in game numbers outside the players eye. If you take a hit and survive, lucky you, if you take hit to the arm, bai bai aim, if you take a hit to the leg, crawling mode!. It depends on the nature of the game, but neither a health or ammo bar is NEEDED just because it's an 'FPS' and the same goes for all types of game.

 

Another good example is in Day of Defeat Source, ammo is represented by the HUD, but instead of being a number, is simply a picture of the side of your clip, so you can see roughly how many bullets are left.

Edited January 9, 2006 by Nick_i_am

[Llyranor]

It is still possible to play crappy games using your own imagination, but why bother?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Morrowind!

[BattleCookiee]

As far as your point about the information presented to the player, I completely agree, Black and White was very nice in this aspect, having very little information given to the player via a HUD, and was much better for it.

 

First disagreement. First off all B&W has been utter crap on all lvls, worst waste of my money in my whole life.

Second there aren't a real lot of stats you should take care off. The people have their supplies, but why should you care what they do with it?

And the Power thing or whatever you got in the second map (that I even made it there is due to the patch, allowing to finish the first map right away) is not really a "primary need" either...

 

To further the point, things like displaying the ammo a gun holds on the gun itself (both Unreal Torniment and Alien vs Preditor did this, though they were secondary to the HUD)

 

I hope you meant to say AvP and Pariah. Anyways, like said; that only works with Futuristic ugly weapons...

 

and, failing to have somthing like a portible medical scanner that you have to manually pull out to find out your own health, having a visual representation of how your character is feeling (which is fair enough in most cases) rather than a number of bar could be good in many cases. Deus Ex represented its health on screen like this, with the different parts of your body coloured on their condition.

 

Well, but DX way was a permanent spot on the HUD, wasn't it? And that is why it is way better than an "called upon" health meter. How would you like it to get in a gunfight in DX and that little thingie in the top wasn't there to display where you got hit and how hard?

 

To use the example of Operation Flashpoint again, there is NO health bar, but your character does have one, represented in game numbers outside the players eye. If you take a hit and survive, lucky you, if you take hit to the arm, bai bai aim, if you take a hit to the leg, crawling mode!. It depends on the nature of the game, but neither a health or ammo bar is NEEDED just because it's an 'FPS' and the same goes for all types of game.

 

Hey, look. Rainbow Six also has no health number in the HUD. If you make it a one-shot kill it isn't needed anyways. But many games give the player an panzered skin...

And does OF has a ammo counter somewhere? I think it has...

 

Another good example is in Day of Defeat Source, ammo is represented by the HUD, but instead of being a number, is simply a picture of the side of your clip, so you can see roughly how many bullets are left.

 

How would that be different from the ammo counter? It seems Role-Player has a problem with the permanent spot on the HUD for ammo, and like this, there still is a permanent spot, even if the spot looks different (and takes up more size/longer to see when gun is empty, and thus more annoying for the player and less immersion in the game already)

Edited January 9, 2006 by Battlewookiee

[Llyranor]

I think some sort of temporary ammo/health bar could work re: immersion.

 

During a firefight, you're not going to be checking how much ammo you have left - that has to be done mentally, taking in how much ammo you had to start with, how many times you've shot, etc. Perhaps the ammo bar could show up once you're out of the firefight, to abstractly indicate that your character has the time to check it when s/he's not actively fighting.

 

Same with health. During a full-blown adrenaline rush, you might not be aware of all your injury, unless they incapacitate you. An exact health bar might not be the most immersive thing here. Perhaps, like the ammo bar, you could have it pop up when you're out of danger, indicating that your character has time to check his/her wounds. During battle, perhaps a system where the screen starts getting red, your heart starts pumping, etc, could indicate your status.

 

Perhaps, DURING battle, having those things show up would necessitate an additional action, meaning that they'd need to be actively sought out, rather than being free information.

Edited January 9, 2006 by Llyranor

[Nick_i_am]

First disagreement. First off all B&W has been utter crap

No disagreement there, but considering the information it COULD have been giving you (available spells, mana power, food and wood stocks, creature condition) it was a refreshing change

 

To use the example of Operation Flashpoint again, there is NO health bar, but your character does have one, represented in game numbers outside the players eye. If you take a hit and survive, lucky you, if you take hit to the arm, bai bai aim, if you take a hit to the leg, crawling mode!. It depends on the nature of the game, but neither a health or ammo bar is NEEDED just because it's an 'FPS' and the same goes for all types of game.

