Deus Ex

[Hell Kitty]

It's just a method of progressing through the game.

 

An optional method, which isn't true of shooters, as a shooter that allows you to complete the game without ever shooting can't be called a shooter, any more than a game that allows you to avoid stealth completely can be called a stealth game.

 

I classify the exploration and interaction with characters and environment as the adventure part, and the combat (lethal or non-lethal) and stealth to sneak up on or avoid the enemy as the action part, which is why I refer to it as an action/adventure.

 

Also, Max Payne is not really a First Person Shooter either.  In fact, you're the first person I've seen refer to it like that.  Why do you refer to it as a First Person shooter though?  Because you shoot?  But what about the lack of First Person?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I probably just didn't make myself clear on that one, I'm saying that Max Payne is not a FPS, and I used it because of seen it referred to as one many times on different forums, and it makes no sense to refer to it as an FPS because it doesn't feature a first-person mode.

[BattleCookiee]

An optional method, which isn't true of shooters, as a shooter that allows you to complete the game without ever shooting can't be called a shooter, any more than a game that allows you to avoid stealth completely can be called a stealth game.

 

In the first pages you could read you HAVE to shoot and kill 3 people...

 

End of theory

[Hell Kitty]

Thief is a FPS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No it's not, Thief is an action/adventure. First-Person-Shooter is a sub-genre and part of the action genre. FPS games are always action games, but action games can only be called FPS if they fit a narrow criteria, which the Thief series, DX series or System Shock series do not meet.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Hell Kitty

[Hell Kitty]

***THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILS OMG!!!***

 

In the first pages you could read you HAVE to shoot and kill 3 people...

 

End of theory 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, you can tranquilise Strong, so you only need to kill Gunther and Navarre, and you don't need to engage them in combat either, you can learn their killphrases and kill them simply by choosing a dialogue option.

 

Of course none of this matters because needing to kill 2 people over the course of the game doesn't make DX a shooter any more than San Andreas is a dance simulator because of those annoying mini-games you have to do.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Hell Kitty

[BattleCookiee]

First off; We are no longer in the Doom Era... you understand that right? Shooters these days aren't about mindlessly shooting 1000s of enemies in 10 seconds with brains on zero (well, except games like Painkiller, Serious Sam and Doom3/Quake 4).

Some examples would be Half-Life (1/2), Deus Ex, Vampire: Bloodlines...

 

An optional method, which isn't true of shooters, as a shooter that allows you to complete the game without ever shooting can't be called a shooter, any more than a game that allows you to avoid stealth completely can be called a stealth game.

 

I classify the exploration and interaction with characters and environment as the adventure part, and the combat (lethal or non-lethal) and stealth to sneak up on or avoid the enemy as the action part, which is why I refer to it as an action/adventure.

 

Nope. It may be an optional method, but that doesn't change the fact that it is there and part of the genre. On this I could claim; "Deus Ex is no RPG" and you will agree with me because you don't HAVE to spend skill points or use biomods...

 

No it's not, Thief is an action/adventure. First-Person-Shooter is a sub-genre and part of the action genre. FPS games are always action games, but action games can only be called FPS if they fit a narrow criteria, which the Thief series, DX series or System Shock series do not meet.

 

Yep, Thief still is a shooter. You have FP (First Person) and the fact that, unlike a Splintercell for example you do not have several stealthy tricks. The only thing that you can do in Thief to take down an enemy is shoot with an arrow (S), or take down with the blackjack/sword (melee part all shooters have... as you said before)

 

***THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILS OMG!!!***

 

Actually, you can tranquilise Strong, so you only need to kill Gunther and Navarre, and you don't need to engage them in combat either, you can learn their killphrases and kill them simply by choosing a dialogue option.

 

Of course none of this matters because needing to kill 2 people over the course of the game doesn't make DX a shooter any more than San Andreas is a dance simulator because of those annoying mini-games you have to do.

 

Tranq. is with a crossbow. Crossbow shoots, qualifies as shooting ...

And no, just the killing of these 2/3 don't make Deus Ex a shooter. The fact that there is a FP-view, an Shooter-type way to kill enemies and loads of guns does...

[Hell Kitty]

Shooters don't have to be mindless, but the core gameplay component of a shooter does have to be combat in the form of shooting.

