cbs poll on evolution vs. creationism

[random evil guy]

infidels is, in spite of its name, a very good and informative site. of course, they are biased, but they always argue objectively and back their claims up with solid evidence.

[Walsingham]

I've come in a bit late, so I'll admit I haven't read all the posts before now. My apologies.

 

1) I feel pretty relaxed about people's beliefs when they keep to themselves. However, education is not keeping to yourself. So go ahead and believe in creationism all you want, but stay away from public schools because:

 

2) Abandoning evolutionary theory in favour of a faith based explanation means abandoning the scientific paradigm. Without the scientific paradigm the progress of all learned endeavour gets shot in the knees. Where I come from this would be bad.

 

3) I thought the USA was supposed to break away from all this church with state business. Because of, you know, all the hate crimes and witch burnings, and persecution and so on. Teach creationism and you go a step closer than I think is advisable.

 

4) If it is OK to teach that God 'magically' created us all a certain way in seven days, then am I mad if I believe my cat created the world in seven days? I have no less proof than you. What if I believe _I_ am god, and have the right to do whatever I like?

[Surreptishus]

3) I thought the USA was supposed to break away from all this church with state business. Because of, you know, all the hate crimes and witch burnings, and persecution and so on. Teach creationism and you go a step closer than I think is advisable.

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I think with a self proclaimed born again christian as pres-o-dent. The Christian lobbies have gotten more balls to come out of the woodork and push for silly rules.

[Nartwak]

There is no evolution, only Zuul.

[Archmonarch]

There is no evolution, only Zuul.

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Are you the Keymaster?

[Surreptishus]

There is no evolution, only Zuul.

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Are you the Keymaster?

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I'm a friend of his, he told me to meet him here.

[Archmonarch]

Yeah, my friend, the Gatekeeper - See her standing over there? - asked me to meet him for her. She's not a huge fan of blind dates.

[Blank]

heard of the 'tyre prophecy'...? if you really take everything in the bible literally, the tyre prophecy is definately wrong..

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/.../2/992tyre.html

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For this Trye thing, I have an explanation which i believe to be very viable and logical. First, if you want to read some Bible, I recommend the book of Jonah. It is very short and it is also where I will be deriving my explanation from.

 

Jonah 1:1-2=The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."

Okay, so we see here that God is commissioning Jonah to preach against the city of Nineveh because it is such a bad place. Jonah, being a Jewish nationalist, and wanting the Assyrians (an enemy of Israel) to be destroyed, did not want to preach against them and tell them to repent (because he knew God would be compassionate if they did so (Jonah 4:1-2= But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.)

 

So, Jonah flees from God (or tries to) and goes down to Joppa, which is on the coast of Israel, finds a ship, and heads for Tarshish (Jonah 1:3. now guys, if you ever try to run away from God, common sense tells you not to go over water in a ship. That makes it too easy for God to stop you. jk). Next, in Jonah 1:4-17 God sends a storm and everybody on the ship finds out that Jonah is disobeying God, so Jonah has them throw him off the ship to stop them all from dying and he gets swallowed by a big fishy fish (if he didn't get swallowed then he probably would've drowned, neh? so this fish sent from God was a good thing for Jonah.)

 

While in the fish, Jonah prays to God a prayer of repentance and the fish barfs him up on the coast (Jonah 2).

 

Jonah at this point is probably pretty grody looking. He has been living in the stomach juices of a fish for 3 days and nights, so his skin is probably bleached and his hair (if he has any left) is probably bleached too. He would be quite a sight.

 

God tells Jonah to go preach against Ninevah again and this time Jonah does so. The first time he preaches against them, the king and people respond and put on sackcloth and fast (signs of mourning). Now here is the main point of my post here: Jonah 3:10= When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

 

Oh look! wow, God shows compassion and relents from His wrath. (sarcasm->) NO! HE SAID HE WOULD DO SOMETHING AND NOW HE HAS TO DO IT BECAUSE THE BIBLE HAS TO CONTRADICT ITSELF!!!! um... no. So my explanation is simple. God is forgiving, and it could be that when the people of Trye heard Ezekial's message, they chose to repent and God chose to forgive them.

 

Many years later, the Ninevites reverted to their old wicked ways and God brought the destruction upon them then. So they did eventually get destroyed, but 300 years later or something like that. Oh look! wow, Trye too was destroyed many years after the prophecy said. Maybe they repented, and God relented for a while until they didn't repent and became evil again and then God took them out. (sarcasm ->) NO! BECAUSE THE BIBLE HAS TO CONTRADICT ITSELF SO THATS NOT POSSIBLE!!!!!!! um... no.

