How long did Revan know?

[gonzzalez]

Well aside from the "how can we continue this franchise....oh yeah he was actually going after the hmmm...true sith, yeah that works", I understood it as Revan decided the only way to fight this threat was the power of the darkside (i.e) more aggressive attacking powers.

 

Basically the republic needed to shape up and become a well oiled dictatorship if it was to survive. Which is why Kreia states that he did not really fall, but just did what needed to be done.

[Jediphile]

And I have another question (don't know if it has been asked before): If Revan was DS in K1, why would he attack those "real" Sith, instead of joining them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I suppose the easy answer to that question is that he wanted to conquer and rule the Sith empire himself, and he needed the Republic's resources and manpower to do that...

[Jediphile]

A lot of it is just bad writing.  So many things in K2 contradict what we saw in K1.  We think in K1 Revan was corrupted by the Star Forge, then we are told it was the Trayus academy.  We're told in K1 Revan fell to the dark side, in K2 we are told he "sacrificed" himself to the darkside.  Bullcrap.  After K2, Revan felt less like your character.  What K2 says about Revan not truly being 'evil' is especially rediculous if Revan was DS in K1.  Revan was as good or evil as you wanted him/her to be in K1, but K2 tried to change that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why is it bad writing that Obsidian brought more depth and subtlety to the character? I think what you describe here is a very simplistic black/white perspective. I find that there are explanations to all of this in K2, though it is true that all the cut content means that you really have to dig for it. But I do think they did their homework plotwise, and that your perspective is rather limited - you have to look at the various stages of "evil Revan".

 

As others have already said, Revan and Malak were already evil before they found the StarForge, since why else would they accept exile from the jedi order by finding the starmap on Dantooine? Revan had already embraced the dark side at that point.

 

What is less clear are the reasons. If Revan already knew of the threat of the true Sith at that point, then he might have done as Kreia suggests and sacrificed himself to the dark side to prevent a greater evil. This would have happened at the Trayus Academy. Yes, this means he is evil now and will kill people, but his motives for having done this in the first placemight be those of serving the greater good - compare to Ulic Qel-Droma before the Sith War and Luke Skywalker in "Dark Empire". Besides, Revan was always the strategist who was prepared to sacrifice, as Canderous noted frequently in K1. I do find it consistent with the character.

 

Perhaps his idea was to embrace the StarForge and build an armada, which he would then strike against the true Sith with. Or so he told himself. Perhaps he didn't intend to fight the Republic at all. But when he found the StarForge, his intentions were twisted by the dark side influence there, and he could no longer persue his original plan, and simply conquering the true Sith was no longer enough for the evil ambitions his embrace of the dark side had imposed upon him. The Republic was weak, so instead of being something he sacrificed himself to protect, it became something he had to conquer for power and for later conquest of the true Sith.

 

Adds up in my book...

 

I still hold the view that Revan was indeed evil when he was battling the Republic.  He was either evil all along (DS) or he became corrupted by outside factors as a LS (Star Forge, Trayus Academy).  He might have even tried to use the darkside's power, thinking he could control it, but eventually ended up its slave anyway. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No argument there. Revan probably tried to to embrace the dark side and control it, convinced on his ability to resist given his own power. Which is, of course, a very arrogant position, and just the same mistake as Ulic made (and Luke, to a lesser extent).

 

As for the True Sith, he most likely discovered them when he was journeying along the outer rim during or after the Mandalorian Wars.  (Malachor V, I think is where he first learned about them)  From what I've learned, regardless of his alignment, he is fighting the True Sith.  Also odd considering one person, even two (the exile goes off to join him) can't hope to defeat an entire empire.  If he's LS, he's fighting them to save the Republic and the Jedi.  If he's DS, then I guess he's fighting them so they aren't a threat to his own empire, or he may be trying to enslave or subjugate them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Revan's choice to fight the true Sith after the events of K1 was based on necessity. If DS he could no longer deny his own inability to control the StarForge (he hadn't controlled it - it had controlled him!), and if LS he had to face the fact that he could not embrace the dark side without his goals being perverted. So what does he do? He goes to the Sith empire, embraces the dark side, then begins building his own powerbase *within* the Sith empire to become its new ruler.

 

If DS he does this because he won't let the StarForge twist his intentions anymore and because his converted jedi forces have now been squandered by Malak, and he remains confident that instead subvert the Sith empire and turn many of their people to his cause.

