Full Voice Acting in RPGS

[roshan]

If fuill voiiice acting becoimies a requiirement foir fuituire games, then we will never see the making oif anoiither toirment, falloiuit oir a jeffersoini.

[Calax]

I didn't mind the voice acting in KotOR and such, but the voice actors they've been hiring for the english versions of Japanese RPGs have been atrocious.

 

Anyone here play Shadowhearts?

 

The first climax of the game as the mastermind behind it all escapes, your character stands on the top of the tower and screams to the world "Baconnnnnnnnnnn!"

 

If you don't laugh, you cry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or in FFX the forced laugh outside luca (i think)

[Child of Flame]

Not as disgusting as a three way with Leia, Jabba, and C3PO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was going to ask, but I don't want to know after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'll do you one worse...

 

I once came across a picture depicting that very liason!

[alanschu]

I skipped every one.

That's nice.

 

Since you put it so eloquently though: "Exceptions prove the rule."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It was a balance to your sweeping generalisation, not a new proposition to establish the contra position. I was pointing out the flaw in your all-encompassing statement about how you listened to them all (with the concommitant implication that "most people listen to most of them").

 

Sure the background comments in Deus Ex are good. But think how bad they'd be if they weren't done right.

 

Quality: good.

Crap: bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Of course. The same goes for writing. Reading a crappy line of dialogue doesn't make it any better than hearing the crappy line of dialogue. I could imagine how it would be if the lines sucked...but why? They didn't! I mean, imagine Game Y if it had sucked!

 

Quality: good Crap: bad applies to everything. I also made my assertion that most people do listen to them since voice acting is not going away. If most people skipped them, then developers and publishers wouldn't add them in!

 

Fortunately KOTOR's wasn't bad.

 

At the same time, I hear many people (not including myself) that love the voice acting in the original Resident Evil.

 

I've never made an assertion that voice acting automatically makes a game better regardless. I want everything to be done quality wise, and considering you already pointed out in a different thread how cheap voice acting is with respect to the total picture of game development, there's no reason why more lines cannot be voiced.

 

Is it a deal breaker? No. A good game is still a good game. A bad game with all the quality voice acting, and minute attention to detail graphically is still a bad game. A good game with those though becomes a great game.

 

Half-Life 2 is a game where I would have been content with the same, emotionless stares with the simple moving mouth for dialogue, much like the original Half-Life. It was a good game. But all the little details going into the characters, that ultimately are just fluff and not necessary to the game itself, contribute to the greater entertainment value of the game and make for ultimately a more entertaining experience. If the game had sucked I wouldn't have cared how realistically the faces were. Fluff doesn't make crap games good, but it does make good games great.

 

Since you like to play the imagination game, imagine System Shock 2 in Source (or Doom 3, or any modern engine). Seeing the drone with the pipe wrench casting off a beautiful shadow down the long corridor while you were out in the open without a weapon of your own would only add to the creepiness of the game. Furthermore, imagine System Shock 2 without the voice overs. I imagine reading those diary logs would have been just as thrilling of an experience.

 

 

I think a lot of the claims people make about not caring about graphics or sound or voice quality are in a position to make easy assertations because they know that things aren't like that anymore.

 

How many people would jump out of their seats for the ultimate in revolutionary gaming that was mute, and looked like this:

 

 

 

That's a screenshot of Ultima IV, and even Ender will vouch that I had never played the game before recently, and I was still able to play through it based on being a huge fan of VI and VII, and hearing how quality IV was. I enjoyed the game, but I know that there's many people that haven't played the game that would not be able to get past the interface nor the graphics. If KOTOR 3 came out looking like that, even if it was the bestest game ever I doubt 1% of the people on these boards that apparently love RPGs so much would even give it a second look.

 

 

As for Roshan, I think he's living in the past.

 

Considering games like Planescape: Torment don't make the required money for developers to stay in business, then I doubt we'd see one like it again anyways.

