Why twitch gamers suck

[Gabrielle]

It is.  I miss the days of Fallout.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

fallout was a one of a kind game, to me at least. There will be no other like that.

[alanschu]

On the plus side, there's other new ideas that just haven't been thought up yet.

 

When Fallout came out it was new and shnazzy. Nothing stopping the future from holding other such things.

[Plano Skywalker]

When it comes to combat, I personally prefer what I will call ACTIVE TURN BASED (BG and KOTOR-style) over true turn based or true real time.

 

However, when you use active turn based, AI becomes all the more important. AI is the weakest link in that kind of combat. If they can give us really good combat AI, then, without question in my mind, active turn based is the best.

 

True turn based takes away from the cimematic feel that 3d games pretty much have to have.

[Atreides]

How was it not be considered a traditional CRPG.

 

Turn base combat, rules system that played like PnP, isometric view, and a good story.  What wasn't traditional about it?  If you say that it was sci fi there was plenty of good sci fi CRPGs prior to Fallout and decently written PnP RPGs as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What the... how are those elements besides "a good story" integeral to a "traditional CRPG" - and by that an extention to CRPGs that you like?

 

You're as bad as those religious fundamentalists that you claim to abhor - getting caught up in details while missing the essence of the point. The main requirements to a good RPG in my opinion is a story the player(s) enjoy, decision choices and character development. Not something like a particular PNP rule system, setting, turn based combat or isometric view.

[Child of Flame]

Here is an interesting article. From The Escapist website.

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/8

There's a button at the bottom of the page for the text version.

 

Here is an excerpt:

Death to the Games Industry, Part I

Greg Costikyan

 

    "The machinery of gaming has run amok... An industry that was once the most innovative and exciting artistic field on the planet has become a morass of drudgery and imitation... It is time for revolution!"

 

    - "Designer X" in the Scratchware Manifesto

 

When "Designer X" wrote those words back in 2000, the industry, to the degree that it took any note whatsoever, dismissed them as irrelevant ravings. Jessica Mulligan wrote that the Scratchware Manifesto was "naive in the extreme," and obviously written by an industry outsider - and was quite surprised to learn that I was Designer X. Of course, things have only gotten worse since 2000, and the industry - or at least, developers - have started to agree.

 

Two years ago, speaking at a conference in the UK, Warren Spector said "The publishers have to die, or we are all doomed" - to cheers. And this year, at GDC, I ranted on the problem - and received a standing ovation.

 

What is the problem? And is there any way to address it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's a really good article.

 

I'd never read it in it's entirety till now though. Just bits and pieces quoted here and there on the internets.

[Walsingham]

I literally had a brainwave (or so it felt).

 

Go into marketing. kill them all, harvest the organs. Hire starving writers, and obese code-monkeys. Feed both delicious baby-back ribs. Wait for superb game. If game does not seem to be shaping up as superb, show them the organ-emptied husks of the dead marketing guys in the broom closet.

[Child of Flame]

I literally had a brainwave (or so it felt).

 

Go into marketing. kill them all, harvest the organs. Hire starving writers, and obese code-monkeys. Feed both delicious baby-back ribs. Wait for superb game. If game does not seem to be shaping up as superb, show them the organ-emptied husks of the dead marketing guys in the broom closet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Why waste capital feeding them food made from aminals.

 

Feed them marketer parts! (w00t)

[Diogo Ribeiro]

How was it not be considered a traditional CRPG.

 

Turn base combat, rules system that played like PnP, isometric view, and a good story.  What wasn't traditional about it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Pretty much none of those is a requirement for the CRPG genre, much less traditional elements. If you go with tradition you'll find nearly the opposite of what you pine for in some of the first CRPGs out there. Back then turnbased shared the same space as realtime and phasebased; isometric, firstperson and 'bird's eye view' were all contemporary; and a "good story" often translated into subtle variations of Doom's "kill thing, find key, kill big thingie, you win".

 

Also, much as I like turnbased it isn't required for a CRPG. You only need a combat system that, like turnbased, allows a distinct enough separation between character and gamer; otherwise we enter the usual situation of not playing a character but instead playing myself (ye olde character skill vs. player reflex). Turnbased, phasebased and some implementations of realtime manage that.

[Musopticon?]

'Player is back!

[Diogo Ribeiro]

No I'm not.

[Musopticon?]

You were gone, weren't you?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'm still gone. I just stumbled upon an internet cafe of sorts and managed to come by yesterday and today to post here and some other places. I'll disappear again in two or three minutes.

 

Cheers.

[Musopticon?]

Well, good to see you. Take care.