 

Many games offer at least one melee weapon like a knife, sword or crowbar, or punching and kicking as in F.E.A.R., or unusual weapons like the gravity gun in Half-Life 2, but all feature firearms as the primary weapons. Some, like F.E.A.R and Halo or Far Cry allow you to carry a limited selection of weapons. Many contain sections which require the use of a vehicle like in Half-Life 2 or Nolf, or maybe an "on-rails" sequence like shooting from the helicopter in SiN, or optional vehicles like those in Far Cry. Some have limited stealth levels that fail if you are seen, or even enemies that use stealth against you, like those in Far Cry. Some offer more open levels like Far Cry, that occasional allow you to avoid or sneak up on groups of enemies, some have gimmicks like Doom 3 which forces you to choose between flashlight and weapon...

 

But all shooters have one thing in common, the primary gameplay component involves moving from point-to-point shootin' ****. You don't have any options in this regard, if you don't want to shoot stuff your only option is not playing. If this is not the primary focus of a game then it is not a shooter.

 

Having to shoot only one, or even a handful or enemies over the course of a game that allows to to otherwise avoid combat doesn't suddenly turn a game into a shooter. If a game features shooting as just one of many elements, you don't broaden the term "shooter" to include a whole bunch of non-shooting related stuff, you put the game into one of the many other genre catagories available.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Hell Kitty

[Meshugger]

In response to the first poster: Yes, you're OBLIGED to play Deus Ex on the PC. The PS2 version had funky controls.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Given your lack of control over your squad, I'd say it's probably not a Tactical Squad game."

 

Fine, it's just a turn-based tactical combat game then.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Sarjahurmaaja.

[Mojo]

In response to the first poster: Yes, you're OBLIGED to play Deus Ex on the PC. The PS2 version had funky controls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Will do

 

What other games would you fine folk recommend, I dont really care what genre it is I pretty much like most.

 

But I am keen on good gameplay, and a good story

Edited November 9, 2005 by Mojo

[BattleCookiee]

[snap]

 

And some offer ways beyond shooting and such. Like I said there is "shooting" in DX. If you don't avoid anybody and kill everybody it might include more than any other FPS on the market.

 

Anyway, Deus Ex is also no RPG, well, in your way of seeing genres.

 

Let me ask another question; whould you call a RTS/RPG-Hybrid a RTS/RPG hybrid? As, to be RPG there has to be convo's and small groups, and usually the RPG in RTS mean that some have stats and an inventory?

 

Now; back to Deus Ex. Note the word "hybrid". Wouldn't the "avoid all enemies" be in the RPG part of this hybrid? So because you can go "stealthy" and "violent" it is FPS(Violent path)/RPG(Stealth Path)?

 

Your turn again...

[Spider]

Vampire: Bloodlines...

 

VtM: Bloodlines is no more a shooter than Morrowind is. Personally I'd classify neither as a shooter, but that's just me.

 

(haven't played DX so I have no opinion on that)

[BattleCookiee]

VtM: Bloodlines is no more a shooter than Morrowind is. Personally I'd classify neither as a shooter, but that's just me.

 

(haven't played DX so I have no opinion on that)

 

FPS is a part of Vampire's hybrid formula.

You can pick a gun and start blasting ala DX (wide aim getting less the better your skill etc.)

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Action/RPG fits best. Add desired prefix such as FPS 3PS etc.

 

The action part denotes a certain amount of player skill being required and the RPG part denotes, the player skill being augmented by the abilities of a character of some kind.

 

Just because you can sneak your way through large portions of the game dosnt make it a stealth game. A stealth game is a game where stealth is vital to success and not only a path you can choose.

 

I drove my way through the majority of Halo II , but it didnt make it a driving game either :D

Edited November 9, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Hell Kitty]

[snap]

And some offer ways beyond shooting and such.

 

If a game offers core gameplay beyond shooting then it's not a shooter.

 

Like I said there is "shooting" in DX.

 

There is shooting in lots of games. Shooting doesn't make the game a shooter, unless it makes up the core gameplay. If it's just one part of a greater whole, or entirely (or mostly avoidable) then it's not a shooter.

 

Take Omikron: The Nomad Soul, for instance. It feature first-person shooting, much more required than in DX, but this isn't enough to classify it as a shooter as it also features one on one melee fighting and adventure gaming, which makes it an anction/adventure. If it had stats, it's be an action/adventure with RPG elements, just like DX.

 

If you don't avoid anybody and kill everybody it might include more than any other FPS on the market.

 

Even if a game features better first-person firearms based combat than any FPS on the market, it doesn't make that game an FPS unless that combat is the core gameplay component.

 

Anyway, Deus Ex is also no RPG, well, in your way of seeing genres.

