most awesomest thing to happen in a mmorpg, ever!

[Musopticon?]

Thanks. I needed that.

[213374U]

Um... anytime?

[Musopticon?]

Cheers.

 

 

 

Edit: Back on topic now, yes? EVE is awesome, not?

[213374U]

A MMORPG that encourages lifeless geeks to backstab each other over their virtual, well-earned by months of virtual dirt-farming fortunes? Yes, I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing.

 

"Awesome" is a gross understatement, I'd say.

[Musopticon?]

I feel your pain.

 

 

 

The thought of taking over whole companies intrigues me. Like all major chaos does. Doing it virtually and not earning anything, besides some endorphin from the dying fingers finally getting a release after the coupe, doesn't however.

[213374U]

Well, I find it really pathetic. As RP suggested, it's highly unlikely that this was achieved by in-game means exclusively. Reading the article it becomes evident that the undercover player befriended the target player to a certain degree. And the douchebag behind it all has the gall to brag about that specifically. In the end, it all comes down to something as petty and contemptible as betraying one's trust to win a game.

 

Sure, it can be argued that online friendships aren't "real" friendships, but still, it speaks volumes about the person. How much lower can an online player sink without actually breaking the law?

 

Of course, the devs brag about it, claiming they have created a world that allows for such "deep political plays" or some such nonsense. The sad truth is that all the technology needed to betray the trust others have in you in any gaming community is an IM program and perhaps a message board. And CCP most certainly haven't invented those.

 

If I had any doubts left about MMORPGs, they have all magically dissipated now.

[alanschu]

I actually find it kind of neat.

[213374U]

I doubt you'd have that opinion if it was you on the receiving end.

[alanschu]

At the same time I wouldn't be hurt or anything. It is just a game.

 

I'd rather someone spend the time doing that in a game rather than real life.

 

 

 

And from what I understand, the person that they did that to was known for ripping people off herself.

[Guest Fishboot]

At the same time I wouldn't be hurt or anything.  It is just a game.

 

The thing is, you have to basically be psychotically devoted to gather up the amount crap that the scammed player had (and his likely hundreds of associates who were also taken). I would liken it to taking months or years out of your life to make a 1:1 scale sand castle and then someone pretending to be your friend knocking it down (that analogy is much weirder on the page than I thought it would be). I mean, for a certain level of investment one could blow this type of injury off easily, but if that many man-hours were lost and so much craft was wasted you'd feel it, and to say otherwise is disingenous. For me that's part of the problem of MMORPGs - "It's just a game!" is easy to say, but it flies in the face of how seriously players actually take it.

 

And from what I understand, the person that they did that to was known for ripping people off herself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, I kind of suspect the same thing. Or at least she was particularly rude or something - I have a hard time believing that all the people that were involved in the scammer's side could all be so gleefully ruthless otherwise.

[alanschu]

The victim had a humongous bounty on her head to begin with, so she obviously pissed someone off.

[EnderAndrew]

Anytime you invest copious amounts of your time into a thing like this, it will seem huge to you. Does this seem nearly as huge to the outside world?

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"I doubt you'd have that opinion if it was you on the receiving end."

 

Well, from what I've heard the people who were on the receiving end have re-established themselves as a galactic power and their attitude on what took place is closer to "gg" than "I quit".

 

So, maybe you just don't get the game.

[Musopticon?]

Well the forums that we were linked to, seemed to have had their dhare of flames and asshattery about the "issue". I agree with you thoug.

[metadigital]

...

The whole problem is that unofficial means of communication[1] (such as forum messaging, private chats or channels, emails) and unwritten game rules allow for this kind of situation to rise. As an example, when I have the time I play a certain MMORPG. No point in naming it, though it's basically centered around building our own empires, mine resources and train out armies to eventually become king cheese. One of the things several players do is set up personal forums for alliances. In those forums players exchange information about other players' soldiers and spy offense and defense, their gold per turn, miners, wheter these players belong to the alliance or not. This is metagaming, insofar as sharing information about users who are not part of the alliance (and therefore never consented to having their stats displayed) and about users whose offense and defense is too high for certain users to fight against.

 

[2]So basically I can log in a given alliance forum, be nice, scoop up information then find myself using it for personal gains, or for alliance coordinated attacks. I may even build a spy network to infiltrate and undermine a fellow alliance member's fortification and armies based on information he gives me (though I'd have to be careful not to be exposed). I assume a scenario where I actually sell information about other players' status would also be possible ("sell" in terms of ingame monetary resources, not real life currency). I am not aware if such things are done but I wouldn't be surprised. That would have certainly explained all the spy attacks I received after exposing my statistics to fellow alliance members; someone could be playing double agent.

 

The thing is, these situations are considered to be morally reprehensible simply because they are being done outside the field of the game[3]. Nothing prevents players from establishing alliances and communicate between themselves and set up attacks or somesuch; but all else can be dubbed metagaming. But just where does it begin and where does it end? How do we let everyone know that player A is a metagamer and player B is roleplaying a double agent? Perhaps more importantly, how do we make every other player understand and play along with the differences, to make them sacrifice themselves for a given idea of roleplaying and of virtual co-existence?

 

It seems to me that the more one tries to put the RPG back into MMORPG the more hassle one finds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I reaad you correctly, I agree. Some of my thoughts:

1. How is this any different from every single group attempting to establish a secure channel for intelligence? The WW2 Germans and their Enigma code machines: were they meta-gaming? I think it is not so unacceptable to have secure channels; after all, if the characters were of the virtual world, there would be other means to facilitate their communications, such as scraps of paper under the counter of the local greasy spoon, or a want ad in the local newspaper.