 

Hey, look. Rainbow Six also has no health number in the HUD. If you make it a one-shot kill it isn't needed anyways. But many games give the player an panzered skin...

And does OF has a ammo counter somewhere? I think it has...

yeah, same as OFP, though armour is way more of a factor in R6, and yeah, you could enable one in OFP, which would show your remaining bullets and clips, but you could also switch it off. Same with the crosshair. OFP can be played completely without ANY HuD.

 

How would that be different from the ammo counter?

 

How does a real soldier check his ammo? he either keeps rough count or hopes he doesn't run out before the baddie does, but failing that, he ejects his clip and looks at the holes in the side to see roughly how many shots he has left. DoDs is too actiony to facilitate either of the above with satisfaction, so a 'halfway' where the user has a HuD icon of roughly what they would see if they wanted to check the ammo on a real gun is one step closer.

 

On a game focused on realism or immersion, being able to flip your gun over and check the clip would be the most obvious solution to lack of an ammo count on the HUD as far as I can see. The only other thing I can think of was that used in the awful Jurrasic Park FPS 'Tresspasser' where the chick you played would scream the number of shots you had left each time you fired, before your gun got stuck on an object, fell out of your hand and got stuck somewhere under the terrain. Best Game Ever, but NO HuD.

[Calax]

going to point out that in DX your body was filled with nanites... it wouldn't be that hard to use the nanites to work and figure out exactly how well your body was doing, how much was in your gun, and all that sort of thing then project it onto your retna in a form you can understand.

[Joseph Bulock]

One thing to consider is that the idea of Hit points themselves are fairly detrimental to the immersive quality of a game.  I'm personally a fan of the (very few) games that did away with them, and tried different damage systems entirely.  While it had its problems, the Bushido Blade series did some fun things without HP and health bars.

 

I only point this out because right now so many of the attempts at immersion are very superficial.  Yes your characters might limp in Resident Evil 4, but they don't have problems firing their guns when their hurt, they don't fun faster at full health, etc. Basically, I don't have to worry about my health except to make sure I don't die, and to me, thats not immersive.

botp

 

Can I get a translator?

[Blaise Russel]

Also, the difference is that one (hovering health bar/ammo counter/etc) is a clearly intrusive interface device which risks breaking immersion

 

Not really, no.

 

 

 

Besides, immersion is independent of 'realism'. Consistency in the game and in the game universe creates immersion. The game giving you clear and direct information through the simplest of media does not, although faffing around with 'health readers' and other methods of distancing the player from the information that he needs to know immediately in order to be fully engrossed in the game - other ways of pulling him out of the action because he needs to check his health bar or ammo count... might break immersion.

 

An in-game justification for the structure of the game itself seems kind of pointless and in fact more likely to remind me that I'm playing a game, rather than acting in a story. Remember when

 

 

the Jedi Masters in KOTOR2 told you you became more powerful as you killed more people because you were leeching a little bit of Force from them? I don't know about you, but when they blew open the whole 'XP' thing, already a dodgily unrealistic system, and semi-broke the fourth wall by justifying a game mechanic with an in-game explanation, I cringed.

 

 

And at some point you're just going to fall over because there *isn't* an explanation for the game menu in the life and times of a Roman general and the closer you try to get to 'complete immersion', where you just can't be sure whether you're playing a computer game or not, the more likely it is you'll fall into the uncanny valley and turn a minor problem into a huge one.

 

Best to let the player do your work for you and filter the game mechanics and HUD and things out himself.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Think Serious Sam/Doom/Quake/Painkiller type of game where you have to press that little button every 6 seconds because of waves and waves of enemies. Bugging alot more than a fixed health meter? Damn well it does. Or think an online game like UT2004.

 

Or think about how my suggestion was for Metal Gear Solid, which is not a firstperson shooter and does not have the need for such a level of constant feedback as one. Or think about just how many times during intense gunfights players actually look at health gauges. Check out Llyranor's suggestions, they're pretty good.

 

There is a reason to it? If you have such a thing in a "roman empire" game or such, what kind of explenation could there be that does not ruin you thinking you really are in the ancient roman empire.

 

Progressive texture remapping of the model to display wounds, slowdown of movements, and loss of skill depending on character damage. To start with.

 

Maybe for you it is, but clearly I (and alot of other people) disagree with you whole-heartly.

