World Of Warcraft rant

[Drakron]

Very poor choice.

 

In RPGs the ability to steal is most of the times a way to complete quests, in MMORPGs its simply not possible to make quests depending on a certain class ability unless they are class quests but then we start to think about the use of being able to "steal".

 

Grief is one issue, another would be how players could amass huge amount of money by steal/sell from merchants, I have done that in Daggerfall by breaking into a store at night and take everything I could carry just to sell it to the exact same store.

 

Stealing from players is bad, people simply dont like the idea they can lose their hard earned items either by chance or by other players ... after all how many DMs have thieves stealing from players without that being a plot device?

 

When people complain about MMORPGs many times they point to tabletop RPG rules forgetting that just because something is allowed by the rules does not mean its actually used, stealing is something that is only used as a plot device and/or restricted to players using it on NPCs.

 

So why sould stealing be allowed in MMORPGs, a class skill it would be near useless in relation to quest implementation, its open to downright abuse by grief players if left unrestricted and its too powerful as a money making skill.

[Calax]

so you simply give the mobs somthing that the people can steal and not allow stealing against players.

[Jumjalum]

Yeah but why steal from a mob when you can kill it and then take its goodies.

[Calax]

the skill... I don't know, maybe you get somthing deifferent from a steal rather than a kill.

[Child of Flame]

A couple ideas to implement stealing successfully in an MMO.

 

1. Restrict it so that you can only steal from people within 2-3 levels of yourself. This should alleviate some of the griefing. Players 2-3 levels lower have to make a harder check, players higher get a boon. Players lower than that would outright fail, as would players higher than that because the target PC would be too 'in awe' of the theif, making it hard for them to distract them enough to l3wt them.

 

2. If you steal a hojillion items from a shop, the break-in will be 'publicized'. Other shopowners will be on the lookout for these items, except for, say, a fence, that you have to sell the items to at a significant markdown. If you try to sell the items right back to the same shopkeeper, he will know that you stole them from him.

[Azarkon]

People who see World of Warcraft as a MMO version of the Warcraft series are missing a large chunk of the puzzle. That chunk is MMO history. World of Warcraft is not, foremost, a Warcraft MMO, but a MMO set in the World of Warcraft. It is a game that literally screams influences from other MMOs, and if WoW was your first MMO, I imagine you cannot possibly understand why certain things are the way they are in WoW.

 

To just point out a few of the missing links, let me answer some of the simpler questions:

 

"Why aren't the factions sending armies against each other, etc.?"

 

Simple, because dynamic events are difficult to balance in a MMO. One problem is that WoW wants to be for both PvE and PvP players (the two kinds of market identified by Blizzard looking at other MMORPGs' subscribers), so a world that is constantly in a state of PvP war isn't going to work because the PvE players want to be left alone by gankers. Also, as you might have noticed, Blizzard is slow enough at producing content as is. Producing dynamic events is a bit out of their league at the moment.

 

As for war-torn battlefields, WoW has plenty of those (Desolace, Hillsbrad, Plaguelands, etc.), so I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

 

"Why aren't humans allied with orcs, etc.?"

 

The factions are the way they are because WoW copied DAOC's realm-based PvP system, which requires that you balance factions with equal amount of races and classes. The only way that was going to happen in Blizzard's case was to put Undead with the Horde, since if Undead were its own faction you'd have a faction with one race, and that can't work in a realm-based PvP environment.

 

"Paladins..."

 

Paladins are a thorn on the side of class balance. Currently, paladins are overpowered in the raiding game because of a small thing called Blessing of Salvation. You might of heard about it, but it completely trivializes raid content in Blackwing Lair for Alliance. Someone else did the calculations, but it comes out to the effect that Blessing of Salvation allow Alliance raids to do roughly 43% more damage than Horde raids (only Alliance have paladins). A well-played paladin is an excellent support character on a raid. As for being primary tanks, well, that's an issue with Blizzard's class balance.

 

"Rogues vs. Warriors..."

 

You're the first one to claim that rogues have an advantage over warriors these days. The current trend among the balance crowd, with respect to rogue vs. warrior, is that warriors >>> rogues because they can push out 90% of a rogue's DPS with DPS gear and then switch over to tank gear and stand toe to toe with Ragnaros. Plus warriors completely dominate rogues in PvP. I'm not sure where you're coming from, in other words.

 

"But why are rogues damage dealers in the first place?"

 

Simple, because WoW copied the idea of the EQ Rogue, which consequently is the same Rogue you see in earlier MUDs since EQ copied DikuMUD. This decision was made in order to work Rogues into the general EQ/MUD group paradigm of Tank/Healer/DPS, which WoW also copied. Rogues are obviously not going to be tanks or healers, so they have to be DPS.

 

But, ah, why did Blizzard feel the need to copy EQ?