[Rhomal]

I like Rhomal, and I normally dig his rants.  But I;m with the masses here in that I don't care for this rant, nor the tone of it.

 

I agree with the spirit of it however.

 

While I'm not opposed to innovations, change, first-person or 3d worlds in RPGs, I would rather that entire RPG genre didn't all suddenly become FPS clones with weak RPG elements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As long as you still love me, in the end thats all that matters

 

On a serious note, I really couldnt care less if ppl agree with me or not, the point of all my commentaries is to stir debate and get the gears in our heads that dont get enough use too turn a bit.

 

Without debate and discussion and re-evaluating where we are at as a community, we are, as history has proven time and time again, will just become stagnet and die a slow death as we are run over by other gaming sub-groups.

 

Agree with me or not, as long as you become part of the process rather then watching for the sidelines I feel I did a good thing.

[Rhomal]

The wierd thing is that Rhomal complains because some developers didn't evolve, but at the same time complains at those that did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then you need to re-read the article.

 

I pat on the back the likes of Deus Ex and Bloodlines. The, IMO, successful merging of 2 genres. Moving forward with technology is great. But deluting the CRPG so it more resembles a twitch game isnt what I consider 'evolving' or moving forward on a positive note.

[GhostofAnakin]

I pat on the back the likes of Deus Ex and Bloodlines. The, IMO, successful merging of 2 genres.  Moving forward with technology is great. But deluting the CRPG so it more resembles a twitch game isnt what I consider 'evolving' or moving forward on a positive note.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Out of curiosity, why do you feel Bloodlines achieved this evolution, but you don't cite Jade Empire with the same credit? I've played both, and I'd say JE's combat is less "twitch" based than Bloodlines for the simple reason that if you press the "attack" button in JE you'll hit something (it's autotargetted), but unless you have the cursor over your enemy in Bloodlines you'll be swinging at air.

 

I'm just curious why you applaud Bloodlines for amalgamating the RPG and FPS genre in a positive way, but don't really mention JE in the same breath.

[alanschu]

The wierd thing is that Rhomal complains because some developers didn't evolve, but at the same time complains at those that did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then you need to re-read the article.

 

I pat on the back the likes of Deus Ex and Bloodlines. The, IMO, successful merging of 2 genres. Moving forward with technology is great. But deluting the CRPG so it more resembles a twitch game isnt what I consider 'evolving' or moving forward on a positive note.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

What constitutes the successful merging of two genres? Many people swear that Deus Ex is NOT an RPG for example, but just an FPS that has some RPG elements. And how is Deus Ex and Bloodlines not part of the dilution problem? Both games are both much more twitch based than many other RPG games.

 

Or is it just a case of "I like these two games, so I'll consider them appropriate achievements because I've declared myself some sort of authority and what is or is not an acceptable merging of genres."

 

 

Ironically, first person perspective in RPGs is older than the FPS genre itself.

[Rhomal]

To address both in one post:

 

JE is a typical console fighting game. Thats why I dont see it as anything more then that. I will admit I never played it (nor do I have any interest in it) but from reading the reviews I dont see anything that makes it more that what it is. I think its a well done fighting game granted. But at the core its not much different then if you bought the latest mortal kombat.

 

Why do I put DE and Bloodlines above JE?

 

Correct me if I am wrong but from what I have read on JE the following is not possible/seriously implemented in the game:

 

a. several ways to get around many/most obstacles other then combat

b. your actions have a noticable effect on the game world

c. your stats effect dialog and dialog options/NPC reactions

d. depending on your choices, several endings.

e. strong story with depth.

 

I think the above are key points of any good CRPG. Wait a sec... didnt a hightly praised to this day crpg have all those elements too? Might have heard of it, was called fallout.

 

I do not beleive FP or 3rd person view makes a CRPG or not. I think its how those views are used that matters.

 

As for the snyde comment, of course I do not think I am some CRPG god. I am just a guy who is expressing his opinion, is that not allowed? I dont call or imply such when you post a opinion I disagree with. Nor am I stopping you from putting up a site and posting your own commentary. If you dont like mine so much I INVITE you to do the same.

[GhostofAnakin]

I will admit I never played it (nor do I have any interest in it) but from reading the reviews I dont see anything that makes it more that what it is. I think its a well done fighting game granted. But at the core its not much different then if you bought the latest mortal kombat.

 

Then your opinion of it can't really be considered valid, can it? You admit to never having played it yet feel you can make an educated comparison between it and Bloodlines, and also make a definite (which is what you did) statement about what kind of game it is. That's a bit arrogant don't you think?