 

Imagine if Planescape: Torment did have quality full voice overs though......

 

 

I'd also suspect there'd be much less Bastila fans if she wasn't voiced by Jennifer Hale. People staring blankly at a screen while you read a line of dialogue don't illicit that type of emotion. Many of the lines by the romance characters in Baldur's Gate 2 are also voiced, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

[roshan]

I am noiti living in the past. Fuill voiiice acting juisit doiesnt poisitively affect my gaming experience in any way whatsoever.

 

And I suiippoisie Sin City was living in the past as well!

[alanschu]

No.

 

 

But you keep clamouring about how the games aren't like PS:T, Fallout, and whatnot.

 

 

And the reason why Sin City's artistic design works is because all movies ARE in colour. You can still just as well have the "only key people talk" artistic style, as your coveted Sin City example does just that (although I'd prefer Schindler's List).

 

You're really stretching things if you are trying to claim that Sin City is living in the past because of its artistic style of utilizing black and white. Never mind the graphic novel references

 

 

To restate, whether or not Voice Overs are here to stay, has no bearing on whether or not games like Fallout or PS:T will be made again. But hey, you're the one that things that secondary characters have voice overs so that we know what they sound like. If a game needs a talking head to let you know that you're coming up to a main character, then I think that that is BAD design. Let the game content tell me it's a main character, don't tip me off by letting me know it's a main character before I've even spoken to the person. I don't need to be held by the hand.

 

Do people play their DVDs with mute and subtitles on?

[Darque]

I'd like to point out that a Fallout or Fallout 2 remake with full voice acting would rock. :cool:

[213374U]

Do people play their DVDs with mute and subtitles on?

Game, set and match.

[metadigital]

Of course.  The same goes for writing.  Reading a crappy line of dialogue doesn't make it any better than hearing the crappy line of dialogue.  I could imagine how it would be if the lines sucked...but why?  They didn't!  I mean, imagine Game Y if it had sucked!

 

Quality: good  Crap: bad applies to everything.  I also made my assertion that most people do listen to them since voice acting is not going away.  If most people skipped them, then developers and publishers wouldn't add them in!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree that suits won't put bad dialogue into a game. It's on "the check-list" now, and suits don't actually play the games, so as long as it's there they don't care!

...

I've never made an assertion that voice acting automatically makes a game better regardless.  I want everything to be done quality wise, and considering you already pointed out in a different thread how cheap voice acting is with respect to the total picture of game development, there's no reason why more lines cannot be voiced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except if it makes the dialogue impracticably complex. How many people are going to bet for fully-voiced dialogue trees versus next generational graphics? That's the sort of complexity that would be necessary to add an actor's voice to thousands upon thousands of lines with slightly different variables. Permutations add up: four classes, three alignment choices and two actions for one character makes twenty four (four times three times two times one, or 4!) voice tracks for one dialogue. Multiply that by hundreds of dialogues and more options (say five classes and four alignment choices: lawful good, chaotic good, brute bully and sneaky evil), two actions, and you have 5!

[alanschu]

I disagree that suits won't put bad dialogue into a game. It's on "the check-list" now, and suits don't actually play the games, so as long as it's there they don't care!

 

But these same suits pay their market analysts big bux to determine the cost effectiveness of their solutions. If no one was listening to in game dialogue and just skipping it past, then there'd be no point in wasting the money on voice talent.

 

Except if it makes the dialogue impracticably complex. How many people are going to bet for fully-voiced dialogue trees versus next generational graphics? That's the sort of complexity that would be necessary to add an actor's voice to thousands upon thousands of lines with slightly different variables. Permutations add up: four classes, three alignment choices and two actions for one character makes twenty four (four times three times two times one, or 4!) voice tracks for one dialogue. Multiply that by hundreds of dialogues and more options (say five classes and four alignment choices: lawful good, chaotic good, brute bully and sneaky evil), two actions, and you have 5!