 

If LS Revan realises that whatever happens, the dark side will try to twist his intentions again, so if he goes to the Sith empire before embracing it again, then his ambitions for power will be destructive internally to the true Sith and not harm the Republic. Maybe he even intends to fail and expects to perish before he can grow so powerful that he can threaten the Republic again, hoping that by then he has weakened the true Sith so much with civil war that it will be too weak to strike against the Republic.

[vaxen83]

Well, so in some way, whether Revan was LS or DS, he was aware of what was happening, at least to some extent.

[Darth Verus]

I agree with Jediphile, one of the things I like the most about TSL is how it takes what sounded like clear-cut ideas form KotOR, including the apparent total victory of whichever side Revan ended up on, and introduced a "reality check" of sorts, bringing all manner of things back up for debate is a way that not only served the story, but also helped to build deeper characters. It makes you think about things, which is why I am obsessed enough to still be thinking about it and playing it months after I first finished it. I find TSL has more replay value than KotOR, quite an accomplishment.

 

Anyway, back on topic.

 

It is my personal oppinion that Revan knew about the True Sith since birth. I think that Revan's home, which Kreia tells us is in the Unknown Regions beyond the Outer Rim, is actually a Sith held world, and that Darth Revan went among the Jedi to learn from and of them, and then subvert and suplant them, through the Mandalorian Wars, which I believe were orchestratred for the dual purpose of removing the Mandalorian threat before they could get it into their heads to turn on their former Sith "allies", and to give Revan an opportunity to turn many Jedi and Republic soldiers to his/her cause. Whether Revan wanted to build a personal Empire from the Republic just for fun or to help claim power in the Sith Empire elsewhere, or just to weaken the Republic for an attack by a less-than-impresive Sith Empire, or what, I don't know. Not enough info.

 

But remember, Revan didn't become evil just moments before seeking out the Star Forge. Kreia tells us that the Mandalorian Wars masked a war of conversion, that Revan knew how to make echoing areas in the Force from massive death tolls, to help that conversion. Did Kreia teach Revan this? Or is this perhaps knowledge that was taught to Revan for a specific purpose before Aren Kae ever took on her first Padawan?

 

Also, something else to think about. Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Tulak Horde, Adjunta Pal, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma. All these Sith use their normal names. Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, Darth Tyrannus, Darth Plagus, Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion: these are titles. So why does Revan take a Darth in front of his/her normal name? We know Malak put a Darth in front of his name, and probably Darth Bandon too, but why would Revan, who taught Malak about the Sith, mix a Sith title with his real name? Unless it was not the assumption of a title, but the resumption of one earned long ago? Food for thought maybe.

[vaxen83]

Prophecies of doom and fortune wear many faces.

[BattleCookiee]

*thread pruned*

 

Since this one was revived, instead of dying like it should; I cleaned the mess...

[Calax]

I agree with Jediphile, one of the things I like the most about TSL is how it takes what sounded like clear-cut ideas form KotOR, including the apparent total victory of whichever side Revan ended up on, and introduced a "reality check" of sorts, bringing all manner of things back up for debate is a way that not only served the story, but also helped to build deeper characters. It makes you think about things, which is why I am obsessed enough to still be thinking about it and playing it months after I first finished it. I find TSL has more replay value than KotOR, quite an accomplishment.

 

Anyway, back on topic.

 

It is my personal oppinion that Revan knew about the True Sith since birth. I think that Revan's home, which Kreia tells us is in the Unknown Regions beyond the Outer Rim, is actually a Sith held world, and that Darth Revan went among the Jedi to learn from and of them, and then subvert and suplant them, through the Mandalorian Wars, which I believe were orchestratred for the dual purpose of removing the Mandalorian threat before they could get it into their heads to turn on their former Sith "allies", and to give Revan an opportunity to turn many Jedi and Republic soldiers to his/her cause. Whether Revan wanted to build a personal Empire from the Republic just for fun or to help claim power in the Sith Empire elsewhere, or just to weaken the Republic for an attack by a less-than-impresive Sith Empire, or what, I don't know. Not enough info.

 

But remember, Revan didn't become evil just moments before seeking out the Star Forge. Kreia tells us that the Mandalorian Wars masked a war of conversion, that Revan knew how to make echoing areas in the Force from massive death tolls, to help that conversion. Did Kreia teach Revan this? Or is this perhaps knowledge that was taught to Revan for a specific purpose before Aren Kae ever took on her first Padawan?