 

2. Isn't this just garden-variety espionage? Nowhere near as clever as Harold Adrian Russell (Kim) Philby (Aside: ...In 1988 Philby consented to a week-long interview with The Sunday Times, in which he justified his treachery to his native country by saying that when he made his commitment to the KGB, he believed that the western democracies were too weak to resist the rise of Fascism in Europe and that only the Soviet Union would be able to defeat it. ...)

 

3. I don't find it morally reprehensible. And I would go further with your example: how do we really differentiate between the "meta-gamer" and the "role-playing double agent" ...

[213374U]

So, maybe you just don't get the game.

No, it's you who doesn't get what I'm talking about. I'm perfectly fine with losing and winning, ripping other players off, scamming, and all that jazz. IF and only IF it is done within the boundaries of the game mechanics.

 

Of course most players in the receiving end would be like "gg". But I didn't mean that part of the receiving end. This most likely involved OOC sucking up, lies, and duplicity. And it most certainly has involved OOC gloating. That part of the receiving end I have a hard time believing is like "gg". For that is called betrayal, pal. And it's neither nice, nor considered fair play (even in a game that encourages this kind of backstabbing). I don't care if she deserved it or not, I don't care if she had done it herself before. If that is indeed the case, it's only proof that that community is even more rotten than the article shows, and to what depths will those people sink to pursue their virtual vendettas or take over others' virtual fortunes.

 

Perhaps the game motto is "Trust No One", but I haven't seen that anywhere so far. And that's not the kind of friendly community spirit that most MMORPG devs are after.

 

But yeah, perhaps I'm just another Worried Christian Parent who "doesn't get the game". Yeah, that must be it.

 

Sorry, I hear there is a mob forming in front of Rockstar right now, and I wouldn't miss it for all the Bibles in the world. Catch ya later.

 

 

[Guest Fishboot]

Well, from what I've heard the people who were on the receiving end have re-established themselves as a galactic power and their attitude on what took place is closer to "gg" than "I quit".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If they don't find premeditated personal betrayal, set up through primarily non-game channels, to be transgressive metagaming then what's over the line? Can I find their names out and harass them over the phone? Should I expect a slap on the shoulder and a "GG!" after I jump out of some guy's bushes and punch him in the stomach? Maybe I should be allowed to scream and pretend to have seizures during my opponent's turn in a chess match? :D

 

There's something disturbing about that level of "metagame = game" creep, where the oligarchy of an MMO can be filled with people who are simply willing to be increasingly transgressive in their metagaming.

[metadigital]

At the same time I wouldn't be hurt or anything.  It is just a game.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... But games are pratice for RL.

[213374U]

... But games are pratice for RL. 

Of course. I SO could use better backstabbing skills in my common everyday life.

[metadigital]

At the same time I wouldn't be hurt or anything.  It is just a game.

The thing is, you have to basically be psychotically devoted to gather up the amount crap that the scammed player had (and his likely hundreds of associates who were also taken). I would liken it to taking months or years out of your life to make a 1:1 scale sand castle and then someone pretending to be your friend knocking it down (that analogy is much weirder on the page than I thought it would be).

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just dedication to quality! Micro-managing the details, with the overall goal in mind.

 

Sure it takes control-freaks of rare sociopathic dimensions to actually carry out such virtual operations, but then again, these people already exist: the game didn't create them!

 

Not much of a fun community, though, I agree. I certainly won't be running out to buy the game. "

[LoneWolf16]

So, Eve is a sort of MMORPG/RTS/Corporate take-over simulator?

 

Personally, I found the article to be...awe-inspiring. And not in a good way. Who the hell has the time, and actually believes in something like that enough to actually go theough with it? More importantly, what kind of person befriends another outside of a game, only for the purpose of betraying them within it?

 

Perhaps this moral high horse is a bit too high.

[213374U]

Sure it takes control-freaks of rare sociopathic dimensions to actually carry out such virtual operations, but then again, these people already exist: the game didn't create them!

 

Not much of a fun community, though, I agree. I certainly won't be running out to buy the game. "

Pretty much. Even if the devs wanted to crack down on such practices, I don't see any feasible means to do it.

 

However, this is not like the "violence in games = violence in RL" discussion. Those people probably had a "distinct" personality that has allowed them to carry this out before they started playing, I agree. But the game has acted as a catalyst, undoubtedly. Those people were exercising real social skills. The sad thing is that this game effectively acted as a trainer for their sort of emotional scam. Probably, these guys are more adept at having fake personalities than they were before.

 

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but that is not the kind of people I'd like to have as co-workers.

[Volourn]

This is ana wesome story! I say good job! This is what role-playing is about! That said, i'm sure some 'cheating' took place; but meh poo happens. Overall, the assassination, and conspiracy was well done. And, it's not real so don't talk like these people have no morals. Gah.

 

I think people who takethings that happen in game sso personally are the ones who can't see the difference between RL and gaming issues.

 

Of cours,e it would suck if it happened to you; but that's role-playing.

[213374U]

I think people who takethings that happen in game sso personally are the ones who can't see the difference between RL and gaming issues.

You know, it sometimes pays to think before you post. It also helps to read the article first.

 

Not that I expect you to do either, as you would no longer be the Magical Volo.

[Volourn]

I read the post, and the article sincluded. My statement stands; but hey; as per usual you try to make everything personal while I was commenting strictly on the article and on the opinions about said artle.

 

But, hey, troll on, McDuff, and let's make this about posters not topics.

 

R00fles!

 

P.S. Your trolling has been reported.