 

Correct me if I am wrong but from what I have read on JE the following is not possible/seriously implemented in the game:

 

a. several ways to get around many/most obstacles other then combat

b. your actions have a noticable effect on the game world

c. your stats effect dialog and dialog options/NPC reactions

d. depending on your choices, several endings.

e. strong story with depth.

 

I think the above are key points of any good CRPG. Wait a sec... didnt a hightly praised to this day crpg have all those elements too? Might have heard of it, was called fallout.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

a. There were certain quests you could accomplish without combat. A decent amount, actually.

b. To a degree, yes. But admittedly not profound.

c. Yes, they do. You get different dialogue options depending on certain stats, as well as being able to get better deals on prices in shops.

d. 3 endings in JE depending on your choices, not to mention subtle differences in ending depending on romance options and whatnot.

e. Very good story.

 

So I'm not sure how it's just a console fighter game. I've played the game, you haven't. I have FIRST HAND experience what JE is and what it isn't, you have conjecture and speculation based upon reviews and posts you've read. But I'll leave it to you to decide who has a better educated opinion of it based on that fact alone.

[Volourn]

"JE is a typical console fighting game. Thats why I dont see it as anything more then that. I will admit I never played it (nor do I have any interest in it) but from reading the reviews I dont see anything that makes it more that what it is. I think its a well done fighting game granted. But at the core its not much different then if you bought the latest mortal kombat."

 

Sorry Rhomal; but that's your ignorance speaking. JE is not a typical fighting game. Not even close. It's exactly like BL wiith regards to combining RT semi stat based combat and role-playing.

 

At it';s core, JE is a role-playing game with RT combat. It's a role-playing game first and foremost. Anyone who has played it and is being honest would know that. To prove this, I'll quote the next aprt of your post and repsond further.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but from what I have read on JE the following is not possible/seriously implemented in the game:

 

"a. several ways to get around many/most obstacles other then combat"

 

99% of quests have multiple ways to complete them. Sure, many of thse do involved; but many quest have a non combat solution. I think the Ghost Orphan quest as one where the non combat option is the highly preferrable one.

 

"b. your actions have a noticable effect on the game world"

 

It sure does. By the end of the game, one wya or the other, the game world has changed for better or worse.

 

"c. your stats effect dialog and dialog options/NPC reactions"

 

They sure do. In fact, JE has three dialogue skills in which are used in almost all dialogues skills. Your 'ability scores' affect these skills.

 

"d. depending on your choices, several endings."

 

3 main endings. It also also tons of various endings for the pc himself, and the joinable (and non joinable) npcs as well for a grand total of LOTS of various endings.

 

P.S. Unlike the others I dont bash you for your opinions in this thead however your misconception of JE had to be taken to task. :D

 

 

"e. strong story with depth."

 

Well.. 'Strong story' is always an opinion; but comapred to 90% of rpgs JE cetrainly has one with depth. It's story is stronger than BL with mord epth though Bl does have more role-playing except in the last 3rd where JE'S role-playing is throughout the game and doesn't magically stop.

 

Also, JE's story is tronger than most of BIo's previous games including NWN (bothe xpansions), KOTOR1 (and KOTOR2 though it's not a BIO game), and even BG1. The funny thing is BIo's games are by and alrge considered role-playing games yet because JE's combat is 'kung fu' it's auto not depsite its strong role-playing. Go figure.

 

It sure crushes the depth of 'old skool rpgs' like Wizardry and the like.

 

But like I said this aprt of the qaution is mostly opinion and I'm bias supposedlt so meh. hwoever, teh other 4 parts are *not* opinion and are factual aspects of the game thata re undisputable.

 

 

"I think the above are key points of any good CRPG."

 

Yes, yes they are. And, JE has them all.

[mkreku]

And shoot'em up sequences to boot!!1one

[Volourn]

Yes, an added bonus! Though, admittedly, while fun, that particular mini game was not needed.

 

Of cours,e it doesn't change the fact that, indeed, JE is a role-playing game. Espicially if a game like Bl and its silly combat is considered a rpg. And, don't tell me I'm anti Troika so I'm bias as I actually like BL.

 

R00fles!

 

Though; it's nice to see you've admitted that JE has all those role-playing thinsg in them!

[Musopticon?]

It's bad that JE suffered from biowarenisms. Wasted potential.

[Volourn]

If you don't like 'Biowareisms' don't play their games as they'll ALL contain 'Biowareisms'. Did you expect otherwise? If you did, your mistake. You wasted your time.

[Baley]

MDK2 was Biowareisms free!

 

I think,I'm not sure what Biowareisms is.....