 

Also, something else to think about. Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Tulak Horde, Adjunta Pal, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma. All these Sith use their normal names. Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, Darth Tyrannus, Darth Plagus, Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion: these are titles. So why does Revan take a Darth in front of his/her normal name? We know Malak put a Darth in front of his name, and probably Darth Bandon too, but why would Revan, who taught Malak about the Sith, mix a Sith title with his real name? Unless it was not the assumption of a title, but the resumption of one earned long ago? Food for thought maybe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Highly doubtful because when Revan was turned into a vegetable by Malak the Jedi when reconstructing his personality with the minor changes and such would have picked up on the memory of his young sithhood and probably wouldn't have let him out of the sight of the council. Also they would have never trained him as a Jedi again because that could bring back his origional sith training if we follow your line of thinking.

 

About the names, It just seems that because Revan and Malak were trying to follow an example without an actual teacher that they were slipshod in their teachings. thus we got the Darth *name* rather than the Extra title. Besides to call him Darth Revan keeps him away from the Darkness that is normally associated with things like Maul, Sidious, Plagius, and Treya. By the way Sion at least is a name not a title.

 

Tra lala lala lala

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Lucasarts is confused. That's it.

[ProgenitorHK47]

On Kreia's beleif that a fall and a sacrifice aren't mutually exclusive terms, I beleive the wirters were refering to Badtila's fall to the dark side in that, she fell, but had saved Revan and co. from being killed by Malak, so it was a good thing!

 

But if you say Revan was DS, you find a Sith Holocron on Korriban where Bastila says that Revan didn't intend to keep the Star Forge. That it was too dangerous for the Sith. All of this is strange. Though it is Star Wars, there has to be "a little" logic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan came to same realization that the True Sith did, you don't control the Star Forge, it controls you, and will discard you when it doesn't need you anymore. This was the same scenario that happened to the Infinite Empire, and Revan learned from their mistakes.

[darthbass123]

Back to the Darth thing. How can they have Darth in their name when Darth Bane doesn't even exist yet? He is the one that made the rule.

[ProgenitorHK47]

He only made the Master and Apprentice only rule, not the title of Darth. I beleive it is an optional title of the ruling Sith.

[Slipstreme]

Darth means Darkness, which is why Dark Jedi don't call themselves Darth,

[darthbass123]

He only made the Master and Apprentice only rule, not the title of Darth. I beleive it is an optional title of the ruling Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually he did make the darth rule.

[Slipstreme]

Well... obviuosly he didn't if Revan, Malak, Sion, Bandon, Nihilius and Treya called themselves Darth

[darthbass123]

He did, but I'm saying that LA has got the many things to fix as we all know by now. They are historically innacurate.

[Slipstreme]

Well technically since LA owns the history it would seem that the original 'Darth Bane creating the name' thing is innacurate

[darthbass123]

They should tell us when they're going to change Star Wars history.

[Slipstreme]

True... but knowing LA don't hold your breath for it

[darthbass123]

Trust me. I'm not.

[Calax]

I'm gonna wait for Phile to rule on that one, he has more learning about that level of detail.

[BattleCookiee]

Back to the Darth thing. How can they have Darth in their name when Darth Bane doesn't even exist yet? He is the one that made the rule.

 

BioWare just found it sound Star Warsy? Really, you should ask BioWare, not OE or LA

 

Darth means Darkness, which is why Dark Jedi don't call themselves Darth,

 

Darth means Dark Lord of the Sith

[vaxen83]

I was playing K2 when someone (I don't know who) said something about Revan when he conquered the Galaxy. He/she said that Revan, when he conquered world after world, destroying one after another, conquered Onderon without destroying everything on the planet. Because Onderon is one of the planets on the edge of Republic space, Revan may have known about the "real" Sith threat when he was Dark Lord. If that is true, then why didn't he attacked them then when he had a huge army?

 

 

And I have another question (don't know if it has been asked before): If Revan was DS in K1, why would he attack those "real" Sith, instead of joining them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The understanding that Revan had was in-borne, I believe. This was simply because the nature of the true sith is not linked physically nor directly to the kind of war that the Republic was used to fighting. Kreia basically said that the true war is waged inside people. Which means Revan knew about the power of the true sith, more than other people, but not enough to realise what was driving him so powerfully. If he had known earlier, there would not have been a period of the Mandalorian Wars nor even the Jedi Civil War.

 

He had to deal with his own war after that.