 

I'll let them speak for themselves.

 

Your suggestion would mean for a more cumbersome interface than the Health/Ammo, that is for sure atleast.

 

Doubtful, since I'm suggesting nearly any interface to be visible at all. It can't be cumbersome if it's not there.

 

Does Reloading has anything to do with information onscreen?

 

Your point was that it was (supposedly) hard to do. I only presented another example of something which is also considered hard to do, but it's very manegeable. And both reloading a weapon and checking up on health during a firefight are very similar, to the extent the player has to perform two actions simultaneously.

 

But considering my suggesting involves the ability to keep seeing all the action and interacting while still checking health levels, I don't see how that's really a concern to begin with. It can be used once or toggled, much like a stealth mode, changing between running/walking modes, or doing a simple crouch.

 

Then why try so hard to destroy ammo/health bars helping the immersion, but not the realism?

 

I'm not trying to "destroy realism". Also, they are independant of each other.

 

And how could you make a wrong guess if the way to represent health is the same as ever, only presented in a different way? No one is taking away your ability to see character health, just as no one is suggesting the information should become less accurate (which you'd have noticed if you had read what I wrote previously).

 

Posted on the same way as ever? Only different? Is it me, or do these 2 things cannot be combined into a single sentance like you do

Same as ever != different

Nobody takes away the abbility to see health, you only see it on times X (when calling it up) and thus can not always be used during when it can be needed (unless you can hold the mouse, move and hold several buttons on the same time)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

...Is it me or I can't understand anything about this last part?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Not really, no.

 

Depends on interpretation.

 

Besides, immersion is independent of 'realism'.

 

True. Though, did I suggest or say otherwise? Just curious.

 

Consistency in the game and in the game universe creates immersion.

 

I agree, although I don't find it's exclusive to those elements alone even if I find them to be more important.

 

The game giving you clear and direct information through the simplest of media does not, although faffing around with 'health readers' and other methods of distancing the player from the information that he needs to know immediately in order to be fully engrossed in the game - other ways of pulling him out of the action because he needs to check his health bar or ammo count... might break immersion.

 

Giving clear and direct information can be made in a way that it feels natural to the gameworld or it can be made in a way that it feels distant to the gameworld. Considering interfaces are elements which filter what happens in the gameworld so we can better interact with them, and are recognizably so, I'd say they feel distant and can lead to immersion breaking. This isn't always the case, but it is most of the time.

 

Also, in no part of what I wrote above did I suggest pulling the player out of the action in order to access his health bar or ammo count.

 

An in-game justification for the structure of the game itself seems kind of pointless and in fact more likely to remind me that I'm playing a game, rather than acting in a story. Remember when...

 

The structure of the game isn't necessarily the same as the interface. Bad as it may have been, the situation in your example wasn't quite the same as explaining why there are colored bars or numbers flying off NPC's head in combat.

 

And at some point you're just going to fall over because there *isn't* an explanation for the game menu in the life and times of a Roman general and the closer you try to get to 'complete immersion', where you just can't be sure whether you're playing a computer game or not, the more likely it is you'll fall into the uncanny valley and turn a minor problem into a huge one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Better to have tried and failed than to have failed to try.

[BattleCookiee]

Or think about how my suggestion was for Metal Gear Solid, which is not a firstperson shooter and does not have the need for such a level of constant feedback as one. Or think about just how many times during intense gunfights players actually look at health gauges. Check out Llyranor's suggestions, they're pretty good.

 

Well, I do that alot. Don't wan't to go dying in the middle of the battle. Sound like you guys don't play FPS/Online FPS enough to know how vital it is to know health/ammo and act upon that...

As said; sometimes you need to know when to keep fighting, and when to run...

 

Progressive texture remapping of the model to display wounds, slowdown of movements, and loss of skill depending on character damage. To start with.

 

Very easy to do in a FPS indeed. If PNJ uses UE3 and goes FP (or in a game like Oblivion) it is really handy to implent...expect you won't see a thing of it...

 

Doubtful, since I'm suggesting nearly any interface to be visible at all. It can't be cumbersome if it's not there.

 

What is more cumbersome? A interface that gives you everything you wan't in 1 look or an interface with 50 buttons to get all that info seperately?

I know which I would prefer...

