console and PC

[Hell Kitty]

What do you mean by a "richer mental landscape".

 

A complex control system doesn't make for a complex game any more than a simple control system makes for a simple game. And of course, a complex game isn't automatically a good one.

[Walsingham]

I know a complex control system doesn't make for a complex game. I know I'm a cretin (my word for the day) by I'm not that bad.

 

What I like in a game is a good mental workout. I like to have several options to any given problem, and the more the better. If you only have two alternatives you quickly get bored.

 

As you say, you can have games that are complex without being good. A fact 'Doctor' Derek Smart could benefit from absorbing. But in general having a lot of options does at least provide a learning curve to climb, and the thrill of picking out the best control strategies for yourself.

[Kalfear]

I know a complex control system doesn't make for a complex game. I know I'm a cretin (my word for the day) by I'm not that bad.

 

What I like in a game is a good mental workout. I like to have several options to any given problem, and the more the better. If you only have two alternatives you quickly get bored.

 

As you say, you can have games that are complex without being good. A fact 'Doctor' Derek Smart could benefit from absorbing. But in general having a lot of options does at least provide a learning curve to climb, and the thrill of picking out the best control strategies for yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Totally agree with yas on that Wals

 

Any given problem should have multiple ways to work it out.

 

Im replaying KotOR1 (and then 2 later) right now and ran across the side quest where the hunter was traped by his droids. You could sit and figure out the mathimatical problem (I did but I always loved math), or you could just repair them (if you had enough repair parts), or you could blow them up intentionally killing the hunter, or you could just leave him (in which he suicides anyways). Thats a somewhat simplistic but still good example of what I think your talking about. Not everyone will be a math wizz or even for that matter be interested in spending the time to figure out the problem.

 

Multiple pathways to solve a quest/problem in a game should be mandatory when designing it.

[metadigital]

...

2) While you might run at 1600 im sure most people in general do not. How do I know this? I just purchased a 60" WS HD TV (huge money) and it cant acheive anywhere near what your saying. Since computer monitors typically cost MORE then its TV countermarks, Id say the AVERAGE person is not spending 4k on a 19" monitor that can acheive that type of resolution.

...

4) As for adding content, I fully admit that WAS a issue. But since XBox 360 COMES with (FREE) the ability to DL patches and or content and chat online (just cant play online, need to purchase the gold membership for that), your content arguement doesnt hold water. Heck there is (as you know) regular xbox and PS2 games that already have extra downloadedable content.

 

So again not following  the thinking here. Downloadable content will but up to the developers (so I guess they can choose not to offer any like Obsidian did for KotOR2) but doesnt by any stretch mean its not available or wont be available. Chances are D/L content will play a huge role in the new PS3 and Xbox 360s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2. Actually Dell 20" LCD for c.

[Kalfear]

...

2) While you might run at 1600 im sure most people in general do not. How do I know this? I just purchased a 60" WS HD TV (huge money) and it cant acheive anywhere near what your saying. Since computer monitors typically cost MORE then its TV countermarks, Id say the AVERAGE person is not spending 4k on a 19" monitor that can acheive that type of resolution.

...

4) As for adding content, I fully admit that WAS a issue. But since XBox 360 COMES with (FREE) the ability to DL patches and or content and chat online (just cant play online, need to purchase the gold membership for that), your content arguement doesnt hold water. Heck there is (as you know) regular xbox and PS2 games that already have extra downloadedable content.

 

So again not following  the thinking here. Downloadable content will but up to the developers (so I guess they can choose not to offer any like Obsidian did for KotOR2) but doesnt by any stretch mean its not available or wont be available. Chances are D/L content will play a huge role in the new PS3 and Xbox 360s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2. Actually Dell 20" LCD for c.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Kalfear

[metadigital]

I can run games in 16000 x 12000 widescreen now, HDTV won't do that in this generation of consoles.

Your monitor must rock! Not to mention your GPU..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was talking about potentials. The computer potentially can run silly resolutions whereas the console is limited by the NTSC ratio 4:3 is 640 by 480 resolution. PAL is 720 x 486.