 

Anyway, my explanation is very reasonable and logical and does not involve any twists on words or whatever to work. I am sure anybody would agree that this scenario is a viable possibility for Trye and actually makes a lot of sense. Sorry if i offended anybody again, and i am not judging you either.

[random evil guy]

1st of all, tyre was never destroyed, as the prophecy said. it is still here. so either the prophecy is dead wrong or meant to be interpreted figuratively(which is highly unlikely).

 

2nd, you're interpreting the bible. i thought you said you took everything literally.

[Blank]

thing is, i don't mind christians as long as they aren't fundamentalist nutjobs who take everything in the bible literally.

 

contradictions in the bible:

 

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html

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Most of the things in the first link are really simple to explain. for example, was Abraham justified by faith or by works? Well, his works showed his faith. so saying he was justified by his works in this case would mean that he is justified by his faith. (sarcasm ->) NO! BECAUSE ABRAHAM COULD'VE JUST SAT AROUND AND HAD FAITH WITHOUT HAVING TO DO ANYTHING. AND THAT SHOWS HIS FAITH BECAUSE HE IS NOT GIVING UP ANYTHING OF VALUE TO GOD AND SO DOING NOTHING IS WHAT HE COULD'VE DONE! um...no. By doing the works (taking his only son Isaac to be sacrificed), he showed his faithfulness to God (God asked him to do this and stopped him from killing his son because He is not a sick God. and then he provided a ram for the sacrifice instead.)

 

I have to go eat breakfast now, so I'll be back later and try to defend my reasoning for my beliefs then.

[Kaftan Barlast]

... Oden impaled himself on his spear gungnir on Yggdrasil and hung dead for many days and nights to find wisdom ...

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1. I didn't know it was lost. (Badump-tish!)

2. Did he find it, or is this why Odin hasn't been heard of since Christianity "converted" the Nordic heathens ...?

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1. It was.. by your mum! (Ka-dish!)

 

2. He did find wisdom after his quests. I dont remeber if he learned from all of them or if it specificly was when he drank of the water in the spring of widom by the roots of Yggdrasil(which he had to sacrifice his eye to do)

[Lare Kikkeli]

heard of the 'tyre prophecy'...? if you really take everything in the bible literally, the tyre prophecy is definately wrong..

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/.../2/992tyre.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For this Trye thing, I have an explanation which i believe to be very viable and logical. First, if you want to read some Bible, I recommend the book of Jonah. It is very short and it is also where I will be deriving my explanation from.

 

Jonah 1:1-2=The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."

Okay, so we see here that God is commissioning Jonah to preach against the city of Nineveh because it is such a bad place. Jonah, being a Jewish nationalist, and wanting the Assyrians (an enemy of Israel) to be destroyed, did not want to preach against them and tell them to repent (because he knew God would be compassionate if they did so (Jonah 4:1-2= But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.)

 

So, Jonah flees from God (or tries to) and goes down to Joppa, which is on the coast of Israel, finds a ship, and heads for Tarshish (Jonah 1:3. now guys, if you ever try to run away from God, common sense tells you not to go over water in a ship. That makes it too easy for God to stop you. jk). Next, in Jonah 1:4-17 God sends a storm and everybody on the ship finds out that Jonah is disobeying God, so Jonah has them throw him off the ship to stop them all from dying and he gets swallowed by a big fishy fish (if he didn't get swallowed then he probably would've drowned, neh? so this fish sent from God was a good thing for Jonah.)

 

While in the fish, Jonah prays to God a prayer of repentance and the fish barfs him up on the coast (Jonah 2).

 

Jonah at this point is probably pretty grody looking. He has been living in the stomach juices of a fish for 3 days and nights, so his skin is probably bleached and his hair (if he has any left) is probably bleached too. He would be quite a sight.

 

God tells Jonah to go preach against Ninevah again and this time Jonah does so. The first time he preaches against them, the king and people respond and put on sackcloth and fast (signs of mourning). Now here is the main point of my post here: Jonah 3:10= When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

 

Oh look! wow, God shows compassion and relents from His wrath. (sarcasm->) NO! HE SAID HE WOULD DO SOMETHING AND NOW HE HAS TO DO IT BECAUSE THE BIBLE HAS TO CONTRADICT ITSELF!!!! um... no. So my explanation is simple. God is forgiving, and it could be that when the people of Trye heard Ezekial's message, they chose to repent and God chose to forgive them.