 

Because Blizzard is a company that takes ideas and improves upon them, at times to the point of perfection, not a company that comes up with completely new ideas. Warcraft was not the first RTS (Herzog Zwei & Dune II share that title), and its world was not original (they copied many ideas from Warhammer), but it was the classic RTS genre personified. Starcraft was not the first sci-fi strategy game with races like Zerg, Protoss, and Terran (again, they copied much from Warhammer 40k), but it was the best RTS of its day. Diablo was not the first roguelike, nor was it the first to use skill trees, but it was the roguelike genre set to great graphics with skill trees. And World of Warcraft, of course, was not the first MMORPG, but it is the most successful one.

 

Anyhow, I hope I shed some light on the reasons behind WoW's design. Games are seldom made out of a vacuum. Like every artist and professional medium, the sharing/stealing of ideas is paramount to the creation of new works, and to one who's willing to look deeper than one game, at times the reason for certain decisions become almost transparent.

[Guest Fishboot]

People who see World of Warcraft as a MMO version of the Warcraft series are missing a large chunk of the puzzle...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent post. Blizzard has a well earned reputation for polishing other's ideas to a high gloss (although, in my opinion, they're slipping in WoW, which can sometime seem more like a sloppy mess than a delicious MMORPG sampler).

 

I think they're getting away from the Warhammer influences a bit in the Warcraft storyline, since they've given the orcs an element of seriousness (rather than keeping them as the violent goofballs they've always been in WH and WH40K and were in the earlier WC games).

[Calax]

I knew about the 40k I didn't know about the origional copy. I admit that in my rant I was a little one sided, but that's because I've only ever seen the one side.

 

The major thing that the horde has going for it are Shamans, who doesn't love Self Ressurection in the middle of a battle allowing you to be "out of combat" rezing.

[Drakron]

A couple ideas to implement stealing successfully in an MMO. 

1.  Restrict it so that you can only steal from people within 2-3 levels of yourself.  This should alleviate some of the griefing.  Players 2-3 levels lower have to make a harder check, players higher get a boon.  Players lower than that would outright fail, as would players higher than that because the target PC would be too 'in awe' of the theif, making it hard for them to distract them enough to l3wt them. 

 

No, it would simply make a less of a anoyance for players but still it would be anoying to see quest items, gold and hard earned items being stolen.

 

Its grief no way how you cut it, it would be the same as free PvP within 2-3 levels.

 

2.  If you steal a hojillion items from a shop, the break-in will be 'publicized'.  Other shopowners will be on the lookout for these items, except for, say, a fence, that you have to sell the items to at a significant markdown.  If you try to sell the items right back to the same shopkeeper, he will know that you stole them from him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Too bad you are missing a common game feature, P2P trading.

 

That with audiction houses would make the "stolen" flag near useless since players would not care about that if they can get a high quality item cheaper that its selling price.

 

The main issue is and will be if stealing is allowed players will not like having the items stolen and any restriction is going to be pushed out by the thieves players that dont understand why they cannot steal gold or quest items or why sould they be restricted to only steal from NPCs, etc ...

 

Dont belive me ... check ANY MMORPG that have a form of PvP and you will see people asking for free PvP.

[Hurlshort]

WoW is the most polished MMO on the market by leaps and bounds. Most of the people that complain about it are either not into MMO's games in general, or are hardcore types who blow through content. WoW appeals to the more casual type, and by casual I mean people who don't play the game like it's a full time job. That is why it has like 3.5 million players.

 

Also, I was walking arounf the Undead Capital the other day, and I looked at a corpse hanging on a hook, and the guys eyeball (he only had one) actually twisted and looked directly at me. That's creepy polish.

[Guest Fishboot]

WoW is the most polished MMO on the market by leaps and bounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Tallest pygmy. :D

[metadigital]

...

The biggest disadvantage of the Paladin is the inability to pull a guy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this a comment on the lack of sex appeal for the Paladin class?

 

Because I always thought they were better off with a lot of Charisma ... "

[Calax]

...

The biggest disadvantage of the Paladin is the inability to pull a guy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this a comment on the lack of sex appeal for the Paladin class?

 

Because I always thought they were better off with a lot of Charisma ... "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

actually al, they can pull if they bubble. they be invincible. Only problem is that they can't loose agro after pulling.

[alanschu]

I don't consider it to be much for "pulling" since it still requires you to run right up beside the guy.

[Calax]

they do but it still gets the job done. They aren't allowed to even have a ranged weapon anyway.

[alanschu]

I know they aren't allowed to have a ranged weapon. I've never used the shield to "pull" but wouldn't it still aggro the guys you have to run up to that you aren't attacking?

[Calax]

if they are hostile they will still go after you if you are bubbled, it can be effective but you have to have a zillion buffs and be specifically designed to do it.

[alanschu]

Then it's not a pull.

 

You might as well just run up and start attacking.

