Enough with the Darth Vader and TIE Fighter spam! This is about Sidious and Mace Windu, not them!

Alright, who would win in a TIE Fighter dog fight; Windu or Sidious.

Who would win out of a duel between The Executor and Windu all by his bad self..

I prefer to just use the X-Wing/TIE Fighter video games that indicate that the TIE Advanced (which is what Vader was flying...well, a prototype of it) has a hyperdrive on it :D

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Didnt have a hyperdrive at first although they did copy the wing designs.You can see the design in the Jedi StarFighter in EPIII.The hyperdrive was a later addition and part of the game plot if I recall.

Enough with the Darth Vader and TIE Fighter spam! This is about Sidious and Mace Windu, not them!

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I don't think so.

 

This thread is more about the "OMGOMG I'm right just cuz people...check out this proof...oh wait...my source has stuff that contradicts me??? Whutevah lalalalalalalala not listening cuz i'm soooo rite w3rd !!!!!ooneoneleven1" people versus the "look look look, I have something that indicates I might be right....what...helllo helllllllllllllllllloooooooo...look at this...no don't aflkja ARGH <bangs head on wall> type discussion.

 

 

Since the other camp is so adamant about proof that Palpatine was holding back, when I tried to address the question and asked if there was any suitable proof that indicated that he wasn't holding back, I was ignored.

 

Some discussion.

 

 

 

As for the TIE.....I can't remember if it was story related or not. I remember they suddenly came out and it was like "Whoa! Hyperspace TIEs!" But I don't know anywhere that says the x1 did or did not have hyperdrive. I assume that because it's a prototype, it would be similar. But of course it could be a concept TIE and the TIE Advanced were the eventual production TIEs

What proof is there that Palpatine is NOT faking the fight?

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What proof is there that Palpatine IS faking the fight?

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Considering I asked my question for all those that were claiming for an answer to your question...I fail to see why you asked it.

 

As for your question. There is none. But don't go pulling a creationist trick of claiming lack of proof for my point is support for your point. Just as there's no actual, concrete proof for Palpatine faking the fight, there is zerio proof that he isn't faking the fight. It is actually better this way as it would be stupid it was stated in the book that 'Palpatine has truly met his match....had he not summoned all of his skill, he would have died...he clearly is not faking it in this fight' or something similar.

Exactly. There is no conclusive proof either way, therefore a statement like "What proof is/isn't there" by itself will not add weight to a perspective because the other perspective could pull the same statement which introduces doubt using the same logic.

 

So I answered your question, now answer mine.

 

What proof is there that Palpatine is not faking the fight?

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Read above. There is none either way and it is not a valid way of illustrating a point either way.

Evil never wins in Star Wars. Mace would have won.

Evil never wins in Star Wars.  Mace would have won.

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That's got to be the most feeble argument in the whole thread. And that says a lot considering the average weight of the reasons used in the thread.

the only way that we'll know this is if we get George Lucas in here and have him tell us, Vader's Tie Fighter had to have a hyperdrive because if it didn't he wouldn't have survived the aftermath of Yavin.

I admire your blindness to obvious facts we can see in ROTS movie and read in novelization. There was no faking from Palps side and discussion is over.

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Really? Here's the excerpt from the novel, right at the point when Palps was firing lightning at Mace and had him in trouble.

 

Pg. 334 of the hardcover Revenge of the Sith novelization:

 

    "Help me!  I can't hold on any longer!"  The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh.  His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred.  "He is killing me, Anakin!  Please, Anaahhh..."

    Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone.  "Anakin, he's too strong for me...."

    "Ahhh..." Palpatine's roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of dispair.

    The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

 

If you will notice, Palpatine was on the brink of destroying Mace, but with Mace pleading with Anakin for help, Palpatine figured Anakin might side with Mace so he goes DIRECTLY from dominating Mace to the point Mace says "Anakin, he's too strong for me...", to becoming that feeble old man.

 

So Nurb, I'd say the novelization does make it quite obvious that Palpatine "gave up" in his fight because he didn't want to risk having Anakin side with Mace at that moment. That excerpt, atleast, definitely points to it.

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palpatine was the one pleading for help, not mace windu.

