How would you "prove" Intelligent Design ?

[~Di]

Well, Eldar, since you seem to have become rather hostile on the topic I shall drop my part of the discussion. A pity, that. I certainly didn't think I was being severe; I was actually feeling rather pleasant and in the mood for discussion.

 

Yes, we clearly have a failure to communicate here. If I don't understand what you are saying, I'll ask for clarification. If you clearly have misunderstood what I meant, I'll try to restate my position better. That was certainly not meant to be a personal insult to you, although much of what you wrote in reply was clearly meant to insult me. I'm... surprised. I thought we were friends.

 

And, to be honest, what really got my goat was the issue with the axe-handle. It was a stupid and ridiculous statement that would have received vilification if made by a Christian about non-Christians. We should own up that the standard should be the same.

 

 

Speaking of not understanding, I have no idea what you are talking about here. I never mentioned axe-handles.

 

Oh, well.

Edited November 17, 2005 by ~Di

[~Di]

Di, I can't say I know much about Christian politics in the US but I can't possibly agree that Missisippi snake-testing baptists are in effective cahoots with New England Anglicans, or Utah Mormons. I mean I'll agree Christianity dominates American culture, but precisely how that manifests is probably pretty messy, and not up to individual people or sects.

 

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't... politically speaking, of course! :D Thing is, I was asked my definition of "fundamentalism", and I gave it. That said, there are extreme elements of every religion on earth, and every sect of every religion. However, when these extreme elements gather enough power to begin instilling public policy that incorporates their personal religious belief, then I consider that a threat to this supposedly-secular society that I personally would like to keep.

 

I believe that criminalizing abortion, diminishing science in our public schools to elevate biblical myth as a scientific equal, forcing prayers upon our children in their schools (which has been outlawed by the USSC but which a wide array of Christians, and not just extremists, have fought tooth-and-nail to reinstate) is the beginning of what I can see as a future Christian theocracy in this country. And I'm against it!

 

If I've understood y'all correctly the suggestion is that ID is merely one battle in a much wider campaign to get a Christian right agenda and viewpoint accepted as orthodox. i.e. (to mutilate my analogy) the debate is a smokescreen for the real issue, while at the same time being symptomatic of that issue - the replacement of a search for objective truth with a subjective defining of truth by a self-appointed (unless one counts in God) minority.

 

Is that a fair summation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, it is. At least in my opinion.

[Cantousent]

You know, Di, I'm said to be a hot head these days. Even so, I'd never engage in a true vendetta with you. I'm speaking my mind forcefully but, at the end of the day, I really don't have any animosity for you. I'd explain the whole axe handle issue, but I'd probably just end up fighting with someone or another over it. :Eldar's wolfish grin icon:

 

Having flamed a good number of folks over the past couple of weeks, I think I'll just leave the subject to others for a bit. Going flame on won't help my case anyhow.

 

The real irony is that, on a point for point policy issue, we probably agree more often than not. I just don't like putting down "fundamentalists." You see, I wasn't brought up as Southern Baptist. More literal interpretations of the Bible are not part of my childhood experience, and so I see fundamentalists as a different group. Maybe that's why I sympathize with them. I see them as an out group, most of whom are actually pretty decent folks. Real radicals stand out in our society.

 

We still don't have a hard, fast definition for a "fundamentalist." For the sake of argument, however, I'm willing to accept Random Evil Guy's definition of someone who takes every word in the Bible as true in each specific case.

[julianw]

I believe that criminalizing abortion, diminishing science in our public schools to elevate biblical myth as a scientific equal, forcing prayers upon our children in their schools (which has been outlawed by the USSC but which a wide array of Christians, and not just extremists, have fought tooth-and-nail to reinstate) is the beginning of what I can see as a future Christian theocracy in this country.  And I'm against it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the fact is that roughly 80% of this country's population describe them as Christians. Of course, not all of them read the Bible from cover to cover but this is a Christian country nonetheless. I don't know about a Christian theocracy, but the Christian influence in our national policies will remain strong for perhaps a few more centuries. Abortion rights will continue to be challenged, people will continue trying to force prayers in public schools, fundamentalists will continue waving the Bible in their hands and trying to convince everybody that everything contained in it is infallibly true. But as long as our democracy is intact and as long as the executive branch and the legislative branch of our government is democratically elected, all these things shouldn't be a problem. Every citizen has his/her right to exert influence over this country's national policies, fundamentalist or not. If you don't like how things are going with our government policies, get out and vote. This country's population also overwhelmingly favors Democrats. Republicans are just smart enough to get their butts over to the voting booth and voice their opinions.