[metadigital]

...

I never said that I required voice acting to enjoy a game.  Voice acting, like all the other fluff in the game, is just a bonus that adds to the experience.  Like a basic sound effect or music, or high level details in graphics.  None of that stuff is critical to a game, in terms of its gameplay and game mechanics.  I didn't even have sound on my PC until after I had gotten TIE Fighter, and it was only because a friend of mine upgraded his Sound Blaster to a Sound Blaster 16 and he gave me his old one.  I loved TIE Fighter before that, but it made the experience that much better, both in game and during cutscenes, to have sound.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, you can put your keyboard down, now, Mr Schu. I think we have an agreement in principle.

[alanschu]

NEVER!

[metadigital]

I know you're part of the simulation! No human could be so relentless in their pursuit ...

[Petay]

NEVER!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, what an excellent link, thank you for reminding me of that.

[alanschu]

I know you're part of the simulation! No human could be so relentless in their pursuit ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

0111 1001 0110 1111 0111 0101 0010 0000 0110 1011 0110 1110 0110 1111 0111 0111 0010 0000 0110 1001 0111 0100 0010 0001 0010 0001 0010 0001

 

 

 

 

Seriously, TOMBS points to anyone that knows what I said :D

[Petay]

Ooh, Ooh, "you know it"?? :D

[alanschu]

Very nice. Now, did you need to find an ascii converter?

 

 

EDIT:

 

It's actually: you know it!!!

 

 

As a part of the simulation, I still award you 10 TOMBS points however.

[Petay]

Very nice.  Now, did you need to find an ascii converter?

 

 

EDIT:

 

It's actually:  you know it!!!

 

 

As a part of the simulation, I still award you 10 TOMBS points however.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, excellent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A very geeky friend helps

 

 

[Calax]

this went boom faster than a guy with an AtlasV strapped to his car...

[Gabrielle]

We are the Borg, you will be assimilated!

[213374U]

  We are the Borg, you will be assimilated!

Um, yes. What was your "desired post count", again?

 

"

[roshan]

No.

 

 

But you keep clamouring about how the games aren't like PS:T, Fallout, and whatnot.

 

 

And the reason why Sin City's artistic design works is because all movies ARE in colour.  You can still just as well have the "only key people talk" artistic style, as your coveted Sin City example does just that (although I'd prefer Schindler's List).

 

You're really stretching things if you are trying to claim that Sin City is living in the past because of its artistic style of utilizing black and white.  Never mind the graphic novel references

 

 

To restate, whether or not Voice Overs are here to stay, has no bearing on whether or not games like Fallout or PS:T will be made again.  But hey, you're the one that things that secondary characters have voice overs so that we know what they sound like.  If a game needs a talking head to let you know that you're coming up to a main character, then I think that that is BAD design.  Let the game content tell me it's a main character, don't tip me off by letting me know it's a main character before I've even spoken to the person.  I don't need to be held by the hand.

 

Do people play their DVDs with mute and subtitles on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Im noiti claiming that Sin City is living in the past. Buit if we uisied yoiuir loigic regarding games and apply it toi moivies then we woiiuild have toi coinicluide that. OIinly voiicing main characters in games is as muich oif an artistic style as sin citys uisie oifi coiiloiuirs.

 

Games like falloiuit did noit voiice specific characters in oirider toi let players knoiw that thoisie characters were impoiritant. It is quiiite oibvioiuis that tandi, being the leader oif the ncr, oir lynette, the leader oifi vauilt city, is an important character. Soii toi suiggest that these characters were voiiced soii that the player woiiuild knoiwo oif their impoirtance is ridicuiloiuis.