 

Your point was that it was (supposedly) hard to do. I only presented another example of something which is also considered hard to do, but it's very manegeable. And both reloading a weapon and checking up on health during a firefight are very similar, to the extent the player has to perform two actions simultaneously.

 

But considering my suggesting involves the ability to keep seeing all the action and interacting while still checking health levels, I don't see how that's really a concern to begin with. It can be used once or toggled, much like a stealth mode, changing between running/walking modes, or doing a simple crouch.

 

Reloading is very hard to do? Pressing R (or some other key) is hard to do? Indeed it is hard to do if you have to press ANOTHER button to see if you need to press the Reload button, like you might be suggesting for the games not using high-futuristic weaponry...

Checking up on health during a battle is already done often enough and if the health is in need of an extra button it can really distract from what you are doing? Reloading is usually something not done in combat situations anyways, but checking your health is part of that...

 

Keep seeing? First you say you put all the HUD away and now it is "all still visible". Toggle? Sure, instead of having it handy at the sides of the screen it has to take up half the middle of the underscreen to display all the extra graphical goodies around the instruments...

And switching stance/walking mode/stealth is usually done at the begin/before the actual combat, and cannot be compared to knowing what your health is. What if you lie and near dying. You know that so you can get up and run, but if you don't know your health your dead pretty soon...

 

I'm not trying to "destroy realism". Also, they are independant of each other.

 

No, you tend to create "realism" and there-fore sacrifice "immersion" and "gameplay"

 

...Is it me or I can't understand anything about this last part?

 

Probably. In a rewrite then:

You can still see your health and ammo, that is if you can use the movement keys, LMB (+jump etc. and all the other "fire avoiding move" keys) and 2 different buttons on the board at the same time while still concentrating on the combat and making your decision

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Well, I do that alot. Don't wan't to go dying in the middle of the battle. Sound like you guys don't play FPS/Online FPS enough to know how vital it is to know health/ammo and act upon that...

 

Or maybe I play enough of them to suggest something that doesn't require any out of the ordinary maneuvers, as well as allowing players to keep paying attention to the action.

 

Very easy to do in a FPS indeed. If PNJ uses UE3 and goes FP (or in a game like Oblivion) it is really handy to implent...expect you won't see a thing of it...

 

Unless you have the ability to switch between first and third person. Like Oblivion.

 

What is more cumbersome? A interface that gives you everything you wan't in 1 look or an interface with 50 buttons to get all that info seperately?

 

I can't fathom how you go from 1 button to 3, then 50. Before your next post mentions my suggestion requires 14 keyboards, 5 mouses, and 2 DDR Dance Pads, look up the part of my post where I said it only needs one button to be activated on demand, or toggled. With 1 button.

 

Reloading is very hard to do? Pressing R (or some other key) is hard to do?

 

If you don't find executing that action hard, you shouldn't consider checking your health in the same manner hard.

 

Indeed it is hard to do if you have to press ANOTHER button to see if you need to press the Reload button, like you might be suggesting for the games not using high-futuristic weaponry...

 

Nicely put, IF.

 

Keep seeing? First you say you put all the HUD away and now it is "all still visible".

 

Go check that line you quoted. I said my suggestion allowed players to retain the ability to keep seeing all the action and interacting with surroundings. When I say they'd still be able to see the action, I'm clearly not refering to the HUD, I'm refering to the action that is occuring, ie, gunfights. In other words, the player would have the ability to call up the health display in the suggested manner, but doing so would not negatively impact on his ability to keep interacting with the rest of the game. By association, this also means he'd be able to switch between seeing and not seeing his health displayed without this becoming a problem when used in the middle of a confrontation because it's not on a separate screen or anything; it's displayed on the same screen as the rest of the game, while the action is taking place.

 

If you have to, consider it close to going about your business and suddenly lifting your left hand to check your watch to see what time it is. Except in the game, you'd be shooting every stinking hippie down the street.

 

Toggle? Sure, instead of having it handy at the sides of the screen it has to take up half the middle of the underscreen to display all the extra graphical goodies around the instruments...

 

I'm glad you know more about the system than I do, especially considering it doesn't exist.

 

And switching stance/walking mode/stealth is usually done at the begin/before the actual combat

 

'Actual combat' is unpredictable. Given you play FPSs, you should know no combat situation is ever the same, and different actions may be required to survive or advance. This is especially true of online shooters where there'd be a whole deal of frustration if stealth or crouching was only done before any combat situation, rather than when it's required.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

and cannot be compared to knowing what your health is.