 

Many years later, the Ninevites reverted to their old wicked ways and God brought the destruction upon them then. So they did eventually get destroyed, but 300 years later or something like that. Oh look! wow, Trye too was destroyed many years after the prophecy said. Maybe they repented, and God relented for a while until they didn't repent and became evil again and then God took them out. (sarcasm ->) NO! BECAUSE THE BIBLE HAS TO CONTRADICT ITSELF SO THATS NOT POSSIBLE!!!!!!! um... no.

 

Anyway, my explanation is very reasonable and logical and does not involve any twists on words or whatever to work. I am sure anybody would agree that this scenario is a viable possibility for Trye and actually makes a lot of sense. Sorry if i offended anybody again, and i am not judging you either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

never trust a guy who quotes the bible. christians are so damn aggressive with their faith, always trying to convert everyone.

[Hurlshort]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051104/ap_on_sc/vatican_science

 

I was pretty glad to hear this. Clearly the Vatican is keeping an open mind about some stuff. This was almost as great as when the Vatican admitted that homosexuality has a genetic link and people should not be condemned because they are born this way. Of course, they later backtracked and said if you are born homosexual then you need to live a life of celibacy and repentance.

[Commissar]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051104/ap_on_sc/vatican_science

 

I was pretty glad to hear this.  Clearly the Vatican is keeping an open mind about some stuff.  This was almost as great as when the Vatican admitted that homosexuality has a genetic link and people should not be condemned because they are born this way.  Of course, they later backtracked and said if you are born homosexual then you need to live a life of celibacy and repentance. 

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Good on Cardinal Poupard.

 

Edit: I'm not kidding, either. This is one of those things that really brightens your day. The Catholic church arguing for reason in the face of potential fundamentalism. Think I'll have a beer and toast the Vatican.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Commissar

[Azarkon]

Too bad most of fundamentalists in the US are Protestant, not Catholic.

[Baley]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13...1811332,00.html

[Blank]

never trust a guy who quotes the bible. christians are so damn aggressive with their faith, always trying to convert everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lol. sorry if i sound threatening. you don't have to trust me, but that's why i am quoting the Bible, so that you don't have to listen to some other random guy talk about his version of religion/faith/worldview. I am just presenting the Bible into this discussion about evolution and creationism. I didn't think that would be such a bad thing...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13...1811332,00.html

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This comes from that article: "The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible."

 

Just because the Catholic Church in the past has adopted theories that have since been proven wrong (copernican view of the solar system) doesn't mean that the Bible is now touting the same views. The Bible doesn't delve into those types of things. Just because the Catholic Church in the past made decisions to condenm so-called "heretics" like Galileo, doesn't mean that the Bible says Galileo is condenmed on the basis of his theories.

 

Another part of that article:" They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its 'intransigent intolerance' and to warn of 'significant dangers' involved in a fundamentalist approach.

Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Blank

[Gabrielle]

To quote a great man, "god is dead" Nietzsche.

[Baley]

God cannot die,the concept will exist as long as humans fear their own wretched demise.

 

Man made god.

[Gabrielle]

God cannot die,the concept will exist as long as humans fear their own wretched demise.

 

Man made god.

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Which proves how stupid the human race is.

[Petay]

^ I agree.

[Pidesco]

To quote a great man, "god is dead" Nietzsche.

 

 

"Nietzsche is dead.", God :ph34r:

[Walsingham]

God cannot die,the concept will exist as long as humans fear their own wretched demise.

 

Man made god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which proves how stupid the human race is.

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Speak for yourself, monkey man!

 

*arr arr arr*

 

For tenpence worth: I think a lot more crimes are committed for want of religiously formed morals than are committed in the name of religion. How many murders are committed around the world because of theft, adultery and so on? And how many are committed for religion?

[Gabrielle]

God cannot die,the concept will exist as long as humans fear their own wretched demise.

 

Man made god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which proves how stupid the human race is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Speak for yourself, monkey man!

 

*arr arr arr*

 

For tenpence worth: I think a lot more crimes are committed for want of religiously formed morals than are committed in the name of religion. How many murders are committed around the world because of theft, adultery and so on? And how many are committed for religion?

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How many die because of religion? Just look to the Middle East and see all the terrorism that happens there. Than it spreads over to the West, to get back at the infidel christians. Let us step back into history. The Crusades, The Burning times of the "witch" trials, the conquest of the New World are prime examples of the crimes of religion.

 

EDIT

 

I should say a religion based on a god.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Gabrielle

[Walsingham]

*nods*

 

But at the same time, many hundreds of times more people die from 'domestic' murder than political murder. The very fact that we even care that our felow men are dying could be attributed in part to instructions from our religions...

 

*lofts point back across the net*