[Walsingham]

You don't HAVE to be a Christian to believe abortion is wrong.

 

I also think that ID in school, whlie being the thin end of the wedge, is not exactly proof that the End Times are upon us. I mean, oughtn't we to get more irate about the fact that our schools fail to impart the curriculum to the majority of students, and worry about what that curriculum is later? I dont know much about the US, but British schools are churning people who can't read, write, and do basic maths! Let alone grasp the fundamentals of scientific endeavour.

 

Di and Eldar, you're both clearly interested in understanding each other's POV. I say keep talking.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You don't HAVE to be a Christian to believe abortion is wrong.

 

I also think that ID in school, whlie being the thin end of the wedge, is not exactly proof that the End Times are upon us. I mean, oughtn't we to get more irate about the fact that our schools fail to impart the curriculum to the majority of students, and worry about what that curriculum is later? I dont know much about the US, but British schools are churning people who can't read, write, and do basic maths! Let alone grasp the fundamentals of scientific endeavour.

 

Di and Eldar, you're both clearly interested in understanding each other's POV. I say keep talking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True although people who are not christians generally have a better reason than "because god says so".

 

My view on abortion is pretty simple really. Without the mother the baby dies, therefore the mother has the final say in the matter.

 

Some sort of ID has always been taught in schools. The difference is they are trying to add credibility that it dosnt have by teaching it as a science.

[Walsingham]

Belief in God hasn't and isn't always the same as saying 'God told me' in response to any question. Some great philosophers have been men of God. The BBC's 'thought for the day' show has some pretty interesting questions thought through by Rabbi's, Mullahs, and Bishops, as well as doctors and politicians.

 

If someone wearing a big shiny christian hat <sic> thumping the table and telling me they're right, then I see an idiot, not a christian.

[Judge Hades]

I don't see abortion as wrong. It is just a preventive measure of adding to the world's problem of overpopulation. Ultimately that is a woman's issue, and since I am not a woman it isn't my place to tell a woman that it is wrong or right. If the majority of women in the US wants abortion legal, then lets have it legal. If the majority of women want it illegal then lets have it illegal. We men should have absolutely no say in the issue of abortion. We have no right to control a woman's reproductive system in any shape or form, may you be a Atheist, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, or whatnot.

 

 

I will however fight for the rights of women to make that choice. God be damned as far I am concerned.

 

I also don't have a huge problem with ID as long as it is taught in Sunday School or Church driven private schools. Separation of Church and State must be maintained.

[random evil guy]

Belief in God hasn't and isn't always the same as saying 'God told me' in response to any question. Some great philosophers have been men of God. The BBC's 'thought for the day' show has some pretty interesting questions thought through by Rabbi's, Mullahs, and Bishops, as well as doctors and politicians.

 

however, their beliefs always 'came before' their scientific explorations and secular thinking. that way, the choice to believe in a god isn't rational. afterwards, they try to explain/defend/justify their beliefs with some fancy semantic and such.

 

you won't find many intelligent and rational atheists converting...

Edited November 17, 2005 by random evil guy

[Blank]

you won't find many intelligent and rational atheists converting...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That shows you how intelligent and rational they are...

Edited November 17, 2005 by Blank

[Walsingham]

In my experience it is very easy to be an atheist in an armchair with a cup of coffee. the further I've been from that chair and the closer to death I've got, the more tempting God becomes. You could say that was cowardice, but I've also noticed many other things shift when you're in really deep trouble, like friends, enemies, relationships, and so on. My observations when in the poop have often been much more reliable than when I'm all comfy and can talk/think rubbish with no comeback. So maybe God really does make sense. *shrugs*

 

When it comes right down to it I am an atheist because I believe a man should have to live by laws he has a say in. I refuse to be pushed around by a supreme being.