 

 

When I was referring to "pull" I was talking about having a ranged character using a ranged ability to pull a single creature from a mob, so that you don't have to worry about bringing in 20 guys into the fight. Most elite instances involve pulling a single character at a time to ensure the party survives.

[Guest Fishboot]

When I was referring to "pull" I was talking about having a ranged character using a ranged ability to pull a single creature from a mob, so that you don't have to worry about bringing in 20 guys into the fight.  Most elite instances involve pulling a single character at a time to ensure the party survives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Scarlet Cathedral is the last place that single pulls happen. There's no way to separate groups, pulling-wise, in Uldaman through whatever the latest instance is, and a paladin that pulls with proximity aggro is no worse than anyone else. "Pulling" as a distinct skill isn't really an issue in WoW past the mid-30's or so, unlike a game like EQ that is balanced completely around single pulls. In WoW you pull a group of three or four and use "sleep" type spells like a Mage's Polymorph or a Rogue's Sap to keep some of the pull out of the fight for a small period of time.

[alanschu]

There are still plenty of situations however, where it's possible to pull a single guy out of a crowded space.

[Calax]

actually I"m going to agree with Al on this one. There are several instances where pulling includes only one person. Recently my friends have taken to running molten core, which is much harder than the cathedral, and they still pull only one guy at a time. Unfortunatly the spawn times can be a little short so at one point we were fighting a Lava Annihilator when an ancient core hound poofed on us. we survived (barly) by banishing the Annihilator and kicking the dog between the legs a bunch of times. then we killed the Annihilator.

[alanschu]

Crowd control is important. Polymorph is one of the most useful skills I've ever seen.

[Lord Tingeling]

And I don't quite understand how darnassus and the newbie area up there ever came to be, I mean the tree did explode but I doubt that would have caused and entire landmass to break off.

 

Then you haven't read the lore. Teldrassil is Teldrassil. The (now ruined) Tree of Life on Mount Hyal is another thing entirely. Teldrassil was planted after RoC.

 

Also the Humans don't have a presence on the shores of Kalimdor to represent those who fled with Jaina and later with Lord Proudmoore.

 

Wrong. Northwatch Hold lies just south of Ratchet.

 

The fact that the Paladins (our holy saviors from War3) have become just plate wearing priests who can't do squat for damage, is also a question. Most of the items made for them have been based around the concept of "They are only healers. But we also made them able to resist damage! YAY AIN'T WE GREAT?" (Dev). Paladins would make for great "tanks" in that they are able to resist damage and heal themselves. Only problem is EVERY other class (including the shaman, who's supposedly their opposite) does more damage, or Heals more. I would say that this would make a great Solo character but the fact that they don't get decent defensive items and take forever to kill something really damages the idea.

 

They do get defensive items, and quite good ones at that. They are a plate-wearing class, remember?

 

If your going to try to make paladins a "support" character try at least giving them a ranged DoT.

 

I fail to see how a DoT would help with a paladin in his support role. It might be useful for solo pulling/PvP, but otherwise, no.

 

they pay a heck of a lot of mana for their healing abilities

 

This is completely faulty. I assume you haven't invested in any sort of intelligence/+healing gear, which, suprisingly, healing classes wear in order to heal effectively. With blessing of light and appropriate gear, paladins become very, very mana-efficient healers.

 

they can't tank

 

Wrong. They can, just not as good as warriors, and certainly not good enough for MC/BWL/ZG etc where effectiveness is key.

 

they can't resurrect somebody while considered in combat

 

Priests can't either, shamans can't either. What's your point?

 

they aren

[Lord Tingeling]

My level 33 Paladin wins pretty much all one on one fights however, whether it be PvE or PvP.  The only class that can get me easily is a Priest that has manaburn.

 

You're level 33. Paladins are teh win at lower levels- their damage doesn't scale nearly enough as that of the other classes later on. Which is as it should be, really.

 

If they're equipment isn't meant for fighting, then I guess fighter's aren't meant for fighting.....given that Paladin's can use the same melee weapons as a fighter.

 

Sure they can, but endgame, warriors and rogues are usually first in line for the heavy hitters. And their set equipment (lawbringer etc) are firmly healbot-oriented. As it should be, really. A jack-of-all-trades has no place in Molten Core whatsoever.

[Hurlshort]

I have a serious problem with people who complain about this mythical "end game". It takes a TON of hours to reach level 60. Are those hours somehow painful to you? Are you just going through the motions to get there? Do you expect the game to suddenly get better when you reach 60? Is levelling somehow laborious to you?

 

It's the journey that's important, not the "end game". My paladin is level 45, and he's been a blast the whole way. I've literally played him for the equivalent of 10 days straight. That's a lot of hours, and I have many more before I reach 60. He's hard to kill. But when I reach 60 I won't whine that he's no longer usefull. I had my fun with him. If I really don't like using him at 60, I'll simply start another character, because it's the journey that matters in WoW.