 

As I've already said, I see DX as an action/adventure with RPG elements (and DX:IW as just an action/adventure). The reason I say it has RPG elements, rather than classifying it as an RPG hyrid, it because, as you said before, you don't have to upgrade your skills. It'd make for a more difficult game, but it'd doable.

 

Let me ask another question; whould you call a RTS/RPG-Hybrid a RTS/RPG hybrid? As, to be RPG there has to be convo's and small groups, and usually the RPG in RTS mean that some have stats and an inventory?

 

I'm not even sure what you're asking me here. For a game to be considered an RPG or (whatever)/RPG hybrid, the stats/skills need to play a vital role. The player is required to "level up" in order to proceed, otherwise they won't be powerful enough to carry on in the game.

 

Now; back to Deus Ex. Note the word "hybrid". Wouldn't the "avoid all enemies" be in the RPG part of this hybrid? So because you can go "stealthy" and "violent" it is FPS(Violent path)/RPG(Stealth Path)?

 

Stealth is not an RPG element. I consider stealth part of the action genre, though I feel it kinda fits uncomfortably, especially when you use stealth to avoid action, or more specifically, combat.

 

I consider Deus Ex an action/adventure with RPG elements because:

 

Action: This comes in the form of dealing with enemies. You can do so in typical shooter fashion, though you have the option of using non-lethal means as well as lethal, when shooters typically only offer lethal. You can also use stealth, either to avoid your enemy or incapacitate them (again, lethal or non-lethal options.

 

Adventure: This comes in the form of exploration and dealing with NPCs, and doing all the little asks like hacking and lockpicking and using computers. Adventure elements typically get dumped in with RPG elements.

 

RPG elements: The stats/skills, which is the one thing that seperates the RPG genre from all other genres, though RPG elements are now common in pretty much every type of game out there.

[BattleCookiee]

And some offer ways beyond shooting and such.

 

If a game offers core gameplay beyond shooting then it's not a shooter.

 

Disagreed. This may be the case with a "pure shooter", but FPS is in my terms shooting/attacking from a First Person View on other people, where the death of an enemy is player-skill (aim) dependant, and the player has to make sure that he has ammo, or gets less health than 0.

Deus Ex has all of this.

It doesn't matter that you are not forced to shoot around you, the fact that it is a obvious possibility makes it that is this way...

 

Like I said there is "shooting" in DX.

 

There is shooting in lots of games. Shooting doesn't make the game a shooter, unless it makes up the core gameplay. If it's just one part of a greater whole, or entirely (or mostly avoidable) then it's not a shooter.

 

Take Omikron: The Nomad Soul, for instance. It feature first-person shooting, much more required than in DX, but this isn't enough to classify it as a shooter as it also features one on one melee fighting and adventure gaming, which makes it an anction/adventure. If it had stats, it's be an action/adventure with RPG elements, just like DX.

 

Never played Omikron, and no, there is not "shooting in lots of games". Alot of games on the PC these days are shooters, I can agree with such a statement...

If there is lots of shooting "possible" in almost every lvl of the game and when there is an arsenal available to do so, it is a FPS.

If it is just a few times ingame it is more a "mini-game"..., and if it is a "mini-game" (like SA's Dancing) the game won't be qualified by that game's actions/genre...

 

If you don't avoid anybody and kill everybody it might include more than any other FPS on the market.

 

Even if a game features better first-person firearms based combat than any FPS on the market, it doesn't make that game an FPS unless that combat is the core gameplay component.

 

Well, if a game features alot of weapons, a first person view and loads of killable enemies in every level, it is a FPS in my book, even if you can avoid these enemies if you really want to...

 

Anyway, Deus Ex is also no RPG, well, in your way of seeing genres.

 

As I've already said, I see DX as an action/adventure with RPG elements (and DX:IW as just an action/adventure). The reason I say it has RPG elements, rather than classifying it as an RPG hyrid, it because, as you said before, you don't have to upgrade your skills. It'd make for a more difficult game, but it'd doable.

 

Action (The FPS part) with adventure (The RPG part). You are making it alot longer, while it still means the same to me... or am I mistaken?

FPS/RPG-Hybrid would fit the description for DX nicely; no need to add action (as that is inside FPS) or adventure (as that is in RPG), nor adding "with RPG elements"...

The fact that you don't have to doesn't make it not not have it. The fact that you can avoid the RPG-stats doesn't mean it ISN'T an RPG. The fact that you can do without shooting everybody doesn't mean you can't do so...FPS style.