 

I must say I also find all this talk rather centred on fruitcake extremists, who in my opinion will use any old excuse to have a fight. They enjoy feeling superior and pushing people around.

 

What about your holy-rollers who protest in dictatorships, knowing they will lose their lives? Or the holy-rollers who treat the terminally ill? Or devote their lives to helping the poor?

 

IMO losing faith in the human race entirely means one needs to get out more, and certainly meet some different people.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

In my experience it is very easy to be an atheist in an armchair with a cup of coffee. the further I've been from that chair and the closer to death I've got, the more tempting God becomes. You could say that was cowardice, but I've also noticed many other things shift when you're in really deep trouble, like friends, enemies, relationships, and so on. My observations when in the poop have often been much more reliable than when I'm all comfy and can talk/think rubbish with no comeback. So maybe God really does make sense. *shrugs*

 

When it comes right down to it I am an atheist because I believe a man should have to live by laws he has a say in. I refuse to be pushed around by a supreme being. 

 

I must say I also find all this talk rather centred on fruitcake extremists, who in my opinion will use any old excuse to have a fight. They enjoy feeling superior and pushing people around.

 

What about your holy-rollers who protest in dictatorships, knowing they will lose their lives? Or the holy-rollers who treat the terminally ill? Or devote their lives to helping the poor?

 

IMO losing faith in the human race entirely means one needs to get out more, and certainly meet some different people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It really just plays into Freuds explanation of why man created god. god makes sense because you want the same reasurance at that time that a child would look to a parent for.

 

I have no particular problem with religion as long as it always defers to evidence.

[Walsingham]

I think the key is what the religion tells you to do without evidence. The hamster wants you to eat no meat on fridays, no biggie. The hamster wants you to chow down on the meaty marrow of evil (as defined by due process of law) OK. The hamster wants you to murder your family and dance about in their skin, it's time to ask some questions.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I think the key is what the religion tells you to do without evidence.  The hamster wants you to eat no meat on fridays, no biggie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well not to me I'm a vegertarian...

 

If I wasnt though I'd want to know why the hamster thinks it has the right to dictate what I eat.

 

I see at a biggie because it's trying to dictate my personal freedoms. I'd need evidence otherwise I'd tell the hamster to go spin on it's wheel.

[Blank]

Well not to me I'm a vegertarian...

 

If I wasnt though I'd want to know why the hamster thinks it has the right to dictate what I eat.

 

I see at a biggie because it's trying to dictate my personal freedoms. I'd need evidence otherwise I'd tell the hamster to go spin on it's wheel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd hang the hamster on a cross and tauntingly ask why it can't save itself if it is god.

[Judge Hades]

I'm a vegertarian...

 

I am an humanitarian. *munch munch munch*

[random evil guy]

you won't find many intelligent and rational atheists converting...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That shows you how intelligent and rational they are...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yeah it does. so your sarcasm is way off...

[Blank]

you won't find many intelligent and rational atheists converting...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That shows you how intelligent and rational they are...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah it does. so your sarcasm is way off...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is not the fact that sarcasm is way off the very reason that it is on?

Edited November 17, 2005 by Blank

[random evil guy]

wouldn't mis directed sarcasm be off? well directed sarcasm would be 'on'...

[Blank]

wouldn't mis directed sarcasm be off? well directed sarcasm would be 'on'...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

my sarcasm was directed at your comment in order to provoke a silly argument such as this one. whether it is directed or mis-directed sarcasm doesn't matter, it got its job done

[random evil guy]

admitting to being a troll are we...?

[Blank]

admitting to being a troll are we...?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Troll's are bullies, i was just provoking for a bit, like most everyone here does that i have seen. you had fun too right?

[Cantousent]

I wouldn't lay the troll charge on someone's feet for provocative comments, Random. It's just not sporting considering some of your comments. :Eldar's shaking his head with a wry grin icon:

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'm a vegertarian...

 

I am an humanitarian. *munch munch munch*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know they dont mean the same thing right :D

[Plano Skywalker]

Secondly, I don't see why you need a god for the universe and the big bang to come into existance. It could simply just be there, as a fact, constantly just looping around from the big bang to the big crunch, over and over and over...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

so the universe (or multiverse, if you will) is itself eternal, divine, without limits, self-sustaining? since when did you become a pantheist?