 

Even dvd is only: 720 x 576 pixels (PAL DVDs), or 720 x 480 pixels (NTSC DVDs).

 

I run my laptop at WXVGA (1600x1050) resolution. That's about 500% more detail per frame than PAL, which is in turn 20% more detailed than NTSC.

 

The point is, if you are a graphics whore, then the console will never be good enough.

[Judge Hades]

KotOR 2 needs the mods since it has been abandoned by LA and Obs.

[WinterSun]

...Games made for a console only have to be displayed on a TV, so they are visually gimped to begin with...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course,with a console you're further away from the screen,so you don't really notice the low resolution eg Morrowind on the X-Box looks better than the PC version at the same resolution.

[Gabrielle]

KotOR 2 needs the mods since it has been abandoned by LA and Obs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sadly true.

[metadigital]

...Games made for a console only have to be displayed on a TV, so they are visually gimped to begin with...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course,with a console you're further away from the screen,so you don't really notice the low resolution eg Morrowind on the X-Box looks better than the PC version at the same resolution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can get a projector for my PC, so that I can re-define being "immersed" in the game. :D

 

Next, I want a force-tactile feedback suit and dimensional suspension array (like in Lawnmower Man), and a sensation-feedback pulse into my brain ... "

[Kalfear]

...Games made for a console only have to be displayed on a TV, so they are visually gimped to begin with...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course,with a console you're further away from the screen,so you don't really notice the low resolution eg Morrowind on the X-Box looks better than the PC version at the same resolution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can get a projector for my PC, so that I can re-define being "immersed" in the game. :D

 

Next, I want a force-tactile feedback suit and dimensional suspension array (like in Lawnmower Man), and a sensation-feedback pulse into my brain ... "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yas know, its interesting as I forgot one of the main selling features I requested for before buying (regarding my TV).

 

It CAN be used as a computer monitor (with out damaging it) and run any CURRENT video card settings.

 

So again I gotta wonder where you get your info from.

 

Sounds to me like the new (with in last 2 years as I bought a 18 month old demo) HD TVs can infact do everything you claim they cant.

 

Guess Ill have to get off me arse and buy the proper $10.00 connection (so can hook puter to TV) and try it out for final verification.

 

 

PS: and yes, that stuff from Lawnmower man would be awsome.

 

Kinda weird really, I tried out a virtual reality (you stood inside a half arch type deal and movement was controled by your actual movements inside a very basic video game setting) over a decade ago. Kinda weird they havent advanced it into common market yet with the tech advances over last 10 years.

 

Just a observation totally off topic

[alanschu]

What TV do you have?

[Kalfear]

What TV do you have?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Spoiled my self and bought a Hitachi 60" wide screen HD TV, rear projection TV.

 

But beyond the screen size (which was the huge selling point! heh), all its options are standard on any LCD/plasma TV on the market (I shopped around alot before buying).

 

All the new Plasma and LCD rear projection (and flat screens) can be used as a computer monitor, have great resolution (long as TV channel, DVD, console system, computer utilize it).

 

For example, normal channels on TV run at 480 resolution (as meta posted), HD channels run at 720 and 1080 resolution. Certain DvDs also run that high where as others do infact run at lower resolution, just depends on maker and product.

 

Regarding console games, if you purchase a $20.00 HD connection (and game supports HD) you can run the game at SIGNIFIGANTLY higher resolution then what normal folks see on their TV for a console. IE: See above resolution quotes.

 

For Computers, you just need to buy the compatable connection that works with your specific video card to use TV as a monitor.

 

The reason I asked about computer for this TV actually was because of this message board last year.

 

Last year (before it blew) I had a sony 42" rear projection and someone here posted I could run computer through it (I couldnt, to old a model). But its standard procedure now for the newer TVs to support this option.

 

Just drop into any Sony (or electronics store) and ask, they will verify EVERYTHING I just stated.