 

That's because you're comparing between the gameplay mechanics themselves, when you should be comparing the ability to toggle or activate a function instead. In other words, no, I'm not saying sneaking is the same as looking at a health bar; I'm saying activating the health display would be just the same as activating a function like sneaking. Or reloading.

 

What if you lie and near dying. You know that so you can get up and run, but if you don't know your health your dead pretty soon...

 

That's why you'd be able to... Check it!

 

No, you tend to create "realism" and there-fore sacrifice "immersion" and "gameplay"

 

Which part of "they're different", "I don't care for realism", and "immersion is independent of realism" do you require me to explain better?

 

You can still see your health and ammo, that is if you can use the movement keys, LMB (+jump etc. and all the other "fire avoiding move" keys) and 2 different buttons on the board at the same time while still concentrating on the combat and making your decision

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

2 extra keys, for expressing two functions most players can't deal with when in intense firefights. That hard to control?

[Blaise Russel]

True. Though, did I suggest or say otherwise? Just curious.

 

No, I don't think you did.

 

I agree, although I don't find it's exclusive to those elements alone even if I find them to be more important.

 

Perhaps it's a matter of personal emphasis. As a games player, I've never really been as interested in the 'game' part of a game as I am in the story and atmosphere and suchlike. As such, I don't notice things like the interface save that they're particularly bad or cumbersome (like the NWN radial menu). Someone with a more balanced view (or just someone more perceptive, more attuned to what their senses say rather than their brain) might pick up on these other elements.

 

Giving clear and direct information can be made in a way that it feels natural to the gameworld or it can be made in a way that it feels distant to the gameworld. Considering interfaces are elements which filter what happens in the gameworld so we can better interact with them, and are recognizably so, I'd say they feel distant and can lead to immersion breaking. This isn't always the case, but it is most of the time.

 

I think this is more a matter of art direction rather than incorporating the interface into the gameworld - making the buttons and things look appropriate and atmospheric. Perhaps this is my personal bias again, but I'd have been just as happy if the Freespace games had used generic space-battle-bg-with-interface for the main menu than if they'd used the rooms on a spaceship equalling your menu options that they did. Not taking into account that the latter is prettier, of course.

 

Different example: didn't bother using the ammo readouts on the gun models in Q4. Sure, it's quite impressive and I can appreciate the effort mentally, but I just never used it in the actual game. This may have been due to being trained to look at the HUD rather than the gun, but of course when I'm playing I don't want to be staring at my weapon at any moment in time, trying to read the little screen at an angle when I can look at the whole shebang.

 

Also, in no part of what I wrote above did I suggest pulling the player out of the action in order to access his health bar or ammo count.

 

No, true, but I fear that poor implementation of a design that isn't centred around clarity and sense can lead to messiness and confusion. Consider the DX:IW 'eye' hud, which just got in the way. While of course it isn't always going to be like that, the point is that it can and I don't see the rewards really justifying going to the expense to get something like this right when you can just do it the simple way and get on with the game.

 

Better to have tried and failed than to have failed to try.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See, I'd be saying that about trying to turn computer games into a decent storytelling artform, 'cause that's important to me. Combining the structure/interface of the game with the creation of an alternate world is not so important to me, so 'trying and failing' is not really any better than not bothering - especially when an immersive game world isn't the focus of your project. Even if we limit it to RPGs, a character focused game is not so reliant on this world-immersion-thing as, say, Fallout would be, or your interpretation of DX.

[Nartwak]

Can I get a translator?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bottom of the page. Posts that end up on the bottom of a page tend to be overlooked, so I was being courteous and putting your post on the next page.

[BattleCookiee]

Or maybe I play enough of them to suggest something that doesn't require any out of the ordinary maneuvers, as well as allowing players to keep paying attention to the action.

 

Out of the ordinary manouvers are being suggested...

How can you pay attention to the combat if you need to press additional keys to see your status and how you fare in that fight?

 

Unless you have the ability to switch between first and third person. Like Oblivion.

 

So, you have to keep switching to 3D to see your healthstatus? Wow, that really helps me when I have a FP-Swordfight in Oblivion...

 

I can't fathom how you go from 1 button to 3, then 50. Before your next post mentions my suggestion requires 14 keyboards, 5 mouses, and 2 DDR Dance Pads, look up the part of my post where I said it only needs one button to be activated on demand, or toggled. With 1 button.