Palpatine was on the floor, pleading like a dog. Major ownage there.

ok but exactly why was he pleading? and to whom? The ansere will give a clue as to the motivation for the "pleading". Yes, it could have been genuine fear but given that we know his aim at that point it just lends more credence to the theory that he was hamming it up.

My opinion there is no way in hell Mace could have beaten Sidious. If he could have he would have. He didn't so therefore he couldn't. Blah Blah

I know you guys understand that Sidious needed Anakin to take that next step. Once he got Anakin to betray the Jedi, he knew that there was no turning back. It was all a plan, Mace was cannon fodder. Yoda on the other hand. I don't know what happened there. If Yoda couldn't beat him, no one could IMO.

In the novelisation there is anice little explanation as to why Yoda ran away.

What did it say?

What did it say?

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He knew the Jedi made an error in their teachings and that their current teachings wouldn't allow them to defeat a Sith Lord (paraphrasing a bit). So he felt it best to retreat for another day so that he could help train a Jedi who is better able to defeat the Sith (Luke Skywalker).

Thanx, I wonder what they taught Luke that was so different?

 

Insert jokes here----->

Thanx, I wonder what they taught Luke that was so different?

 

Insert jokes here----->

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It probably didn't come across as such in the movies, since Luke seemed kinda whiny and not very good at fighting, but I think Yoda's thinking was the Jedi had to be more..."warrior" like....and not so passive, thus they trained Luke to be more warrior than guardian of peace.

Exactly.  There is no conclusive proof either way, therefore a statement like "What proof is/isn't there" by itself will not add weight to a perspective because the other perspective could pull the same statement which introduces doubt using the same logic.

 

So I answered your question, now answer mine.

 

What proof is there that Palpatine is not faking the fight?

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Read above. There is none either way and it is not a valid way of illustrating a point either way.

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Actually that was exactly my point, and why I asked that question. I did understand that there was none either way.

 

The reason why I asked it was because the other camp was hellbent on requiring proof, when there isn't any for either case.

 

 

 

Evil never wins in Star Wars. Mace would have won.

 

Evil will always win because good is dumb!

 

palpatine was the one pleading for help, not mace windu.

 

Pleading for help does not mean he was or was not holding back. I'd be more inclined to think that Mace's cry for help was more sincere, given he'd have no reason to hold back.

 

 

It probably didn't come across as such in the movies, since Luke seemed kinda whiny and not very good at fighting, but I think Yoda's thinking was the Jedi had to be more..."warrior" like....and not so passive, thus they trained Luke to be more warrior than guardian of peace.

 

I dunno....in Return of the Jedi Luke seems quite capable ^_^

I dunno....in Return of the Jedi Luke seems quite capable ^_^

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Except when Palpatine was tickling him to death with lightning bolts. "

 

And yeah, I got your point as well. I like how those in favor of Mace winning keep screaming "proof please!" when someone says Palps was faking, but yet they disregard or ignore giving their own indisputable proof to back their argument.

Neither side has real proof. Maybe the novel writer had Windu calling for help, but he didn't appear that way in the movie. They contradict in my eyes and the movie wins in canonical math.

 

Luke might have fared better against Emperor's force lightning had he not thrown away his saber, but I don't have much faith in Luke's abilities. Hey, maybe he let Palpy zap him on purpose so Vader would turn back from the dark side! Prove that it's not so :D

Hey, maybe he let Palpy zap him on purpose so Vader would turn back from the dark side! Prove that it's not so :D

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eh palp was just trying to kill luke with his electric bill But I think the point is moot because little mr conflicted did join the battle...

I dunno....in Return of the Jedi Luke seems quite capable ^_^

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Except when Palpatine was tickling him to death with lightning bolts. "

 

And yeah, I got your point as well. I like how those in favor of Mace winning keep screaming "proof please!" when someone says Palps was faking, but yet they disregard or ignore giving their own indisputable proof to back their argument.

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Mace fanboys/girls.

I dunno....in Return of the Jedi Luke seems quite capable ^_^

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Except when Palpatine was tickling him to death with lightning bolts. "

 

And yeah, I got your point as well. I like how those in favor of Mace winning keep screaming "proof please!" when someone says Palps was faking, but yet they disregard or ignore giving their own indisputable proof to back their argument.

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Mace fanboys/girls.

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would you prefer Gabrielle fanboys?