 

Regarding price: I bought a demo so got a great deal ( I admit it, price dropped $1000.00) BUT even still my 60" TV costed 1k more then my 19" flat screen monitor I purchased a year ago. That alone pretty much ends the financial aspect of discussion. How much extra would a computer monitor cost for 41 additional inches of screen size? ALOT more then 1k or 2k, thats for sure.

[metadigital]

1. Some TVs may now have the ability to take a computer signal, that's true. It will still have an upper limit, though. You seem to be saying that the TV has the resolution of a high-end monitor, YET costs a bomb AND is cheaper than a monitor. If that were the case, then no-one would buy monitors and just buy TVs. The reason monitors cost more than TVs is because they have better resolution, LCD refresh delays (sub 4ms) and brightness and contrast ratios, etc, so I'm not following your line of reasoning there.

 

2. Console games are not going to support these resolutions as a standard. Even if the better games do (and how much are they going to cost?), they will be 1080i (interlaced), (1920 x 1080 or about 2.07 million pixels) but that ain't going to better a PC resolution, which (with widescreen monitors) is already way beyond that (WHUXGA = 7680

[Hell Kitty]

I like to have several options to any given problem, and the more the better. If you only have two alternatives you quickly get bored.

 

So do I, but what does that have to do with the amount of buttons pressed over the course of the game? How does 16 buttons and two analogue sticks on a PS2 controller translate to two alternatives to every problem?

 

But in general having a lot of options does at least provide a learning curve to climb,

 

Lots of buttons to press does not equal lots of options. For example, look at Thief 2 for example, I press W to walk forward, S to walk forward slowly, F to run forward, X to move backwards, and A & D to move left & right. On top of these you can hold down Ctrl to "creep". That's 7 keys to move different ways. On a potential PS2 version you use one analogue stick to perform all these movements, with the speed you move at dependant on how hard you hold down on the stick.

 

That's 7 keys on PC version one analogue stick on PS2. Can the PC be said to offer more options than PS2, because it requires use of several keys to move whereas PS2 requires only one stick? Of course not.

 

In a PC RPG, the controls may be set up so pressing F1 displays inventory, F2 displays Character Screen, F3 displays Spell screen etc. A console doesn't have enough buttons to offer a single key for each different screen, so instead you press one button like Start and scroll through the different screens.

 

More keys doesn't not equal more options.

[alanschu]

Which model do you have?

 

 

And stating the size difference of 41" is actually irrelevant.

 

Unless you use you computer screen from across the room, you'd be surprised how much the 19" screen takes up you field of view compared to a 60" plasma.

 

I bet if I was to do an empirical analysis, my 17" montior takes up more of my view when using the computer than most 60" TVs, depending on where I'm sitting in a room. I don't sit 12 inches away from a 60" TV when watching it.

 

 

Aside from that I don't really understand. You mentioned that you got lucky and received a $1000 discount and even then it still cost $1000 more than your 19" monitor, and then cast it aside as somehow still having the financial aspect on your side.

 

Well I might as well just chime in that my Dad owns his own computer store, so I can buy all my computer parts at wholesale! Nothing like saving a thousand dollars on an entire machine built from scratch!

[Musopticon?]

As a side comment to slip here(my interest on the actual discussion is nil): Judging from your sig, mr Chu, you don't seem to hold much love for Epiphany.

[Surreptishus]

Mr Schu

[Musopticon?]

Mister Allans Chu, the Board Ninja.

[Surreptishus]

Ah, I stand erected.

[Musopticon?]

I'd value your standing in this issue as...fascinating.

[alanschu]

Actually if anything, it's Alan Schu

 

My full name is Allan Schumacher

 

So Surreptishus was actually correct. The second 'L' got dropped because when my first email was created, the guy messed up and dropped one by mistake. It just stuck ever since.

[Musopticon?]

I know. You told me when I asked it, remember?

[metadigital]

I would argue that the mouse is a simpler interface, and also provides more subtle, complex and expansive control.

 

I also own a gamepad for my PC, although I haven't had the opportunity to use it very much.

[alanschu]

I know. You told me when I asked it, remember?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I couldn't remember if it was you or someone else