Happy Birthday USA

[Dark Moth]

There is absolutely no way the US can take credit in setting of the spark of democracy in the western world. It was the days of the enlightenment where voices everywhere cried out for democracy and freedom from the tyranny of the class system and the church. And the motives of some of the people behind the "american revolution" were very far from altruistic.

 

 

And the only ones to see the US as a beacon of freedom and democracy are some of its own citizens.

 

 

And what do you mean by?

Unfortunately, only recently have we truly begun to realize that ideal.

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Of course we can. We can't take all credit for it of course, but some. And don't ascribe motives to people who were long dead for hundreds of years. I have read history a lot, and I know that not everyone had virtuous motives (Sam Adams for one), but we fought for the right cause, and in the end, won. I am referring to the American Revolution.

 

And for your last comment, if that were true, why would we have a huge immigration problem? Why would we be recieving all these illegal immigrants from Mexico, the Carribean, the Middle East, and other places? Why would we have immigrants who die try to come over here if this country isn't worth it? There was an incident earlier this year where Cuban immigrants died trying to reach Florida's shore. Why don't you go and ask them why they died trying to get here? Or maybe you could ask the Mexican immigrants who died trying to cross a river to get to the U.S earlier this year. Mexico is a democratic country, last time I checked, but they still seem to want to come over here. " In fact, it's because of immigration that Hispanics are now the largest minority in the U.S.

 

As for my quote, I meant that only recently have we actually given equal freedom to all. In the begining, most rights were for white males. Only until the 20th century did we give blacks and women the right to vote. Not until the civil rights movement did we give blacks equal freedoms as whites. We are not a perfect country. We were never a perfect country. But I think we are far better off than we were, and we are definitely better off than many countries in the world.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Mothman

[mkreku]

And for your last comment, if that were true, why would we have a huge immigration problem?

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Just a quick note: This is not something that's unique for the USA. Every rich country in the world that has poor neighbours has the same 'problem'. Immigration always goes from poor to rich, that's quite natural. Not every nation in the world is so vocal about their problems though.

 

 

 

 

Those damn finns keep sneaking over our borders! Curse them! Curse them all!

[kirottu]

And for your last comment, if that were true, why would we have a huge immigration problem?  Why would we be recieving all these illegal immigrants from Mexico, the Carribean, the Middle East, and other places?  Why would we have immigrants who die try to come over here if this country isn't worth it?

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Almost every western country has immigration problems. Italy for example has had similar cases with immigrant from Africa. Immigrants are trying to get from worse to better in one brief leap. I would say USA has probably the biggest problem of all western countries, but that

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

And for your last comment, if that were true, why would we have a huge immigration problem?  Why would we be recieving all these illegal immigrants from Mexico, the Carribean, the Middle East, and other places?  Why would we have immigrants who die try to come over here if this country isn't worth it?

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Almost every western country has immigration problems. Italy for example has had similar cases with immigrant from Africa. Immigrants are trying to get from worse to better in one brief leap. I would say USA has probably the biggest problem of all western countries, but that

[Dark Moth]

And for your last comment, if that were true, why would we have a huge immigration problem?

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Just a quick note: This is not something that's unique for the USA. Every rich country in the world that has poor neighbours has the same 'problem'. Immigration always goes from poor to rich, that's quite natural. Not every nation in the world is so vocal about their problems though.

 

 

 

 

Those damn finns keep sneaking over our borders! Curse them! Curse them all!

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And for your last comment, if that were true, why would we have a huge immigration problem?  Why would we be recieving all these illegal immigrants from Mexico, the Carribean, the Middle East, and other places?  Why would we have immigrants who die try to come over here if this country isn't worth it?

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Almost every western country has immigration problems. Italy for example has had similar cases with immigrant from Africa. Immigrants are trying to get from worse to better in one brief leap. I would say USA has probably the biggest problem of all western countries, but that

[kirottu]

I hear you.  :D  I know that we're not the only country with an immigration problem, I was just trying to counter KB's rediculous notion that Americans are the only ones who view our country as a beacon for freedom and democracy.  I realize we're not the only beacon, too, but we're definitely one of the biggest.  :D 

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Pfft. My "beacon of hope" is bigger than yours.

[Darth Flatus]

Where did the US gets its legislative structure?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Where did the US gets its legislative structure?

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From the back of a cereal packet ? "

[taks]

And the only ones to see the US as a beacon of freedom and democracy are some of its own citizens.

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spoken by somebody who thinks the government has a right to tell individual citizens how much their labor and/or any products they produce are worth.

 

you suddenly know what freedom is?

 

taks

[taks]

btw, ender, since when was george washington NOT the first US president? i'm curious, since he presided over the constitutional convention in 1787, and was then unanimously elected first president in 1789 immediately after the constitution was ratified. did you just re-write history?