[Darth Verus]

Highly doubtful because when Revan was turned into a vegetable by Malak the Jedi when reconstructing his personality with the minor changes and such would have picked up on the memory of his young sithhood and probably wouldn't have let him out of the sight of the council. Also they would have never trained him as a Jedi again because that could bring back his origional sith training if we follow your line of thinking.

 

You're assuming that the Jedi Council could have known that Revan had such memories. Carth says that the Force can "... wipe away your memories and destroy your very identity." Not that Carth is really the authority here or anything, but it seems perfectly plausible that when Revan's mind was destroyed by Malak and/or wiped by the Jedi Council, and then replaced, that there would not have been anything that the Jedi could identify. Indeed, I doubt that creating a new persona is something the Jedi would do without great need and deliberation, so it's not like you would expect them to have much experience and practical knowledge. Even if the memories were still there, I wouldn't expect them to find them, assuming that what they did to Revan even requires that they interact with the mind in such a way that would make that possible.

 

About the names, It just seems that because Revan and Malak were trying to follow an example without an actual teacher that they were slipshod in their teachings. thus we got the Darth *name* rather than the Extra title. Besides to call him Darth Revan keeps him away from the Darkness that is normally associated with things like Maul, Sidious, Plagius, and Treya. By the way Sion at least is a name not a title.

 

Tra lala lala lala

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sith naming conventions aren't exactly rock solid evidence, it's just something I noticed, a difference that got me thinking. You could very well be right, but my idea fits so nicely with the theory of Revan being Sith from the beggining that I have grown a little attached to it. It hints at conspiracies and deeper meanings, and Darth Revan just makes so much sense as a Sith title.

 

I was wondering what the heck Sion was supposed to stand for too. I suppose it could be a creative spelling of scion, but why change just one letter, especialy for such a weird title as "scion"? Something related to pain or his "broken" body would be cool, but I don't speak Latin, and nothing in English comes to mind. Weird.

[Calax]

Highly doubtful because when Revan was turned into a vegetable by Malak the Jedi when reconstructing his personality with the minor changes and such would have picked up on the memory of his young sithhood and probably wouldn't have let him out of the sight of the council. Also they would have never trained him as a Jedi again because that could bring back his origional sith training if we follow your line of thinking.

 

You're assuming that the Jedi Council could have known that Revan had such memories. Carth says that the Force can "... wipe away your memories and destroy your very identity." Not that Carth is really the authority here or anything, but it seems perfectly plausible that when Revan's mind was destroyed by Malak and/or wiped by the Jedi Council, and then replaced, that there would not have been anything that the Jedi could identify. Indeed, I doubt that creating a new persona is something the Jedi would do without great need and deliberation, so it's not like you would expect them to have much experience and practical knowledge. Even if the memories were still there, I wouldn't expect them to find them, assuming that what they did to Revan even requires that they interact with the mind in such a way that would make that possible.

So your saying that somehow revans memories of the star forge survived when somthing as old and as cemented as where he came from and how he lived/was trained got wiped away? Methinks that he wouldn't forget where he came from and how he was trained. Besides they would have noticed if he didn't act like a total newbie to the force thing, after a while I would think that using your weapon would become physical memory that is very hard to supress. and he wouldn't want to forget those skills now would he?

About the names, It just seems that because Revan and Malak were trying to follow an example without an actual teacher that they were slipshod in their teachings. thus we got the Darth *name* rather than the Extra title. Besides to call him Darth Revan keeps him away from the Darkness that is normally associated with things like Maul, Sidious, Plagius, and Treya. By the way Sion at least is a name not a title.

 

Tra lala lala lala

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sith naming conventions aren't exactly rock solid evidence, it's just something I noticed, a difference that got me thinking. You could very well be right, but my idea fits so nicely with the theory of Revan being Sith from the beggining that I have grown a little attached to it. It hints at conspiracies and deeper meanings, and Darth Revan just makes so much sense as a Sith title.

 

I was wondering what the heck Sion was supposed to stand for too. I suppose it could be a creative spelling of scion, but why change just one letter, especialy for such a weird title as "scion"? Something related to pain or his "broken" body would be cool, but I don't speak Latin, and nothing in English comes to mind. Weird.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sion could just be his name you know. I mean it's not like everybody has to have a different name. If you notice one of the reasons why they change their name is so that they are not recognized by the populance as Count Dukoo or Emperor Palpitine. Sion couldn't exactly hide who he was because of Physical Deformity. Having a seperate name implies that you are hiding. After all if you didn't everone would know exactly who you were and where you lived and you would be facing 4 or 5 assination attempts per week.