 

Let me ask another question; whould you call a RTS/RPG-Hybrid a RTS/RPG hybrid? As, to be RPG there has to be convo's and small groups, and usually the RPG in RTS mean that some have stats and an inventory?

 

I'm not even sure what you're asking me here. For a game to be considered an RPG or (whatever)/RPG hybrid, the stats/skills need to play a vital role. The player is required to "level up" in order to proceed, otherwise they won't be powerful enough to carry on in the game.

 

But, it is a RTS. There is no lvl-ing up and the heroes won't likely be the same you meet later. Could be some of the RTS's missions are RPG type around a hero, and around a small storyline. Would that be RTS, RPG or Hybrid? Since (probably) RTS is the main goal can be just wave away the fact it also has RPG-elements (since: You don't have to use it... not the main goal) etc...?

 

Now; back to Deus Ex. Note the word "hybrid". Wouldn't the "avoid all enemies" be in the RPG part of this hybrid? So because you can go "stealthy" and "violent" it is FPS(Violent path)/RPG(Stealth Path)?

 

Stealth is not an RPG element. I consider stealth part of the action genre, though I feel it kinda fits uncomfortably, especially when you use stealth to avoid action, or more specifically, combat.

 

I consider Deus Ex an action/adventure with RPG elements because:

 

Action: This comes in the form of dealing with enemies. You can do so in typical shooter fashion, though you have the option of using non-lethal means as well as lethal, when shooters typically only offer lethal. You can also use stealth, either to avoid your enemy or incapacitate them (again, lethal or non-lethal options.

 

Adventure: This comes in the form of exploration and dealing with NPCs, and doing all the little asks like hacking and lockpicking and using computers. Adventure elements typically get dumped in with RPG elements.

 

RPG elements: The stats/skills, which is the one thing that seperates the RPG genre from all other genres, though RPG elements are now common in pretty much every type of game out there.

 

Same I could say. Shooting people down in FP isn't action.

My definition of action would be a timed event needing a quick brain or buttonmashing, which would (see Fahrenheit for examples)

1) As said, be timed...

2) Will result in a proceeding or a game over

3) Do NOT make up most of the game...always part of another genre action scenes are...

Your action; alot of games also give you that option. Unlike DX it can even make a difference (in DX dead and unconscious are almost the same...)

In DX you have 2 ways to get around; namely

1) Killing. Done FPS (and like I say before; the fact you can go without using it doesn't mean it isn't there)

2) Stealth. Once again uses the same FPS system. Unlike a Splintercell you can't use shadows or such, use enemies against themselves (shields, open doors). No, the only point in DX of stealth is walking around like option 1 without actually pulling the trigger (or use mouse button 1 in this case)

Your adventure: I really don't see DX as adventure. What is the adventure? What you define as adventure could be my "action" though. Under adventure I expect more like walking around, solving puzzles and combining items to proceed.

Your RPG-Elements: The stats yes. Giving the Shooter-stuff a little less "player skill" and a bit more "PC-skill"

 

Couldn't handle all that quotes All the bold lines in the quotes are the things I said in my previous post and Hell Kitty quoted...

Edited November 9, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[alanschu]

"Given your lack of control over your squad, I'd say it's probably not a Tactical Squad game."

 

Fine, it's just a turn-based tactical combat game then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Sorry, you are right. Deus Ex definitely isn't a FPS. My bad....

 

 

 

As for Kitty, how do you tranquilize Howard without shooting him with something?

 

 

Whatever....this has gotten stupid. When the developer of the game classifies it as such, in addition to 99.9% of the gaming media, community, and so forth, I'm willing to take their opinion on it rather than someone else's anal retentiveness over semantics for no other reason than trying to be obtuse.

Edited November 9, 2005 by alanschu

[Calax]

If you play right on any FPS you will never have to kill anyone either... (except for the bosses which can be explained away with the Gunther Navarre thing) you just run like a little girl from level to level and hope to high heaven that your enviroment will do your work for you.

 

Deus Ex is a FPS because unless you are a REALLY REALLY good player you will wind up killing >15 opponents.

 

And Darque why did you use the all purpose bbq tool? why not use the anti bot demolisher tool?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

And some offer ways beyond shooting and such.

 

If a game offers core gameplay beyond shooting then it's not a shooter.

 

Disagreed. This may be the case with a "pure shooter", but FPS is in my terms shooting/attacking from a First Person View on other people, where the death of an enemy is player-skill (aim) dependant, and the player has to make sure that he has ammo, or gets less health than 0.

Deus Ex has all of this.