 

taks

[metadigital]

1. Happy birthday USA.

2. Slavery is actually an ancient mechanism; read The Richest Man in Babylon (a good book for helping those who find saving pass

[Dark Moth]

3. @Mothman, let me introduce you to the French Revolution, I don't believe you've met. Remember the French? They were the ones that donated that big iron and copper statue in New York, with the torch.

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Really? Yes, I know that. And I know plenty about the French Revolution, thank you very much. Thank you, France.

 

Oh, and the last time I checked, the American Revolution ended way before the French Revolution.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Mothman

[Darth Flatus]

His point was that the inception of the USA was not "the spark that started it all". (started what exactly?)

The USA doesn't own the patent on republicanism or democracy (which is why i asked where did they get their legislative structure from?).

 

I'm not saying that all or indeed the average american believes this but i get the impression from speeches (made by politicians and media types) extolling the virtues of the United States that democracy is somehow an intrinsically american ideology. This reeks of arrogance and in my estimation implies ignorance of the rest of the world.

[taks]

it's because we're the only ones standing up for it worldwide. the brits and some of the coalition are still on board... but who knows.

 

taks

[Powerslave]

Greece won the EURO also on the 4th of July last year, let's celebrate to that too!

 

Ahem.

[mkreku]

it's because we're the only ones standing up for it worldwide.  the brits and some of the coalition are still on board... but who knows.

Yeah, you're right. If "standing up" means going to war. Otherwise I know plenty of nations who stand up for democracy and freedom without actually killing people with differing opinions and/or ideologies.

[Lucius]

it's because we're the only ones standing up for it worldwide.  the brits and some of the coalition are still on board... but who knows.

 

taks

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Right, right. Just look at Afghanistan, raving Warlords of the former Northern Alliance are now treating the population almost, if not as bad as the Taliban did. "

Meta: Well I've stated my opinion about this, running away is a defeat in my book.

[taks]

yeah, they say "let them be free!" then do nothing about it. that's pretty hypocritical, mkreku... even for you. brutally murdering your citizens is NOT a differing ideology. it is morally repugnant for ANYBODY to allow. enslaving women is NOT a differing ideology, mkreku, it is morally repugnant. you may think such things are OK because "well, it's not my country doing the enslavement" (yeah, i read that bit... they only took women... ), but in the end, we're one world and we need to keep in mind that in this world, some rights are given at birth, no matter where you were born.

 

as such, freedom comes with a cost.

 

taks

[213374U]

it's because we're the only ones standing up for imposing it worldwide.  the brits and some of the coalition are still on board... but who knows.

 

taks

Fix'd.

[taks]

Right, right. Just look at Afghanistan, raving Warlords of the former Northern Alliance are now treating the population almost, if not as bad as the Taliban did.  "

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as opposed to which other ideas? get real. nobody else even cared. there are issues and nobody said these things work themselves out over night. japan took over 7 years to settle down after the war. it ain't easy.

 

oh, and saying that "your solution sucks" as an attack on the argument is flawed. nobody could have known how things would (or have) turned out. maybe if some of the whining apologists had offered up real solutions, other than therapy for the jihadists, we'd have had more to work with.

 

taks

[Kaftan Barlast]

If you seriously believe thah the Iraq war was for anything else than securing american economic interests in the middle east then youre not living in reality... well, or youve got FoxNews as your only source of knowledge

[mkreku]

No no, it's because americans are willing to spend thousands of lives and billions of dollars to PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE!!1!

 

I'm always amazed that some people actually believe this. Especially when they live in the most capitalistic nation in the world. They, of all people, should know that a capitalist does NOT spend any money without interest.

 

Ps. "brutally murdering your citizens is NOT a differing ideology.". How many states have the capital punishment again..? A government brutally murdering its citizens? I guess it's easy to point fingers, huh.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Its also worth mentioning that the "hawks" did not give any time for other, alternative means to be planned before using force in a military invasion. It could have been done differently, but with the worlds only remaining superpower hellbent on war at any cost, it was the only outcome.

[213374U]

That's just not true.

[metadigital]

3. @Mothman, let me introduce you to the French Revolution, I don't believe you've met. Remember the French? They were the ones that donated that big iron and copper statue in New York, with the torch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? Yes, I know that. And I know plenty about the French Revolution, thank you very much. Thank you, France.

 

Oh, and the last time I checked, the American Revolution ended way before the French Revolution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was only about a three months, technically (July versus April, 1789). But let's talk about the spirit of your point, not the letter, shall we?

 

It would more accurate to say that England begat modern democracy. (Leaving aside the Icelandic Go