 

If you think them as toggles, WHAT is the difference from a fixed HUD? If you play a FPS and ever toggle the Health/Ammo off your either a n00b or Fatal1ty...

 

If you don't find executing that action hard, you shouldn't consider checking your health in the same manner hard.

 

I don't think watching my screen for health information hard indeed. It will become harder when I have to keep calling up health information in combat manually, instead of at a quick glance at the lower half of the screen...

 

Go check that line you quoted. I said my suggestion allowed players to retain the ability to keep seeing all the action and interacting with surroundings. When I say they'd still be able to see the action, I'm clearly not refering to the HUD, I'm refering to the action that is occuring, ie, gunfights. In other words, the player would have the ability to call up the health display in the suggested manner, but doing so would not negatively impact on his ability to keep interacting with the rest of the game. By association, this also means he'd be able to switch between seeing and not seeing his health displayed without this becoming a problem when used in the middle of a confrontation because it's not on a separate screen or anything; it's displayed on the same screen as the rest of the game, while the action is taking place.

 

If you have to, consider it close to going about your business and suddenly lifting your left hand to check your watch to see what time it is. Except in the game, you'd be shooting every stinking hippie down the street.

 

Once again, I repeat? What game are you playing that actually has the HUD distracting from the combat, instead of severly helping in it?

Same screen? How is that different from every damn single FPS on the market today. First you describe how to change the current HUD but from your 2 latest posts it looks like you wan't to replace the HUD with... the HUD.

Or do I just seem to fail you wan't to replace permanent health/ammo display with Permanent health/ammo display (but with a toggle you will never use to turn it off)

 

'Actual combat' is unpredictable. Given you play FPSs, you should know no combat situation is ever the same, and different actions may be required to survive or advance. This is especially true of online shooters where there'd be a whole deal of frustration if stealth or crouching was only done before any combat situation, rather than when it's required.

 

Indeed. I know that. And it helps to know when you face an enemy what your health/ammo is. A guy with a simple gun might be killable with your current stats, but for that rocketlauncher guy you have to run. That is why their is a HUD displaying your PRIMARY information to make such decisions in a quick thought of mind instead of first getting info from several different "tools" and then get into the combat, unknowing how you fare untill one of both dies (or you check your nice tool in combat and die because that gives the other guy the advantage).

And stealth in an online game is alot different than pressing a button, I can tell you that...

 

That's because you're comparing between the gameplay mechanics themselves, when you should be comparing the ability to toggle or activate a function instead. In other words, no, I'm not saying sneaking is the same as looking at a health bar; I'm saying activating the health display would be just the same as activating a function like sneaking. Or reloading.

 

But why? It is important to know (especially in "True FPS") what your health lvls are, why only have them on certain occassions when it is usefull to have them at all times...

 

Which part of "they're different", "I don't care for realism", and "immersion is independent of realism" do you require me to explain better?

 

You say so, but the fact remains your suggestion is +Realism and -Immersion and -Gameplay...

 

2 extra keys, for expressing two functions most players can't deal with when in intense firefights. That hard to control?

 

Once again, play more FPS (Preferably online). I'll bet you'll check your health/Ammo regularly when fighting... (atleast if you have a good FPS)

[Spider]

I think a point that is being overlooked in the current discussion is that not every game should strive for maximum immersion.

 

In some games, like a multiplayer FPS, the game is more about beating the crap out of your opponents than immersing yourself in the gameworld. Therefor it is obviously important to have information like health and ammo readily available at all times, because even a fraction of a second may be the difference between dominating or being a pile of goo.

 

But in single player games like MSG or even the single player campaign of FEAR (or RPGs) immersion is something to strive for. In such games integrating the interface into the gameworld could very well be a good thing if done right. Not every idea is going to work for every game, because all games are different.

[Hell Kitty]

Something I've always liked about the Metal Gear Solid games is that they've always been happy to acknowledge the fact that they are just games.

 

Take the lightgem in the Thief games, which indicates how deep in the shadows (and therefore hidden) the player is. There is never an attempt to justify it by giving it some in-game reason for existing, it's simply a tool to deliver information to the player. Would the game be more immersive if we were told the lightgem is actually a magical ring Garrett wears?

 

I always find attempts to explain the hud only ever screams "HELLO I AM A GAME BUT LET'S PRETEND I'M NOT OKAY".