 

Morrowind, Vampire: Bloodlines and Kitty's example, Omikron, also have these but they barely qualify as 'shooters'. In fact, the above requirements that fit your own interpretation exist in them as well. Yet in those games anyone can notice that there are more varied gameplay styles other than shooting things and that they do not make up the core gameplay of the games - for no other reason than if shooting was removed from them there would still be other ways to progress in the games. If Deus Ex did not sport any shooting at all, or if it was removed, it would still be able to be played and completed; on the other hand, remove the shooting component from a bare bones FPS and you can not complete it, let alone play it. This is what distinguishes Deus Ex, and the above mentioned games, from FPSers: they all have more to them than standard shooting, FPS segments, or the ability to play them as a FPS.

 

 

It doesn't matter that you are not forced to shoot around you, the fact that it is a obvious possibility makes it that is this way...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And why does this apply to shooting and not other elements present in the game? What you've just said can easilly be applied and extended to other gameplay aspects of the game, ie, it doesn't matter that you are not forced to sneak or talk your way out, the fact that they are obvious possibilities makes them that way. And because they are obvious possibilities it boggles the mind why people fixate on only one of them - the shooting - in order to classify the game.

[BattleCookiee]

^ Agreed on Vampire, already said that myself.

Omikron: Dunno

Morrowing: Negatory here, I said that a kill was player-dependant (and you have to aim and such). In MW it is totally Skill Dependant...

 

And if shooting was removed from DX there isn't alot of DX left... actually, there is nothing anymore (like you say with FPS)

 

In DX there are not alot of ways to "talk yourself" out of combat situations. A lot less than the options to talk yourself "into combat" atleast.

 

Also; yes, you can sneak around. Does anybody deny that fact. But first person sneaking isn't a genre (unlike Splintercell and MGS's third persons "stealth games")

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Morrowing: Negatory here, I said that a kill was player-dependant (and you have to aim and such). In MW it is totally Skill Dependant...

 

Why do you agree with the same assessment of Vampire and not of Morrowind when both need the player to aim and the character to hit? The player *has* to aim at his targets in both games, then expect the character to hit based on its own skill set.

 

 

And if shooting was removed from DX there isn't alot of DX left... actually, there is nothing anymore (like you say with FPS)

 

As a player who has finished the game without killing anyone beyond the required kills - both of which can be made without shooting - you'll excuse me if I doubt there's "not much more to the game beyond shooting". The remaining stealth, environment manipulation and character interaction segments not only allow for completion of the game, they are also an equally valid alternative to only shooting my way trough.

 

 

But first person sneaking isn't a genre (unlike Splintercell and MGS's third persons "stealth games")

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sidestepping the first and third person distinction, Splinter Cell, Metal Geal Solid, Thief and Deus Ex share the same scheme of combining stealth and shooting, and for the most part all of them allow the player to choose and play trough them either way. Why is 'firstperson sneaking' only a genre in those two games when all four allow the same? Doesn't seem like there's a good reason for this distinction.

[Meshugger]

In response to the first poster: Yes, you're OBLIGED to play Deus Ex on the PC. The PS2 version had funky controls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Will do

 

What other games would you fine folk recommend, I dont really care what genre it is I pretty much like most.

 

But I am keen on good gameplay, and a good story

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

- If you want a great story and dialogue, then it's definately Planescape: Torment (eventhough i haven't finished it yet).

 

- If you want great atmosphere and suspense, try System Shock 2.

 

- If you want to try one of the best FPS that's out there, try Unreal 1 or Halo 1.

[metadigital]

Morrowing: Negatory here, I said that a kill was player-dependant (and you have to aim and such). In MW it is totally Skill Dependant...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you agree with the same assessment of Vampire and not of Morrowind when both need the player to aim and the character to hit? The player *has* to aim at his targets in both games, then expect the character to hit based on its own skill set.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm glad you asked.

 

I have seen an

[Gabrielle]

Meta is never wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But than again the Earth was proven not to be flat after all.

[metadigital]

I not wrong in this case because hell kitty is using an exclusive definition to make a fallacious conclusion.

 

* All dogs are mammals.

* No cats are dogs.

* Therefore, no cats are mammals.

 

This is called an Aristotelian illicit major logical fallacy.

[Arkan]

I not wrong in this case because hell kitty is using an exclusive definition to make a fallacious conclusion.

 

    * All dogs are mammals.

    * No cats are dogs.

    * Therefore, no cats are mammals.

 

This is called an Aristotelian illicit major logical fallacy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Spot on, spot on.