 

These characters were voiiced becauise the develoipers thoiuight that these characters woiiuild be moiire interesting if they were voiiiced. If a randoimi toiiwnspersoiini is voiiiced, it will noit make that character moiire interesting simply becauiise that character is still juisit a randoimi toiwnspersoiin. Hoiwever lynette being voiiiced added a loiti toi that encoiuinter. Same thing with oither voiiced npcs in oitiher bis/bioi games. If yoiui think that the develoipers voiiced these characters toii let the player knoiw that they were impoiritant, then yoiiui ahve coiimipletely missed the poiint oifi this artistic style.

[alanschu]

OIinly voiicing main characters in games is as muich oif an artistic style as sin citys uisie oifi coiiloiuirs.

 

I'd give you that....if games when Fallout came out all had voice acting.

 

 

Games like falloiuit did noit voiice specific characters in oirider toi let players knoiw that thoisie characters were impoiritant. It is quiiite oibvioiuis that tandi, being the leader oif the ncr, oir lynette, the leader oifi vauilt city, is an important character. Soii toi suiggest that these characters were voiiced soii that the player woiiuild knoiwo oif their impoirtance is ridicuiloiuis

 

Fallout 1 voiced Tandi, and upon meeting her father or her you would not have known she was an important character (Fallout 1, not Fallout 2).

 

It's a moot discussion anyways, as we don't know what BIS/Interplay would have done if they could have afforded the voice all the lines.

 

Sin City's is artistic because all movies are in colour now. How many would have lauded it's artistic sense if it was going up beside the very first movies that had full colour and the wow factor of the full colour? Wizard of Oz milked this like crazy, starting the movie in black and white, and then going BAM, look at all the beautiful colours.

 

Fallout's voice acting was cool, but imagine your reaction if every line in the game was spoken. To say that you wouldn't care is bogus based on hindsight IMO.

 

 

Furthermore, since you like to state that developers give secondary characters voices so that you can hear what they sound like, then Baldur's Gate has the same thing. When you initiate conversation with every character they make some sort of audible noise...it's just that their lines of dialogue aren't spoken. You still know what they sound like.

 

But imagine how alive the world would be if every person was voiced in quality....

[Azarkon]

I don't think it's even deniable that full voice acting, when done correctly, adds to the immersion factor of the game.

 

But the issue that I do see is that full voice acting has several drawbacks in terms of production, and they are significant ones:

 

1. Voice actors: are often inconvenient when not integrated within the development team, because under a contract based relationship, voice actors add to both the overhead of a project and can become a serious liability in terms of how far down the line the project may still be changed, as well as consistency of voice acting throughout a series.

 

2. No room for imagination: the standard argument of the cinematic medium vs. the literary medium - films let you see and let you hear, but in the process you're deprived of an opportunity to imagine the situation yourself. Some consider that a good thing, the death of literature as one further step in an evolutionary process. Others do not. IMO, it's foolish to preconceive film as being better than literature or vice versa, and yet the predominance of the cinematic medium in games ensures that preconception.

 

3. Player expectations: perhaps the biggest problem with full voice acting is the players who come to expect them. As mentioned in #1, VAs increase overhead and they lead to problems of development cycles and also, importantly, with the modding community (again a problem of overhead). Development costs are skyrocketing, but games are not getting more expensive. What this means, ultimately, is that game development studios, in order to satisfy player expectations for triple A titles, will have to cut corners, and this plays directly into the trend in modern gaming of shorter games that are as casual as they can be in order to appeal to larger mass markets. Obviously, this also means that start-up companies (a source of major innovation) will have a rougher time because player expectations force them to undergo overheads that are beyond their financial capabilities. While this problem is hardly solely due to VAs, it's undeniable that full voice acting contributes to the problem.

[mkreku]

Another drawback of full voice acting is that most development houses hire like.. 10-20 actors for all the voices. If the game has 100 NPC's, you're bound to start recognizing some of the actors after a while. I remember in Gothic 2 they were unfortunate enough to put the same voice actor on one of the main characters AND the different dragons you fought later in the game. It wouldn't have been so bad if the guy voicing them hadn't had such an original and easily recognizable voice.